Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On 2 Sep 2008, at 00:32, Sascha Silbe wrote: On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 12:58:48AM +0200, bvh wrote: Well, and it breaks my expectation of what reply means in the context of a public discussion. Should you have different expectations, see the documentation of your mail client (hint : ignore_list_reply_to) This thread is going nowhere, so let's just end it. You don't get my point and I don't agree with your solution. Take a look at http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html and stop bickering about the way you have to reply to the mailing list. Shaun ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 07:59:17AM +0100, Shaun McDonald wrote: Take a look at http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html and stop bickering about the way you have to reply to the mailing list. My mailer, mutt, has a List-reply that does *exactly* what I want, i.e. it finds the talk@openstreetmap.org adress from List-Id or such. But, this isn't really the point: I'm *still* in favour of adding reply-to to the list. It might be technical wrong, but: Getting outlook and other proprietary mailers to behave is a lost battle, there are fights more worthwhile to fight :) Such as the fight for free map-data ;-) So even though it doesn't bother me personally, the way it is no, I say that the above document is outdated - an email-list (especially one like talk) *is* a forum, and replys should per default go to the list. Anyone not wanting to send to the list, will have the info to do that anyways. And for the only semi-technical argument that you break something that can't be repaired: I have *never* ever placed a reply-to to something other than my from-adress, and expected it to work, without *also* stating explicitly at the end of the mail. And I rather make the from-header be the adress I want replys to, if I want to do it permanently. So I say: Let's be pragmatic and do what most people feel is the most logical thing. And most people will *not* have sensible mailers. -- - Vegard Engen, member of the first RFC1149 implementation team. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 09:23:13AM +0200, vegard wrote: And for the only semi-technical argument that you break something that can't be repaired: I have *never* ever placed a reply-to to something other than my from-adress, and expected it to work, without *also* stating explicitly at the end of the mail. I always do for mailing lists. The subscription address will filter out everything not coming from the list (because I did get way too much SPAM to my subscription addresses). For personal replies, I have a special address that gets rotated every 3 months so the SPAM level is bearable. That's the address in the Reply-To header and there's absolutely no need to add it to every mail body - it's already there in the headers and it's exactly what the header is designed for. So just because _you_ don't use it, it doesn't mean _everybody_ doesn't. OK, I'll shut up now. :) CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Monday 2008-09-01, Christopher Woods wrote: I guess you are not aware of the reply all button in thunderbird which does send to the mailing list, so it's only logical that reply does not send to the ML. Yes, reply all does send a copy directly to the author, but mailman is intelligent enough so you can tell it not to send dupes to people addressed directly (unless addressed by BCC, in which case there is no way to tell there was a dupe in the first place) So for all us Outlook users, if we hit Reply-All (like I just did to reply to this), and my client inserts both Dirk's and Lance's addres into the To: dialog but includes talk@openstreetmap.org in the CC field... It's not a problem with the way the list is configured? nope, a decent email client is supposed to have to following: 1) reply to sender - reply to from adress (or contents of reply-to header if present) 2) reply to all - reply to every adress present 3) reply to list - reply to value of list-post header problem with outlook is that it lacks reply-to-list AFAIK (probably because the built-in approximation of an email list in exchange groupware is a shared folder with 'discussion' items, not an actual list) -- Cheers, Cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
Cobaco wrote: nope, a decent email client is supposed to have to following: 1) reply to sender - reply to from adress (or contents of reply-to header if present) 2) reply to all - reply to every adress present 3) reply to list - reply to value of list-post header problem with outlook is that it lacks reply-to-list AFAIK (probably because the built-in approximation of an email list in exchange groupware is a shared folder with 'discussion' items, not an actual list) Does all email list software insert a list-post header? I'm on a couple hosted with LSoft and a load with Yahoo and none of them seem to, although that may be because they are all configured with the Reply-To to be the list address already (as, I note, does OSM-newbies). I ask as I was considering looking into writing an add-in for the reply to list option for Outlook 2007 (which I use), but if it will only work on the few lists I subscribe to related to OSM (other than the Newbies one) then I'm not sure it is worth the effort. I'd rather learn Perl and try and get the [EMAIL PROTECTED] client to work more reliably on Vista bg. Not that I'm too bothered, as long as I remember to check To before clicking Send (this reply almost went to cobaco only). Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Tuesday 2008-09-02, Ed Loach wrote: Cobaco wrote: nope, a decent email client is supposed to have to following: 1) reply to sender - reply to from adress (or contents of reply-to header if present) 2) reply to all - reply to every adress present 3) reply to list - reply to value of list-post header problem with outlook is that it lacks reply-to-list AFAIK (probably because the built-in approximation of an email list in exchange groupware is a shared folder with 'discussion' items, not an actual list) Does all email list software insert a list-post header? well the header defined in least rfc-2369 and referred to in rfc-4021 (the first one of which is about a decade old). So it should be implemented by mailing list software by now, though I don't doubt that there's still software out there that doesn't. -- Cheers, Cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: On 01-Sep-08, at 1:47 AM, leblatt wrote: No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org message, it replies to the message originator, not the list. I have to hit “reply all”, and remove the originator. On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ? seems to be something just added - I hope the listadmin will revert. (this being one of the longest running flames on mailing lists: 'where does reply-to go?' A quick flick through the archives would reveal that this is not a new feature but something which has been discussed before. It catches me out too, from time to time... It's been left this way after discussion. Strange but true.. Mark -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIu5XTJfMmcSPNh94RAnb5AJ9DZl7BgbasNthjPjghUDx2TeyluQCePAWA 7RTPhn8tF9zPox1/yQ+m/v0= =w8FT -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 10:31:30AM +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: On 01-Sep-08, at 10:00 AM, Christopher Woods wrote: (I have little experience of other mail clients, particularly outside of the win32 sphere - do other mail clients behave differently (and 'correctly' as I would describe it, when you hit reply on this list?) until saturday, clicking 'reply' on this list was going to the list. Now it is going to the sender - which is why you are getting two copies of this. Which is how i like it - I am filtering all the lists to their individual folder but once i participate in a thread i want it in my inbox. Most lists work like this and filtering dupes is much easier than trying to guess which of the mails only to the list have your content too. What annoys me is the Subject addition - i filter to folders so i know which list this mail came from so why waste subject length by adding the list name too? But in the end its an BSD vs Linux, emacs vs vi, mysql vs postgres type of war which has no clear better. Flo -- Florian Lohoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] +49-171-2280134 Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
Lance Dyas schrieb: leblatt wrote: No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org message, it replies to the message originator, not the list. I have to hit “reply all”, and remove the originator. On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ? No I use Thunderbird and it has the same effect for me.. OpenLayers is the only other mailing list with this stupid setting and it annoys the hell out of me.. If I want to reply privately to a public conversation I should have to go out of my way to do that not the other way around I guess you are not aware of the reply all button in thunderbird which does send to the mailing list, so it's only logical that reply does not send to the ML. Yes, reply all does send a copy directly to the author, but mailman is intelligent enough so you can tell it not to send dupes to people addressed directly (unless addressed by BCC, in which case there is no way to tell there was a dupe in the first place) -- Dirk-Lüder Deelkar Kreie Bremen - 53.0952°N 8.8652°E signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
BTW - I hope you can even _read_ this mail because it's PGP/MIME signed). Quite legible ;) Outlook copes far better than I think some give it credit for! (and I'd like to see Thunderbird seamlessly sync with my WinMo smartphone, the last time I tried it as an alternative it munged half of my email repository and just 'broke' every time I tried to use it after that... Gave up and went back to Old Faithful after that :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
Lance Dyas wrote: [...] The direct emails arent marked as coming through the list and are likely to end up in my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked. Well they are marked. For mailing lists like OSM I do not filter the email address but the subject. The [OSM-talk] part, stays in the subject, even if this has been a direct reply to your message. They are even correctly positioned in the thread in Thundbird here. So since everything which comes through the list has the [OSM] part in the subject and every reply which is sent directly to you has it either, I'd just change my filter from email address to subject and everythings as you like it. regards, Norbert PS: I sent this mail only to the list, just to be sure you don't consider this mail rude. ;-) smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
(Resend because of wrong sender address) On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 05:35:17PM +0100, Christopher Woods wrote: BTW - I hope you can even _read_ this mail because it's PGP/MIME signed). Quite legible ;) Outlook copes far better than I think some give it credit for! I added that sentence because some of my customers using some corporate version of Outlook (!= Outlook Express, BTW) could _not_ read my mails. So there's a real-world problem here, not just bashing. And no, that wasn't it the 1990s but during the last few years. :-/ CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
And have you been convinced sending the author two messages...makes sense? or that the default behavior is a private response to a public conversation... I have even found direct emails quite close to rude.(mostly when the responder actually was rude) the default reply should simply target the list ... The direct emails arent marked as coming through the list and are likely to end up in my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked. I am in my forties and preger to learn new tricks that make sense and are generally useful.. fighting with my mail client to avoid double sending to folks isnt one of them. I don't necessarily agree on a personal level, but there's no use fighting the current when it's far stronger than you are individually. I've learnt that the hard way on other lists :( I'm in agreement with you... List emails should solely come from the list, not from individuals who are responding to a conversation you've previously taken part in. But, while I prefer to reply solely to the list's main address, if the default reply method for this list is to respond to individual correspondents and send the mail to the list address to deal with the other subscribers, then I suppose all I can do is shrug my shoulders and get used to it. On the odd occasion such as now, I'll manually edit the to: addresses and only put in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list address (which I know seems a bit hypocritical given how I've sent previous emails in this list today) but if that's how the list admins have configured it then so be it. Pragmatism wins. Why don't I just keep on modifying the to: addresses each time I send a reply? Well, although it's a relatively minor operation, after a while it becomes too much of a hassle and too frustrating to have to go and clean out the recipient addresses every time. I'll just fire off a response and hit Send. I'm on a lot of lists and I can foresee it becoming very tiresome after a while - but as long as the other active participants don't mind correspondence being conducted in this manner, then who am I to go against the tide? shrug (... Unless you want to form an uprising with me and take over the list in a piratey style? (I already have September the 19th* block booked for activities of this manner if you're interested.)) (*see yarr.org.uk) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
The default responder to public conversation venues needs to be to just that ... There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your MUA vendor. The buttons you're currently using are reply (with an implied to author) and reply to all, not reply (default) and reply (alternative). The only thing OSM can do is to trick your MUA into believing the reply to author function should reply to the list instead. And note the last word I used: _instead_. It doesn't work as expected anymore, rendering the expected function unavailable. Please go bothering Microsoft (or Mozilla, or whatever your MUA vendor is) about it, not the list admins. They'd get beaten by the other side as soon as they'd change the behaviour, since this breaks how any sane MUA works. So for lists such as the BBC Backstage Majordomo list (which used to behave in the way this list currently does, but now puts in the appropriate list address when you hit Reply), are you saying that they've in fact bodged the list's setup and it's not strictly correct? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Monday 01 September 2008 19:07:13 Norbert Wenzel wrote: Lance Dyas wrote: [...] The direct emails arent marked as coming through the list and are likely to end up in my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked. Well they are marked. For mailing lists like OSM I do not filter the email address but the subject. The [OSM-talk] part, stays in the subject, even if this has been a direct reply to your message. They are even correctly positioned in the thread in Thundbird here. So since everything which comes through the list has the [OSM] part in the subject and every reply which is sent directly to you has it either, I'd just change my filter from email address to subject and everythings as you like it. Or just filter on the email header List-Id containing talk.openstreetmap.org. I believe a header like this is set for all mailman lists. An email client like KMail will do this easily (right click on a message and click 'create filter'-'filter on mailing list...'). This also helps avoid problems where mails are cross-posted between lists since you can sometimes end up with the subject beginning with [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] Incidentally, in KMail, simply clicking reply will send to talk@openstreetmap.org though it does also have a 'reply to mailing list' button for the lists where that doesn't work. Regards, Matt Williams signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
vegard wrote: On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 09:05:56PM +0200, Sascha Silbe wrote: On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 01:39:33PM -0500, Lance Dyas wrote: The default responder to public conversation venues needs to be to just that ... There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your MUA vendor. The buttons you're currently using are reply (with an implied to author) and reply to all, not reply (default) and reply (alternative). Actually, yes and no. the mailing-list *could* add a reply-to header, to the list-adress. It's not a fool-proof method (what if the user also adds one?), but it makes an effort, at least, to tell the users that the reply-to should go to the list. This works great actually didnt realize that the header wasnt there... sure enough most of my lists have a reply to header/go figure.. the odd man out are not more technically correct they are just inconvenient on purpose and claiming to be more correct. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Monday 01 September 2008 20:57:59 Matt Williams wrote: On Monday 01 September 2008 19:07:13 Norbert Wenzel wrote: Lance Dyas wrote: [...] The direct emails arent marked as coming through the list and are likely to end up in my spam bucketss... or just get overlooked. Well they are marked. For mailing lists like OSM I do not filter the email address but the subject. The [OSM-talk] part, stays in the subject, even if this has been a direct reply to your message. They are even correctly positioned in the thread in Thundbird here. So since everything which comes through the list has the [OSM] part in the subject and every reply which is sent directly to you has it either, I'd just change my filter from email address to subject and everythings as you like it. Or just filter on the email header List-Id containing talk.openstreetmap.org. I believe a header like this is set for all mailman lists. An email client like KMail will do this easily (right click on a message and click 'create filter'-'filter on mailing list...'). This also helps avoid problems where mails are cross-posted between lists since you can sometimes end up with the subject beginning with [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] Incidentally, in KMail, simply clicking reply will send to talk@openstreetmap.org though it does also have a 'reply to mailing list' button for the lists where that doesn't work. It was brought to my attention that my previous email had the Reply-To field set to my email address explicitly which (in KMail's case) overrode the ability for simply clicking on 'Reply' to reply to the list. However, for an email without the Reply-To field set, 'Reply' sends it to the list. This simply further shows that the hugely differing behaviour between mail client makes this a trick problem to solve. Regards, Matt (This email should not have the Reply-To field set) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 08:50:46PM +0100, Christopher Woods wrote: So for lists such as the BBC Backstage Majordomo list (which used to behave in the way this list currently does, but now puts in the appropriate list address when you hit Reply), are you saying that they've in fact bodged the list's setup and it's not strictly correct? It's more than not strictly correct: It's plain broken. It breaks my reply-to-author function. Everytime I want to use it, I have to manually fix the recipients. CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
2008/9/2 Sascha Silbe [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There's no way OSM could change that default, it's up to your MUA vendor. The buttons you're currently using are reply (with an implied to author) and reply to all, not reply (default) and reply (alternative). The only thing OSM can do is to trick your MUA into believing the reply to author function should reply to the list instead. And note the last word I used: _instead_. It doesn't work as expected anymore, rendering the expected function unavailable. But this is where the problem is. You did not send me this email, the list did. Reply does not imply send to author it implies send to who sent me the message. If I forward an email to someone, a reply comes to me, not the original author. If the list forwards an email to someone, the expectation is therefore created that a reply would go back to the list. The fact that lists work differently in the background is not obvious. An OSM thread is supposed to be creating a group conversation. Setting it up so the default way of replying breaks threads away from the list into private conversations might work well for a advertising list, but is strange for a list of this type. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 01:06:27AM +0200, Sascha Silbe wrote: It's more than not strictly correct: It's plain broken. It breaks my reply-to-author function. Everytime I want to use it, I have to manually fix the recipients. Well, and it breaks my expectation of what reply means in the context of a public discussion. Should you have different expectations, see the documentation of your mail client (hint : ignore_list_reply_to) cu bart ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 12:58:48AM +0200, bvh wrote: Well, and it breaks my expectation of what reply means in the context of a public discussion. Should you have different expectations, see the documentation of your mail client (hint : ignore_list_reply_to) This thread is going nowhere, so let's just end it. You don't get my point and I don't agree with your solution. CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
leblatt wrote: No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org message, it replies to the message originator, not the list. I have to hit “reply all”, and remove the originator. On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ? No I use Thunderbird and it has the same effect for me.. OpenLayers is the only other mailing list with this stupid setting and it annoys the hell out of me.. If I want to reply privately to a public conversation I should have to go out of my way to do that not the other way around ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
Lance Dyas wrote: leblatt wrote: No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org message, it replies to the message originator, not the list. I have to hit “reply all”, and remove the originator. On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ? No I use Thunderbird and it has the same effect for me.. OpenLayers is the only other mailing list with this stupid setting and it annoys the hell out of me.. If I want to reply privately to a public conversation I should have to go out of my way to do that not the other way around iirc, the problem was caused by non-standard (but 'simpler') behaviour of e-mail clients/mailing lists, and people becoming accustomed to that behaviour rather than the standard way of doing things. i imagine microsoft were involved somewhere, but others are probably as bad. now some mailing lists are set up to do things the 'standard' way, and some to do things the 'expected' way, so there is a perception that some are doing something stupid there are many things wrong with the world ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
On 01-Sep-08, at 1:47 AM, leblatt wrote: No big deal, but when I hit « reply » on a talk@openstreetmap.org message, it replies to the message originator, not the list. I have to hit “reply all”, and remove the originator. On the French ML, I just have to hit “reply”, as in most MLs. I use outlook as a mail reader. Is this a problem ? seems to be something just added - I hope the listadmin will revert. (this being one of the longest running flames on mailing lists: 'where does reply-to go?' -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mailing list behavior
iirc, the problem was caused by non-standard (but 'simpler') behaviour of e-mail clients/mailing lists, and people becoming accustomed to that behaviour rather than the standard way of doing things. i imagine microsoft were involved somewhere, but others are probably as bad. now some mailing lists are set up to do things the 'standard' way, and some to do things the 'expected' way, so there is a perception that some are doing something stupid there are many things wrong with the world ... But some we can fix, some we cannot. :) Outlook 2003 behaves by putting in sender's email address when you hit Reply, and putting both in when you hit reply-all. This is, for me, expected behaviour, insofar as the client is following instructions as the mailing list presents a message being sent by (in your case) [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of robin paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just about all other mailing lists I'm on behave by putting in the main submission address into the To box when I hit reply. I'm on other Mailman lists where they behave perfectly as you'd expect. This mailing list, be it 'correct' in its configuration or not, still doesn't behave /logically/ - and that to me is a usability problem which could (I guess) be comparatively easily solved. (I have little experience of other mail clients, particularly outside of the win32 sphere - do other mail clients behave differently (and 'correctly' as I would describe it, when you hit reply on this list?) Christopher ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
