Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
I have tired to find some official definitions to clarify this. Here is the Australian Standard definition of a road from AS 1348—2002 Road and traffic engineering—Glossary of terms: road: Route trafficable by motor vehicles; in law, the public right-of-way between boundaries of adjoining property In other words, a road is pubic land between two properties, whatever it is surfaced with so a fire trail completely within a State Forest would not not be a road. Track is not defined in AS 1348. In fact, when track is mentioned, it is in relation to railway tracks (the steel things) or the track of a vehicle (width between the wheels). Just to confuse matters, this is what the NSW Department of Environment, Climate Change and Water says about tracks in National Parks: So what's the difference between a *trail *and a *track*? Trails are generally only one lane wide and aren't covered with gravel or any other form of road surface. You can walk or cycle on them. If a trail is open to vehicles, it will often be suitable for 4WDs only. Walking *tracks *are for walkers only. Some are only wide enough for single-file walking; others allow three people to walk comfortably side-by-side. Higher-standard tracks, usually in areas visited by many people, may be surfaced with gravel, tarmac or boardwalks. Here is a pragmatic solution based on AS 1348 and OSM custom: highway=road if it is open to the public and located between property boundaries, regardless of surface. If it is within a property (including National Parks and State Forests): - unsealed: highway=track - sealed: highway=service Cheers. 2009/10/20 Liz ed...@billiau.net: On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Mark Pulley wrote: This might sound like a silly question, but I was wondering if there is any guidance on when a road becomes a track. I've been driving on dirt roads since I first learnt to drive, so I might tag a way highway=unclassified surface=unsealed, where someone who has always lived in a capital city might see the same road and tag it highway=track tracktype=grade2. I'm particularly thinking of roads through forests (in particular of a road near Mt Canobolas, Orange NSW), some are in good enough condition to definitely call a proper road but others aren't as well maintained, narrower, more eroded. I haven't got any sample pictures (was busy driving!) a couple of weeks ago some rural mappers were in favour of your scheme. can i drive my car on it easily - road am i crawling along avoiding obstacles and wishing i had brought my mountain bike - track i don't grade tracks (personal belief only, if someone else wishes to spend time doing grading that's fine, but the condition of the surface varies according to when the council last graded, rain etc) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
2009/10/20 Liz ed...@billiau.net: i don't grade tracks (personal belief only, if someone else wishes to spend time doing grading that's fine, but the condition of the surface varies according to when the council last graded, rain etc) Actually I'd say tracks don't get graded, unclassified roads do. IMHO the only maintainence a tracks get is when a tree falls across the track and needs to be cut up by RFS or NPWS. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
2009/10/20 swanilli swani...@gmail.com: Here is a pragmatic solution based on AS 1348 and OSM custom: highway=road if it is open to the public and located between property boundaries, regardless of surface. Some roads go through private properties, but they aren't tracks, you usually cross cattle grids when entering/exiting the private property, even though the road is publicly accessible. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] State of the Map 2010
I've been toying with the idea of putting a bid in for SoTM 2010, would anyone else be interested in helping put together the bid? There is a wiki page up on bids for next year + links to past bids etc. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2010/Bid ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
True, but it is probably just a technicality, in that it is the same property owner on both sides of the road, with a strip of public land (the road) down the middle. You just can't tell because there are no fences. (Actually, this is where Google maps can be useful in Australia because they do show propperty boundaries, though not always reliably.) On old maps this situation used to be marked by a sort of elongated S crossing the road to signify that the property continued. The cattle grids mark either the boundary of paddocks in the same property or the boundaries between different properties. The same thing applies to railway lines that go through people's properties. The railways call them rail corridors and these days treat them very much as private land. 2009/10/20 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com 2009/10/20 swanilli swani...@gmail.com: Here is a pragmatic solution based on AS 1348 and OSM custom: highway=road if it is open to the public and located between property boundaries, regardless of surface. Some roads go through private properties, but they aren't tracks, you usually cross cattle grids when entering/exiting the private property, even though the road is publicly accessible. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] State of the Map 2010
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, John Smith wrote: I've been toying with the idea of putting a bid in for SoTM 2010, would anyone else be interested in helping put together the bid? There is a wiki page up on bids for next year + links to past bids etc. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2010/Bid ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au I reckon 2011 is a better bet ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
2009/10/20 swanilli swani...@gmail.com: True, but it is probably just a technicality, in that it is the same property owner on both sides of the road, with a strip of public land (the road) down the middle. You just can't tell because there are no fences. (Actually, this is where Google maps can be useful in Australia because they do show propperty boundaries, though not always reliably.) I just looked at a bit of road that goes through private property here and that seems to be the case, there is a void between properties either side of the road. The same thing applies to railway lines that go through people's properties. The railways call them rail corridors and these days treat them very much as private land. Railyway corridores appear as owned land on the Qld property boundary data... Which makes it easy to distingush the roads from railways :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] State of the Map 2010
2009/10/20 Liz ed...@billiau.net: I reckon 2011 is a better bet I tend to agree we still have a few more ducks to get in order etc. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
Quoting swanilli swani...@gmail.com: Here is a pragmatic solution based on AS 1348 and OSM custom: highway=road if it is open to the public and located between property boundaries, regardless of surface. Here are some ways that are between property boundaries, but definitely not roads (yes, I drove my 2-wheel drive Daihatsu Pyzar on these!): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.29107lon=149.11792zoom=17 (Orange NSW) http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-30.53151lon=151.6575zoom=17 (Armidale NSW) If it is within a property (including National Parks and State Forests): - unsealed: highway=track - sealed: highway=service See John Smith's post about public roads through private property. In addition, many national parks have public access roads that are unsealed, but maintained. I think Liz's suggestion (avoiding obstacles = track, etc) makes sense, so I'll go with this, bearing in mind temporary obstacles like potholes that may be graded later. Mark P. --- They offered to transport me back to any point in history that I would care to go, and so I had them send me back to last Thursday night, so I could pay my phone bill on time. (Weird Al Yankovic, Everything You Know Is Wrong) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
2009/10/20 Mark Pulley mrpul...@lizzy.com.au: I think Liz's suggestion (avoiding obstacles = track, etc) makes sense, so I'll go with this, bearing in mind temporary obstacles like potholes that may be graded later. You get potholes on sealed roads, so that isn't saying much :) Corrigates on the other hand are unique to gravel roads... I'd say if it looks maintained it's most likely a road, if it looks unmaintained it's more likely a track. Think those off road racing cars, could they do 100km/hr on a unmaintained track through a forest? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
swanilli swani...@gmail.com wrote: I have tired to find some official definitions to clarify this. Here is the Australian Standard definition of a road from AS 1348?2002 Road and traffic engineering?Glossary of terms: road: Route trafficable by motor vehicles; in law, the public right-of-way between boundaries of adjoining property Wikipedia says: A road is an identifiable route, way or path between places. That definition isn't any more useful or relevant than the one you found. Here is a pragmatic solution based on AS 1348 and OSM custom: highway=road if it is open to the public and located between property boundaries, regardless of surface. highway=road means A road of unknown classification. This is intended as a temporary tag to mark a road until it has been properly surveyed. If it is within a property (including National Parks and State Forests): - unsealed: highway=track - sealed: highway=service How is the proximity of a property boundary relevant to the tagging of the type of road? Tagging should be defined by things such as surface, width, lane markings, what's at the end of the road, etc. As a map user, it doesn't matter to me if the road is between adjoining properties, a public right of way through the middle of private property, or a road through a State Forest or National Park. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
2009/10/20 Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au: highway=road means A road of unknown classification. This is intended as a temporary tag to mark a road until it has been properly surveyed. I think he meant highway=unclassified How is the proximity of a property boundary relevant to the tagging of Not proximity of a boundary, is it within a boundary or not. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
2009/10/20 Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Actually I'd say tracks don't get graded, unclassified roads do. IMHO the only maintainence a tracks get is when a tree falls across the track and needs to be cut up by RFS or NPWS. Many fire trails in National Parks and State Forests are graded periodically especially after heavy rain, have erosion prevention berms maintained, etc. They're definitely highway=track, usually at least 4wd_only=recommended and often 4wd_only=yes. Well it comes back to my suggestion before about offroad rally cars being able to do 100km/hr... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I think he meant highway=unclassified Probably, but that's not going to be right all the time either. Not proximity of a boundary, is it within a boundary or not. I still don't think that matters for tagging the road, only for tagging land use. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] ?WinCE program
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: does anyone know if gosmore or navit or other program can be persuaded to work on one of these machines? I don't know that much about WinCE, but I think software isn't portable between platforms even on the same chip architecture (eg, ARM). You'd need an SDK or appropriately configured cross-compiler, and those can probably only be (easily) supplied by the device manufacturer. You could just try this: http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Compiling_Navit_for_WinCE/WinMobile I don't know how you'd execute the program once you had it compiled. If you can identify the hardware well enough you may be able to run Linux on it, and after that you can compile anything that runs on Linux. Pull the cover off and look for some markings on the main board and plug them in to Google. Next, try the markings on the biggest chips on the board. If you're lucky someone will have already done it and there will be instructions. You're probably not going to be able to get any of these things working though. Most of the time messing with these dinky embedded systems takes a good deal of knowledge and often an oscilliscope and/or soldering iron. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, John Smith wrote: Most people aren't taught to drive or grow up on dirt roads, I only have a 2wd car and I'll drive it on roads some/most people wouldn't, so that's a bit too subjective... and we have enough trouble with furriners trying to drive commodores on unsuitable roads without encouraging them by mapping roads as highway=something when for them it should be track. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
I am often mildly amused, though sometimes dismayed, by the way threads on this list head off at strange tangents. This is another and the kind of reaction one gets makes me wonder whether it is worth the effort to contribute. Just to make things clear: I noted in my original contribution that the Australian Standard definition of a road from AS 1348—2002 Road and traffic engineering—Glossary of terms is road: Route trafficable by motor vehicles; in law, the public right-of-way between boundaries of adjoining property. Surely there can be no arguing over this. I thought that in this list we were dealing with what is appropriate for Australia. This is the official, Australian Standard and you will note, in law, definition of a road in Australia. It is the definition that people like engineers and the government departments that build and maintain roads use. What is in contention is how to tag what OSM calls highways that do not fit this definition. Clearly they cannot, without causing ambiguity and confusion, be tagged as highway=road in Australia. Can we please have some rational discussion on that, directed towards guiding those of us who do tag things that are not within the Australian Standard definition for roads. On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, John Smith wrote: Most people aren't taught to drive or grow up on dirt roads, I only have a 2wd car and I'll drive it on roads some/most people wouldn't, so that's a bit too subjective... and we have enough trouble with furriners trying to drive commodores on unsuitable roads without encouraging them by mapping roads as highway=something when for them it should be track. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
I am not sure how this clarifies or confuses the tagging of roads in OSM compared with the Australian Standard definition. Both seem to be saying the same thing in different words. However, to move things along it would be worth looking into http://www.ozroads.com.au, an unofficial website that summarises the classification of roads in the states and territories (e.g. http://www.ozroads.com.au/NSW/RTA/classifications.htm). It would be nice to have the official classifications aligned to OSM classifications (e.g. primary , secondary etc). 2009/10/21 John Henderson snow...@gmx.com Some others in government seem to already have a mistaken idea about what constitutes a road. Take the Australian Road Rules: 12 What is a road (1) A road is an area that is open to or used by the public and is developed for, or has as one of its main uses, the driving or riding of motor vehicles. Note Motor vehicle is defined in the dictionary. (2) However, unless the contrary intention appears, a reference in the Australian Road Rules (except in this Division) to a road does not include a reference to: (a) an area so far as the area is declared, under another law of this jurisdiction, not to be a road for the Australian Road Rules; or (b) any shoulder of the road. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
2009/10/21 Liz ed...@billiau.net: On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, John Smith wrote: Most people aren't taught to drive or grow up on dirt roads, I only have a 2wd car and I'll drive it on roads some/most people wouldn't, so that's a bit too subjective... and we have enough trouble with furriners trying to drive commodores on unsuitable roads without encouraging them by mapping roads as highway=something when for them it should be track. This is where the 4wd_only tag comes in, there are major tracks that aren't suitable for cars but have some significants, my point was just because one person may be too timid to drive on dirt roads, doesn't mean another wouldn't which isn't very useful because you are making a subjective decision based on what you would do. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
2009/10/21 Ian Wills swani...@gmail.com: I am often mildly amused, though sometimes dismayed, by the way threads on this list head off at strange tangents. This is another and the kind of reaction one gets makes me wonder whether it is worth the effort to contribute. No one was disagreeing with you, however we don't have property boundary data for most of Australia yet so that isn't something we can readily use, especially with public roads that traverse someone's property. Surely there can be no arguing over this. I thought that in this list we Except we lack data to make these decisions based on the law. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
