Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On 10/8/22 12:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Cleared a note to add a ford / river-crossing to a road in Cape York: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1025490234, & added both a "ford" node, & also changed the actual river crossing to a track with 4wd only & similar tags. I am getting less 'comfortable' with tagging the road class (track in this and other cases) as an indication of road condition (rough). A track in Canberra (Way: Forest Drive (37058806) "highway"="track" "surface"="gravel" "tracktype"="grade2" "width"="5" https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/37058806) may well be in better condition than, say, Way: Great Central Road (186988736) "highway"="primary" "surface"="unpaved" https://www.openstreetmap.org/way186988736 Way: Tanami Road (188690200) "highway"="primary" "surface"="unpaved" https://www.openstreetmap.org/way188690200 etc... The issue is clear ... road classification should be about the use/importance of the road. The road condition should be tagged using surface/roughness tags ... the problem of rendering is the issue that mappers (including me) try to address some times by tagging for the render... and is hard to resist! ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 at 17:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > I believe that particular road gets closed for the wet season .. and has a > locked gate ... > Yes, most of the Cape is closed to tourists during the Wet, but most of the rivers still need fording during the rest of the year. Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On 11/8/22 09:16, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 at 02:13, Bob Cameron wrote: eg a section of road (as a ford way - often concrete) has to be joined to the crossing stream. That's why I changed the section of road crossing teh river to a track, with extra details added to that section. I believe that particular road gets closed for the wet season .. and has a locked gate ... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On Aug 10, 2022, at 11:45 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > I wasn't familiar with "Drop-Bears" (until I looked up that good-natured hoax) > > Neither was this lady! :-) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwmoiUrC02g I have no idea how everybody (except for the British reporter, of course, until the joke was over) kept a straight face through those couple of minutes. Especially the koala. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 at 16:41, stevea wrote: > So, hazard=wild_animals Yep, I'll give it a day or two to see if there's any response on the talk page, then add it. I wasn't familiar with "Drop-Bears" (until I looked up that good-natured > hoax) Neither was this lady! :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwmoiUrC02g Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On Aug 10, 2022, at 11:32 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > Imagine how Australian you'll feel being the one to add the row to that wiki > with "Crocodiles are present." > > Snakes, spiders. sharks, Drop-Bears ... :-) Oops, I meant hazard=leeches (not hazard:leeches). Gotta get the syntax right. So, hazard=wild_animals (or, I'd be OK with hazard=crocodiles, as the former is a bit vague). I wasn't familiar with "Drop-Bears" (until I looked up that good-natured hoax). Lotsa fun in this project, and there's nuthin' wrong with that. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 at 15:15, stevea wrote: > On Aug 10, 2022, at 10:05 PM, Andrew Harvey > wrote: > > The hazard tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:hazard seems > like a good fit to warn of crocs. > > Agreed: I shared some input with the author on this tag. It is > deliberately "open-ended" with rough/loose categories right now of area > hazards, traffic hazards, water (-related) hazards... I have raised it on the wiki page there https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:hazard. Somebody else had previously raised hazard=wild_animals but it was decided that animal_crossing was sufficient, but really, it's a completely separate thing. Imagine how Australian you'll feel being the one to add the row to that > wiki with "Crocodiles are present." > Snakes, spiders. sharks, Drop-Bears ... :-) Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On Aug 10, 2022, at 10:05 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote: > The hazard tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:hazard seems like a > good fit to warn of crocs. Agreed: I shared some input with the author on this tag. It is deliberately "open-ended" with rough/loose categories right now of area hazards, traffic hazards, water (-related) hazards...with the latter being both likely a good sub-category for crocs (I could be wrong, though I think they are aquatic), as it already has hazard:leeches (and I quote from its Description column): "Leeches are present." See the wiki, stroke your chin, talk to a fellow mapper (or three) about how they might like to map crocs, perhaps add a row of hazard:crocodiles to the wiki and tag accordingly (Bob's your uncle). Imagine how Australian you'll feel being the one to add the row to that wiki with "Crocodiles are present." ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
The hazard tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:hazard seems like a good fit to warn of crocs. On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 at 01:57, Bob Cameron wrote: > The Gregory River Doomadgee Road crossing near Tirranna Springs Qld has > a "not on foot" warning sign as the water over the causeway runs very > fast. Hard to know if it's a legal direction though. > I think official signage telling you not to is sufficient for the access tags, even if technically you may not be breaking any laws. This would line up with the general guideline of mapping what's on the ground and not mapping per legislation. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 at 02:13, Bob Cameron wrote: > > eg a section of road (as a ford way - often concrete) has to be joined > to the crossing stream. That's why I changed the section of road crossing teh river to a track, with extra details added to that section. And not just accept the ID editor suggestion of a node ford > & on that topic, iD says add "ford" as road structure & gives ford type as "radier"? Does anybody have any idea what a radier ford is, as the only translation I can find suggests "raft"? I asked this on the Ford wiki page yesterday but no response yet: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:ford#Ford_type_=_radier? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 at 01:57, Bob Cameron wrote: > The Gregory River Doomadgee Road crossing near Tirranna Springs Qld has > a "not on foot" warning sign as the water over the causeway runs very > fast. Hard to know if it's a legal direction though. > & how about if you then have one of these posted? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Crocodile_warning_sign,_Slade_Point,_2016.jpg Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
Thanks, everybody, for your comments! It's always good to open another can of worms! :-) Yes, I understand that access=no is a legal thing, but how do we distinguish between "yes you are able to but no you shouldn't"? On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 at 20:58, Adam Steer wrote: > A little note to the discussion - the foot/ animal traffic modes = no are > crocodile related, right? > > Yes, possible. Recommended? Definitely not according to every google-able > bit of information about the place. > Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking - yes, you could easily swim across the river, but is that a good idea? :-( https://environment.des.qld.gov.au/wildlife/animals/living-with/crocodiles/croc-wise > For vehicles I think it's generally worth indicating something about > whether a ford / river needs a proper 4wd. Here I'm thinking of one I know > well, where some ways to the river are easily SUV ok - but you need great > clearance, a lot of grip and a high air intake to make the river crossing. > Yep! I've also driven across river crossings & I don't think the water has actually reached the wheel hubs, but at other times, those crossings can be 2m deep, very fast flowing & totally impassable. I hope I haven't misinterpreted the conversation... > Not as far as I'm concerned! Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
I'd like to see some ford node vs way and culvert detail Dian. Took me a while to understand it all, so may help a newbie. eg a section of road (as a ford way - often concrete) has to be joined to the crossing stream. If there is a "low water level" pipe/culvert that is an additional tunnel. And not just accept the ID editor suggestion of a node ford Bob On 10/8/22 12:25, Dian Ågesson wrote: Hey Graeme, The 4WD_only tags and track types are already documented on the roads subpage of the Tagging Guidelines. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines/Roads Do you think we should be adding detail for fords specifically? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
The Gregory River Doomadgee Road crossing near Tirranna Springs Qld has a "not on foot" warning sign as the water over the causeway runs very fast. Hard to know if it's a legal direction though. On 10/8/22 20:58, Adam Steer wrote: A little note to the discussion - the foot/ animal traffic modes = no are crocodile related, right? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
A little note to the discussion - the foot/ animal traffic modes = no are crocodile related, right? Yes, possible. Recommended? Definitely not according to every google-able bit of information about the place. For vehicles I think it's generally worth indicating something about whether a ford / river needs a proper 4wd. Here I'm thinking of one I know well, where some ways to the river are easily SUV ok - but you need great clearance, a lot of grip and a high air intake to make the river crossing. I hope I haven't misinterpreted the conversation... Cheers Adam On Wed, Aug 10, 2022, 04:09 Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > Cleared a note to add a ford / river-crossing to a road in Cape York: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1025490234, & added both a "ford" node, > & also changed the actual river crossing to a track with 4wd only & similar > tags. > > Wondering if we should include those sort of details in the Guidelines? eg > > 4wd_only=extreme > > bicycle=no > > foot=no > > highway=track > > horse=no > > motor_vehicle=yes > > smoothness=horrible > > tracktype=grade8 > > & possibly even hazard=wild_animals + animals=crocodile! > > Thanks > > Graeme > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On 8/10/22 03:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Cleared a note to add a ford / river-crossing to a road in Cape York: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1025490234, & added both a "ford" node, & also changed the actual river crossing to a track with 4wd only & similar tags. Wondering if we should include those sort of details in the Guidelines? eg 4wd_only=extreme bicycle=no foot=no highway=track horse=no motor_vehicle=yes smoothness=horrible tracktype=grade8 & possibly even hazard=wild_animals + animals=crocodile! (not from AU or Queensland but) To add to what Ian has said already, the foot, horse, bicycle etc. are legal access tags - if that mode of transport isn't legally permitted to cross there then e.g. horse=no would be correct, but otherwise not. A tag such as horse_scale can be used to suggest how appropriate something is for that mode of transport, much like the example already uses "4wd_only=extreme" alongside "motor_vehicle=yes". Personally I'd be very reticent about tagging "smoothness" remotely as well. Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 at 12:25, Dian Ågesson wrote: > Hey Graeme, > > The 4WD_only tags and track types are already documented on the roads > subpage of the Tagging Guidelines. > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines/Roads > > > Do you think we should be adding detail for fords specifically? > Yep, that's what I was thinking, along the lines of: If mapping deep river crossings, consider adding tags such as these: (list above)? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Adding river crossings to Guidelines "road quality / 4wd-only"?
Hey Graeme, The 4WD_only tags and track types are already documented on the roads subpage of the Tagging Guidelines. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines/Roads Do you think we should be adding detail for fords specifically? Dian On 2022-08-10 02:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Cleared a note to add a ford / river-crossing to a road in Cape York: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1025490234, & added both a "ford" node, & also changed the actual river crossing to a track with 4wd only & similar tags. Wondering if we should include those sort of details in the Guidelines? eg 4wd_only=extreme bicycle=no foot=no highway=track horse=no motor_vehicle=yes smoothness=horrible tracktype=grade8 & possibly even hazard=wild_animals + animals=crocodile! Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
