Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Lester Caine]

NopMap wrote:

I noted that navit is currently missing from your list of options. I have
missed the last two years of development there, but I used to have it on my
smartphone before that as street navigation and I liked it a lot. You can
set up the routing speeds by street type in a configuration file and tweak
it until it matches your preferences. Naturally, I never tried it on UK
streets, but I would still be using it if the onboard navigation of the new
car didn't have such a great speech interface.:-)


I knew there was a reason I'd crossed it off ... it will not install on the 
tablet and it's not using the phones own keyboard but one where one has to find 
the letters in alphabetical order. Basically it was crossed off the list before 
even getting to test it's routing capability.


For those of you who haven't found it yet on Android ... Hacker's keyboard ... I 
am so used to the N900's navigation keys and also needed access to things like 
CTL, TAB and ESC when remote accessing the servers. Hacker's Keyboard gives that 
back and more important BOTH devices now work the same way :)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[NopMap]

Hi!


lsces wrote
> Basically - does anybody have a smartphone option that correctly and
> safely 
> handles UK motorways and trunk roads?

I noted that navit is currently missing from your list of options. I have
missed the last two years of development there, but I used to have it on my
smartphone before that as street navigation and I liked it a lot. You can
set up the routing speeds by street type in a configuration file and tweak
it until it matches your preferences. Naturally, I never tried it on UK
streets, but I would still be using it if the onboard navigation of the new
car didn't have such a great speech interface. :-)

bye, Nop




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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Jo]

It's what we're doing here in Belgium as well, but then there are very few
roads left where the default speed of 90km/h still applies...

Jo


2013/9/2 Lester Caine 

> SomeoneElse wrote:
>
>> If the fix for this is to manually apply the national speed limit to every
>>> road, then OK, it's the first time anybody has suggested a fix and I'm
>>> willing
>>> to give it a try ...
>>>
>>
>> (I'll assume that's not an entirely serious suggestion - the last time
>> someone
>> tried it it was very nearly bonfires and pitchforks all round!)
>>
>
> It would seem Andy that the 'rules' changed while we were not looking. It
> seems now that we should be tagging all roads :(
>
> "For roads signed using the national non-numeric speed limits signs it is
> generally recommended that one also adds GB:motorway, GB:nsl_dual or
> GB:nsl_single to source:maxspeed=*."
>
> I certainly don't agree with that. It will add a vast raft of extra tags
> to the road way data since they will have to be added to every link road
> and bridge section. JUST tagging the variations still in my book the way to
> do this and the router algorithms apply the correct speeds based on the
> type of vehicle.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Lester Caine]

SomeoneElse wrote:

If the fix for this is to manually apply the national speed limit to every
road, then OK, it's the first time anybody has suggested a fix and I'm willing
to give it a try ...


(I'll assume that's not an entirely serious suggestion - the last time someone
tried it it was very nearly bonfires and pitchforks all round!)


It would seem Andy that the 'rules' changed while we were not looking. It seems 
now that we should be tagging all roads :(


"For roads signed using the national non-numeric speed limits signs it is 
generally recommended that one also adds GB:motorway, GB:nsl_dual or 
GB:nsl_single to source:maxspeed=*."


I certainly don't agree with that. It will add a vast raft of extra tags to the 
road way data since they will have to be added to every link road and bridge 
section. JUST tagging the variations still in my book the way to do this and the 
router algorithms apply the correct speeds based on the type of vehicle.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/9/2 Janko Mihelić 

> 2013/9/2 Lester Caine :
>
> > If the fix for this is to manually apply the national speed limit to
> every
> > road, then OK, it's the first time anybody has suggested a fix and I'm
> > willing to give it a try ...
>
> It's useful to give the source of the maxspeed. So if you have a sign,
> just put source:maxspeed=sign. If there is no sign, and source is the law,
> put source:maxspeed=uk:urban for maximum speed in urban areas, and
> source:maxspeed=uk:rural for rural areas. I don't know the laws in the UK.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed
>
> That's the way we in Croatia mark maxspeed. That way if the default
> maxspeed changes, it will be possible to change it automatically.
>


+1
we're also doing it like this in Italy, as this would permit to
automatically change the implicit maxspeed in case the default speed limit
would be changed...

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Lester Caine]

Janko Mihelić wrote:

2013/9/2 Lester Caine mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk>>:
 > If the fix for this is to manually apply the national speed limit to every
 > road, then OK, it's the first time anybody has suggested a fix and I'm
 > willing to give it a try ...

It's useful to give the source of the maxspeed. So if you have a sign, just put
source:maxspeed=sign. If there is no sign, and source is the law, put
source:maxspeed=uk:urban for maximum speed in urban areas, and
source:maxspeed=uk:rural for rural areas. I don't know the laws in the UK.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed

That's the way we in Croatia mark maxspeed. That way if the default maxspeed
changes, it will be possible to change it automatically.


The real point here Janko is there was a very major stop put to tagging ALL 
'national speed limit' roads with tags as such. Short term I've added them 
locally, but they will need to be removed to comply with the tagging guidelines 
for the UK! It's the routing algorithms that need to be fixed.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Janko Mihelić]

2013/9/2 Lester Caine :
> If the fix for this is to manually apply the national speed limit to every
> road, then OK, it's the first time anybody has suggested a fix and I'm
> willing to give it a try ...

It's useful to give the source of the maxspeed. So if you have a sign, just
put source:maxspeed=sign. If there is no sign, and source is the law, put
source:maxspeed=uk:urban for maximum speed in urban areas, and
source:maxspeed=uk:rural for rural areas. I don't know the laws in the UK.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed

That's the way we in Croatia mark maxspeed. That way if the default
maxspeed changes, it will be possible to change it automatically.

Janko
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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[SomeoneElse]

Lester Caine wrote:


If the fix for this is to manually apply the national speed limit to 
every road, then OK, it's the first time anybody has suggested a fix 
and I'm willing to give it a try ...


(I'll assume that's not an entirely serious suggestion - the last time 
someone tried it it was very nearly bonfires and pitchforks all round!)


Perhaps you could try running the online routers that you're having 
problems with locally with bodged versions of UK OSM data to see what 
helps and what doesn't, and feed that back to the projects concerned?


I've not had any of these sorts of issues.  I use a couple of fairly old 
Garmins (an eTrex and a Nuvi).  The data used by mkgmap for the eTrex 
has had tracks explictly marked as private removed (and a few other 
bodges to help identify public footpaths); the data for the Nuvi has had 
all non-road highways removed to speed up route calculations.  Both work 
pretty well; I've not seen an "incorrect directions at junctions" problem.


Both might get confused with long routes; If I tried to navigate from 
Derbyshire to somewhere in Devon I might be waiting a while for a route, 
but given that I can head to the M5 while it's doing that, it's really 
not a problem.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Lester Caine]

Janko Mihelić wrote:

Well, the A46 and A44 are trunk roads, and the Hinton road is an
unclassified road. Of course the router is going to think it's much
faster to go by trunk road. If you want to fix that, you'll have to
put in the maxspeed tags. Then the router will have enough information
to choose the better path.


If the fix for this is to manually apply the national speed limit to every road, 
then OK, it's the first time anybody has suggested a fix and I'm willing to give 
it a try ...
As it turns out, the 40MPH limit on the A44 was not actually recorded. I don't 
go that way often so I'd missed that one.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Janko Mihelić]

Well, the A46 and A44 are trunk roads, and the Hinton road is an
unclassified road. Of course the router is going to think it's much
faster to go by trunk road. If you want to fix that, you'll have to
put in the maxspeed tags. Then the router will have enough information
to choose the better path.

Janko

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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Lester Caine]

Greg Troxel wrote:


Lester Caine  writes:


Lester Caine wrote:

Basically - does anybody have a smartphone option that correctly and safely
handles UK motorways and trunk roads?


Well I'm seeing some feedback off-list, and there have been a few
steps forward, but The one thing I have finally established is that
off the 5 routing engines so far tested, none can handle the roads in
the Cotswolds. I have yet to get some confirmation, but Yours, OSRM,
OSMAnd, MapQuest and CloudMade all fail to pick up tertiary routes
unless one is actually ON the road in question? As a result they make
detours via other roads to get around those sections and add ten's of
minutes to a journey. The biggest so far is a 10 mile diversion north,
but a couple of miles are added to journey south, via four more
roundabouts.


I find this all surprising, and wonder what's wrong.   I have OSM data
in my garmin 50 (with mkgmap) and (in the US, which is a different place
with different data, etc.) it works fine.


When I get some spare time I'll get back into the OSRM code to see what is 
happening. Interestingly Bing makes the same mistake but Google is finally 
picking up the correct route!


https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=WR12+7EP&daddr=Ashchurch,+Gloucestershire+GL20,+UK&hl=en&geocode=%3BCc8Qtwf2VNEBFU9sGQMdYeLf_yktTuFVeB1xSDECJZbUk_aHhA&aq=0&oq=wr12+7ep&sll=51.997775,-2.104735&sspn=0.010741,0.026672&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&ie=UTF8&t=m&z=12

Everything else goes via Wickhamford. From the M40 north of here we get taken 
over to Alcester then down the A46 to Evesham before coming back over. Rather 
than down the B4632 ... As long as I move off the 'A' roads it then picks up the 
B4632 ( the original A46 ;) )


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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Greg Troxel]

Lester Caine  writes:

> Lester Caine wrote:
>> Basically - does anybody have a smartphone option that correctly and safely
>> handles UK motorways and trunk roads?
>
> Well I'm seeing some feedback off-list, and there have been a few
> steps forward, but The one thing I have finally established is that
> off the 5 routing engines so far tested, none can handle the roads in
> the Cotswolds. I have yet to get some confirmation, but Yours, OSRM,
> OSMAnd, MapQuest and CloudMade all fail to pick up tertiary routes
> unless one is actually ON the road in question? As a result they make
> detours via other roads to get around those sections and add ten's of
> minutes to a journey. The biggest so far is a 10 mile diversion north,
> but a couple of miles are added to journey south, via four more
> roundabouts.

I find this all surprising, and wonder what's wrong.   I have OSM data
in my garmin 50 (with mkgmap) and (in the US, which is a different place
with different data, etc.) it works fine.


pgpzi1xtOLRXo.pgp
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Re: [OSM-talk] Living with 'improvements'

[Lester Caine]

Lester Caine wrote:

Basically - does anybody have a smartphone option that correctly and safely
handles UK motorways and trunk roads?


Well I'm seeing some feedback off-list, and there have been a few steps forward, 
but The one thing I have finally established is that off the 5 routing engines 
so far tested, none can handle the roads in the Cotswolds. I have yet to get 
some confirmation, but Yours, OSRM, OSMAnd, MapQuest and CloudMade all fail to 
pick up tertiary routes unless one is actually ON the road in question? As a 
result they make detours via other roads to get around those sections and add 
ten's of minutes to a journey. The biggest so far is a 10 mile diversion north, 
but a couple of miles are added to journey south, via four more roundabouts.


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