Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[forster]

Hi

I am satisfied that it is a cache issue. The ways have not been edited  
for 3  days and bicycle (graphhopper) which was doing the little zig  
zag yesterday is now routing correctly.


I think just wait and let the data catch up.

Tony


Ben, thanks for the suggestions - I'll give them a go.

Ian


The intersection in question is quite new, so I am not surprised that

there are

cache issues as you guys have identified. Each routing engine will ingest

new

OSM data on its own schedule.

One thing that I noticed with the spurious "at the fork, turn right onto

Albany

Hwy" instructions in the original OSMR link
,
is the lack of `_link` roads. I would expect the on- and off-ramps to be

tagged

as `highway=trunk_link`. I suspect the routing engines are expecting the

same,

and therefore seeing the Menang Dr slip road
 as a legitimate fork in
the highway.

The latest incorrect directions with "turn sharp left" are probably the

result of

missing turn restriction relations
. I would expect
some "no_u_turn" restrictions where slip roads join the two-way hwy way.
For example, https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1077469012. Some
routing engines will infer this from the angle of the ways, but not all of

them.


Cheers,
Ben




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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Ian Steer]

Ben, thanks for the suggestions - I'll give them a go.

Ian
> 
> The intersection in question is quite new, so I am not surprised that
there are
> cache issues as you guys have identified. Each routing engine will ingest
new
> OSM data on its own schedule.
> 
> One thing that I noticed with the spurious "at the fork, turn right onto
Albany
> Hwy" instructions in the original OSMR link
>  e=-34.9226%2C117.7915%3B-34.9670%2C117.8239#map=16/-
> 34.9652/117.8223>,
> is the lack of `_link` roads. I would expect the on- and off-ramps to be
tagged
> as `highway=trunk_link`. I suspect the routing engines are expecting the
same,
> and therefore seeing the Menang Dr slip road
>  as a legitimate fork in
> the highway.
> 
> The latest incorrect directions with "turn sharp left" are probably the
result of
> missing turn restriction relations
> . I would expect
> some "no_u_turn" restrictions where slip roads join the two-way hwy way.
> For example, https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1077469012. Some
> routing engines will infer this from the angle of the ways, but not all of
them.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ben
> 


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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Ben Ritter]

The intersection in question is quite new, so I am not surprised that there
are cache issues as you guys have identified. Each routing engine will
ingest new OSM data on its own schedule.

One thing that I noticed with the spurious "at the fork, turn right onto
Albany Hwy" instructions in the original OSMR link
,
is the lack of `_link` roads. I would expect the on- and off-ramps to be
tagged as `highway=trunk_link`. I suspect the routing engines are expecting
the same, and therefore seeing the Menang Dr slip road
 as a legitimate fork in the
highway.

The latest incorrect directions with "turn sharp left" are probably the
result of missing turn restriction relations
. I would expect
some "no_u_turn" restrictions where slip roads join the two-way hwy way.
For example, https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1077469012. Some routing
engines will infer this from the angle of the ways, but not all of them.

Cheers,
Ben

On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 03:39,  wrote:

> Ian
> Looking again at the routing:
>
>  1. Continue onto Menang Drive20m
>  2. Keep right onto Menang Drive130m
>  3. Turn sharp left onto Albany Highway20m
>  4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive160m
>  5. Arrive at destination
>
> Its like its working partially off an old cache:
>
> 2. Keep right onto Menang Drive130m
> It thinks it can get on to Menang Dve, it used to be able, now its
> 130m further east
>
> 4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive160m
> it used to be able, now its 160m of off road driving
>
> The routing engines work off the ways not the tiles don't they? Can
> the router be working off a cached set of ways?
>
> Tony
>
> > Yes Ian
> > I think you are right. It was showing the cached copy even now with the
> > kink. I just refreshed it. The routing is still wrong
> >
> >   1. Continue onto Menang Drive   20m
> >   2. Keep right onto Menang Drive 130m
> >   3. Turn sharp left onto Albany Highway  20m
> >   4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive   160m
> >   5. Arrive at destination
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >> Do you mean where Menang Drv curls around and meets Albany Hwy at a
> >> T-junction?  If so, I took the kink out yesterday (?) - maybe the
> renderer
> >> hasn't caught-up with the change when you looked at it ??
> >>
> >> Ian
> >>
> >>> Hi
> >>> Sorry if this is my misunderstanding but it seems that the same mistake
> >> that is made by the routers is being made by some tile >rendering
> engines
> >> too. The standard tile has a kink at the end of Menang Drive
> (1077469021)
> >> which is not there. The >cycleOSM tile renderer does not do this.
> Likewise
> >> the junction of Menang Drive
> >>> (1077469008) is shifted NW by the Standard tile renderer but not the
> >> CycleOSM tile renderer.
> >>> Tony
> >>
> >>
> >>
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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[forster]

Ian
Looking again at the routing:

1. Continue onto Menang Drive20m
2. Keep right onto Menang Drive130m
3. Turn sharp left onto Albany Highway20m
4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive160m
5. Arrive at destination

Its like its working partially off an old cache:

2. Keep right onto Menang Drive130m
It thinks it can get on to Menang Dve, it used to be able, now its  
130m further east


4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive160m
it used to be able, now its 160m of off road driving

The routing engines work off the ways not the tiles don't they? Can  
the router be working off a cached set of ways?


Tony


Yes Ian
I think you are right. It was showing the cached copy even now with the
kink. I just refreshed it. The routing is still wrong

1. Continue onto Menang Drive   20m
2. Keep right onto Menang Drive 130m
3. Turn sharp left onto Albany Highway  20m
4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive   160m
5. Arrive at destination

Tony


Do you mean where Menang Drv curls around and meets Albany Hwy at a
T-junction?  If so, I took the kink out yesterday (?) - maybe the renderer
hasn't caught-up with the change when you looked at it ??

Ian


Hi
Sorry if this is my misunderstanding but it seems that the same mistake

that is made by the routers is being made by some tile >rendering engines
too. The standard tile has a kink at the end of Menang Drive (1077469021)
which is not there. The >cycleOSM tile renderer does not do this. Likewise
the junction of Menang Drive

(1077469008) is shifted NW by the Standard tile renderer but not the

CycleOSM tile renderer.

Tony




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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[forster]

Yes Ian
I think you are right. It was showing the cached copy even now with  
the kink. I just refreshed it. The routing is still wrong


1. Continue onto Menang Drive   20m
2. Keep right onto Menang Drive 130m
3. Turn sharp left onto Albany Highway  20m
4. Turn sharp right onto Menang Drive   160m
5. Arrive at destination

Tony


Do you mean where Menang Drv curls around and meets Albany Hwy at a
T-junction?  If so, I took the kink out yesterday (?) - maybe the renderer
hasn't caught-up with the change when you looked at it ??

Ian


Hi
Sorry if this is my misunderstanding but it seems that the same mistake

that is made by the routers is being made by some tile >rendering engines
too. The standard tile has a kink at the end of Menang Drive (1077469021)
which is not there. The >cycleOSM tile renderer does not do this. Likewise
the junction of Menang Drive

(1077469008) is shifted NW by the Standard tile renderer but not the

CycleOSM tile renderer.

Tony




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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Ian Steer]

Do you mean where Menang Drv curls around and meets Albany Hwy at a
T-junction?  If so, I took the kink out yesterday (?) - maybe the renderer
hasn't caught-up with the change when you looked at it ??

Ian

>Hi
>Sorry if this is my misunderstanding but it seems that the same mistake
that is made by the routers is being made by some tile >rendering engines
too. The standard tile has a kink at the end of Menang Drive (1077469021)
which is not there. The >cycleOSM tile renderer does not do this. Likewise
the junction of Menang Drive
>(1077469008) is shifted NW by the Standard tile renderer but not the
CycleOSM tile renderer.
>Tony



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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[forster]

Hi
Sorry if this is my misunderstanding but it seems that the same  
mistake that is made by the routers is being made by some tile  
rendering engines too. The standard tile has a kink at the end of  
Menang Drive (1077469021) which is not there. The cycleOSM tile  
renderer does not do this. Likewise the junction of Menang Drive  
(1077469008) is shifted NW by the Standard tile renderer but not the  
CycleOSM tile renderer.

Tony


This end has an issue if you can legally go round the Menang Drive loop

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.9
6706%2C117.81758%3B-34.96606%2C117.82303#map=18/-34.96639/117.82031

-Original Message-
From: Ian Steer 
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 7:44 PM
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

Ah - thanks Ben.  I wasn't aware of that service, I'll give it a try.

Encouraging that it's not just Garmin's GPS algorithm.

It is a mystery what's happening.

Thanks

Ian


Subject: Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I don't know what causes it, but you can see the same problem with OSMR:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.

9226%2C117.7915%3B-34.9670%>2C117.8239#map=17/-34.96524/117.82097







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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Andy Townsend]

On 07/06/2023 03:00, Ian Steer wrote:


My Garmin GPSMAP 66i gives misleading routing instructions at a new 
intersection on Albany Highway near Albany when using OSM data.


One thing that might be useful to know is what was used to create the 
Garmin .img file from the .osm data.  Control over "who or what can go 
where" is almost entirely under the control of the style.  That's an 
entirely different thing to spurious "right on ..." etc. instructions of 
course, but it might still be worth knowing.


Not related to your problem, but I did notice that when I changed cars, 
and went from a Garmin Nuvi using my own OSM-based maps to the car's 
built-in HERE-based satnav maps, it started chirping about "keep left / 
keep right" on main roads with very minor junctions all the time - so 
annoying that I turned the sound right down!


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Ian Steer]

There's some weird s^%t going on that's for sure.  Yes, you can do what your
route intends - I just did it this afternoon.

Ian

-Original Message-
From: Phil Wyatt  
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 5:58 PM
To: 'Ian Steer' ; talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: RE: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

This end has an issue if you can legally go round the Menang Drive loop

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.9
6706%2C117.81758%3B-34.96606%2C117.82303#map=18/-34.96639/117.82031

-Original Message-
From: Ian Steer  
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 7:44 PM
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

Ah - thanks Ben.  I wasn't aware of that service, I'll give it a try.

Encouraging that it's not just Garmin's GPS algorithm.

It is a mystery what's happening.

Thanks

Ian

>Subject: Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA
>Message-ID:
>   
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>I don't know what causes it, but you can see the same problem with OSMR:
>
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.
9226%2C117.7915%3B-34.9670%>2C117.8239#map=17/-34.96524/117.82097
>
>



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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Phil Wyatt]

This end has an issue if you can legally go round the Menang Drive loop

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.9
6706%2C117.81758%3B-34.96606%2C117.82303#map=18/-34.96639/117.82031

-Original Message-
From: Ian Steer  
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 7:44 PM
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

Ah - thanks Ben.  I wasn't aware of that service, I'll give it a try.

Encouraging that it's not just Garmin's GPS algorithm.

It is a mystery what's happening.

Thanks

Ian

>Subject: Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA
>Message-ID:
>   
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>I don't know what causes it, but you can see the same problem with OSMR:
>
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.
9226%2C117.7915%3B-34.9670%>2C117.8239#map=17/-34.96524/117.82097
>
>



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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Warin]

Possibly a router confusion with driving on the left... most drive on 
the incorrect side of the road and get confused when faced with the 
reverse. ??



Only thing I can see other than various offsets is the begining of the 2 
lane section heading north west .. happens a little further along.



But everything in OSM  looks ok for routing...


On 7/6/23 12:46, Josh Marshall wrote:

Hi Ian,

You can copy+paste the URL when you’re looking at the section in 
question on openstreetmap.org .


https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=menang%20drive#map=18/-34.96511/117.82114=D 



I’ve turned the data layer on so you can just click on the nodes and 
ways to see their details, and then you can copy that URL to reference it:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/853070680

So on to the question, I suspect it’s a router issue, but quite 
possibly something to do with Menang Drive having tagging with 
bicycle=yes cycleway:left=yes etc, but the Albany Highway ways not 
having anything of the sort, not even lane quantity.


Probably not relevant, but that greater intersection looks like it’s 
been mapped with a variety of aerial sources but without imagery 
offsets being taken into account. The Maxar layer looks like the most 
recent, and once I aligned that best I could (5.24, -9.89), there are 
still a number of roads that are well off the imagery.


And the little bike diversions for merging across aren’t mapped… but 
good riddance, they’re definitely designed by someone who thinks that 
it’s fine for cyclists on major highways who could be doing 35 km/h to 
slam on the brakes to take a 90º  turn to cross a lane… ugh.



On 7 Jun 2023, at 12:00 pm, Ian Steer  wrote:

My Garmin GPSMAP 66i gives misleading routing instructions at a new 
intersection on Albany Highway near Albany when using OSM data.  I 
have looked at the OSM data through JOSM and it all looks good.  I 
wondered if anyone else can see what might be causing the strange 
routing instructions.

The explanation really needs pictures, so I’ve put them in Dropbox:
Screenshot 1 shows the first OSM way of the section in question 
(highlighted in red) plus some annotations about the points where the 
GPS has instructions for the two misleading manoeuvres:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mk7pmpucvp9y5q6/screenshot%201.jpg?dl=0
Screenshot 2 just shows the other OSM way that covers the section in 
question:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wpfaip74htzbnyw/screenshot%202.JPG?dl=0
Screenshot 3 shows the routing instructions on the GPS:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hy8r91c5syvq4d/screenshot%203.JPG?dl=0
I don’t know how to give OSM way references, but the intersection is 
at S34.9647 and E117.8205 (Menang Drive and Albany Highway)

Has anyone got any clues why the GPS would be doing what it is doing ?
Thanks
Ian
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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Josh Marshall]

Hi Ian,

You can copy+paste the URL when you’re looking at the section in question
on openstreetmap.org.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=menang%20drive#map=18/-34.96511/117.82114=D

I’ve turned the data layer on so you can just click on the nodes and ways
to see their details, and then you can copy that URL to reference it:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/853070680

So on to the question, I suspect it’s a router issue, but quite possibly
something to do with Menang Drive having tagging with bicycle=yes
cycleway:left=yes etc, but the Albany Highway ways not having anything of
the sort, not even lane quantity.

Probably not relevant, but that greater intersection looks like it’s been
mapped with a variety of aerial sources but without imagery offsets being
taken into account. The Maxar layer looks like the most recent, and once I
aligned that best I could (5.24, -9.89), there are still a number of roads
that are well off the imagery.

And the little bike diversions for merging across aren’t mapped… but good
riddance, they’re definitely designed by someone who thinks that it’s fine
for cyclists on major highways who could be doing 35 km/h to slam on the
brakes to take a 90º  turn to cross a lane… ugh.

On 7 Jun 2023, at 12:00 pm, Ian Steer  wrote:

My Garmin GPSMAP 66i gives misleading routing instructions at a new
intersection on Albany Highway near Albany when using OSM data.  I have
looked at the OSM data through JOSM and it all looks good.  I wondered if
anyone else can see what might be causing the strange routing instructions.

The explanation really needs pictures, so I’ve put them in Dropbox:

Screenshot 1 shows the first OSM way of the section in question
(highlighted in red) plus some annotations about the points where the GPS
has instructions for the two misleading manoeuvres:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mk7pmpucvp9y5q6/screenshot%201.jpg?dl=0

Screenshot 2 just shows the other OSM way that covers the section in
question:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wpfaip74htzbnyw/screenshot%202.JPG?dl=0

Screenshot 3 shows the routing instructions on the GPS:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4hy8r91c5syvq4d/screenshot%203.JPG?dl=0

I don’t know how to give OSM way references, but the intersection is at
S34.9647 and E117.8205 (Menang Drive and Albany Highway)

Has anyone got any clues why the GPS would be doing what it is doing ?

Thanks

Ian
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Re: [talk-au] Routing problem near Albany, WA

[Ben Kelley]

I don't know what causes it, but you can see the same problem with OSMR:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_car=-34.9226%2C117.7915%3B-34.9670%2C117.8239#map=17/-34.96524/117.82097

 - Ben.
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