Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[Warin]

On 25/06/19 10:47, Ian Sergeant wrote:
I'm with Andrew on this one.  It sounds like your research is likely 
superior to any other recent survey done in the area, and we're not 
wikipedia here - we value ground truth / original research and it 
would be a shame it it couldn't be mirrored in the map.


Personally, I'd change it to

waterway=no
note="blah"

because otherwise an armchair mapper will put it back (and I would 
too, guilty as charged).  It's ugly and non-standard, but I'd do it 
anyway.


+1
I'd use life cycle tagging

abandoned/disused/whatever

disused:waterway=river
note=While present on map, it is not present on the ground - even as an 
old river bed?


I too would be re entering it from the LPI data ... guilty and in error. 
Really needs something in OSM to say it is not here. If it floods then 
there may be a 'river' .. a seldom seen event?


Ian.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 22:52, Andrew Harvey > wrote:


I think you've done a top job detailing the situation, so I'd go
with your findings from on the ground.

We're not here to simply mirror the NSW LPI Base Map, so I
wouldn't worry too much about what it says.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 18:25, cleary mailto:o...@97k.com>> wrote:

In the past, I added some parts of the Gwydir River to the map
using the NSW LPI Base Map because I could not see a clear
waterway on satellite imagery. Since then, I have visited the
area twice and cannot actually find a river where it is shown
on the map. Much of the "river" is in private property but
public roads cross waterways at various locations.

The western end of the Gwydir River seems not to exist except
on the NSW LPI Base Map and maps which have used it as a
source (including OSM).

As far as I can ascertain, the river used to dissipate into
wetlands and, if there was enough water, the seepage from the
wetlands re-formed into waterways. However intensive
irrigation has resulted in such low water flow that the
wetlands are largely dust and water seems never to flow beyond
them (except perhaps in major flood events which are
relatively rare).  Water from the eastern Gwydir may flow west
to the Barwon River via Carole Creek into Gil Gil Creek, via
the Gingham Watercourse and via the Mehi River.  But the
so-called Gwydir River, west of the wetlands, does not appear
to exist except on the LPI Map. And part that of the waterway
that does exist is signposted by the Moree Plains Shire
Council with a different name (Big Leather Watercourse) at the
two places where it crosses public roads.  GNB uses this name
for another branch of the river nearer to Moree but locals,
including the local council, seem to have a different view.

When visiting the area, I found water to be difficult to
discuss with locals as there are some strong points of view.
Maintaining a river on the map may be a political imperative
for government but is not consistent with OSM's philosophy of
mapping what is actually on the ground at particular locations.

After reflection, I think the Gwydir River does not really
exist west of the wetlands and I think it should be deleted
from OSM, even though it is shown on the LPI Base Map. I
propose to delete this section of the river and follow the
local council signposted name for the more westerly waterway
that does actually exist at Morialta and Watercourse Roads.

I would appreciate any views on this issue.



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Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[Ian Sergeant]

I'm with Andrew on this one.  It sounds like your research is likely
superior to any other recent survey done in the area, and we're not
wikipedia here - we value ground truth / original research and it would be
a shame it it couldn't be mirrored in the map.

Personally, I'd change it to

waterway=no
note="blah"

because otherwise an armchair mapper will put it back (and I would too,
guilty as charged).  It's ugly and non-standard, but I'd do it anyway.

Ian.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 22:52, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> I think you've done a top job detailing the situation, so I'd go with your
> findings from on the ground.
>
> We're not here to simply mirror the NSW LPI Base Map, so I wouldn't worry
> too much about what it says.
>
> On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 18:25, cleary  wrote:
>
>> In the past, I added some parts of the Gwydir River to the map using the
>> NSW LPI Base Map because I could not see a clear waterway on satellite
>> imagery. Since then, I have visited the area twice and cannot actually find
>> a river where it is shown on the map. Much of the "river" is in private
>> property but public roads cross waterways at various locations.
>>
>> The western end of the Gwydir River seems not to exist except on the NSW
>> LPI Base Map and maps which have used it as a source (including OSM).
>>
>> As far as I can ascertain, the river used to dissipate into wetlands and,
>> if there was enough water, the seepage from the wetlands re-formed into
>> waterways. However intensive irrigation has resulted in such low water flow
>> that the wetlands are largely dust and water seems never to flow beyond
>> them (except perhaps in major flood events which are relatively rare).
>> Water from the eastern Gwydir may flow west to the Barwon River via Carole
>> Creek into Gil Gil Creek, via the Gingham Watercourse and via the Mehi
>> River.  But the so-called Gwydir River, west of the wetlands, does not
>> appear to exist except on the LPI Map. And part that of the waterway that
>> does exist is signposted by the Moree Plains Shire Council with a different
>> name (Big Leather Watercourse) at the two places where it crosses public
>> roads.  GNB uses this name for another branch of the river nearer to Moree
>> but locals, including the local council, seem to have a different view.
>>
>> When visiting the area, I found water to be difficult to discuss with
>> locals as there are some strong points of view. Maintaining a river on the
>> map may be a political imperative for government but is not consistent with
>> OSM's philosophy of mapping what is actually on the ground at particular
>> locations.
>>
>> After reflection, I think the Gwydir River does not really exist west of
>> the wetlands and I think it should be deleted from OSM, even though it is
>> shown on the LPI Base Map. I propose to delete this section of the river
>> and follow the local council signposted name for the more westerly waterway
>> that does actually exist at Morialta and Watercourse Roads.
>>
>> I would appreciate any views on this issue.
>>
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Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[cleary]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback and suggesstions.  I will try to 
incorporate some of the  suggestions in changes I make.





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Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[Mateusz Konieczny]

24 Jun 2019, 17:41 by matkoni...@tutanota.com:

>
> 24 Jun 2019, 10:19 by o...@97k.com:
>
>> After reflection, I think the Gwydir River does not really exist west of the 
>> wetlands and I think it should be deleted from OSM, even though it is shown 
>> on the LPI Base Map. I propose to delete this section of the river and 
>> follow the local council signposted name for the more westerly waterway that 
>> does actually exist at Morialta and Watercourse Roads.
>>
>> I would appreciate any views on this issue.
>>
> Given that other may be confused in exactly the same way and thing that look 
> like a river is visible on 
> aerial image I would consider keeping line with not explaining situation (and 
> maybe link
> to this mailing list thread - > 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-June/012740.html 
> >  )
>

ops. "with not explaining" -> "with note tag explaining"

So for example I would change

"waterway=river" to "source:note=survey note="the river is not existing, see 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-June/012740.html 
 for 
more detail"

---

Though, there are some places where water flows only some times during the year 
and object 
is considered to be intermittent stream/river.

How often water flows there? Is riverbed treated as riverbed (no constructions, 
fords/bridges) etc?
Are locals referring to it as river/former river/not aware that it was a river?

Is "Gwydir River" still used as location recognizable by people?

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Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[Mateusz Konieczny]

24 Jun 2019, 10:19 by o...@97k.com:

> After reflection, I think the Gwydir River does not really exist west of the 
> wetlands and I think it should be deleted from OSM, even though it is shown 
> on the LPI Base Map. I propose to delete this section of the river and follow 
> the local council signposted name for the more westerly waterway that does 
> actually exist at Morialta and Watercourse Roads.
>
> I would appreciate any views on this issue.
>
Given that other may be confused in exactly the same way and thing that look 
like a river is visible on 
aerial image I would consider keeping line with not explaining situation (and 
maybe link
to this mailing list thread - 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2019-June/012740.html 
 )

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Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[Andrew Harvey]

I think you've done a top job detailing the situation, so I'd go with your
findings from on the ground.

We're not here to simply mirror the NSW LPI Base Map, so I wouldn't worry
too much about what it says.

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 18:25, cleary  wrote:

> In the past, I added some parts of the Gwydir River to the map using the
> NSW LPI Base Map because I could not see a clear waterway on satellite
> imagery. Since then, I have visited the area twice and cannot actually find
> a river where it is shown on the map. Much of the "river" is in private
> property but public roads cross waterways at various locations.
>
> The western end of the Gwydir River seems not to exist except on the NSW
> LPI Base Map and maps which have used it as a source (including OSM).
>
> As far as I can ascertain, the river used to dissipate into wetlands and,
> if there was enough water, the seepage from the wetlands re-formed into
> waterways. However intensive irrigation has resulted in such low water flow
> that the wetlands are largely dust and water seems never to flow beyond
> them (except perhaps in major flood events which are relatively rare).
> Water from the eastern Gwydir may flow west to the Barwon River via Carole
> Creek into Gil Gil Creek, via the Gingham Watercourse and via the Mehi
> River.  But the so-called Gwydir River, west of the wetlands, does not
> appear to exist except on the LPI Map. And part that of the waterway that
> does exist is signposted by the Moree Plains Shire Council with a different
> name (Big Leather Watercourse) at the two places where it crosses public
> roads.  GNB uses this name for another branch of the river nearer to Moree
> but locals, including the local council, seem to have a different view.
>
> When visiting the area, I found water to be difficult to discuss with
> locals as there are some strong points of view. Maintaining a river on the
> map may be a political imperative for government but is not consistent with
> OSM's philosophy of mapping what is actually on the ground at particular
> locations.
>
> After reflection, I think the Gwydir River does not really exist west of
> the wetlands and I think it should be deleted from OSM, even though it is
> shown on the LPI Base Map. I propose to delete this section of the river
> and follow the local council signposted name for the more westerly waterway
> that does actually exist at Morialta and Watercourse Roads.
>
> I would appreciate any views on this issue.
>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[Sebastian S.]

I have heard of rivers that are mostly underground during certain times. I'm 
not sure if this would apply here but it might be worthwhile asking.
-- 
Regards, Sebastian

On 24 June 2019 9:34:30 pm AEST, Michael James  wrote:
>There are lots of rivers in Australia that do not always have water in
>them
>
>The correct tag is intermittent=yes
>
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:intermittent
>
>Thanks Michael
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, 24 June 2019 8:58 PM
>> To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River
>> 
>> On 24/06/19 18:19, cleary wrote:
>> > In the past, I added some parts of the Gwydir River to the map
>using the NSW
>> LPI Base Map because I could not see a clear waterway on satellite
>imagery.
>> Since then, I have visited the area twice and cannot actually find a
>river where it
>> is shown on the map. Much of the "river" is in private property but
>public roads
>> cross waterways at various locations.
>> >
>> > The western end of the Gwydir River seems not to exist except on
>the NSW LPI
>> Base Map and maps which have used it as a source (including OSM).
>> >
>> > As far as I can ascertain, the river used to dissipate into
>wetlands and, if there
>> was enough water, the seepage from the wetlands re-formed into
>waterways.
>> However intensive irrigation has resulted in such low water flow that
>the
>> wetlands are largely dust and water seems never to flow beyond them
>(except
>> perhaps in major flood events which are relatively rare).  Water from
>the eastern
>> Gwydir may flow west to the Barwon River via Carole Creek into Gil
>Gil Creek,
>> via the Gingham Watercourse and via the Mehi River.  But the
>so-called Gwydir
>> River, west of the wetlands, does not appear to exist except on the
>LPI Map.
>> And part that of the waterway that does exist is signposted by the
>Moree Plains
>> Shire Council with a different name (Big Leather Watercourse) at the
>two places
>> where it crosses public roads.  GNB uses this name for another branch
>of the
>> river nearer to Moree but locals, including the local council, seem
>to have a
>> different view.
>> >
>> > When visiting the area, I found water to be difficult to discuss
>with locals as
>> there are some strong points of view. Maintaining a river on the map
>may be a
>> political imperative for government but is not consistent with OSM's
>philosophy
>> of mapping what is actually on the ground at particular locations.
>> >
>> > After reflection, I think the Gwydir River does not really exist
>west of the
>> wetlands and I think it should be deleted from OSM, even though it is
>shown on
>> the LPI Base Map. I propose to delete this section of the river and
>follow the
>> local council signposted name for the more westerly waterway that
>does
>> actually exist at Morialta and Watercourse Roads.
>> >
>> > I would appreciate any views on this issue.
>> 
>> If deleted someone will put it back.
>> 
>> How about using the 'life cycle' tags?
>> 
>> disused? abandoned? raised? Disused might be a good fit.. thought
>with climate
>> change? abandoned:waterway=river??
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[Michael James]

There are lots of rivers in Australia that do not always have water in them

The correct tag is intermittent=yes

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:intermittent

Thanks Michael


> -Original Message-
> From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, 24 June 2019 8:58 PM
> To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River
> 
> On 24/06/19 18:19, cleary wrote:
> > In the past, I added some parts of the Gwydir River to the map using the NSW
> LPI Base Map because I could not see a clear waterway on satellite imagery.
> Since then, I have visited the area twice and cannot actually find a river 
> where it
> is shown on the map. Much of the "river" is in private property but public 
> roads
> cross waterways at various locations.
> >
> > The western end of the Gwydir River seems not to exist except on the NSW LPI
> Base Map and maps which have used it as a source (including OSM).
> >
> > As far as I can ascertain, the river used to dissipate into wetlands and, 
> > if there
> was enough water, the seepage from the wetlands re-formed into waterways.
> However intensive irrigation has resulted in such low water flow that the
> wetlands are largely dust and water seems never to flow beyond them (except
> perhaps in major flood events which are relatively rare).  Water from the 
> eastern
> Gwydir may flow west to the Barwon River via Carole Creek into Gil Gil Creek,
> via the Gingham Watercourse and via the Mehi River.  But the so-called Gwydir
> River, west of the wetlands, does not appear to exist except on the LPI Map.
> And part that of the waterway that does exist is signposted by the Moree 
> Plains
> Shire Council with a different name (Big Leather Watercourse) at the two 
> places
> where it crosses public roads.  GNB uses this name for another branch of the
> river nearer to Moree but locals, including the local council, seem to have a
> different view.
> >
> > When visiting the area, I found water to be difficult to discuss with 
> > locals as
> there are some strong points of view. Maintaining a river on the map may be a
> political imperative for government but is not consistent with OSM's 
> philosophy
> of mapping what is actually on the ground at particular locations.
> >
> > After reflection, I think the Gwydir River does not really exist west of the
> wetlands and I think it should be deleted from OSM, even though it is shown on
> the LPI Base Map. I propose to delete this section of the river and follow the
> local council signposted name for the more westerly waterway that does
> actually exist at Morialta and Watercourse Roads.
> >
> > I would appreciate any views on this issue.
> 
> If deleted someone will put it back.
> 
> How about using the 'life cycle' tags?
> 
> disused? abandoned? raised? Disused might be a good fit.. thought with climate
> change? abandoned:waterway=river??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[Warin]

On 24/06/19 18:19, cleary wrote:

In the past, I added some parts of the Gwydir River to the map using the NSW LPI Base Map 
because I could not see a clear waterway on satellite imagery. Since then, I have visited 
the area twice and cannot actually find a river where it is shown on the map. Much of the 
"river" is in private property but public roads cross waterways at various 
locations.

The western end of the Gwydir River seems not to exist except on the NSW LPI 
Base Map and maps which have used it as a source (including OSM).

As far as I can ascertain, the river used to dissipate into wetlands and, if 
there was enough water, the seepage from the wetlands re-formed into waterways. 
However intensive irrigation has resulted in such low water flow that the 
wetlands are largely dust and water seems never to flow beyond them (except 
perhaps in major flood events which are relatively rare).  Water from the 
eastern Gwydir may flow west to the Barwon River via Carole Creek into Gil Gil 
Creek, via the Gingham Watercourse and via the Mehi River.  But the so-called 
Gwydir River, west of the wetlands, does not appear to exist except on the LPI 
Map. And part that of the waterway that does exist is signposted by the Moree 
Plains Shire Council with a different name (Big Leather Watercourse) at the two 
places where it crosses public roads.  GNB uses this name for another branch of 
the river nearer to Moree but locals, including the local council, seem to have 
a different view.

When visiting the area, I found water to be difficult to discuss with locals as 
there are some strong points of view. Maintaining a river on the map may be a 
political imperative for government but is not consistent with OSM's philosophy 
of mapping what is actually on the ground at particular locations.

After reflection, I think the Gwydir River does not really exist west of the 
wetlands and I think it should be deleted from OSM, even though it is shown on 
the LPI Base Map. I propose to delete this section of the river and follow the 
local council signposted name for the more westerly waterway that does actually 
exist at Morialta and Watercourse Roads.

I would appreciate any views on this issue.


If deleted someone will put it back.

How about using the 'life cycle' tags?

disused? abandoned? raised? Disused might be a good fit.. thought with climate 
change? abandoned:waterway=river??





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[talk-au] Proposed deletion of part of the Gwydir River

[cleary]

In the past, I added some parts of the Gwydir River to the map using the NSW 
LPI Base Map because I could not see a clear waterway on satellite imagery. 
Since then, I have visited the area twice and cannot actually find a river 
where it is shown on the map. Much of the "river" is in private property but 
public roads cross waterways at various locations.  

The western end of the Gwydir River seems not to exist except on the NSW LPI 
Base Map and maps which have used it as a source (including OSM).

As far as I can ascertain, the river used to dissipate into wetlands and, if 
there was enough water, the seepage from the wetlands re-formed into waterways. 
However intensive irrigation has resulted in such low water flow that the 
wetlands are largely dust and water seems never to flow beyond them (except 
perhaps in major flood events which are relatively rare).  Water from the 
eastern Gwydir may flow west to the Barwon River via Carole Creek into Gil Gil 
Creek, via the Gingham Watercourse and via the Mehi River.  But the so-called 
Gwydir River, west of the wetlands, does not appear to exist except on the LPI 
Map. And part that of the waterway that does exist is signposted by the Moree 
Plains Shire Council with a different name (Big Leather Watercourse) at the two 
places where it crosses public roads.  GNB uses this name for another branch of 
the river nearer to Moree but locals, including the local council, seem to have 
a different view.

When visiting the area, I found water to be difficult to discuss with locals as 
there are some strong points of view. Maintaining a river on the map may be a 
political imperative for government but is not consistent with OSM's philosophy 
of mapping what is actually on the ground at particular locations.

After reflection, I think the Gwydir River does not really exist west of the 
wetlands and I think it should be deleted from OSM, even though it is shown on 
the LPI Base Map. I propose to delete this section of the river and follow the 
local council signposted name for the more westerly waterway that does actually 
exist at Morialta and Watercourse Roads.

I would appreciate any views on this issue.

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