Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones (Or, Living Streets in car parks?)
I agree with Andrew's tagging guidelines update. I was never happy with tagging a way as a "living street" when it was obviously a driveway with a sign slapped onto it to basically say "drivers, please be careful, pedestrians might cross at any spot". On rendered data, it often makes it look like the area is a lot more active travel-friendly and "enjoyable to hang out on" than it actually is on the ground... Cheers On 17/2/22 11:23, Dian Ågesson wrote: Hey Graeme, Spotting your change certainly reminded me of the shared zone signs I’ve been seeing, but not because it is tagged incorrectly. It’s been on my to do list since I nearly got run over eating a Bunnings sausage over Xmas! I think that this is a good example of a true “living street”; it would not have been a service road if not signed as a shared zone, and is intended to be shared space to encourage pedestrian traffic. Similar examples I am familiar with include Fitzroy St, St Kilda at Acland Street; Kananook Creek Boulevard South in Frankston between Playne and Davey; and Hardware Lane, Melbourne, at the Bourke Street Carpark. I have noticed that a lot of “true” living streets in Melbourne are busy roads that have been handed back to pedestrian traffic, or are in new, sterilised (soulless) places like Docklands. Dian On 2022-02-17 10:32, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: This discussion started in response to something that I mapped. I was clearing a note / Inspector issue nearby & wondered why this street appeared differently on the map: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/216566993 Had a look & it was tagged as a service-alley which just didn't seem right, but neither did =residential, so I changed it to =tertiary (=unclassified may have been better?). Question was raised as to whether it should be, so I've now changed it to =living_street pending outcome of these discussions. Here it is FYI: https://goo.gl/maps/g3jpqjDQLgCktmfc7 https://goo.gl/maps/wNQyQo7RZRyg94pg8 So what do we think it should be? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Stéphane Guillou http://stragu.gitlab.io/ You can encrypt our communications by using OpenPGP. My public key 4E211060 is available on the keys.gnupg.net server. Other ways to interact with me are listed on my contact page:http://stragu.gitlab.io/contact/ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones (Or, Living Streets in car parks?)
Hey Graeme, Spotting your change certainly reminded me of the shared zone signs I've been seeing, but not because it is tagged incorrectly. It's been on my to do list since I nearly got run over eating a Bunnings sausage over Xmas! I think that this is a good example of a true "living street"; it would not have been a service road if not signed as a shared zone, and is intended to be shared space to encourage pedestrian traffic. Similar examples I am familiar with include Fitzroy St, St Kilda at Acland Street; Kananook Creek Boulevard South in Frankston between Playne and Davey; and Hardware Lane, Melbourne, at the Bourke Street Carpark. I have noticed that a lot of "true" living streets in Melbourne are busy roads that have been handed back to pedestrian traffic, or are in new, sterilised (soulless) places like Docklands. Dian On 2022-02-17 10:32, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: This discussion started in response to something that I mapped. I was clearing a note / Inspector issue nearby & wondered why this street appeared differently on the map: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/216566993 Had a look & it was tagged as a service-alley which just didn't seem right, but neither did =residential, so I changed it to =tertiary (=unclassified may have been better?). Question was raised as to whether it should be, so I've now changed it to =living_street pending outcome of these discussions. Here it is FYI: https://goo.gl/maps/g3jpqjDQLgCktmfc7 https://goo.gl/maps/wNQyQo7RZRyg94pg8 So what do we think it should be? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones (Or, Living Streets in car parks?)
& after being reminded about it, I should have added my usual disclaimer that the G photos are only for illustration purposes, they were not used in any way for mapping! Thanks Graeme On Thu, 17 Feb 2022 at 09:32, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > This discussion started in response to something that I mapped. > > I was clearing a note / Inspector issue nearby & wondered why this street > appeared differently on the map: > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/216566993 > > Had a look & it was tagged as a service-alley which just didn't seem > right, but neither did =residential, so I changed it to =tertiary > (=unclassified may have been better?). > > Question was raised as to whether it should be, so I've now changed it to > =living_street pending outcome of these discussions. > > Here it is FYI: > > https://goo.gl/maps/g3jpqjDQLgCktmfc7 > > https://goo.gl/maps/wNQyQo7RZRyg94pg8 > > So what do we think it should be? > > Thanks > > Graeme > > > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones (Or, Living Streets in car parks?)
This discussion started in response to something that I mapped. I was clearing a note / Inspector issue nearby & wondered why this street appeared differently on the map: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/216566993 Had a look & it was tagged as a service-alley which just didn't seem right, but neither did =residential, so I changed it to =tertiary (=unclassified may have been better?). Question was raised as to whether it should be, so I've now changed it to =living_street pending outcome of these discussions. Here it is FYI: https://goo.gl/maps/g3jpqjDQLgCktmfc7 https://goo.gl/maps/wNQyQo7RZRyg94pg8 So what do we think it should be? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones (Or, Living Streets in car parks?)
It occurs to me that access is a differentiating feature. "Living streets" seem to be open to the public whereas the parking aisle in front of Bunnings or shared driveway of a block of units would (I think) be access=customers or access=private. I agree with your view. And perhaps applicable access=* tags would also be useful. On Wed, 16 Feb 2022, at 11:41 PM, Dian Ågesson wrote: > Hello, > > I am increasingly encountering shared zone signs in carparks, driveways > and other minor service ways. The tagging guidelines suggest that > shared zones are the equivalent of a highway=living_street, but I’m not > sure that is the case. > > When Shared Zones are applied to shopping strips, residential courts, > etc, the Living Street tag seems appropriate. But, the parking aisle in > front of the Bunnings entrance, or the shared driveway of a block of > three units, doesn’t seem to fit. Even though it is a “shared zone”, it > definitely isn’t a living street like what Wikipedia describes. > > In my opinion, a service street that is a shared zone should not be > tagged as a living street, but should keep its service tag. > (Potentially with a pedestrian_priority=yes or shared_zone=yes tag) > > What does this group think of this? Would a change to the tagging > guidelines be appropriate? > > > > dian > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones (Or, Living Streets in car parks?)
Yeah I tend to agree that sometimes the road is more appropriately tagged based on it's hierarchy (eg. highway=service + service=parking_aisle, highway=service + service=alley, etc) rather than living_street just because it's signed as a shared zone. For shared zone signs you should always add foot=designated + motor_vehicle=designated (possibly bicycle=designated depending on the sign) which reflect the shared and designated access modes. I think the existing designation tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:designation is the most appropriate in this case, so designation=shared_zone. I think there is still a case for some highway=living_streets but agree just because there is the sign doesn't mean it should always be highway=living_street. If there's no disagreement here then we can update the tagging guidelines. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Shared Zones (Or, Living Streets in car parks?)
Hello, I am increasingly encountering shared zone signs in carparks, driveways and other minor service ways. The tagging guidelines suggest that shared zones are the equivalent of a highway=living_street, but I'm not sure that is the case. When Shared Zones are applied to shopping strips, residential courts, etc, the Living Street tag seems appropriate. But, the parking aisle in front of the Bunnings entrance, or the shared driveway of a block of three units, doesn't seem to fit. Even though it is a "shared zone", it definitely isn't a living street like what Wikipedia describes. In my opinion, a service street that is a shared zone should not be tagged as a living street, but should keep its service tag. (Potentially with a pedestrian_priority=yes or shared_zone=yes tag) What does this group think of this? Would a change to the tagging guidelines be appropriate? dian___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones
On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 at 16:13, Andrew Harvey wrote: > Oh I thought the Australian Tagging Guidelines were a document an Australian > could read and learn about all the tags for local features in the local > context and terminology. eg. Here's how to tag a school zone. There has been a fair bit of the document culled where it effectively just restated what is globally the case. I don't think it pays to be too parochial. The tagging discussion you pointed to had no local proponents - that's why I was surprised you wanted to add a special case for Australia based on that discussion alone. The discussion was globally generic - where this exists, do that. Ian. Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones
Okay, I've added it to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dliving_street#National_specialities ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones
On 18/07/18 16:40, Andrew Davidson wrote: On 18/07/18 16:12, Andrew Harvey wrote: Okay so I guess we still need to use some local judgement? I thought we were discussing shared zones here? They are clearly sign posted so I wouldn't have thought that there would be a problem identifying them. I'm happy to have them tagged as living_street(s) as they do have most of the characteristics of European types. The problem is that the mapper sees 'shared street' and does not know how to map that in OSM speak .. that is where the Australian guide lines help to translate OZie into OSM ... or to give hints for international phone numbers to use in OSM .. we don't get much practice at that unlike the Europeans. For detailing what a 'shared street' is for OSM then the living street page has a table where the Australian peculiarities can be stated. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dliving_street#National_specialities ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones
On 18/07/18 16:12, Andrew Harvey wrote: Okay so I guess we still need to use some local judgement? I thought we were discussing shared zones here? They are clearly sign posted so I wouldn't have thought that there would be a problem identifying them. I'm happy to have them tagged as living_street(s) as they do have most of the characteristics of European types. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones
> I don't see any reason to update the Australian tagging guidelines. There are no Australia specific arguments being made, or even Australian contributors to the discussion (apart from you). > If that's the way that OSM moves, then let the general wiki get updated accordingly. Don't see any need to single out Australia. Oh I thought the Australian Tagging Guidelines were a document an Australian could read and learn about all the tags for local features in the local context and terminology. eg. Here's how to tag a school zone. > Personally, we see shared-zones used in Australia for lots of purposes other than shared spaces. For example, de-facto pedestrian crossings out the front of stations. I think we should leave people surveying to tag them as they see them, and the maxspeed and access tags may sometimes be more appropriate if it's a crossing space. Okay so I guess we still need to use some local judgement? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones
The only shared zones that I can think of off the top of the head (although I know there are more) are out the front of Bunnings & all the internal roads at Griffith Uni, neither of which really strike me as a "living street"? Not too sure what else you'd call them though? > > > > Disagree .. Australian 'shared zone' does not appear on the OSM wiki .. > > there should be some reference to it being a 'living_street' in OSM > terms. > > Perhaps it can go as well on the 'living_street' page as there is > > already a German equivalent statement there. > > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones
Which part do you disagree with? Do you disagree with me that there has been no specific Australian arguments made on the referenced discussion?Because I looked through the thread, and I couldn't see any except for Andrew's post (which didn't support the proposal, btw). Did I miss something? If you disagree with my personal view on shared zones, I'm happy to hear your argument (which you haven't presented). I don't have an immutable view. Ian. On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 17:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Disagree .. Australian 'shared zone' does not appear on the OSM wiki .. > there should be some reference to it being a 'living_street' in OSM terms. > Perhaps it can go as well on the 'living_street' page as there is > already a German equivalent statement there. > > On 17/07/18 17:38, Ian Sergeant wrote: > > I don't see any reason to update the Australian tagging guidelines. > > There are no Australia specific arguments being made, or even > > Australian contributors to the discussion (apart from you). > > > > If that's the way that OSM moves, then let the general wiki get > > updated accordingly. Don't see any need to single out Australia. > > > > Personally, we see shared-zones used in Australia for lots of purposes > > other than shared spaces. For example, de-facto pedestrian crossings > > out the front of stations. I think we should leave people surveying > > to tag them as they see them, and the maxspeed and access tags may > > sometimes be more appropriate if it's a crossing space. > > > > Ian. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 09:29, Andrew Harvey > > wrote: > >> There's a discussion on the tagging list[1] about how to map shared > >> zones[2] in Australia. The consensus is to use highway=living_street[3]. > >> Please voice any comments you have on the tagging discussion, otherwise > >> I'll update the wiki for highway=living_street and the Australian Tagging > >> Guidelines. > >> > >> [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-July/037820.html > >> [2] > >> http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/shared_zone_fact_sheet.pdf > >> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=living_street > >> ___ > >> Talk-au mailing list > >> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > ___ > > Talk-au mailing list > > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones
Disagree .. Australian 'shared zone' does not appear on the OSM wiki .. there should be some reference to it being a 'living_street' in OSM terms. Perhaps it can go as well on the 'living_street' page as there is already a German equivalent statement there. On 17/07/18 17:38, Ian Sergeant wrote: I don't see any reason to update the Australian tagging guidelines. There are no Australia specific arguments being made, or even Australian contributors to the discussion (apart from you). If that's the way that OSM moves, then let the general wiki get updated accordingly. Don't see any need to single out Australia. Personally, we see shared-zones used in Australia for lots of purposes other than shared spaces. For example, de-facto pedestrian crossings out the front of stations. I think we should leave people surveying to tag them as they see them, and the maxspeed and access tags may sometimes be more appropriate if it's a crossing space. Ian. On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 09:29, Andrew Harvey wrote: There's a discussion on the tagging list[1] about how to map shared zones[2] in Australia. The consensus is to use highway=living_street[3]. Please voice any comments you have on the tagging discussion, otherwise I'll update the wiki for highway=living_street and the Australian Tagging Guidelines. [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-July/037820.html [2] http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/shared_zone_fact_sheet.pdf [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=living_street ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Shared Zones
I don't see any reason to update the Australian tagging guidelines. There are no Australia specific arguments being made, or even Australian contributors to the discussion (apart from you). If that's the way that OSM moves, then let the general wiki get updated accordingly. Don't see any need to single out Australia. Personally, we see shared-zones used in Australia for lots of purposes other than shared spaces. For example, de-facto pedestrian crossings out the front of stations. I think we should leave people surveying to tag them as they see them, and the maxspeed and access tags may sometimes be more appropriate if it's a crossing space. Ian. On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 09:29, Andrew Harvey wrote: > > There's a discussion on the tagging list[1] about how to map shared zones[2] > in Australia. The consensus is to use highway=living_street[3]. Please voice > any comments you have on the tagging discussion, otherwise I'll update the > wiki for highway=living_street and the Australian Tagging Guidelines. > > [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-July/037820.html > [2] http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/shared_zone_fact_sheet.pdf > [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=living_street > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Shared Zones
There's a discussion on the tagging list[1] about how to map shared zones[2] in Australia. The consensus is to use highway=living_street[3]. Please voice any comments you have on the tagging discussion, otherwise I'll update the wiki for highway=living_street and the Australian Tagging Guidelines. [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-July/037820.html [2] http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/shared_zone_fact_sheet.pdf [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=living_street ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
