Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[cobaco]

On Tuesday 2008-09-02, Ed Loach wrote:
> Cobaco wrote:
> > nope, a decent email client is supposed to have to following:
> > 1) reply to sender -> reply to from adress (or contents of
> > reply-to header
> >   if present)
> > 2) reply to all -> reply to every adress present
> > 3) reply to list -> reply to value of list-post header
> >
> > problem with outlook is that it lacks reply-to-list AFAIK
> > (probably because
> > the built-in approximation of an email list in exchange
> > groupware is a
> > shared folder with 'discussion' items, not an actual list)
>
> Does all email list software insert a list-post header? 

well the header defined in least rfc-2369 and referred to in rfc-4021 (the 
first one of which is about a decade old). 

So it should be implemented by mailing list software by now, though I don't 
doubt that there's still software out there that doesn't.
-- 
Cheers, Cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Ed Loach]

Cobaco wrote:

> nope, a decent email client is supposed to have to following:
> 1) reply to sender -> reply to from adress (or contents of
> reply-to header
>   if present)
> 2) reply to all -> reply to every adress present
> 3) reply to list -> reply to value of list-post header
> 
> problem with outlook is that it lacks reply-to-list AFAIK
> (probably because
> the built-in approximation of an email list in exchange
> groupware is a
> shared folder with 'discussion' items, not an actual list)

Does all email list software insert a list-post header? I'm on a
couple hosted with LSoft and a load with Yahoo and none of them seem
to, although that may be because they are all configured with the
Reply-To to be the list address already (as, I note, does
OSM-newbies). I ask as I was considering looking into writing an
add-in for the "reply to list" option for Outlook 2007 (which I
use), but if it will only work on the few lists I subscribe to
related to OSM (other than the Newbies one) then I'm not sure it is
worth the effort. I'd rather learn Perl and try and get the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] client to work more reliably on Vista .

Not that I'm too bothered, as long as I remember to check "To"
before clicking "Send" (this reply almost went to cobaco only).

Ed



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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[cobaco]

On Monday 2008-09-01, Christopher Woods wrote:
> > I guess you are not aware of the "reply all" button in
> > thunderbird which does send to the mailing list, so it's only
> > logical that "reply" does not send to the ML.
> >
> > Yes, "reply all" does send a copy directly to the author, but
> > mailman is intelligent enough so you can tell it not to send
> > dupes to people addressed directly (unless addressed by BCC,
> > in which case there is no way to tell there was a dupe in the
> > first place)
>
> So for all us Outlook users, if we hit Reply-All (like I just did to
> reply to this), and my client inserts both Dirk's and Lance's addres into
> the To: dialog but includes talk@openstreetmap.org in the CC field...
> It's not a problem with the way the list is configured?

nope, a decent email client is supposed to have to following:
1) reply to sender -> reply to from adress (or contents of reply-to header
  if present)
2) reply to all -> reply to every adress present
3) reply to list -> reply to value of list-post header

problem with outlook is that it lacks reply-to-list AFAIK (probably because 
the built-in approximation of an email list in exchange groupware is a 
shared folder with 'discussion' items, not an actual list)
-- 
Cheers, Cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)



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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[cobaco]

On Sunday 2008-08-31, leblatt wrote:
> No big deal, but when I hit < reply > on a talk@openstreetmap.org
> message, it replies to the message originator, not the list. I have to
> hit "reply all", and remove the originator.

which is why most email software has a reply-to-list function

> On the French ML, I just have to hit "reply", as in most MLs. I use
> outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ?

sorta, outlook is designed as a groupware client for exchange. As a pure 
mail client it majorly sucks, even outlook express does way better for that 
use case.
-- 
Cheers, Cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)



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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Sascha Silbe]

On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 09:23:13AM +0200, vegard wrote:


And for the only semi-technical argument that you break something that
can't be repaired: I have *never* ever placed a reply-to to something
other than my from-adress, and expected it to work, without *also*
stating explicitly at the end of the mail.
I always do for mailing lists. The subscription address will filter out 
everything not coming from the list (because I did get way too much SPAM 
to my subscription addresses). For personal replies, I have a special 
address that gets rotated every 3 months so the SPAM level is bearable. 
That's the address in the Reply-To header and there's absolutely no need 
to add it to every mail body - it's already there in the headers and 
it's exactly what the header is designed for.

So just because _you_ don't use it, it doesn't mean _everybody_ doesn't.
OK, I'll shut up now. :)

CU Sascha

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[vegard]

On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 07:59:17AM +0100, Shaun McDonald wrote:
> Take a look at
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> and stop bickering about the way you have to reply to the mailing list.
> 

My mailer, mutt, has a List-reply that does *exactly* what I want, i.e.
it finds the talk@openstreetmap.org adress from List-Id or such.

But, this isn't really the point: I'm *still* in favour of adding
reply-to to the list. It might be technical wrong, but: Getting outlook
and other proprietary mailers to behave is a lost battle, there are
fights more worthwhile to fight :)

Such as the fight for free map-data ;-)

So even though it doesn't bother me personally, the way it is no, I say
that the above document is outdated - an email-list (especially one like
talk) *is* a forum, and replys should per default go to the list. Anyone
not wanting to send to the list, will have the info to do that anyways.

And for the only semi-technical argument that you break something that
can't be repaired: I have *never* ever placed a reply-to to something
other than my from-adress, and expected it to work, without *also*
stating explicitly at the end of the mail.

And I rather make the from-header be the adress I want replys to, if I want
to do it permanently.

So I say: Let's be pragmatic and do what most people feel is the most
logical thing. And most people will *not* have sensible mailers.

-- 
- Vegard Engen, member of the first RFC1149 implementation team.

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 02-Sep-08, at 12:29 PM, Shaun McDonald wrote:

>> This thread is going nowhere, so let's just end it. You don't get my
>> point and I don't agree with your "solution".
>
>
> Take a look at
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> and stop bickering about the way you have to reply to the mailing  
> list.

http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.mhtml

nobody from either side is going to give in - so it is pointless to  
debate this


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/





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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Shaun McDonald]

On 2 Sep 2008, at 00:32, Sascha Silbe wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 12:58:48AM +0200, bvh wrote:
>
>> Well, and it breaks my expectation of what reply means in the  
>> context of
>> a public discussion. Should you have different expectations, see the
>> documentation of your mail client (hint : ignore_list_reply_to)
> This thread is going nowhere, so let's just end it. You don't get my  
> point and I don't agree with your "solution".


Take a look at
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
and stop bickering about the way you have to reply to the mailing list.

Shaun


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Sascha Silbe]

On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 12:58:48AM +0200, bvh wrote:

Well, and it breaks my expectation of what reply means in the context 
of

a public discussion. Should you have different expectations, see the
documentation of your mail client (hint : ignore_list_reply_to)
This thread is going nowhere, so let's just end it. You don't get my 
point and I don't agree with your "solution".


CU Sascha

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[bvh]

On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 01:06:27AM +0200, Sascha Silbe wrote:
> It's more than "not strictly correct": It's plain broken. It breaks my  
> "reply-to-author" function. Everytime I want to use it, I have to  
> manually fix the recipients.

Well, and it breaks my expectation of what reply means in the context of
a public discussion. Should you have different expectations, see the
documentation of your mail client (hint : ignore_list_reply_to)

cu bart

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Stephen Hope]

2008/9/2 Sascha Silbe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your MUA vendor.
> The buttons you're currently using are "reply" (with an implied "to author")
> and "reply to all", not "reply (default)" and "reply (alternative)".
> The only thing OSM can do is to trick your MUA into believing the "reply to
> author" function should reply to the list instead. And note the last word I
> used: _instead_. It doesn't work as expected anymore, rendering the expected
> function unavailable.

But this is where the problem is.  You did not send me this email, the list did.

Reply does not imply "send to author" it implies "send to who sent me
the message".  If I forward an email to someone, a reply comes to me,
not the original author. If the list forwards an email to someone, the
expectation is therefore created that a reply would go back to the
list. The fact that lists work differently in the background is not
obvious.

An OSM thread is supposed to be creating a group conversation.
Setting it up so the default way of replying breaks threads away from
the list into private conversations might work well for a advertising
list, but is strange for a list of this type.

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Sascha Silbe]

On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 08:50:46PM +0100, Christopher Woods wrote:

So for lists such as the BBC Backstage Majordomo list (which used to 
behave
in the way this list currently does, but now puts in the appropriate 
list
address when you hit Reply), are you saying that they've in fact 
bodged the

list's setup and it's not strictly correct?
It's more than "not strictly correct": It's plain broken. It breaks my 
"reply-to-author" function. Everytime I want to use it, I have to 
manually fix the recipients.


CU Sascha

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Matt Williams]

On Monday 01 September 2008 20:57:59 Matt Williams wrote:
> On Monday 01 September 2008 19:07:13 Norbert Wenzel wrote:
> > Lance Dyas wrote:
> > > [...] The direct emails arent marked as
> > > coming through the list and are likely to end up in
> > > my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked.
> >
> > Well they are marked. For mailing lists like OSM I do not filter the
> > email address but the subject. The "[OSM-talk]" part, stays in the
> > subject, even if this has been a direct reply to your message. They are
> > even correctly positioned in the thread in Thundbird here.
> >
> > So since everything which comes through the list has the [OSM] part in
> > the subject and every reply which is sent directly to you has it either,
> > I'd just change my filter from email address to subject and everythings
> > as you like it.
>
> Or just filter on the email header "List-Id"
> containing "". I believe a header like this is set
> for all mailman lists. An email client like KMail will do this easily
> (right click on a message and click 'create filter'->'filter on mailing
> list...'). This also helps avoid problems where mails are cross-posted
> between lists since you can sometimes end up with the subject beginning
> with "[OSM-talk] [OSM-dev]"
>
> Incidentally, in KMail, simply clicking reply will send to
> talk@openstreetmap.org though it does also have a 'reply to mailing list'
> button for the lists where that doesn't work.

It was brought to my attention that my previous email had the Reply-To field 
set to my email address explicitly which (in KMail's case) overrode the 
ability for simply clicking on 'Reply' to reply to the list. However, for an 
email without the Reply-To field set, 'Reply' sends it to the list. This 
simply further shows that the hugely differing behaviour between mail client 
makes this a trick problem to solve.

Regards,
Matt

(This email should not have the Reply-To field set)


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Lance Dyas]

vegard wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 09:05:56PM +0200, Sascha Silbe wrote:
>   
>> On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 01:39:33PM -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> The default responder  to public conversation venues
>>> needs to be to just that ...
>>>   
>> There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your MUA 
>> vendor. The buttons you're currently using are "reply" (with an implied 
>> "to author") and "reply to all", not "reply (default)" and "reply 
>> (alternative)".
>> 
>
> Actually, yes and no.
>
> the mailing-list *could* add a reply-to header, to the list-adress. It's
> not a fool-proof method (what if the user also adds one?), but it makes an
> effort, at least, to tell the users that the reply-to should go to the
> list.
>   
This works great actually didnt realize that the header wasnt there... 
sure enough most of my
lists have a reply to header/go figure.. the odd man out are not more 
technically correct they are just
inconvenient on purpose and claiming to be more correct.
 

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Matt Williams]

On Monday 01 September 2008 19:07:13 Norbert Wenzel wrote:
> Lance Dyas wrote:
> > [...] The direct emails arent marked as
> > coming through the list and are likely to end up in
> > my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked.
>
> Well they are marked. For mailing lists like OSM I do not filter the
> email address but the subject. The "[OSM-talk]" part, stays in the
> subject, even if this has been a direct reply to your message. They are
> even correctly positioned in the thread in Thundbird here.
>
> So since everything which comes through the list has the [OSM] part in
> the subject and every reply which is sent directly to you has it either,
> I'd just change my filter from email address to subject and everythings
> as you like it.

Or just filter on the email header "List-Id" 
containing "". I believe a header like this is set 
for all mailman lists. An email client like KMail will do this easily (right 
click on a message and click 'create filter'->'filter on mailing list...'). 
This also helps avoid problems where mails are cross-posted between lists 
since you can sometimes end up with the subject beginning with "[OSM-talk] 
[OSM-dev]"

Incidentally, in KMail, simply clicking reply will send to 
talk@openstreetmap.org though it does also have a 'reply to mailing list' 
button for the lists where that doesn't work.

Regards,
Matt Williams


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Christopher Woods]

> > The default responder  to public conversation venues needs to be to 
> > just that ...
> There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your 
> MUA vendor. The buttons you're currently using are "reply" 
> (with an implied "to author") and "reply to all", not "reply 
> (default)" and "reply (alternative)".
> The only thing OSM can do is to trick your MUA into believing 
> the "reply to author" function should reply to the list 
> instead. And note the last word I used: _instead_. It doesn't 
> work as expected anymore, rendering the expected function unavailable.
> Please go bothering Microsoft (or Mozilla, or whatever your MUA vendor
> is) about it, not the list admins. They'd get beaten by "the 
> other side" 
> as soon as they'd change the behaviour, since this breaks how 
> any sane MUA works.


So for lists such as the BBC Backstage Majordomo list (which used to behave
in the way this list currently does, but now puts in the appropriate list
address when you hit Reply), are you saying that they've in fact bodged the
list's setup and it's not strictly correct?


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Christopher Woods]

> And have you been convinced sending the author two 
> messages...makes sense? or that the default behavior is a 
> private response to a public conversation...
> 
>  I have even found direct emails quite close to rude.(mostly 
> when the responder actually was rude) the default reply  
> should simply target the list ... The direct emails arent 
> marked as coming through the list and are likely to end up in 
> my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked.
> 
> I am in my forties and preger to learn new tricks that make 
> sense and are generally useful.. fighting with my mail client 
> to avoid double sending to folks isnt one of them.

I don't necessarily agree on a personal level, but there's no use fighting
the current when it's far stronger than you are individually. I've learnt
that the hard way on other lists :(

I'm in agreement with you... List emails should solely come from the list,
not from individuals who are responding to a conversation you've previously
taken part in. But, while I prefer to reply solely to the list's main
address, if the default reply method for this list is to respond to
individual correspondents and send the mail to the list address to deal with
the other subscribers, then I suppose all I can do is shrug my shoulders and
get used to it.

On the odd occasion such as now, I'll manually edit the to: addresses and
only put in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list address (which I know seems a bit 
hypocritical
given how I've sent previous emails in this list today) but if that's how
the list admins have configured it then so be it. Pragmatism wins.

Why don't I just keep on modifying the to: addresses each time I send a
reply? Well, although it's a relatively minor operation, after a while it
becomes too much of a hassle and too frustrating to have to go and clean out
the recipient addresses every time. I'll just fire off a response and hit
Send. I'm on a lot of lists and I can foresee it becoming very tiresome
after a while - but as long as the other active participants don't mind
correspondence being conducted in this manner, then who am I to go against
the tide? 



(... Unless you want to form an uprising with me and take over the list in a
piratey style? (I already have September the 19th* block booked for
activities of this manner if you're interested.))


(*see yarr.org.uk)


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[vegard]

On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 09:05:56PM +0200, Sascha Silbe wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 01:39:33PM -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
> 
> >The default responder  to public conversation venues
> >needs to be to just that ...
> There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your MUA 
> vendor. The buttons you're currently using are "reply" (with an implied 
> "to author") and "reply to all", not "reply (default)" and "reply 
> (alternative)".

Actually, yes and no.

the mailing-list *could* add a reply-to header, to the list-adress. It's
not a fool-proof method (what if the user also adds one?), but it makes an
effort, at least, to tell the users that the reply-to should go to the
list.

Now, you'll find people agreeing and disagreeing with both methods. I
tend to be of the opinion that reply-to to the list is a good thing just
because that's the most intuitive to a beginner, and the most
experienced learn to cope with whatever is standard behavior.

-- 
- Vegard Engen, member of the first RFC1149 implementation team.

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Lance Dyas]

Lance Dyas wrote:
> Sascha Silbe wrote:
>   
>> On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 01:39:33PM -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> The default responder  to public conversation venues
>>> needs to be to just that ...
>>>   
>> There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your MUA 
>> vendor. The buttons you're currently using are "reply" (with an 
>> implied "to author") and "reply to all", not "reply (default)" and 
>> "reply (alternative)".
>> The only thing OSM can do is to trick your MUA into believing the 
>> "reply to author" function should reply to the list instead.
>> 
> You mean like every other list does? sure go with the flow
>   
>> And note the last word I used: _instead_. It doesn't work as expected 
>> anymore, 
>> 
> Where did you get this expectations from? not experience surely.
> youre expected behavior is based on your own implied  "to author"
> in other words you created your own expectations!!!
>  
>   
 suffice to say I disagree as sometimes going with the flow is 
appropriate, instead of being
"technically correct:"

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Lance Dyas]

Sascha Silbe wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 01:39:33PM -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:
>
>> The default responder  to public conversation venues
>> needs to be to just that ...
> There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your MUA 
> vendor. The buttons you're currently using are "reply" (with an 
> implied "to author") and "reply to all", not "reply (default)" and 
> "reply (alternative)".
> The only thing OSM can do is to trick your MUA into believing the 
> "reply to author" function should reply to the list instead.
You mean like every other list does? sure go with the flow
> And note the last word I used: _instead_. It doesn't work as expected 
> anymore, 
Where did you get this expectations from? not experience surely.
youre expected behavior is based on your own implied  "to author"
in other words you created your own expectations!!!
 


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Sascha Silbe]

On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 01:39:33PM -0500, Lance Dyas wrote:


The default responder  to public conversation venues
needs to be to just that ...
There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your MUA 
vendor. The buttons you're currently using are "reply" (with an implied 
"to author") and "reply to all", not "reply (default)" and "reply 
(alternative)".
The only thing OSM can do is to trick your MUA into believing the "reply 
to author" function should reply to the list instead. And note the last 
word I used: _instead_. It doesn't work as expected anymore, rendering 
the expected function unavailable.
Please go bothering Microsoft (or Mozilla, or whatever your MUA vendor 
is) about it, not the list admins. They'd get beaten by "the other side" 
as soon as they'd change the behaviour, since this breaks how any sane 
MUA works.


CU Sascha

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Lance Dyas]

Norbert Wenzel wrote:
> Lance Dyas wrote:
>> [...] The direct emails arent marked as coming through the list and 
>> are likely to end up in
>> my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked.
>>
> Well they are marked. For mailing lists like OSM I do not filter the 
> email address but the subject. The "[OSM-talk]" part, stays in the 
> subject, even if this has been a direct reply to your message. They 
> are even correctly positioned in the thread in Thundbird here.
Direct emails from google groups do not.. and come to think of it the 
demanding and rude emails I am recalling came through there too.
> So since everything which comes through the list has the [OSM] part in 
> the subject and every reply which is sent directly to you has it 
> either, I'd just change my filter from email address to subject and 
> everythings as you like it.
> regards,
> Norbert
>
> PS: I sent this mail only to the list, just to be sure you don't 
> consider this mail rude. ;-)
The extra effort to make it that way shouldnt be necessary and its 
perfectly
reasonable if somebody wants to send private feed back that they put in 
effort.
 
The default responder  to public conversation venues
needs to be to just that ... the public group this is normative behavior
by diverging in this way from how the dozen or more groups
 which I am on you pretty much garantee double posts or
just emails sent to the one person... dont think I am being invasive


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

['Sascha Silbe']

(Resend because of wrong sender address)

On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 05:35:17PM +0100, Christopher Woods wrote:

BTW - I hope you can even _read_ this mail because it's PGP/MIME 
signed).
Quite legible ;) Outlook copes far better than I think some give it 
credit

for!
I added that sentence because some of my customers using some corporate 
version of Outlook (!= Outlook Express, BTW) could _not_ read my mails. 
So there's a real-world problem here, not just bashing. And no, that 
wasn't it the 1990s but during the last few years. :-/


CU Sascha

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Norbert Wenzel]

Lance Dyas wrote:
[...] The direct emails arent marked as 
coming through the list and are likely to end up in

my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked.



Well they are marked. For mailing lists like OSM I do not filter the 
email address but the subject. The "[OSM-talk]" part, stays in the 
subject, even if this has been a direct reply to your message. They are 
even correctly positioned in the thread in Thundbird here.


So since everything which comes through the list has the [OSM] part in 
the subject and every reply which is sent directly to you has it either, 
I'd just change my filter from email address to subject and everythings 
as you like it.


regards,
Norbert

PS: I sent this mail only to the list, just to be sure you don't 
consider this mail rude. ;-)


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Lance Dyas]

Christopher Woods wrote:
> Your argument has merit sir!, and so I concede.
>  
> Nah, it's fair enough - I suppose it's just something new for me to 
> learn yet again. Looks a bit 'odd' to my eyes too, I prefer sending 
> to just the mailing list address because I think it looks neater :D 
> but as long as it works, and people aren't getting annoyed... I'm happy.
>  
> (I still find it hard to resist top posting thanks to my time spent 
> responding to countless work emails... I can't even use the old dog 
> new tricks excuse because I'm still in my twenties!)
And have you been convinced sending the author two messages...makes 
sense? or that the default behavior is a private response to a public 
conversation...

 I have even found direct emails quite close to rude.(mostly when the 
responder actually was rude) the default reply
 should simply target the list ... The direct emails arent marked as 
coming through the list and are likely to end up in
my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked.

I am in my forties and preger to learn new tricks that make sense and 
are generally useful.. fighting with my
mail client to avoid double sending to folks isnt one of them.

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Christopher Woods]

> BTW - I hope you can even 
> _read_ this mail because it's PGP/MIME signed).


Quite legible ;) Outlook copes far better than I think some give it credit
for! (and I'd like to see Thunderbird seamlessly sync with my WinMo
smartphone, the last time I tried it as an alternative it munged half of my
email repository and just 'broke' every time I tried to use it after that...
Gave up and went back to Old Faithful after that :)


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Christopher Woods]

Your argument has merit sir!, and so I concede.
 
Nah, it's fair enough - I suppose it's just something new for me to learn
yet again. Looks a bit 'odd' to my eyes too, I prefer sending to just the
mailing list address because I think it looks neater :D but as long as it
works, and people aren't getting annoyed... I'm happy.
 
(I still find it hard to resist top posting thanks to my time spent
responding to countless work emails... I can't even use the old dog new
tricks excuse because I'm still in my twenties!)
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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Sascha Silbe]

On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 04:56:22PM +0100, Christopher Woods wrote:


It seems a little 'unnatural' to me,
To me it's absolutely natural. If I want to reach (only) the author, I 
use "reply". When I want to reach everyone who wrote or got the mail, I 
use "reply to all". That's exactly what I would expect given the names 
of these functions.
Using reply-to munging renders the "reply" function unusable. Without 
manual inspection (i.e. removing the list address from the recipients) I 
cannot reply only to the author (and yes, I do that often enough for it 
to be annoying).



I've been used to sending mails to a
mailing list by addressing it directly and relying on the list to send 
that
out to other users. This would seem to me to be the most appropriate 
method,
regardless of whether it's the 'correct way' - my reasoning for this 
is

because some users will not wish to receive instant updates, rather
receiving their messages in a digest format.
Actually, it's the fault of your MUA if people do get copies they do not 
want. The "Mail-Followup-To" header indicates where to send group 
replies (whereas Reply-To indicates where to send replies intended only 
for the original author). Outlook and some others are well known for not 
supporting this header (besides other things, BTW - I hope you can even 
_read_ this mail because it's PGP/MIME signed).


CU Sascha

--
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http://www.infra-silbe.de/


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Shaun McDonald]

Christopher Woods wrote:
I guess you are not aware of the "reply all" button in 
thunderbird which does send to the mailing list, so it's only 
logical that "reply" does not send to the ML.


Yes, "reply all" does send a copy directly to the author, but 
mailman is intelligent enough so you can tell it not to send 
dupes to people addressed directly (unless addressed by BCC, 
in which case there is no way to tell there was a dupe in the 
first place)



So for all us Outlook users, if we hit Reply-All (like I just did to reply
to this), and my client inserts both Dirk's and Lance's addres into the To:
dialog but includes talk@openstreetmap.org in the CC field... It's not a
problem with the way the list is configured?
  
Thunderbird and Apple mail do pretty much the same thing, which is what 
is expected.

It seems a little 'unnatural' to me, I've been used to sending mails to a
mailing list by addressing it directly and relying on the list to send that
out to other users. This would seem to me to be the most appropriate method,
regardless of whether it's the 'correct way' - my reasoning for this is
because some users will not wish to receive instant updates, rather
receiving their messages in a digest format.

As such, sending all replies directly to the listserver allows for the
server to deal that mail out to fellow subscribers in the manner in which
they have chosen, rather than me making the choice for them and resulting in
them getting an instant response _and_ the digest email whenever they
normally receive it. I know the majority of users will likely get instant
updates anyway, but there must be some subscribers to lists who take part in
conversations yet do not wish to receive instant updates?
  

They are participating in the conversation, so may wish to respond sooner.

Shaun

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Christopher Woods]

> I guess you are not aware of the "reply all" button in 
> thunderbird which does send to the mailing list, so it's only 
> logical that "reply" does not send to the ML.
> 
> Yes, "reply all" does send a copy directly to the author, but 
> mailman is intelligent enough so you can tell it not to send 
> dupes to people addressed directly (unless addressed by BCC, 
> in which case there is no way to tell there was a dupe in the 
> first place)

So for all us Outlook users, if we hit Reply-All (like I just did to reply
to this), and my client inserts both Dirk's and Lance's addres into the To:
dialog but includes talk@openstreetmap.org in the CC field... It's not a
problem with the way the list is configured?

It seems a little 'unnatural' to me, I've been used to sending mails to a
mailing list by addressing it directly and relying on the list to send that
out to other users. This would seem to me to be the most appropriate method,
regardless of whether it's the 'correct way' - my reasoning for this is
because some users will not wish to receive instant updates, rather
receiving their messages in a digest format.

As such, sending all replies directly to the listserver allows for the
server to deal that mail out to fellow subscribers in the manner in which
they have chosen, rather than me making the choice for them and resulting in
them getting an instant response _and_ the digest email whenever they
normally receive it. I know the majority of users will likely get instant
updates anyway, but there must be some subscribers to lists who take part in
conversations yet do not wish to receive instant updates?


Just a thought.


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Dirk-Lüder Kreie]

Lance Dyas schrieb:

leblatt wrote:
No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org 
 message, it replies to the message 
originator, not the list. I have to hit “reply all”, and remove the 
originator.


On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use 
outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ?


No I use Thunderbird and it has the same effect for me.. OpenLayers is 
the only other mailing list with this stupid
setting and it annoys the hell out of me.. If I want to reply privately 
to a public conversation I should have to go

out of my way to do that not the other way around


I guess you are not aware of the "reply all" button in thunderbird which 
does send to the mailing list, so it's only logical that "reply" does 
not send to the ML.


Yes, "reply all" does send a copy directly to the author, but mailman is 
intelligent enough so you can tell it not to send dupes to people 
addressed directly (unless addressed by BCC, in which case there is no 
way to tell there was a dupe in the first place)


--

Dirk-Lüder "Deelkar" Kreie
Bremen - 53.0952°N 8.8652°E



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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Florian Lohoff]

On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 10:31:30AM +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> On 01-Sep-08, at 10:00 AM, Christopher Woods wrote:
> 
> > (I have little experience of other mail clients, particularly  
> > outside of the
> > win32 sphere - do other mail clients behave differently (and  
> > 'correctly' as
> > I would describe it, when you hit reply on this list?)
> 
> until saturday, clicking 'reply' on this list was going to the list.  
> Now it is going to the sender - which is why you are getting two  
> copies of this.

Which is how i like it - I am filtering all the lists to their
individual folder but once i participate in a thread i want it in my
inbox. Most lists work like this and filtering dupes is much easier than
trying to guess which of the mails only to the list have your content
too.

What annoys me is the Subject addition - i filter to folders so i know
which list this mail came from so why waste subject length by adding the
list name too?

But in the end its an BSD vs Linux, emacs vs vi, mysql vs postgres type
of war which has no clear "better".

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff  [EMAIL PROTECTED] +49-171-2280134
Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little 
  security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Mark Williams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> On 01-Sep-08, at 1:47 AM, leblatt wrote:
> 
>> No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org  
>> message, it replies to the message originator, not the list. I have  
>> to hit “reply all”, and remove the originator.
>>
>> On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use  
>> outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ?
>>
> 
> seems to be something just added - I hope the listadmin will revert.  
> (this being one of the longest running flames on mailing lists:  
> 'where does reply-to go?'
> 
A quick flick through the archives would reveal that this is not a new
"feature" but something which has been discussed before. It catches me
out too, from time to time...

It's been left this way after discussion.

Strange but true..

Mark
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 01-Sep-08, at 10:00 AM, Christopher Woods wrote:

> (I have little experience of other mail clients, particularly  
> outside of the
> win32 sphere - do other mail clients behave differently (and  
> 'correctly' as
> I would describe it, when you hit reply on this list?)

until saturday, clicking 'reply' on this list was going to the list.  
Now it is going to the sender - which is why you are getting two  
copies of this.


-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/





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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Christopher Woods]

> iirc, the problem was caused by non-standard (but 'simpler') 
> behaviour of e-mail clients/mailing lists, and people 
> becoming accustomed to that behaviour rather than the 
> standard way of doing things. i imagine microsoft were 
> involved somewhere, but others are probably as bad.
> 
> now some mailing lists are set up to do things the 'standard' 
> way, and some to do things the 'expected' way, so there is a 
> perception that some are doing something stupid
> 
> there are many things wrong with the world


... But some we can fix, some we cannot. :)

Outlook 2003 behaves by putting in sender's email address when you hit
Reply, and putting both in when you hit reply-all. This is, for me, expected
behaviour, insofar as the client is following instructions as the mailing
list presents a message being sent by (in your case)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of robin paulson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Just about all other mailing lists I'm on behave by putting in the main
submission address into the To box when I hit reply. I'm on other Mailman
lists where they behave perfectly as you'd expect. This mailing list, be it
'correct' in its configuration or not, still doesn't behave /logically/ -
and that to me is a usability problem which could (I guess) be comparatively
easily solved.

(I have little experience of other mail clients, particularly outside of the
win32 sphere - do other mail clients behave differently (and 'correctly' as
I would describe it, when you hit reply on this list?)

Christopher


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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On 01-Sep-08, at 1:47 AM, leblatt wrote:

> No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org  
> message, it replies to the message originator, not the list. I have  
> to hit “reply all”, and remove the originator.
>
> On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use  
> outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ?
>

seems to be something just added - I hope the listadmin will revert.  
(this being one of the longest running flames on mailing lists:  
'where does reply-to go?'

-- 
regards

Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate, NRC-FOSS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/





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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[robin paulson]

Lance Dyas wrote:
> leblatt wrote:
>> No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org 
>>  message, it replies to the message 
>> originator, not the list. I have to hit “reply all”, and remove the 
>> originator.
>>
>> On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use 
>> outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ?
>>
> No I use Thunderbird and it has the same effect for me.. OpenLayers is 
> the only other mailing list with this stupid
> setting and it annoys the hell out of me.. If I want to reply privately 
> to a public conversation I should have to go
> out of my way to do that not the other way around

iirc, the problem was caused by non-standard (but 'simpler') behaviour 
of e-mail clients/mailing lists, and people becoming accustomed to that 
behaviour rather than the standard way of doing things. i imagine 
microsoft were involved somewhere, but others are probably as bad.

now some mailing lists are set up to do things the 'standard' way, and 
some to do things the 'expected' way, so there is a perception that some 
are doing something stupid

there are many things wrong with the world

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Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior

[Lance Dyas]

leblatt wrote:
>
> No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org 
>  message, it replies to the message 
> originator, not the list. I have to hit “reply all”, and remove the 
> originator.
>
> On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use 
> outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ?
>
No I use Thunderbird and it has the same effect for me.. OpenLayers is 
the only other mailing list with this stupid
setting and it annoys the hell out of me.. If I want to reply privately 
to a public conversation I should have to go
out of my way to do that not the other way around



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