Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 06:04, Tobias Knerr wrote: > Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > > Did you read the website? Here's what it says: "Adhere to the Google > > Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street > > Map..". > > The context is important. > > Website content: > > It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still > > get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to > > say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace > > data into Open Street Map.." > > So it's in quotation marks and it isn't at all presented as the author's > personal statement, it's what people sending "hate-mail" want him to > say. Putting that advice in the mouths of senders of hate-mail certainly > isn't what you do if you want to honestly want to warn people, is it? > > To the same effect, he could have written "just ignore the naggers with > their legalities and trace away". It's only insignificantly more subtle > the way he phrases it. > Thank you for bringing back the context Tobias. More context: The message is also at the bottom of the page, after scrolling past the instructions on how to add it to JOSM. At the top of the page he mentions OSM. If he was nice (unlike hate mail senders) then he could write one sentence: Although this works with OSM software it should not be uploaded to the OSM database. That would certainly avoid me sending him hate mail (not that I actually would) and think that he respected OSM so I'd give him (and his work) more respect. -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
2010/3/30 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason : > I'm not breaking Google's TOS. Just because I give you hammer that > make me responsible for you bludgeoning someone to death with it. well, give a kid a gun and you ARE responsible (at least partially) for what happens. There's to decide whether distributing instructions and code for tracing from Googlemaps into OSM (JOSM is still mostly an OSM-app) is more like a hammer or more like a gun ;-) IMHO he could at least put the disclaimer on top of the page. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 13:04, Tobias Knerr wrote: > To the same effect, he could have written "just ignore the naggers with > their legalities and trace away". It's only insignificantly more subtle > the way he phrases it. Could have should have. Let's not forget the context here. Someone has written a useful piece of software *in his free time* for *free* which you and others to use *if you want to*, if not: don't use it. If he doesn't feel like plastering legal warnings over his webpage that's really really his business. I don't think anyone's in a position to feel self-justified in speculations about his intent. I don't mean to single you out but this sort of outlook is why he's getting hate E-Mail in the first place. Let us recall the ancient proverb: Life sucks, get a helmet. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
Hi, Tobias Knerr wrote: > So it's in quotation marks and it isn't at all presented as the author's > personal statement, it's what people sending "hate-mail" want him to > say. Putting that advice in the mouths of senders of hate-mail certainly > isn't what you do if you want to honestly want to warn people, is it? Are you trying to deny him his freedom of expression? Is he not allowed to speak his mind? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > Did you read the website? Here's what it says: "Adhere to the Google > Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street > Map..". The context is important. Website content: > It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still > get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to > say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace > data into Open Street Map.." So it's in quotation marks and it isn't at all presented as the author's personal statement, it's what people sending "hate-mail" want him to say. Putting that advice in the mouths of senders of hate-mail certainly isn't what you do if you want to honestly want to warn people, is it? To the same effect, he could have written "just ignore the naggers with their legalities and trace away". It's only insignificantly more subtle the way he phrases it. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 22:15, Someoneelse wrote: > Well - there may be some jurisdiction out there dumb enough to make a > violation of some Ts & Cs an infringement of some law or other. > Unlikely, but possible, and dafter laws do get passed from time to time, > so "definitely not" is probably overstating it a tad. They tried it in the US after a girl committed suicide due to misuse of Facebook or similar sites... I think the ruling has since been repealed... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 22:10, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > people do. And if they send that guy a C&D he'll be responsible of > ceasing to distribute the tiles as well as repair damage caused (or at He's not distributing a program that breaks their TOS since he's not directly doing anything, as others have pointed you have to download the software and use it yourself to break google ToS... > least stop damage happening) to Google if they say so, which may > include informing all people who downloaded the tiles, all people who > downloaded OSM data created by tracing over them, then their People shouldn't be uploading data from sources it's not allowed to, just like you shouldn't shoot people, but it's legal in a lot of places to trade firearms, just because you buy a gun doesn't mean you can do what you like with it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 22:16, John Smith wrote: > People shouldn't be uploading data from sources it's not allowed to, They shouldn't upload data they don't have permission to upload... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
Ian Dees wrote: > We need to be careful about our words. Tracing data into OSM from any > source could be a violation of the terms of use of the service, but it > is definitely not illegal. Well - there may be some jurisdiction out there dumb enough to make a violation of some Ts & Cs an infringement of some law or other. Unlikely, but possible, and dafter laws do get passed from time to time, so "definitely not" is probably overstating it a tad. (sorry to play Captain Obvious) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 14:10, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > On 30 March 2010 13:27, John Smith wrote: >> That doesn't make something illegal and google are free to send him a >> C&D if they feel up to it, but that's civil contract law. > > Ok, so it's not automatically a crime but it's still fair to say it > isn't legal if you take obeying the TOS as a requirement which most > people do. And if they send that guy a C&D he'll be responsible of > ceasing to distribute the tiles as well as repair damage caused (or at > least stop damage happening) to Google if they say so, which may > include informing all people who downloaded the tiles, all people who > downloaded OSM data created by tracing over them, then their > customers, etc etc., and if he can't do that then the court decides > what he has to do. Oops, he's not redistributing the tiles, I misunderstood GoogleWMS as an actual WMS he hosts... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 21:53, simone gadenz wrote: > I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was > violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In > any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a > problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this > situation to avoid future lawsuits? Some think copying names from a street directory might be harmful to OSM, but because copyright and other laws around the world aren't harmonised there is no black and white answer to this, nor will there ever be, what is legal or allowed now may not in a year from now. Some people however take a very hard line on what may cause harm to OSM, for example I was told I wasn't able to use google maps for navigation purposes while collecting GPS traces, but this makes as much sense as anyone using a street directory for navigation is violating copyright. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 13:27, John Smith wrote: > That doesn't make something illegal and google are free to send him a > C&D if they feel up to it, but that's civil contract law. Ok, so it's not automatically a crime but it's still fair to say it isn't legal if you take obeying the TOS as a requirement which most people do. And if they send that guy a C&D he'll be responsible of ceasing to distribute the tiles as well as repair damage caused (or at least stop damage happening) to Google if they say so, which may include informing all people who downloaded the tiles, all people who downloaded OSM data created by tracing over them, then their customers, etc etc., and if he can't do that then the court decides what he has to do. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:53, simone gadenz wrote: > I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was > violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In > any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a > problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this > situation to avoid future lawsuits? What "service"? It's a program that /you/ download to /your/ computer and run on your own. He's not breaking any law by providing you with this program. Just because some company writes a TOS that doesn't mean they can stop anyone writing programs that interface with their websites, but of course they're fully within their rights to stop anyone accessing them. I'm sure Google's TOS say something about automatic downloads. If I provide you with this program: #!/bin/sh while true; do wget "http://google.com/search?q=$RANDOM";; done I'm not breaking Google's TOS. Just because I give you hammer that make me responsible for you bludgeoning someone to death with it. As for how we should "cope with this situation" we should do what we've always done: Ask people nicely not to trace from proprietary maps and hope they don't. Ultimately that's all we can do. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:38, Gregory wrote: > I think the comment he has put about hate mail is really bad though, it > makes OSM out to be a bad project/community even though it created JOSM. > Would it really hurt him to put a notice about copyright to say check out > the Google license if you make data from the maps and it is not suitable to > upload to OSM. Did you read the website? Here's what it says: "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map..". ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this situation to avoid future lawsuits? On Mar 30, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Ian Dees wrote: > On Mar 30, 2010, at 6:08 AM, andrzej zaborowski > wrote: > >> On 30 March 2010 10:53, Gregory wrote: >>> He could keep the page and program up there but >>> should put warnings >> >> I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't >> google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside >> google's own api? >> > > We need to be careful about our words. Tracing data into OSM from any > source could be a violation of the terms of use of the service, but it > is definitely not illegal. The cops do not yet have the power to come > arrest you for a terms of use violation in any jurisdiction I know > about. The company could sue you or OSM (thus why we discourage it > strongly), but it's not illegal. > > I think a newbie coming to OSM that sees "it's illegal!!!" might be > put off by the potential for police action since. > > Of course as soon as I send this someone from Europe will tell me > their database/data collections law applies, but I don't think it > does. You're still creating a derivative work, not copying someone's > collection of data. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Mar 30, 2010, at 6:08 AM, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > On 30 March 2010 10:53, Gregory wrote: >> He could keep the page and program up there but >> should put warnings > > I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't > google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside > google's own api? > We need to be careful about our words. Tracing data into OSM from any source could be a violation of the terms of use of the service, but it is definitely not illegal. The cops do not yet have the power to come arrest you for a terms of use violation in any jurisdiction I know about. The company could sue you or OSM (thus why we discourage it strongly), but it's not illegal. I think a newbie coming to OSM that sees "it's illegal!!!" might be put off by the potential for police action since. Of course as soon as I send this someone from Europe will tell me their database/data collections law applies, but I don't think it does. You're still creating a derivative work, not copying someone's collection of data. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 21:08, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't As someone else pointed out, there is nothing illegal about the code, it might be against their terms and services to use it but that's contract law, not criminal law. > google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside > google's own api? That doesn't make something illegal and google are free to send him a C&D if they feel up to it, but that's civil contract law. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 10:53, Gregory wrote: > He could keep the page and program up there but > should put warnings I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside google's own api? Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 02:36, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > > Is it legal to? > > * Use it in JOSM: Yes > * Edit data based on it: Yes > * Upload it to the OSM servers: No > > JOSM has the capability to use any server you want (or none at all), > not all servers are run at *.openstreetmap.org. > I didn't think of that. I know one could save it as .osm and then feed it into a renderer or other converting script. > But really, don't send people hate mail just because they enable users > to do something non-free with OSM tools. I'm sure the FSF doesn't send > people who write non-free programs with Emacs hate mail :) > I think the comment he has put about hate mail is really bad though, it makes OSM out to be a bad project/community even though it created JOSM. Would it really hurt him to put a notice about copyright to say check out the Google license if you make data from the maps and it is not suitable to upload to OSM. Hmm, I suppose if you do click the "upload to OSM" button then you need a username & password, at which point you look at what OSM is (and I think a comment about acceptable data is given near registration?). I was feeling the button was too easy to use, because my password is saved and I never get prompted to have an account. -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
El 30/03/2010 11:36, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason escribió: > I'm sure the FSF doesn't send people who write non-free programs with > Emacs hate mail :) You should attend a lecture by Richard Stallman :-P -- Iván Sánchez Ortega ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 08:28, simone gadenz wrote: > I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps background for > OSM editing. Is it legal? > > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ Is it legal to? * Use it in JOSM: Yes * Edit data based on it: Yes * Upload it to the OSM servers: No I've used this extension with good results for producing derived work from Google Maps + OSM for my own use, of course I didn't upload it to OSM once I was done. JOSM has the capability to use any server you want (or none at all), not all servers are run at *.openstreetmap.org. As OSM becomes more popular more people are going to use the .osm format and editing tools built for OSM for non-OSM uses. It would be useful if we could accommodate these uses by e.g. making plugins like these part of the official JOSM plugin directory. Of course there would also have to be other changes like some way of having WMS layers register that they're unsuitable for being uploaded to OSM and a way of marking data as having been edited with some given WMS as a backdrop. But really, don't send people hate mail just because they enable users to do something non-free with OSM tools. I'm sure the FSF doesn't send people who write non-free programs with Emacs hate mail :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
simone gadenz wrote: > I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps > background for OSM editing. Is it legal? > > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ No. You must not use Google as a source for OSM. This would be a breach of Google's terms of use, it would taint OSM's data and it would expose OSM to liability. Please don't do it. As the Google Maps WMS Server's administrator himselfs says : "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map". ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
Definitely not. See the last note on the page: It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map.." Yet in his instructions he is clearly making the primary aim to use it in JOSM and trace information. He could keep the page and program up there but should put warnings (especially at the top of the page) to say it is for experimentation or personal(private) use and not to upload to the OSM servers. On 30 March 2010 01:28, simone gadenz wrote: > I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps background > for OSM editing. Is it legal? > > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ > > Cheers > > S > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
El 30/03/2010 10:28, simone gadenz escribió: > I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps > background for OSM editing. Is it legal? > > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ Scroll down and you'll find this piece of text: " It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map.." " That should answer your question. Cheers, -- Iván Sánchez Ortega ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
