[talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Richard Colless]

The trip to Timor Caves went well - now have "tourist" POI's for four
of the caves, although it's a brave tourist that will use them.

Also managed to survey most of the streets of Murrurundi, NSW.

During this job, I noticed some interesting POI's. Just North of
Murrurundi, there is a speed camera that someone has added. It's
visible when in Edit mode (Potlatch or JOSM), but doesn't show in the
View mode. It also didn't appear on my Garmin when I approached it. 

The relevant map is:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.76424&lon=150.83552&zoom=15

The speed camera is just north of the Pages River Caravan Park (very
nice park, we can recommend it to visitors). Surely a speed camera is
something you would want to show up on your GPS. Is there anything that
can be done to make it appear?

I added in a POI for a nearby mountain (Wallabadah Rock - East of
Murrurundi), and it appears on the View mode and on the GPS. So does
the Shell service station that I added. What's different about a speed
camera? Or, for that matter a feature tagged as "cave_entrance" - they
don't show up in View mode either?

Richard




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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Smith]

2010/1/3 Richard Colless :
> During this job, I noticed some interesting POI's. Just North of Murrurundi,
> there is a speed camera that someone has added. It's visible when in Edit

That would be my handy work :) I've marked in quite a few I had co-ords for...

> mode (Potlatch or JOSM), but doesn't show in the View mode. It also didn't
> appear on my Garmin when I approached it.

No idea how to get these show up on garmin's, although I'm guessing as
some kind of POI that will give you warnings when you are coming close
to them.

> The speed camera is just north of the Pages River Caravan Park (very nice
> park, we can recommend it to visitors). Surely a speed camera is something
> you would want to show up on your GPS. Is there anything that can be done to
> make it appear?

Speed cameras are a bit of a mess tagging wise, some add a node others
add a relation, but I don't think any method renders on OSM...

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Speed_trap
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Relation:enforcement
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Traffic_enforcement
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_Signs

etc...

> Shell service station that I added. What's different about a speed camera?
> Or, for that matter a feature tagged as "cave_entrance" - they don't show up
> in View mode either?

You are talking tagging v rendering, not everything tagged is
rendered, because the amount of things that could be possibly tagged
is almost limitless, but you really don't want everything showing up
on a map, and it doesn't look like anyone has asked for speed cameras
to be rendered.

Usually having this information to give you an audible warning would
be better than a visual warning, since you don't have to look away
from the road :)

The other very useful thing is to tag maxspeed=* limits, although I
noticed a couple of speed_camera tags tagged with the speed limit
also...

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[talk-au] Victorian routes

[Craig Feuerherdt]

Happy New Year OSMers!
Have created a page listing all the Victorian routes (M, A, B & C roads) -
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Victoria%2C_Australia/Routes.
It is a work in progress, however I have gone through a reasonable portion
of the rural areas of the state.
Hopefully this helps everyone in the goal of mapping all the major route of
Victoria. As you will see there are quite a few un-mapped routes.
There are a few attributing issues (highlighted in the notes) and some roads
may be mapped, but just weren't visible at the scale I was viewing it at. As
you make corrections, please update the table.
Part way through I thought it would have been useful to put in a description
of the C roads ie "Between Boort and Sea Lake" to assist people locating the
road. Will leave that to another time.
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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

Richard Colless wrote:
> The trip to Timor Caves went well - now have "tourist" POI's for four of 
> the caves, although it's a brave tourist that will use them.
> 
> Also managed to survey most of the streets of Murrurundi, NSW.
> 
> During this job, I noticed some interesting POI's. Just North of 
> Murrurundi, there is a speed camera that someone has added. It's visible 
> when in Edit mode (Potlatch or JOSM), but doesn't show in the View mode. 
> It also didn't appear on my Garmin when I approached it.

Likewise, I've added a few speed cameras around Canberra, and they're 
invisible.

My Garmin Nuvi doesn't recognise them either.  I strongly suspect that 
there's something proprietary about Garmin's own speed camera data, 
(where or how it's stored in the GPS).  It is after all a Garmin 
"separately-priced product".

> The relevant map is:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.76424&lon=150.83552&zoom=15 
> 
> 
> The speed camera is just north of the Pages River Caravan Park (very 
> nice park, we can recommend it to visitors). Surely a speed camera is 
> something you would want to show up on your GPS. Is there anything that 
> can be done to make it appear?
> 
> I added in a POI for a nearby mountain (Wallabadah Rock - East of 
> Murrurundi), and it appears on the View mode and on the GPS. So does the 
> Shell service station that I added. What's different about a speed 
> camera? Or, for that matter a feature tagged as "cave_entrance" - they 
> don't show up in View mode either?

Likewise for waterway=waterfall and a host of other things.  If 
appropriate, giving a POI a name and adding the tourism=attraction tag 
will render it at high zoom levels.

John

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

John Smith wrote:

> The other very useful thing is to tag maxspeed=* limits, although I
> noticed a couple of speed_camera tags tagged with the speed limit
> also...

On this issue, I've noticed that adding the maxspeed tag to ways does 
influence routing choice on Garmins (when they're set to use shortest 
time for routing choice).

With that in mind, I've been adding the maxspeed tag to suburban streets 
which have a classification above "residential".  Otherwise the Garmin 
assumes highway speeds for these.

In route simulation mode, my Garmin Nuvi thoughtfully shows me exactly 
what speed is being simulated as it travels the virtual route.

In fact, my Nuvi recognises only these speeds:

20 km/h
30 km/h
50 km/h
70 km/h
90 km/h
100 km/h
130 km/h

and always takes the speed up to the next step for a simulation.  So if 
maxspeed=50 or maxspeed=60, then 70 km/h is simulated.  70 and 80 get 
simulated as 90, and so on.

If I put a maximum speed into mkgmap based on highway tags, then the 
behaviour is more complicated.  Here the speed gets rounded up, but 
properly rounded so that 50 stays 50, 70 stays 70, and so on.  However, 
if a way has a specific maxspeed tag, then the speed is treated as per 
the previous paragraph.

So bizarrely, if I set up mkgmap so that the highway=unclassified and 
surface=unpaved combination means a speed of 70 km/h then the simulation 
is done at 70 km/h.  But if the unclassified unpaved way also has a 
maxspeed=70 tag, then the simulation is done at 90 km/h

John

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

I wrote:

> So bizarrely, if I set up mkgmap so that the highway=unclassified and 
> surface=unpaved combination means a speed of 70 km/h then the simulation 
> is done at 70 km/h.

Done in the mkgmap "lines" style file like this:

highway=unclassified & surface=unpaved [0x06 road_class=0 road_speed=3 
resolution 21]

John

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Liz]

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, John Smith wrote:
> It also didn't
> 
> > appear on my Garmin when I approached it.
> 
> No idea how to get these show up on garmin's, although I'm guessing as
> some kind of POI that will give you warnings when you are coming close
> to them.
> 
They are in a binary file which can be edited in some "POI uploader" and then 
transferred to the Garmin under Windows, as I recall.


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Re: [talk-au] Cul-de-sac

[Roy Wallace]

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
>
>> On inspection, these blobs are labelled 'turning circle'...  which
>> seems a bit at the extreme end of the definition in these cases.

highway=turning_circle is right. Can be useful especially for those in
large cars/small trucks, to know that they can easily get back out of
the dead-end street..

> One pattern I'm seeing a lot of is a kind of Y or T shape at the end of the
> street, where each end of the Y provides room for maybe one car to park in
> front of a house. I'm mostly sort of ignoring them, not sure if they justify
> a whole extra way or not. A node tag would be nice, but I don't know what to
> call it.

IMHO they justify an extra way, as there is clearly a physical
separation and two separate areas of bitumen. (Go ahead and add a
"whole extra" node + way - HDD storage is cheap! :P)

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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Roy Wallace]

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 10:13 PM, John Smith  wrote:
>
> Speed cameras are a bit of a mess tagging wise, some add a node others
> add a relation, but I don't think any method renders on OSM...
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Speed_trap
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Relation:enforcement
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Traffic_enforcement
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_Signs
>
> etc...

For the record, being "a bit of a mess tagging wise" is not true. This
relation (approved) should be used:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:enforcement

> The other very useful thing is to tag maxspeed=* limits, although I
> noticed a couple of speed_camera tags tagged with the speed limit
> also...

This is incorporated in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:enforcement.

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Re: [talk-au] Victorian routes

[Roy Wallace]

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Craig Feuerherdt
 wrote:
> Happy New Year OSMers!
> Have created a page listing all the Victorian routes (M, A, B & C roads) -
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Victoria%2C_Australia/Routes.

Woah this is a great idea. Have you checked it's legally ok that the
list was derived from "VicRoads Drivers Guide and Main Roads
Victoria"?

If so, and if the necessary further sources exist, it would be great
to extend this to the other states.

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Re: [talk-au] Victorian routes

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Roy Wallace  wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Craig Feuerherdt
>  wrote:
> > Happy New Year OSMers!
> > Have created a page listing all the Victorian routes (M, A, B & C roads)
> -
> >
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Victoria%2C_Australia/Routes
> .
>
> Woah this is a great idea. Have you checked it's legally ok that the
> list was derived from "VicRoads Drivers Guide and Main Roads
> Victoria"?
>

At worst, the list itself is a copyright infringement. That wouldn't affect
the status of any data in OSM. And since it's clearly an internal working
document, rather than something being published in its own right, it's less
likely to raise anyone's ire.

Incidentally, has anyone else noticed that when using a Garmin, it
frequently gives directions using route numbers rather than street names?
Who do I complain about this...www.osmaustralia.com? (Images from
http://www.osmaustralia.org/garmin.php)

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Smith]

2010/1/4 Roy Wallace :
> For the record, being "a bit of a mess tagging wise" is not true. This
> relation (approved) should be used:

"Approved" just means 17 people (out of 25 that voted, out of maybe
100,000 mappers at the time) thought it was an ok way to do things.

On the other hand, JOSM's preset only does a simple POI node method,
which is how I ended up doing them when I added them in the first
place.

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[talk-au] Copyright questions

[John Henderson]

I'm unclear about some issues concerning copyright.  I'd like to put up 
a couple of scenarios and get opinions.

Let's say that many roads in a town are mapped but unnamed in OSM.  And 
street signs are missing.

I go to the local tourist information place and start asking for names. 
  They give me a photocopy of a street directory which shows all the 
names.  But this photocopy has a copyright notice.

Can I enter names from that page into OSM for the already-mapped ways?

Second scenario.  I have the guidebook for a route.  This guidebook is 
essential for following the route because of a lack of signage on the 
route itself.  The guidebook gives turn-by-turn instructions.  The 
roads/paths are already mapped on OSM.  Can I gather them together into 
an OSM route relation using the information from the guidebook?

John


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Re: [talk-au] Copyright questions

[John Smith]

2010/1/4 John Henderson :
> I'm unclear about some issues concerning copyright.  I'd like to put up
> a couple of scenarios and get opinions.
>
> Let's say that many roads in a town are mapped but unnamed in OSM.  And
> street signs are missing.
>
> I go to the local tourist information place and start asking for names.
>  They give me a photocopy of a street directory which shows all the

Why don't you just go to the council, they should have their own list
which they own copyright on and should be able to give you permission
to use. Or just ring them up and ask them to email/fax you the list.

Or you could go a step further and ask them for shape files of their streets :)

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Re: [talk-au] Victorian routes

[Craig Feuerherdt]

Even though the route numbers were sourced from the VicRoads & Main Roads, I
would argue that it is public knowledge in that it is written on signs all
across the state. Just to be sure I have sent an email to the author of the
Main Roads web site - surely he would have the same issue if the VicRoads
data was copyrighted.
Will post outcome once it is known.
Craig

2010/1/4 Steve Bennett 

> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:43 AM, Roy Wallace  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Craig Feuerherdt
>>  wrote:
>> > Happy New Year OSMers!
>> > Have created a page listing all the Victorian routes (M, A, B & C roads)
>> -
>> >
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Victoria%2C_Australia/Routes
>> .
>>
>> Woah this is a great idea. Have you checked it's legally ok that the
>> list was derived from "VicRoads Drivers Guide and Main Roads
>> Victoria"?
>>
>
> At worst, the list itself is a copyright infringement. That wouldn't affect
> the status of any data in OSM. And since it's clearly an internal working
> document, rather than something being published in its own right, it's less
> likely to raise anyone's ire.
>
> Incidentally, has anyone else noticed that when using a Garmin, it
> frequently gives directions using route numbers rather than street names?
> Who do I complain about this...www.osmaustralia.com? (Images from
> http://www.osmaustralia.org/garmin.php)
>
> Steve
>
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Re: [talk-au] Victorian routes

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Craig Feuerherdt  wrote:

> Even though the route numbers were sourced from the VicRoads & Main Roads,
> I would argue that it is public knowledge in that it is written on signs all
> across the state. Just to be sure I have sent an email to the author of the
> Main Roads web site - surely he would have the same issue if the VicRoads
> data was copyrighted.
> Will post outcome once it is known.
>
>
The difference is whether the list was published by VicRoads in that form.
Even if the individual items in the list are not copyright, the list as a
whole can be. I'm pretty sure about this in Australian law. (But like I
said, I don't think it matters much. Even if VicRoads complained, I'd be
inclined to turn it into a GoogleDocs or something, shared just amongst us -
perfectly valid for personal research.)

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Copyright questions

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:16 AM, John Henderson  wrote:

> I'm unclear about some issues concerning copyright.  I'd like to put up
> a couple of scenarios and get opinions.
>
> Let's say that many roads in a town are mapped but unnamed in OSM.  And
> street signs are missing.
>
> I go to the local tourist information place and start asking for names.
>  They give me a photocopy of a street directory which shows all the
> names.  But this photocopy has a copyright notice.
>
> Can I enter names from that page into OSM for the already-mapped ways?
>

This is very similar to a question I asked recently on the main OSM list.
There is a real absence of copyright lawyers (let alone, Australian
copyright lawyers) around the place, to give definitive answers. Since the
issue seems to revolve around how "systematic" and "substantial" the copying
of information is, it probably depends how many streets are in question. If
there are 100 streets in the area, and you can get the names of 80 by
observation or other means, and you copy 20, my hunch is that's ok... but
then, I'm a bit more casual about this, than other people.


>
> Second scenario.  I have the guidebook for a route.  This guidebook is
> essential for following the route because of a lack of signage on the
> route itself.  The guidebook gives turn-by-turn instructions.  The
> roads/paths are already mapped on OSM.  Can I gather them together into
> an OSM route relation using the information from the guidebook?
>
>
That's trickier. It depends what the route is, who invented it, etc. For
example, I don't think you could reasonably add routes from "Bike Tours
around Victoria", which were researched, invented, and described by Kate
Blunden.  But if you're talking about some route which is well known in
public knowledge, and you're just relying on the guidebook for a definitive
description...I don't know. This seems like an area to tread more carefully.

I've come across a similar situation with mapping bike routes that
incorporate back streets, with the difference that those tend to be
physically signed.

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Cul-de-sac

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Roy Wallace  wrote:

>
> IMHO they justify an extra way, as there is clearly a physical
> separation and two separate areas of bitumen. (Go ahead and add a
> "whole extra" node + way - HDD storage is cheap! :P)
>

HDD storage is the least of my considerations in questions like this. I
think it's a valid question where to draw the line between a road and a
driveway etc.

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Copyright questions

[Michael Hampson]

While on this topic.

Blue Mountains City Council have posted this document. It's not the best but
a start, can it be copied as it lacks an copyright information that I can
find?

Select the first result, couldn't find the direct link.
http://www.bmcc.nsw.gov.au/index.cfm?cx=018081763861296252136%3An58dywkggym&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=Bike+Plan+2020&sa=Search&s=C576E07E-3048-1075-63533E928C097BE8#1131

Thanks and Happy New Year to all,

Michael


On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:35 AM, John Smith wrote:

> 2010/1/4 John Henderson :
> > I'm unclear about some issues concerning copyright.  I'd like to put up
> > a couple of scenarios and get opinions.
> >
> > Let's say that many roads in a town are mapped but unnamed in OSM.  And
> > street signs are missing.
> >
> > I go to the local tourist information place and start asking for names.
> >  They give me a photocopy of a street directory which shows all the
>
> Why don't you just go to the council, they should have their own list
> which they own copyright on and should be able to give you permission
> to use. Or just ring them up and ask them to email/fax you the list.
>
> Or you could go a step further and ask them for shape files of their
> streets :)
>
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Re: [talk-au] Copyright questions

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Michael Hampson wrote:

> While on this topic.
>
> Blue Mountains City Council have posted this document. It's not the best
> but a start, can it be copied as it lacks an copyright information that I
> can find?
>
> Select the first result, couldn't find the direct link.
>
> http://www.bmcc.nsw.gov.au/index.cfm?cx=018081763861296252136%3An58dywkggym&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=Bike+Plan+2020&sa=Search&s=C576E07E-3048-1075-63533E928C097BE8#1131
>
>
That page has a notice at the bottom: "Blue Mountains City Council © 2009".
So, no, you can't "copy" from it. You can use it as a source of information.
There's no clear distinction between the two.

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Alcohol Free Zones

[Craig Feuerherdt]

The "area=yes" option also works.
People want to know that an AFZ exists. People will see the signs when they
get there to determine if they can have alcohol on this side of the road or
not. It is a level of accuracy that I am not sure is warranted by the
creation of another polygon (which also makes editing difficult), hence the
reason I suggested a relation.
I am not beholded to 1 method over the other, it all comes down to
consistency.


2010/1/1 John Smith 

> 2010/1/1 Steve Bennett :
> > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Craig Feuerherdt
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> I know Bendigo has an 'alcohol free zone' which would be useful to
> >> capture.
> >> Initial thoughts are that it is best represented as a relation, made up
> of
> >> the ways (roads etc) that form the outer boundary. Just need to define a
> new
> >> relation 'type' (Alcohol Free Zone) and 'restriction' (alcohol?).
> Start/end
> >> times may also be a consideration in some places as well. And then, of
> >> course, there is the rendering.
> >>
> >
> > Why not just an "area=yes" closed way, that overlaps other ways where
> > appropriate? Most of the edges of the zone will probably be existing
> ways,
> > like roads and parks, as noticed, but is that always the case? What's the
> > benefit of a relation rather than an area...I guess the fact that you can
> > have a multipolygon?
>
> I can understand that there is a similar benefit to having a single
> set of ways and using them for multiple routes instead of trying to
> use new ways to describe something, that said I'm still not sure if
> this is the best way to describe alcohol free zones if they diverge on
> a way, for example, only one side of the way is an alcohol free zone.
>
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Re: [talk-au] Copyright questions

[John Henderson]

Steve Bennett wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:16 AM, John Henderson  > wrote:
> 
> I'm unclear about some issues concerning copyright.  I'd like to put up
> a couple of scenarios and get opinions.
> 
> Let's say that many roads in a town are mapped but unnamed in OSM.  And
> street signs are missing.
> 
> I go to the local tourist information place and start asking for names.
>  They give me a photocopy of a street directory which shows all the
> names.  But this photocopy has a copyright notice.
> 
> Can I enter names from that page into OSM for the already-mapped ways?
> 
> 
> This is very similar to a question I asked recently on the main OSM 
> list. There is a real absence of copyright lawyers (let alone, 
> Australian copyright lawyers) around the place, to give definitive 
> answers. Since the issue seems to revolve around how "systematic" and 
> "substantial" the copying of information is, it probably depends how 
> many streets are in question. If there are 100 streets in the area, and 
> you can get the names of 80 by observation or other means, and you copy 
> 20, my hunch is that's ok... but then, I'm a bit more casual about this, 
> than other people.

Understood.  Thanks.

> Second scenario.  I have the guidebook for a route.  This guidebook is
> essential for following the route because of a lack of signage on the
> route itself.  The guidebook gives turn-by-turn instructions.  The
> roads/paths are already mapped on OSM.  Can I gather them together into
> an OSM route relation using the information from the guidebook?
> 
> 
> That's trickier. It depends what the route is, who invented it, etc. For 
> example, I don't think you could reasonably add routes from "Bike Tours 
> around Victoria", which were researched, invented, and described by Kate 
> Blunden.  But if you're talking about some route which is well known in 
> public knowledge, and you're just relying on the guidebook for a 
> definitive description...I don't know. This seems like an area to tread 
> more carefully.

One route I'm thinking about is the Bicentennial National Trail.

http://www.nationaltrail.com.au/

Many signs have disappeared.  But some of is mapped in google (where 
it's given as the road name):

http://tinyurl.com/ya8bsvy

John


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Re: [talk-au] Copyright questions

[Michael Hampson]

Thanks Steve,

Ok, I linked to the document directly via a Google search, and then didn't
see the copyright at the bottom when I looked for that link to post.

Might ring BMCC to see what data they have to share.

Regards,

Michael


On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Michael Hampson wrote:
>
>> While on this topic.
>>
>> Blue Mountains City Council have posted this document. It's not the best
>> but a start, can it be copied as it lacks an copyright information that I
>> can find?
>>
>> Select the first result, couldn't find the direct link.
>>
>> http://www.bmcc.nsw.gov.au/index.cfm?cx=018081763861296252136%3An58dywkggym&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=Bike+Plan+2020&sa=Search&s=C576E07E-3048-1075-63533E928C097BE8#1131
>>
>>
> That page has a notice at the bottom: "Blue Mountains City Council © 2009".
> So, no, you can't "copy" from it. You can use it as a source of information.
> There's no clear distinction between the two.
>
> Steve
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Victorian routes

[Craig Feuerherdt]

I took to route numbers from the Mainroads web site & have used the VicRoads
document for visual comparison against OSM, so the real copyright may be
with the Mainroads web site (which I am still awaiting a response from the
site author).
Agree a GoogleDoc is another alternative if it gets ugly :)
I notice you haven't made any changes to the page yet - what have(n't) you
been doing :D


2010/1/4 Steve Bennett 

> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Craig Feuerherdt <
> craigfeuerhe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Even though the route numbers were sourced from the VicRoads & Main Roads,
>> I would argue that it is public knowledge in that it is written on signs all
>> across the state. Just to be sure I have sent an email to the author of the
>> Main Roads web site - surely he would have the same issue if the VicRoads
>> data was copyrighted.
>> Will post outcome once it is known.
>>
>>
> The difference is whether the list was published by VicRoads in that form.
> Even if the individual items in the list are not copyright, the list as a
> whole can be. I'm pretty sure about this in Australian law. (But like I
> said, I don't think it matters much. Even if VicRoads complained, I'd be
> inclined to turn it into a GoogleDocs or something, shared just amongst us -
> perfectly valid for personal research.)
>
> Steve
>
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Re: [talk-au] Cul-de-sac

[Roy Wallace]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Roy Wallace  wrote:
>>
>> IMHO they justify an extra way, as there is clearly a physical
>> separation and two separate areas of bitumen. (Go ahead and add a
>> "whole extra" node + way - HDD storage is cheap! :P)
>
> HDD storage is the least of my considerations in questions like this. I
> think it's a valid question where to draw the line between a road and a
> driveway etc.

Well, if there's a physical road sitting there, add a way. As for what
value of highway=* to use, that's a little fuzzier sometimes.

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Re: [talk-au] Victorian routes

[Mark Pulley]

Quoting Craig Feuerherdt :

> I notice you haven't made any changes to the page yet - what have(n't) you
> been doing :D

I can add some details as I am currently mapping my trip in November  
(!) to Melbourne and back (down via Mount Beauty, back via  
Shepparton), adding some relations as I go. In the table some  
relations have been added as 'Yes', I was thinking it might be more  
useful to have the relation number (e.g. 373955 for B410). What does  
everyone think?

Incidentally, I've noticed that the route numbers and route names  
aren't showing in Mapnik for relations. As an experiment, I added a  
stub for C528 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/374047 )  
using someone else's trace and my voice recording of the route number.  
I placed highway=secondary into the relation rather than the way, and  
the route number shows. Should we be doing this for all relations?  
There wasn't a road name sign, so I don't know yet whether this will  
help make names show up.

Mark P.
---
"They offered to transport me back to any point in history that I would
  care to go, and so I had them send me back to last Thursday night, so
  I could pay my phone bill on time."
  (Weird Al Yankovic, "Everything You Know Is Wrong")



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Re: [talk-au] Victorian routes

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Craig Feuerherdt  wrote:

> I notice you haven't made any changes to the page yet - what have(n't) you
> been doing :D
>
>
I'm at work!

In other news, yesterday I injured myself mapping this area:
http://osm.org/go/ug...@ou - on "Lactic Acid". Pretty cool how Garmin can
route you along MTB tracks contributed by some other OSM person. There's
only one track missing from that area now...question is anyone brave enough
to attempt "Bandages or Glory", a competition downhill track. Not me, in any
case :)

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Copyright questions

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:51 AM, John Henderson  wrote:

>
> One route I'm thinking about is the Bicentennial National Trail.
>
> http://www.nationaltrail.com.au/
>
> Many signs have disappeared.  But some of is mapped in google (where
> it's given as the road name):
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ya8bsvy
>
>
>
Yeah, that's a curious one. I have some topo maps where it's marked in some
places (nearish Healesville), then it disappears again. Personally, I'd mark
it, but try not to be too "systematic" about it. Heh. It's a pretty dumb
situation really.

I sort of think...why is map of a route in a book copyright, if the route
itself isn't? Or to put it differently, why isn't the physical trail
copyright? It's just the same information as in the book, only thousands of
times larger.

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:14 AM, John Henderson  wrote:

> and always takes the speed up to the next step for a simulation.  So if
> maxspeed=50 or maxspeed=60, then 70 km/h is simulated.  70 and 80 get
> simulated as 90, and so on.
>
> Bizarre. Any idea why?

Steve
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Re: [talk-au] Invisible POI's

[John Henderson]

Steve Bennett wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:14 AM, John Henderson  > wrote:
> 
> and always takes the speed up to the next step for a simulation.  So if
> maxspeed=50 or maxspeed=60, then 70 km/h is simulated.  70 and 80 get
> simulated as 90, and so on.
> 
> Bizarre. Any idea why?

I suppose one possibility is an imperial/metric conversion error in 
firmware.

I've read elsewhere that the Garmin speed steps are various multiples of 
10 miles/hour.  The ones I'm seeing aren't - they're rounded to the 
metric system.

John

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[talk-au] Distinguish between National, State etc parks

[Craig Feuerherdt]

How do we distinguish between National Parks, State Parks, State Forests and
the like?
Have started adding forest areas from the landsat imagery and have been
attributing as "natural=wood", but I haven't found anything that would allow
me to better distinguish these areas. Obviously a National park is totally
different from a State Park in terms of what can/not be done. It would also
be good to link the polygons off to the relevant web site (such as
www.parkweb.vic.gov.au in the case of Victoria).
This issue isn't as simple as stipulating a "manager" because some National
Parks not managed by Parks Victoria etc.
Thoughts?
Cheers
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Re: [talk-au] Relations, road names and numbers

[Mark Pulley]

Quoting myself :

> Incidentally, I've noticed that the route numbers and route names
> aren't showing in Mapnik for relations. As an experiment, I added a
> stub for C528 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/374047 )
> using someone else's trace and my voice recording of the route number.
> I placed highway=secondary into the relation rather than the way, and
> the route number shows. Should we be doing this for all relations?
> There wasn't a road name sign, so I don't know yet whether this will
> help make names show up.

As an experiment, I tried this on Tawonga Gap Road. Previously to my  
last edit, the route number was in relation, highway=secondary and the  
road name was on the way. The name showed but not the route number. I  
moved both the road name and highway=secondary to the relation - now  
the route number and road name shows up.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/22737466
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/374114

The question is, should we move "highway=" onto the relation for all  
relations? There's probably a fix for Mapnik to save editing every  
relation we've done, so I've added a ticket to OSM.
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2599

Mark P.
---
"They offered to transport me back to any point in history that I would
  care to go, and so I had them send me back to last Thursday night, so
  I could pay my phone bill on time."
  (Weird Al Yankovic, "Everything You Know Is Wrong")



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Re: [talk-au] Victorian routes

[John Smith]

2010/1/4 Mark Pulley :
> Incidentally, I've noticed that the route numbers and route names
> aren't showing in Mapnik for relations. As an experiment, I added a

I'm working on this still, I've been toying with a pre-processor to
add custom highway shields to the map, but the lookup table still
needs work to make it more efficient...

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Custom_Highway_Shields

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Re: [talk-au] Victorian routes

[John Smith]

2010/1/3 Craig Feuerherdt :
> Happy New Year OSMers!
> Have created a page listing all the Victorian routes (M, A, B & C roads) -
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Victoria%2C_Australia/Routes.
> It is a work in progress, however I have gone through a reasonable portion
> of the rural areas of the state.
> Hopefully this helps everyone in the goal of mapping all the major route of
> Victoria. As you will see there are quite a few un-mapped routes.
> There are a few attributing issues (highlighted in the notes) and some roads
> may be mapped, but just weren't visible at the scale I was viewing it at. As
> you make corrections, please update the table.
> Part way through I thought it would have been useful to put in a description
> of the C roads ie "Between Boort and Sea Lake" to assist people locating the
> road. Will leave that to another time.

Any idea if/how/where to get this info for other states?

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Re: [talk-au] Copyright questions

[John Smith]

2010/1/4 Steve Bennett :
> That page has a notice at the bottom: "Blue Mountains City Council © 2009".
> So, no, you can't "copy" from it. You can use it as a source of information.
> There's no clear distinction between the two.

Even without a copyright notice, unless something is explicitly noted
as public domain, copyright exists the moment content is created
and/or published...

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