Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Pierre Béland]

Overpass peut être utilisé de deux façons pour analyser l'historique d'OSM1. 
DATE: État de la carte à une date précise : Exemple de James
2. ADIFF: Transactions effectuées entre deux dates. Dans l'exemple ci-dessous, 
j'utilise xml plutot que json comme format d'output. Aussi plutot que out body 
et out skel , j'utilise out meta geom pour plus de détail. Beaucoup d'infos 
disponibles dans le fichier. Par contre, les données ne sont pas affichées sur 
la carte.
Voir http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/sq6
 
Pierre 
 

Le mercredi 18 octobre 2017 06:47:20 HAE, James  a 
écrit :  
 
 I've gave an example to your students to find old nodes(thanks andy for 
synthax I forgot how to query in 
past)https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A/issues/43


On Oct 18, 2017 6:07 AM, "Andy Townsend"  wrote:

For info, there's a bunch of stuff that you can do with Overpass to see the 
state of an object on a certain date, for example:

[date:"2017-08-25T00:17:06Z"];
way(300069227);
out geom;

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/spV

Also it might be worth considering using the dev site 
https://master.apis.dev.openst reetmap.org/ (or even your own hosted OSM API) 
if you want to try an extensive test of "see what this looks like".  As James 
has already said, the main OSM site is constantly subject to fixes and 
corrections by everyone - that's kind of the point :)

For example, I used the dev API here to experiment with the mapping of drop 
kerbs etc.:

https://master.apis.dev.openst reetmap.org/#map=18/54.01973/- 1.04546=D

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[James]

I've gave an example to your students to find old nodes(thanks andy for
synthax I forgot how to query in past)
https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A/issues/43


On Oct 18, 2017 6:07 AM, "Andy Townsend"  wrote:

> For info, there's a bunch of stuff that you can do with Overpass to see
> the state of an object on a certain date, for example:
>
> [date:"2017-08-25T00:17:06Z"];
> way(300069227);
> out geom;
>
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/spV
>
> Also it might be worth considering using the dev site
> https://master.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/ (or even your own hosted OSM
> API) if you want to try an extensive test of "see what this looks like".
> As James has already said, the main OSM site is constantly subject to fixes
> and corrections by everyone - that's kind of the point :)
>
> For example, I used the dev API here to experiment with the mapping of
> drop kerbs etc.:
>
> https://master.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/54.01973/-
> 1.04546=D
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Andy Townsend]

For info, there's a bunch of stuff that you can do with Overpass to see 
the state of an object on a certain date, for example:


[date:"2017-08-25T00:17:06Z"];
way(300069227);
out geom;

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/spV

Also it might be worth considering using the dev site 
https://master.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/ (or even your own hosted OSM 
API) if you want to try an extensive test of "see what this looks 
like".  As James has already said, the main OSM site is constantly 
subject to fixes and corrections by everyone - that's kind of the point :)


For example, I used the dev API here to experiment with the mapping of 
drop kerbs etc.:


https://master.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/54.01973/-1.04546=D

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Tracey P. Lauriault]

Greetings OSM Ottawa and Data Working Group;

It looks like all of the COMS2200A photos have been deleted from OSM
Ottawa.  Is that true? When I look at the map, it does look rather
unpopulated with photos.
Can you please confirm?

Sincerely
Tracey


On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 12:46 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault 
wrote:

> Greetings OSM folks;
>
> I wonder if you could assist.
>
> Students are still getting locked out and are unable to complete their
> assignment. Also, the message they are receiving see below states that you
> were unable to locate me, which we know is not the case.
>
> It would be really great if we let the students finish their assignment
> and that we discuss what to do with the messy data as discussed in earlier
> parts of this stream.
>
> Any assistance would be most appreciated.
> Sincerely
> Tracey
>
> "Dear COMS2200A students,
>
> welcome to OSM and we're happy to see you engaging with our shared
> database.
>
> A few of our community members have taken exception to some of the things
> that you mapped and how you mapped them; many of your edits are not exactly
> following the quality standards we have set for us in OSM which leads us to
> believe that you may not have received the requisite training, especially
> where you've made edits outside of the university district.
>
> Sadly we couldn't find out who the person responsible for this
> class/course/ activity is. A few mappers have commented on edits that you
> made, and pointed out errors or problems; this should have triggered
> e-mails to the address used when registering but the messages seem to have
> been ignored.
>
> Could you please inform your teacher/course leader to get in touch with
> the Canadian community on the talk-ca mailing list (
> lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca) so that we can discuss how to
> continue this exercise without degrading OSM's data quality?
>
> Please pause your editing activity until the matter is cleared up.
> Thank you Frederik Ramm OSMF Data Working Group
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 9:11 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault 
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you.
>> Lets finish this assignment and then regroup to discuss whether or not
>> this should be done again next year, and if so the best way to do it.
>>
>> The students will need to put together a small reflection piece on the
>> process, that should help.  We will have identified numerous issues and
>> error types, and we will have learned something about students and the OSM
>> community.
>>
>> I am travelling quite a bit this month, if I am here I will attend the
>> next local.  Please let me know when and where they are.
>>
>> Cheerio
>> Tracey
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:30 AM, James  wrote:
>>
>>> I think some people are missing the point of the class by saying: Go map
>>> an african village.
>>>
>>> The point was to have students go outside and take photos of real world
>>> items(surveying) and upload them to mapillary
>>> Then the students take the mapillary photo key and add it to the item in
>>> OSM
>>> They are supposed to learn about deriving information from
>>> something(photo, text,etc)
>>>
>>> As I've said to Tracey, I welcome the project, maybe we will get some
>>> new mappers out of it, but they are new mappers(we all started out new at
>>> one point and we've made errors in the past) and if they can learn from the
>>> feedback; all the better.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:22 AM, john whelan 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 This is primarily to Tracey ca-talk has been cced.

 There are a number of issues here.

 First OSM is growing up.  No longer is it a bunch of mappers who use
 the edit tools or web page to view the map.  The data is live and snapshots
 are taken by various players including OSMAND at points in time.  This can
 be once a month so if there are a small number of mistakes not a big deal.
 If there are a large number in the snapshot then OSMAND users are stuck
 with them until the next off line map is made available.  Because of
 bandwidth costs both to the end user and to OSMAND it can be two or three
 months before the errors are cleared.

 Second the email over Frederick's signature is extremely polite for
 Frederick.  He wrote the book on OSM and is part of the group currently
 looking at whether we need a formal policy for handling edits by groups of
 organised mappers.  The DWG working group is the highest central authority
 within OSM and is concerned with data quality or vandalism.  I think the
 Carlton students edits show there is a very definite need.  A number of
 mappers including myself were hoping there wouldn't be a need for something
 quite so formal.  Note to Frederick if you read this change my response to
 the survey.

 Third OpenStreetMap is very rich in what can be mapped.  In an urban
 area it can be very complex to map.  For 

Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Tracey P. Lauriault]

Many students have said that their OSM points were deleted. Is there a way
to hold off until this assignment is over? As noted in previous emails, I
was hoping we could keep these entries until the end of the assignment so
that we may assess them.

This is the final week, we were to assess their contribution.

Sincerely
Tracey

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:54 PM, James  wrote:

> no photos have been deleted as OSM doesnt support photos, only XML.
>
> There has been deduplication happening as people were adding 10+ of the
> same bench/statue etc. So duplicate items might have been deleted, but
> mapillary tag was transferred over.
>
> On Oct 17, 2017 8:51 PM, "Tracey P. Lauriault"  wrote:
>
> Greetings OSM Ottawa and Data Working Group;
>
> It looks like all of the COMS2200A photos have been deleted from OSM
> Ottawa.  Is that true? When I look at the map, it does look rather
> unpopulated with photos.
> Can you please confirm?
>
> Sincerely
> Tracey
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 12:46 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault 
> wrote:
>
>> Greetings OSM folks;
>>
>> I wonder if you could assist.
>>
>> Students are still getting locked out and are unable to complete their
>> assignment. Also, the message they are receiving see below states that you
>> were unable to locate me, which we know is not the case.
>>
>> It would be really great if we let the students finish their assignment
>> and that we discuss what to do with the messy data as discussed in earlier
>> parts of this stream.
>>
>> Any assistance would be most appreciated.
>> Sincerely
>> Tracey
>>
>> "Dear COMS2200A students,
>>
>> welcome to OSM and we're happy to see you engaging with our shared
>> database.
>>
>> A few of our community members have taken exception to some of the things
>> that you mapped and how you mapped them; many of your edits are not exactly
>> following the quality standards we have set for us in OSM which leads us to
>> believe that you may not have received the requisite training, especially
>> where you've made edits outside of the university district.
>>
>> Sadly we couldn't find out who the person responsible for this
>> class/course/ activity is. A few mappers have commented on edits that you
>> made, and pointed out errors or problems; this should have triggered
>> e-mails to the address used when registering but the messages seem to have
>> been ignored.
>>
>> Could you please inform your teacher/course leader to get in touch with
>> the Canadian community on the talk-ca mailing list (
>> lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca) so that we can discuss how to
>> continue this exercise without degrading OSM's data quality?
>>
>> Please pause your editing activity until the matter is cleared up.
>> Thank you Frederik Ramm OSMF Data Working Group
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 9:11 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you.
>>> Lets finish this assignment and then regroup to discuss whether or not
>>> this should be done again next year, and if so the best way to do it.
>>>
>>> The students will need to put together a small reflection piece on the
>>> process, that should help.  We will have identified numerous issues and
>>> error types, and we will have learned something about students and the OSM
>>> community.
>>>
>>> I am travelling quite a bit this month, if I am here I will attend the
>>> next local.  Please let me know when and where they are.
>>>
>>> Cheerio
>>> Tracey
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:30 AM, James  wrote:
>>>
 I think some people are missing the point of the class by saying: Go
 map an african village.

 The point was to have students go outside and take photos of real world
 items(surveying) and upload them to mapillary
 Then the students take the mapillary photo key and add it to the item
 in OSM
 They are supposed to learn about deriving information from
 something(photo, text,etc)

 As I've said to Tracey, I welcome the project, maybe we will get some
 new mappers out of it, but they are new mappers(we all started out new at
 one point and we've made errors in the past) and if they can learn from the
 feedback; all the better.

 On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:22 AM, john whelan 
 wrote:

> This is primarily to Tracey ca-talk has been cced.
>
> There are a number of issues here.
>
> First OSM is growing up.  No longer is it a bunch of mappers who use
> the edit tools or web page to view the map.  The data is live and 
> snapshots
> are taken by various players including OSMAND at points in time.  This can
> be once a month so if there are a small number of mistakes not a big deal.
> If there are a large number in the snapshot then OSMAND users are stuck
> with them until the next off line map is made available.  Because of
> bandwidth costs both to the end user 

Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Tracey P. Lauriault]

Greetings OSM folks;

I wonder if you could assist.

Students are still getting locked out and are unable to complete their
assignment. Also, the message they are receiving see below states that you
were unable to locate me, which we know is not the case.

It would be really great if we let the students finish their assignment and
that we discuss what to do with the messy data as discussed in earlier
parts of this stream.

Any assistance would be most appreciated.
Sincerely
Tracey

"Dear COMS2200A students,

welcome to OSM and we're happy to see you engaging with our shared database.

A few of our community members have taken exception to some of the things
that you mapped and how you mapped them; many of your edits are not exactly
following the quality standards we have set for us in OSM which leads us to
believe that you may not have received the requisite training, especially
where you've made edits outside of the university district.

Sadly we couldn't find out who the person responsible for this
class/course/ activity is. A few mappers have commented on edits that you
made, and pointed out errors or problems; this should have triggered
e-mails to the address used when registering but the messages seem to have
been ignored.

Could you please inform your teacher/course leader to get in touch with the
Canadian community on the talk-ca mailing list (
lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca) so that we can discuss how to
continue this exercise without degrading OSM's data quality?

Please pause your editing activity until the matter is cleared up.
Thank you Frederik Ramm OSMF Data Working Group

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 9:11 AM, Tracey P. Lauriault 
wrote:

> Thank you.
> Lets finish this assignment and then regroup to discuss whether or not
> this should be done again next year, and if so the best way to do it.
>
> The students will need to put together a small reflection piece on the
> process, that should help.  We will have identified numerous issues and
> error types, and we will have learned something about students and the OSM
> community.
>
> I am travelling quite a bit this month, if I am here I will attend the
> next local.  Please let me know when and where they are.
>
> Cheerio
> Tracey
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:30 AM, James  wrote:
>
>> I think some people are missing the point of the class by saying: Go map
>> an african village.
>>
>> The point was to have students go outside and take photos of real world
>> items(surveying) and upload them to mapillary
>> Then the students take the mapillary photo key and add it to the item in
>> OSM
>> They are supposed to learn about deriving information from
>> something(photo, text,etc)
>>
>> As I've said to Tracey, I welcome the project, maybe we will get some new
>> mappers out of it, but they are new mappers(we all started out new at one
>> point and we've made errors in the past) and if they can learn from the
>> feedback; all the better.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:22 AM, john whelan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is primarily to Tracey ca-talk has been cced.
>>>
>>> There are a number of issues here.
>>>
>>> First OSM is growing up.  No longer is it a bunch of mappers who use the
>>> edit tools or web page to view the map.  The data is live and snapshots are
>>> taken by various players including OSMAND at points in time.  This can be
>>> once a month so if there are a small number of mistakes not a big deal.  If
>>> there are a large number in the snapshot then OSMAND users are stuck with
>>> them until the next off line map is made available.  Because of bandwidth
>>> costs both to the end user and to OSMAND it can be two or three months
>>> before the errors are cleared.
>>>
>>> Second the email over Frederick's signature is extremely polite for
>>> Frederick.  He wrote the book on OSM and is part of the group currently
>>> looking at whether we need a formal policy for handling edits by groups of
>>> organised mappers.  The DWG working group is the highest central authority
>>> within OSM and is concerned with data quality or vandalism.  I think the
>>> Carlton students edits show there is a very definite need.  A number of
>>> mappers including myself were hoping there wouldn't be a need for something
>>> quite so formal.  Note to Frederick if you read this change my response to
>>> the survey.
>>>
>>> Third OpenStreetMap is very rich in what can be mapped.  In an urban
>>> area it can be very complex to map.  For example currently there is a push
>>> within OpenStreetMap to add more information for the disabled.
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disabilities but exactly how one adds
>>> tactile_paving = yes correctly is something I still have to work out.  The
>>> City of Ottawa is currently adding  tactile_paving at many road
>>> junctions and for blind people it is very useful as many junctions now have
>>> slopes rather than curb stones which makes it difficult to know 

Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Tracey P. Lauriault]

Thank you.
Lets finish this assignment and then regroup to discuss whether or not this
should be done again next year, and if so the best way to do it.

The students will need to put together a small reflection piece on the
process, that should help.  We will have identified numerous issues and
error types, and we will have learned something about students and the OSM
community.

I am travelling quite a bit this month, if I am here I will attend the next
local.  Please let me know when and where they are.

Cheerio
Tracey

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:30 AM, James  wrote:

> I think some people are missing the point of the class by saying: Go map
> an african village.
>
> The point was to have students go outside and take photos of real world
> items(surveying) and upload them to mapillary
> Then the students take the mapillary photo key and add it to the item in
> OSM
> They are supposed to learn about deriving information from
> something(photo, text,etc)
>
> As I've said to Tracey, I welcome the project, maybe we will get some new
> mappers out of it, but they are new mappers(we all started out new at one
> point and we've made errors in the past) and if they can learn from the
> feedback; all the better.
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:22 AM, john whelan 
> wrote:
>
>> This is primarily to Tracey ca-talk has been cced.
>>
>> There are a number of issues here.
>>
>> First OSM is growing up.  No longer is it a bunch of mappers who use the
>> edit tools or web page to view the map.  The data is live and snapshots are
>> taken by various players including OSMAND at points in time.  This can be
>> once a month so if there are a small number of mistakes not a big deal.  If
>> there are a large number in the snapshot then OSMAND users are stuck with
>> them until the next off line map is made available.  Because of bandwidth
>> costs both to the end user and to OSMAND it can be two or three months
>> before the errors are cleared.
>>
>> Second the email over Frederick's signature is extremely polite for
>> Frederick.  He wrote the book on OSM and is part of the group currently
>> looking at whether we need a formal policy for handling edits by groups of
>> organised mappers.  The DWG working group is the highest central authority
>> within OSM and is concerned with data quality or vandalism.  I think the
>> Carlton students edits show there is a very definite need.  A number of
>> mappers including myself were hoping there wouldn't be a need for something
>> quite so formal.  Note to Frederick if you read this change my response to
>> the survey.
>>
>> Third OpenStreetMap is very rich in what can be mapped.  In an urban area
>> it can be very complex to map.  For example currently there is a push
>> within OpenStreetMap to add more information for the disabled.
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disabilities but exactly how one adds
>> tactile_paving = yes correctly is something I still have to work out.  The
>> City of Ottawa is currently adding  tactile_paving at many road
>> junctions and for blind people it is very useful as many junctions now have
>> slopes rather than curb stones which makes it difficult to know where the
>> edge of the sidewalk is for a blind person.
>>
>> In general I'd start students mapping either on a test server or on a HOT
>> project but it would need thinking about which one to map.  Adding
>> information for the disabled would also work in that it adds value and is a
>> small subset of mapping.  The HOT projects have a validation process so the
>> mapping can be verified and is used to large numbers of students mapping in
>> a small area.  Typically they restrict what is requested to be mapped.
>> http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2657 is an example but it would not be
>> ideal for 150 mappers at once.  I'd need to discuss with someone such as
>> Pete Masters what would be ideal.  It's armchair mapping but that reduces
>> the number of variables.  OSM can be edited in many ways.  Unfortunately
>> some which use smartphones and GPS are not especially accurate and near
>> tall buildings they can be a hundred meters out. I assume
>> http://learnosm.org/ was brought to the attention of the students?
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features and taginfo.
>>
>> It's also interesting in the context of the Statistics Canada building
>> project, data quality is important to Stats Canada and one reason I felt
>> the original project was at risk of not being a success was the possibility
>> that a large number of new mappers would be difficult to train.  Just
>> adding tags onto imported buildings was much simpler and much less error
>> prone.
>>
>> I can probably make myself available to brief the students about
>> OpenStreetMap unfortunately I have some domestic issues at the moment which
>> rules out the next couple of days.  Bug me if this would be of use.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 October 2017 at 23:08, Steve Singer 

Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[James]

I think some people are missing the point of the class by saying: Go map an
african village.

The point was to have students go outside and take photos of real world
items(surveying) and upload them to mapillary
Then the students take the mapillary photo key and add it to the item in OSM
They are supposed to learn about deriving information from something(photo,
text,etc)

As I've said to Tracey, I welcome the project, maybe we will get some new
mappers out of it, but they are new mappers(we all started out new at one
point and we've made errors in the past) and if they can learn from the
feedback; all the better.

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:22 AM, john whelan  wrote:

> This is primarily to Tracey ca-talk has been cced.
>
> There are a number of issues here.
>
> First OSM is growing up.  No longer is it a bunch of mappers who use the
> edit tools or web page to view the map.  The data is live and snapshots are
> taken by various players including OSMAND at points in time.  This can be
> once a month so if there are a small number of mistakes not a big deal.  If
> there are a large number in the snapshot then OSMAND users are stuck with
> them until the next off line map is made available.  Because of bandwidth
> costs both to the end user and to OSMAND it can be two or three months
> before the errors are cleared.
>
> Second the email over Frederick's signature is extremely polite for
> Frederick.  He wrote the book on OSM and is part of the group currently
> looking at whether we need a formal policy for handling edits by groups of
> organised mappers.  The DWG working group is the highest central authority
> within OSM and is concerned with data quality or vandalism.  I think the
> Carlton students edits show there is a very definite need.  A number of
> mappers including myself were hoping there wouldn't be a need for something
> quite so formal.  Note to Frederick if you read this change my response to
> the survey.
>
> Third OpenStreetMap is very rich in what can be mapped.  In an urban area
> it can be very complex to map.  For example currently there is a push
> within OpenStreetMap to add more information for the disabled.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disabilities but exactly how one adds
> tactile_paving = yes correctly is something I still have to work out.  The
> City of Ottawa is currently adding  tactile_paving at many road junctions
> and for blind people it is very useful as many junctions now have slopes
> rather than curb stones which makes it difficult to know where the edge of
> the sidewalk is for a blind person.
>
> In general I'd start students mapping either on a test server or on a HOT
> project but it would need thinking about which one to map.  Adding
> information for the disabled would also work in that it adds value and is a
> small subset of mapping.  The HOT projects have a validation process so the
> mapping can be verified and is used to large numbers of students mapping in
> a small area.  Typically they restrict what is requested to be mapped.
> http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2657 is an example but it would not be
> ideal for 150 mappers at once.  I'd need to discuss with someone such as
> Pete Masters what would be ideal.  It's armchair mapping but that reduces
> the number of variables.  OSM can be edited in many ways.  Unfortunately
> some which use smartphones and GPS are not especially accurate and near
> tall buildings they can be a hundred meters out. I assume
> http://learnosm.org/ was brought to the attention of the students?
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features and taginfo.
>
> It's also interesting in the context of the Statistics Canada building
> project, data quality is important to Stats Canada and one reason I felt
> the original project was at risk of not being a success was the possibility
> that a large number of new mappers would be difficult to train.  Just
> adding tags onto imported buildings was much simpler and much less error
> prone.
>
> I can probably make myself available to brief the students about
> OpenStreetMap unfortunately I have some domestic issues at the moment which
> rules out the next couple of days.  Bug me if this would be of use.
>
> Cheerio John
>
>
>
>
> On 10 October 2017 at 23:08, Steve Singer  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Greetings OSM mappers;
>>>
>>
>>
>> For the benefit of background to others on the list
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1560
>>
>> Is an example of the block message that was sent to a bunch of users.
>>
>> (I wasn't involved in asking for or implementing the blocks or have
>> anything to do with the assignment).
>>
>> I haven't looked at the edits in any details but I will make a few
>> general comments
>>
>> 1. If one user comes into OSM and makes a few changes with issues because
>> of misunderstandings or inexperience fixing those changes isn't a big deal.
>> Most of the time 

Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[john whelan]

This is primarily to Tracey ca-talk has been cced.

There are a number of issues here.

First OSM is growing up.  No longer is it a bunch of mappers who use the
edit tools or web page to view the map.  The data is live and snapshots are
taken by various players including OSMAND at points in time.  This can be
once a month so if there are a small number of mistakes not a big deal.  If
there are a large number in the snapshot then OSMAND users are stuck with
them until the next off line map is made available.  Because of bandwidth
costs both to the end user and to OSMAND it can be two or three months
before the errors are cleared.

Second the email over Frederick's signature is extremely polite for
Frederick.  He wrote the book on OSM and is part of the group currently
looking at whether we need a formal policy for handling edits by groups of
organised mappers.  The DWG working group is the highest central authority
within OSM and is concerned with data quality or vandalism.  I think the
Carlton students edits show there is a very definite need.  A number of
mappers including myself were hoping there wouldn't be a need for something
quite so formal.  Note to Frederick if you read this change my response to
the survey.

Third OpenStreetMap is very rich in what can be mapped.  In an urban area
it can be very complex to map.  For example currently there is a push
within OpenStreetMap to add more information for the disabled.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disabilities but exactly how one adds
tactile_paving = yes correctly is something I still have to work out.  The
City of Ottawa is currently adding  tactile_paving at many road junctions
and for blind people it is very useful as many junctions now have slopes
rather than curb stones which makes it difficult to know where the edge of
the sidewalk is for a blind person.

In general I'd start students mapping either on a test server or on a HOT
project but it would need thinking about which one to map.  Adding
information for the disabled would also work in that it adds value and is a
small subset of mapping.  The HOT projects have a validation process so the
mapping can be verified and is used to large numbers of students mapping in
a small area.  Typically they restrict what is requested to be mapped.
http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2657 is an example but it would not be
ideal for 150 mappers at once.  I'd need to discuss with someone such as
Pete Masters what would be ideal.  It's armchair mapping but that reduces
the number of variables.  OSM can be edited in many ways.  Unfortunately
some which use smartphones and GPS are not especially accurate and near
tall buildings they can be a hundred meters out. I assume
http://learnosm.org/ was brought to the attention of the students?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features and taginfo.

It's also interesting in the context of the Statistics Canada building
project, data quality is important to Stats Canada and one reason I felt
the original project was at risk of not being a success was the possibility
that a large number of new mappers would be difficult to train.  Just
adding tags onto imported buildings was much simpler and much less error
prone.

I can probably make myself available to brief the students about
OpenStreetMap unfortunately I have some domestic issues at the moment which
rules out the next couple of days.  Bug me if this would be of use.

Cheerio John




On 10 October 2017 at 23:08, Steve Singer  wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>
>
>
> Greetings OSM mappers;
>>
>
>
> For the benefit of background to others on the list
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1560
>
> Is an example of the block message that was sent to a bunch of users.
>
> (I wasn't involved in asking for or implementing the blocks or have
> anything to do with the assignment).
>
> I haven't looked at the edits in any details but I will make a few general
> comments
>
> 1. If one user comes into OSM and makes a few changes with issues because
> of misunderstandings or inexperience fixing those changes isn't a big deal.
> Most of the time someone will just fix them without saying anything.
> However if 30 or 300 users make lots of changes in a short amount of time
> with the same types of errors the volume present challenges.  Large scale
> edits by a bunch who are doing it as part of a course, or who are employed
> by a company to make the changes, or who are doing so as part of a
> coordinated humanitarian effort have the potential to cause problems if
> they aren't coordinated  carefully.
>
>
> 2. A big part of working in any open-source project particularly with OSM
> is that you need to communicate with the other contributors. Communication
> is a two way street, some people are better at it then others and it
> doesn't come naturally to everyone.  I would hope that a course that
> covered the contributing to open source projects (including open data
> 

Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[James]

Hi Tracey, as promised I started some documentation on what errors I'm
seeing quite often. I will be updating it later during my lunch hour with
more examples:
https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A/issues/19

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Steve Singer  wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:
>
>
>
> Greetings OSM mappers;
>>
>
>
> For the benefit of background to others on the list
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1560
>
> Is an example of the block message that was sent to a bunch of users.
>
> (I wasn't involved in asking for or implementing the blocks or have
> anything to do with the assignment).
>
> I haven't looked at the edits in any details but I will make a few general
> comments
>
> 1. If one user comes into OSM and makes a few changes with issues because
> of misunderstandings or inexperience fixing those changes isn't a big deal.
> Most of the time someone will just fix them without saying anything.
> However if 30 or 300 users make lots of changes in a short amount of time
> with the same types of errors the volume present challenges.  Large scale
> edits by a bunch who are doing it as part of a course, or who are employed
> by a company to make the changes, or who are doing so as part of a
> coordinated humanitarian effort have the potential to cause problems if
> they aren't coordinated  carefully.
>
>
> 2. A big part of working in any open-source project particularly with OSM
> is that you need to communicate with the other contributors. Communication
> is a two way street, some people are better at it then others and it
> doesn't come naturally to everyone.  I would hope that a course that
> covered the contributing to open source projects (including open data
> contributions) covered interacting with the community. If the course only
> wanted to give students experience with the tools then editing against a
> test or development instance of OSM would be better.
>
> The advise I would give to people new to the open source communities(and
> at times remind veterans) is believe that most people who are contributing
> are coming from a place of good intentions and to give them the benefit of
> the doubt and try to understand where they are coming from.
>
> When contributing to an open sourced project you need to take
> responsibility (as an individual) for your contributions but that doesn't
> mean they need to be, or will be perfect. No edits are perfect but people
> need to be willing to listen to and learn from feedback from other members
> of the community.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> I understand that students for COMS2200 have been blocked from posting to
>> OSM.
>>
>> There was also an unfortunate email sent to Carleton University by one of
>> your members that is circulating
>> through the administration from (james2...@gmail.com).
>>
>> The data are being contributed as part of an assignment described here -
>> https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A
>>
>> I understand that the students are making some small and some large
>> mistakes that may not meet your OSM
>> data quality standards.  The students are restricted to only be mapping
>> the Carleton University Campus.
>>
>> I wonder if it might be possible to unlock the restriction to let them
>> finish the assignment.  They should
>> be done by next week. There are 150 students.  Once the assignment is
>> complete I would gladly work with you
>> to salvage the data, delete some data, repair some data or wipe all of
>> the data.
>>
>> We apologize for this inconvenience and hope that you can be empathetic
>> and allow for the assignment to be
>> completed so that the students can be assessed.
>>
>> Also, perhaps there are a number of common errors and if you identify
>> them we may be able to fix them.
>>
>> Sincerely
>> Tracey
>>
>> --
>> Tracey P. Lauriault
>>
>> Assistant Professor Critical Media Studies and Big Data
>> Communication Studies
>> School of Journalism and Communication
>> Suite 4110, River Building
>> Carleton University
>> 1125 Colonel By Drive
>> Ottawa (ON) K1S 5B6
>> 1-613-520-2600 x7443
>> tracey.lauria...@carleton.ca
>> @TraceyLauriault
>> Skype: Tracey.P.Lauriault
>> https://carleton.ca/sjc/people-archives/lauriault-tracey/
>>
>>
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>
>


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Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Steve Singer]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2017, Tracey P. Lauriault wrote:




Greetings OSM mappers;



For the benefit of background to others on the list

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1560

Is an example of the block message that was sent to a bunch of users.

(I wasn't involved in asking for or implementing the blocks or have anything 
to do with the assignment).


I haven't looked at the edits in any details but I will make a few general 
comments


1. If one user comes into OSM and makes a few changes with issues 
because of misunderstandings or inexperience fixing those changes isn't a 
big deal. Most of the time someone will just fix them without saying 
anything.  However if 30 or 300 users make lots of changes in a short amount 
of time with the same types of errors the volume present challenges.  Large 
scale edits by a bunch who are doing it as part of a course, or who are 
employed by a company to make the changes, or who are doing so as part of a 
coordinated humanitarian effort have the potential to cause problems if they 
aren't coordinated  carefully.



2. A big part of working in any open-source project particularly with OSM is 
that you need to communicate with the other contributors. Communication is a 
two way street, some people are better at it then others and it doesn't come 
naturally to everyone.  I would hope that a course that covered the 
contributing to open source projects (including open data contributions) 
covered interacting with the community. If the course only wanted to give 
students experience with the tools then editing against a test or 
development instance of OSM would be better.


The advise I would give to people new to the open source communities(and at 
times remind veterans) is believe that most people who are contributing are 
coming from a place of good intentions and to give them the benefit of the 
doubt and try to understand where they are coming from.


When contributing to an open sourced project you need to take responsibility 
(as an individual) for your contributions but that doesn't mean they need to 
be, or will be perfect. No edits are perfect but people need to be willing 
to listen to and learn from feedback from other members of the community.


Steve







I understand that students for COMS2200 have been blocked from posting to OSM.

There was also an unfortunate email sent to Carleton University by one of your 
members that is circulating
through the administration from (james2...@gmail.com).

The data are being contributed as part of an assignment described here -
https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A

I understand that the students are making some small and some large mistakes 
that may not meet your OSM
data quality standards.  The students are restricted to only be mapping the 
Carleton University Campus.

I wonder if it might be possible to unlock the restriction to let them finish 
the assignment.  They should
be done by next week. There are 150 students.  Once the assignment is complete 
I would gladly work with you
to salvage the data, delete some data, repair some data or wipe all of the data.

We apologize for this inconvenience and hope that you can be empathetic and 
allow for the assignment to be
completed so that the students can be assessed.

Also, perhaps there are a number of common errors and if you identify them we 
may be able to fix them.

Sincerely
Tracey

--
Tracey P. Lauriault

Assistant Professor 
Critical Media Studies and Big Data

Communication Studies
School of Journalism and Communication
Suite 4110, River Building
Carleton University
1125 Colonel By Drive
Ottawa (ON) K1S 5B6
1-613-520-2600 x7443
tracey.lauria...@carleton.ca
@TraceyLauriault
Skype: Tracey.P.Lauriault
https://carleton.ca/sjc/people-archives/lauriault-tracey/

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Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Bernie Connors]

Tracey,

  It takes a lot of time and effort to map a university campus completely.  
Especially if you want to use the data for multi-modal routing, e.g., walking 
directions, driving directions, etc.  Small changes can completely destroy a 
carefully constructed network of streets and footpaths.  I can understand the 
local Ottawa mappers being protective of their hard work. To avoid this problem 
in the future here are some suggestions:

1.  Choose a location that is completely unmapped.  There are many locations 
around the world that are unmapped or severely under-mapped.  Novice mapping in 
these areas will not damage hours of work by dedicated OSM volunteers.  But 
care is still necessary even in under-mapped areas. We don't want to export our 
problems to another community. 
2.  Download OSM data for the City of Ottawa and have your students edit 
against a local copy of the database.  I don't know how complex it would be to 
setup editing for a local copy of the OSM data. Perhaps some other mappers can 
provide some input. 
3.  Instead of editing OSM data stick to analysis. Teach students how to 
extract statistics from the OSM database
4.  Provide better training to the students so their edits to the OSM database 
do not cause problems. 
5.  Skip OSM and do some exercises in QGIS or ArcGIS Online. 

Best regards,
Bernie. 
berniejconnors

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 10, 2017, at 11:09 PM, Tracey P. Lauriault  wrote:
> 
> Greetings OSM mappers;
> 
> I understand that students for COMS2200 have been blocked from posting to OSM.
> 
> There was also an unfortunate email sent to Carleton University by one of 
> your members that is circulating through the administration from 
> (james2...@gmail.com).
> 
> The data are being contributed as part of an assignment described here - 
> https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A
> 
> I understand that the students are making some small and some large mistakes 
> that may not meet your OSM data quality standards.  The students are 
> restricted to only be mapping the Carleton University Campus.
> 
> I wonder if it might be possible to unlock the restriction to let them finish 
> the assignment.  They should be done by next week. There are 150 students.  
> Once the assignment is complete I would gladly work with you to salvage the 
> data, delete some data, repair some data or wipe all of the data.
> 
> We apologize for this inconvenience and hope that you can be empathetic and 
> allow for the assignment to be completed so that the students can be assessed.
> 
> Also, perhaps there are a number of common errors and if you identify them we 
> may be able to fix them.
> 
> Sincerely
> Tracey
> 
> -- 
> Tracey P. Lauriault
> Assistant Professor 
> Critical Media Studies and Big Data
> Communication Studies
> School of Journalism and Communication
> Suite 4110, River Building
> Carleton University
> 1125 Colonel By Drive
> Ottawa (ON) K1S 5B6
> 1-613-520-2600 x7443
> tracey.lauria...@carleton.ca
> @TraceyLauriault
> Skype: Tracey.P.Lauriault
> https://carleton.ca/sjc/people-archives/lauriault-tracey/
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Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Matthew Darwin]

Tracey,

I just want to say some of the edits are really destructive: eg entire 
streets are changed/removed (on campus and off campus).  My automated 
error checking script comparing what is in the City of Ottawa street 
list and what is in OSM caught some errors, which I spent time 
fixing.  Adding fire hydrants and trees in the middle of roads, 
tagging a street lamp as an address are other very weird things I 
found.  The students need to pay way more attention to what they are 
doing.


Less volume, more quality please!

On 2017-10-10 10:25 PM, James wrote:
1. the restriction was a login(zero minute) block to grab users 
attention after multiple attempts trying to contact: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/YueYuan/history#map=18/45.35567/-75.75291 
so once they login and view the message they can edit again


2. They have not been editing just around Carleton Campus, there 
have been students editing out on baseline and other areas of Ottawa


3. I've been trying to fix them, but at 1000+ changesets this is 
going to be a monumental task.


I'm not trying to stop your students from contributing, but when 
they simply ignore advice we try to give them to correct said 
actions(kept contributing after multiple changeset comments: they 
get an email per changeset comment) we need a higher power(admins) 
to step in so we can discuss like human beings.



On Oct 10, 2017 10:14 PM, "Tracey P. Lauriault" > wrote:


Greetings OSM mappers;

I understand that students for COMS2200 have been blocked from
posting to OSM.

There was also an unfortunate email sent to Carleton University
by one of your members that is circulating through the
administration from (james2...@gmail.com
).

The data are being contributed as part of an assignment
described here - https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A


I understand that the students are making some small and some
large mistakes that may not meet your OSM data quality
standards.  The students are restricted to only be mapping the
Carleton University Campus.

I wonder if it might be possible to unlock the restriction to
let them finish the assignment.  They should be done by next
week. There are 150 students.  Once the assignment is complete I
would gladly work with you to salvage the data, delete some
data, repair some data or wipe all of the data.

We apologize for this inconvenience and hope that you can be
empathetic and allow for the assignment to be completed so that
the students can be assessed.

Also, perhaps there are a number of common errors and if you
identify them we may be able to fix them.

Sincerely
Tracey

-- 
*/Tracey P. Lauriault/*


Assistant Professor Critical Media Studies and Big Data
Communication Studies School of Journalism and Communication
Suite 4110, River Building Carleton University 1125 Colonel By
Drive Ottawa (ON) K1S 5B6

1-613-520-2600 x7443 
tracey.lauria...@carleton.ca
@TraceyLauriault
Skype: Tracey.P.Lauriault
https://carleton.ca/sjc/people-archives/lauriault-tracey/


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Re: [Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[James]

1. the restriction was a login(zero minute) block to grab users attention
after multiple attempts trying to contact:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/YueYuan/history#map=18/45.35567/-75.75291
so once they login and view the message they can edit again

2. They have not been editing just around Carleton Campus, there have been
students editing out on baseline and other areas of Ottawa

3. I've been trying to fix them, but at 1000+ changesets this is going to
be a monumental task.

I'm not trying to stop your students from contributing, but when they
simply ignore advice we try to give them to correct said actions(kept
contributing after multiple changeset comments: they get an email per
changeset comment) we need a higher power(admins) to step in so we can
discuss like human beings.


On Oct 10, 2017 10:14 PM, "Tracey P. Lauriault"  wrote:

Greetings OSM mappers;

I understand that students for COMS2200 have been blocked from posting to
OSM.

There was also an unfortunate email sent to Carleton University by one of
your members that is circulating through the administration from (
james2...@gmail.com).

The data are being contributed as part of an assignment described here -
https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A

I understand that the students are making some small and some large
mistakes that may not meet your OSM data quality standards.  The students
are restricted to only be mapping the Carleton University Campus.

I wonder if it might be possible to unlock the restriction to let them
finish the assignment.  They should be done by next week. There are 150
students.  Once the assignment is complete I would gladly work with you to
salvage the data, delete some data, repair some data or wipe all of the
data.

We apologize for this inconvenience and hope that you can be empathetic and
allow for the assignment to be completed so that the students can be
assessed.

Also, perhaps there are a number of common errors and if you identify them
we may be able to fix them.

Sincerely
Tracey

-- 
*Tracey P. Lauriault*

Assistant Professor
Critical Media Studies and Big Data
Communication Studies
School of Journalism and Communication
Suite 4110, River Building
Carleton University
1125 Colonel By Drive
Ottawa (ON) K1S 5B6

1-613-520-2600 x7443 <(613)%20520-2600>
tracey.lauria...@carleton.ca
@TraceyLauriault
Skype: Tracey.P.Lauriault
https://carleton.ca/sjc/people-archives/lauriault-tracey/

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[Talk-ca] COMS2200 Ottawa, Carleton University

[Tracey P. Lauriault]

Greetings OSM mappers;

I understand that students for COMS2200 have been blocked from posting to
OSM.

There was also an unfortunate email sent to Carleton University by one of
your members that is circulating through the administration from (
james2...@gmail.com).

The data are being contributed as part of an assignment described here -
https://github.com/TraceyLauriault/COMS2200A

I understand that the students are making some small and some large
mistakes that may not meet your OSM data quality standards.  The students
are restricted to only be mapping the Carleton University Campus.

I wonder if it might be possible to unlock the restriction to let them
finish the assignment.  They should be done by next week. There are 150
students.  Once the assignment is complete I would gladly work with you to
salvage the data, delete some data, repair some data or wipe all of the
data.

We apologize for this inconvenience and hope that you can be empathetic and
allow for the assignment to be completed so that the students can be
assessed.

Also, perhaps there are a number of common errors and if you identify them
we may be able to fix them.

Sincerely
Tracey

-- 
*Tracey P. Lauriault*

Assistant Professor
Critical Media Studies and Big Data
Communication Studies
School of Journalism and Communication
Suite 4110, River Building
Carleton University
1125 Colonel By Drive
Ottawa (ON) K1S 5B6

1-613-520-2600 x7443
tracey.lauria...@carleton.ca
@TraceyLauriault
Skype: Tracey.P.Lauriault
https://carleton.ca/sjc/people-archives/lauriault-tracey/
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