Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Sebastian Spiess]

On 8/9/20 3:14 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 10:12, cleary mailto:o...@97k.com>>
> wrote:
>
>
> Reading what is stated by Queensland Health on its website, as you
> have quoted it, I think that taking the information and
> incorporating into OSM is one of the areas that requires the
> permission of Queensland Health. 
>
>  
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 13:11, Andrew Harvey  > wrote:
>
>
> Yeah I don't see how we can use that, for starters "No
> Derivatives" means we can't adapt it into a new work, which is
> exactly what incorporating it in OSM is doing. 
>
>
> Thanks, fellas.
>
> Had hoped that it may have been OK :-(
>
> Ahh well, will write them a letter & see what they say?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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A bit late to the thread here but I'm curious who's going to treat me at
a clinic? From Cleary's explanation I take it there is no need to have a
'medical practitioner' there at all?

I think it makes sense to document the usage of tags for AU and rural AU
in the wiki as suggested

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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 10:12, cleary  wrote:

>
> Reading what is stated by Queensland Health on its website, as you have
> quoted it, I think that taking the information and incorporating into OSM
> is one of the areas that requires the permission of Queensland Health.


On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 13:11, Andrew Harvey  wrote:

>
> Yeah I don't see how we can use that, for starters "No Derivatives" means
> we can't adapt it into a new work, which is exactly what incorporating it
> in OSM is doing.
>

Thanks, fellas.

Had hoped that it may have been OK :-(

Ahh well, will write them a letter & see what they say?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Andrew Harvey]

On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 10:19, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> All of the search results that I've looked at so far have referred back to
> this Qld Health page:https://www.health.qld.gov.au/services, so I'm
> wondering whether we're allowed to use it, to access details of all Qld
> hospitals?
>
> Health copyright (https://www.health.qld.gov.au/global/copyright-statement)
> is shown as being under a Creative Commons Attribution No Derivatives 3.0
> Australia 
> licence, & states
> "In essence, you are free to copy and communicate the work in its current
> form, as long as you attribute Queensland Health as the source of the
> copyright material and abide by the licence terms".
>

Yeah I don't see how we can use that, for starters "No Derivatives" means
we can't adapt it into a new work, which is exactly what incorporating it
in OSM is doing.
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[cleary]

Graeme, In regard to your question about copyright.  

Reading what is stated by Queensland Health on its website, as you have quoted 
it, I think that taking the information and incorporating into OSM is one of 
the areas that requires the permission of Queensland Health. 



On Mon, 7 Sep 2020, at 12:17 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> Continuing on with this, I've started looking at hospitals shown on the 
> Overpass search & updating their details based purely on a search for 
> "Whichever Hospital" (& have so far already found another normal 
> medical centre tagged as a hospital!). 
> 
> All of the search results that I've looked at so far have referred back 
> to this Qld Health page:https://www.health.qld.gov.au/services, so I'm  
> wondering whether we're allowed to use it, to access details of all Qld 
> hospitals?
> 
> Health copyright 
> (https://www.health.qld.gov.au/global/copyright-statement) is shown as 
> being under a Creative Commons Attribution No Derivatives 3.0 Australia 
>  licence, & 
> states
> "In essence, you are free to copy and communicate the work in its 
> current form, as long as you attribute Queensland Health as the source 
> of the copyright material and abide by the licence terms".
> 
> The link for further permission to use their copyright material says:
> "Queensland Health permission is required to: 
> 
>  * adapt material from the Queensland Health website or other source 
> where it is not expressly permitted by a copyright notice or Creative 
> Commons licence.
> 
>  * use material from the Queensland Health website or other source in a 
> manner that is expressly prohibited by the copyright notice or Creative 
> Commons licence.
> 
> Queensland Health permission is *not required to: *
> 
> * * * * provide a hyperlink to any Queensland Health internet page from 
> another website*
> 
>  * do any act that is expressly permitted by a copyright notice or 
> creative commons licence on the material. 
> 
>  * print, download or *communicate whole or parts of documents sourced 
> from any Queensland Health internet page*, provided that it is not 
> expressly prohibited by a copyright notice or Creative Commons licence, 
> the source is attributed (see below) and the material remains 
> unaltered."
> 
> So, would we need to go through the full permission & waiver process to 
> use data off that Health page?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
> 
> 
> On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 at 09:28, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:25, Ewen Hill  wrote:
> >> We also have the grey area of Bush Nursing Centres that are clearly not 
> >> hospitals but are the best place to head to in an emergency and may be the 
> >> difference when you are looking at two equal sized communities. The ten 
> >> staff sounds arbitrary. 
> >> 
> >> Shouldn't the difference be based on the capability of the premises to 
> >> resuscitate, handle compound fractures and prolong life until the patient 
> >> can be moved to a more appropriate facility rather than a "must have ten 
> >> medical staff"?
> > 
> > Good points, Ewen. 
> > 
> > Thanks, everyone - you've convinced me that I was looking at it the wrong 
> > way & that these type of facilities should stay as hospitals.
> > 
> >>   Further more, should it be defined as "an official hospital or the first 
> >> place of medical support in a rural setting"?
> > 
> > You're probably correct but I think we'd have issues changing the main 
> > definition of hospital, as it wouldn't suit the Western European / US point 
> > of view :-( 
> > 
> > As Cleary mentioned earlier: "Perhaps the Australian Guidelines should 
> > permit the "hospital" tag where that is consistent with usage of the term 
> > by the local community, would be a lot easier to do, so I'll make that 
> > amendment if there's no major objection? 
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Graeme
> > 
> ___
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>

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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Ewen Hill]

Hi Graeme,
  You may also want to look at the National Health Services Directory
operated by Health Direct which maybe where this information comes from.
See https://about.healthdirect.gov.au/nhsd however the chances of getting a
waiver has about the same probability of me getting a beer over a bar atm.

Ewen

On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 10:19, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Continuing on with this, I've started looking at hospitals shown on the
> Overpass search & updating their details based purely on a search for
> "Whichever Hospital" (& have so far already found another normal medical
> centre tagged as a hospital!).
>
> All of the search results that I've looked at so far have referred back to
> this Qld Health page:https://www.health.qld.gov.au/services, so I'm
> wondering whether we're allowed to use it, to access details of all Qld
> hospitals?
>
> Health copyright (https://www.health.qld.gov.au/global/copyright-statement)
> is shown as being under a Creative Commons Attribution No Derivatives 3.0
> Australia 
> licence, & states
> "In essence, you are free to copy and communicate the work in its current
> form, as long as you attribute Queensland Health as the source of the
> copyright material and abide by the licence terms".
>
> The link for further permission to use their copyright material says:
>
> "Queensland Health permission is required to:
>
>-
>
>adapt material from the Queensland Health website or other source
>where it is not expressly permitted by a copyright notice or Creative
>Commons licence.
>-
>
>use material from the Queensland Health website or other source in a
>manner that is expressly prohibited by the copyright notice or Creative
>Commons licence.
>
> Queensland Health permission is *not required to: *
>
>-
>
>* provide a hyperlink to any Queensland Health internet page from
>another website*
>-
>
>do any act that is expressly permitted by a copyright notice or
>creative commons licence on the material.
>-
>
>print, download or *communicate whole or parts of documents sourced
>from any Queensland Health internet page*, provided that it is not
>expressly prohibited by a copyright notice or Creative Commons licence, the
>source is attributed (see below) and the material remains unaltered."
>
> So, would we need to go through the full permission & waiver process to
> use data off that Health page?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 at 09:28, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:25, Ewen Hill  wrote:
>>
>>> We also have the grey area of Bush Nursing Centres that are clearly not
>>> hospitals but are the best place to head to in an emergency and may be the
>>> difference when you are looking at two equal sized communities. The ten
>>> staff sounds arbitrary.
>>>
>>> Shouldn't the difference be based on the capability of the premises to
>>> resuscitate, handle compound fractures and prolong life until the patient
>>> can be moved to a more appropriate facility rather than a "must have ten
>>> medical staff"?
>>>
>>
>> Good points, Ewen.
>>
>> Thanks, everyone - you've convinced me that I was looking at it the wrong
>> way & that these type of facilities should stay as hospitals.
>>
>>   Further more, should it be defined as "an official hospital or the
>>> first place of medical support in a rural setting"?
>>>
>>
>> You're probably correct but I think we'd have issues changing the main
>> definition of hospital, as it wouldn't suit the Western European / US point
>> of view :-(
>>
>> As Cleary mentioned earlier: "Perhaps the Australian Guidelines should
>> permit the "hospital" tag where that is consistent with usage of the term
>> by the local community, would be a lot easier to do, so I'll make that
>> amendment if there's no major objection?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
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>


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Ewen Hill
Internet Development Australia
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Continuing on with this, I've started looking at hospitals shown on the
Overpass search & updating their details based purely on a search for
"Whichever Hospital" (& have so far already found another normal medical
centre tagged as a hospital!).

All of the search results that I've looked at so far have referred back to
this Qld Health page:https://www.health.qld.gov.au/services, so I'm
wondering whether we're allowed to use it, to access details of all Qld
hospitals?

Health copyright (https://www.health.qld.gov.au/global/copyright-statement)
is shown as being under a Creative Commons Attribution No Derivatives 3.0
Australia 
licence, & states
"In essence, you are free to copy and communicate the work in its current
form, as long as you attribute Queensland Health as the source of the
copyright material and abide by the licence terms".

The link for further permission to use their copyright material says:

"Queensland Health permission is required to:

   -

   adapt material from the Queensland Health website or other source where
   it is not expressly permitted by a copyright notice or Creative Commons
   licence.
   -

   use material from the Queensland Health website or other source in a
   manner that is expressly prohibited by the copyright notice or Creative
   Commons licence.

Queensland Health permission is *not required to: *

   -

   * provide a hyperlink to any Queensland Health internet page from
   another website*
   -

   do any act that is expressly permitted by a copyright notice or creative
   commons licence on the material.
   -

   print, download or *communicate whole or parts of documents sourced from
   any Queensland Health internet page*, provided that it is not expressly
   prohibited by a copyright notice or Creative Commons licence, the source is
   attributed (see below) and the material remains unaltered."

So, would we need to go through the full permission & waiver process to use
data off that Health page?

Thanks

Graeme


On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 at 09:28, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:25, Ewen Hill  wrote:
>
>> We also have the grey area of Bush Nursing Centres that are clearly not
>> hospitals but are the best place to head to in an emergency and may be the
>> difference when you are looking at two equal sized communities. The ten
>> staff sounds arbitrary.
>>
>> Shouldn't the difference be based on the capability of the premises to
>> resuscitate, handle compound fractures and prolong life until the patient
>> can be moved to a more appropriate facility rather than a "must have ten
>> medical staff"?
>>
>
> Good points, Ewen.
>
> Thanks, everyone - you've convinced me that I was looking at it the wrong
> way & that these type of facilities should stay as hospitals.
>
>   Further more, should it be defined as "an official hospital or the first
>> place of medical support in a rural setting"?
>>
>
> You're probably correct but I think we'd have issues changing the main
> definition of hospital, as it wouldn't suit the Western European / US point
> of view :-(
>
> As Cleary mentioned earlier: "Perhaps the Australian Guidelines should
> permit the "hospital" tag where that is consistent with usage of the term
> by the local community, would be a lot easier to do, so I'll make that
> amendment if there's no major objection?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 20:25, Ewen Hill  wrote:

> We also have the grey area of Bush Nursing Centres that are clearly not
> hospitals but are the best place to head to in an emergency and may be the
> difference when you are looking at two equal sized communities. The ten
> staff sounds arbitrary.
>
> Shouldn't the difference be based on the capability of the premises to
> resuscitate, handle compound fractures and prolong life until the patient
> can be moved to a more appropriate facility rather than a "must have ten
> medical staff"?
>

Good points, Ewen.

Thanks, everyone - you've convinced me that I was looking at it the wrong
way & that these type of facilities should stay as hospitals.

  Further more, should it be defined as "an official hospital or the first
> place of medical support in a rural setting"?
>

You're probably correct but I think we'd have issues changing the main
definition of hospital, as it wouldn't suit the Western European / US point
of view :-(

As Cleary mentioned earlier: "Perhaps the Australian Guidelines should
permit the "hospital" tag where that is consistent with usage of the term
by the local community, would be a lot easier to do, so I'll make that
amendment if there's no major objection?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Ewen Hill]

We also have the grey area of Bush Nursing Centres that are clearly not
hospitals but are the best place to head to in an emergency and may be the
difference when you are looking at two equal sized communities. The ten
staff sounds arbitrary.

Shouldn't the difference be based on the capability of the premises to
resuscitate, handle compound fractures and prolong life until the patient
can be moved to a more appropriate facility rather than a "must have ten
medical staff"?  Further more, should it be defined as "an official
hospital or the first place of medical support in a rural setting"?

Ewen



On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 18:02, Andrew Davidson  wrote:

> On 4/9/20 3:55 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > So does that make 2255 / 222 / or a different tally?
>
> It's 222 but I'm not sure how you got that, I get 200. Did you use
> "amenity=hospital in Queensland" in the wizard?
>
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>


-- 
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Ewen Hill
Internet Development Australia
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Andrew Davidson]

On 4/9/20 3:55 pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

So does that make 2255 / 222 / or a different tally?


It's 222 but I'm not sure how you got that, I get 200. Did you use 
"amenity=hospital in Queensland" in the wizard?


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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au]

Sep 4, 2020, 07:09 by o...@97k.com:

>
> some would not satisfy the definition of "clinic" depending on whether the 10 
> staff (as specified in the OSM wiki)
>
This sounds like wikifiddling to me. I reduced its weight in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Dclinic&diff=2029091&oldid=1996391

>  I reckon the locals would regard the Burketown facility as their hospital 
> even if it is not so named and even if it does not satisfy OSM criteria.
>
Note that OSM maps reality and official government/local referring to something 
under an unusual
 term is not changing type of feature. Prisons should be tagged as prisons, 
even if government
calls them "vocation centers".

If something is clearly not a hospital it should not be tagged as one even if 
official
or local name includes "hospital". Even if locals are referring to them as 
"hospital".
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 13:22, Michael James  wrote:

>
>
> Not sure QAS offers any walk up facilities anymore, the local one here has
> a phone out the front to call for help.
>

Think it may depend a lot on the size of the town?

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 13:28, Andrew Davidson  wrote:

>
> I only get 202 for QLD https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/XGU. Are you searching
> for something other than amenity=hospital and healthcare=hospital ?
>

I searched just amenity=hospital.

Maybe I'm mis-reading the results as it came back:
Loaded – nodes: 2092, ways: 159, relations: 4
Displayed – pois: 72, lines: 0, polygons: 150
So does that make 2255 / 222 / or a different tally?

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 at 15:11, cleary  wrote:

>
>  If this is all the community has and they regard it as their "hospital"
> then I feel reluctant to take it away.
>

Fair enough, & I must admit to having that same thought after I raised it?

The Burketown clinic is NOT a "medical centre". "Medical practitoners"
> (often referred to as "doctors") have a special status in legislation and
> it would usually expected that only registered medical practitioners
> practise in a "medical centre".


I wasn't aware of that? I wonder if that's why a few of them around here
have changed their names over the last while from xxx Medical Centre to xxx
Medical Clinic?

"Amenity=clinic" would probably be the other tag I can suggest, even if the
> Burketown clinic might not satisfy wiki requirements for that tag either.


Until I just looked at the requirements, I wasn't aware of the +/- 10 staff
criteria! I've possibly mapped a few clinics that shouldn't be.

Perhaps the Australian Guidelines should permit the "hospital" tag where
> that is consistent with usage of the term by the local community.


Fair call - once again, comments / thoughts?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[cleary]

The term "hospital" is subject to a lot of interpretation and is an emotionally 
laden issue in many rural communities.

Many of the "hospitals" mapped in NSW rural areas (and presumably in other 
states) do not satisfy the OSM definition of "hospital" and some would not 
satisfy the definition of "clinic" depending on whether the 10 staff (as 
specified in the OSM wiki) should be there at any one time or could be rostered 
one, two or three at a time over the many hours of each working week. These 
health facilities are important to their communities and to visitors. If this 
is all the community has and they regard it as their "hospital" then I feel 
reluctant to take it away.

In the event of an accident or urgent illness, where would local residents or 
visitors go?  They will usually tell you to go to the "hospital" (irrespective 
of its official title).  If one referred to a local map in an emergency, one 
would hope the nearest emergency treatment centre would be clearly identifiable 
on the map.

I reckon the locals would regard the Burketown facility as their hospital even 
if it is not so named and even if it does not satisfy OSM criteria. Further, 
the Queensland Health webpage states that the Burketown clinic provides limited 
"hospital services".  

The Burketown clinic is NOT a "medical centre". "Medical practitoners" (often 
referred to as "doctors") have a special status in legislation and it would 
usually expected that only registered medical practitioners practise in a 
"medical centre". Anyone other than a doctor would work strictly under the 
direction of medical practitioners in that location. That is not how hospitals 
or public health services operate. To my knowledge, "medical centres" in 
Australia are always operated by doctors in private practice. I am confident 
that would not be the case in Burketown.

"Amenity=clinic" would probably be the other tag I can suggest, even if the 
Burketown clinic might not satisfy wiki requirements for that tag either.  
Perhaps the Australian Guidelines should permit the "hospital" tag where that 
is consistent with usage of the term by the local community.   










On Fri, 4 Sep 2020, at 2:51 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> Over the last few days, I've spotted a few places marked as hospitals 
> that aren't.
> 
> Locally, there were two Aged Care homes, then as I looked around 
> further, I spotted another Aged Care home, an Ambulance station in a 
> small country town & an SES station!
> 
> The Ambo station I could almost relate to, as that's where you go for 
> any medical emergency, but none of the others. Incidentally, there is 
> hopefully some progress on them being rendered? 
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3968
> 
> I did an Overpass search for Qld & found ~2100 "hospitals", which seems 
> like a lot?  https://overpass-turbo.eu/# (Don't know if that works or 
> not?), & checking at random, found more Ambo's, Doctor's surgeries & so 
> on also marked.
> 
> I did notice, though, a few of these: 
> https://www.health.qld.gov.au/services/northwest/nwest_burket_hc
> 
> Personally, I would call that a Medical Centre, not a Hospital?, while 
> this https://www.health.qld.gov.au/cq/hospitals/blackwater/services 
> with A&E & inpatients *is* a Hospital.
> 
> What do you all think?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Andrew Davidson]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:53 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> I did an Overpass search for Qld & found ~2100 "hospitals", which seems
> like a lot?  https://overpass-turbo.eu/# (Don't know if that works or
> not?), & checking at random, found more Ambo's, Doctor's surgeries & so on
> also marked.
>
>
I only get 202 for QLD https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/XGU. Are you searching
for something other than amenity=hospital and healthcare=hospital ?
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Re: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Michael James]

That list is for Queensland Health operated facilities not just hospitals so 
yes your right in that particular site would not be a hospital per se.

Not sure where you find a list of accredited hospitals but it is a thing as I 
live in a street with 2 facilities that are accredited as hospitals but only 
one calls itself a hospital.

Not sure QAS offers any walk up facilities anymore, the local one here has a 
phone out the front to call for help.

Michael


From: Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Sent: Friday, 4 September 2020 12:51 PM
To: OSM-Au 
Subject: [talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

Over the last few days, I've spotted a few places marked as hospitals that 
aren't.

Locally, there were two Aged Care homes, then as I looked around further, I 
spotted another Aged Care home, an Ambulance station in a small country town & 
an SES station!

The Ambo station I could almost relate to, as that's where you go for any 
medical emergency, but none of the others. Incidentally, there is hopefully 
some progress on them being rendered? 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3968

I did an Overpass search for Qld & found ~2100 "hospitals", which seems like a 
lot?  https://overpass-turbo.eu/#<https://overpass-turbo.eu/> (Don't know if 
that works or not?), & checking at random, found more Ambo's, Doctor's 
surgeries & so on also marked.

I did notice, though, a few of these: 
https://www.health.qld.gov.au/services/northwest/nwest_burket_hc

Personally, I would call that a Medical Centre, not a Hospital?, while this 
https://www.health.qld.gov.au/cq/hospitals/blackwater/services with A&E & 
inpatients is a Hospital.

What do you all think?

Thanks

Graeme
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[talk-au] Are Health Centres, hospitals

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Over the last few days, I've spotted a few places marked as hospitals that
aren't.

Locally, there were two Aged Care homes, then as I looked around further, I
spotted another Aged Care home, an Ambulance station in a small country
town & an SES station!

The Ambo station I could almost relate to, as that's where you go for any
medical emergency, but none of the others. Incidentally, there is hopefully
some progress on them being rendered?
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3968

I did an Overpass search for Qld & found ~2100 "hospitals", which seems
like a lot?  https://overpass-turbo.eu/# (Don't know if that works or
not?), & checking at random, found more Ambo's, Doctor's surgeries & so on
also marked.

I did notice, though, a few of these:
https://www.health.qld.gov.au/services/northwest/nwest_burket_hc

Personally, I would call that a Medical Centre, not a Hospital?, while this
https://www.health.qld.gov.au/cq/hospitals/blackwater/services with A&E &
inpatients *is* a Hospital.

What do you all think?

Thanks

Graeme
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