Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[Begin Daniel]

+1

Sent from Galaxy S7


From: Tim Elrick 
Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 7:09:11 PM
To: James; Begin Daniel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

Hi Daniel and James,

Sounds good, Daniel. Looking forward to see your tool. However, the Open
Building Database data for Montreal looks pretty good in terms of number
of nodes and orthogonalization. I am still working on how to break up
the building blocks, however, with much less time on my hand than you
seem to have. I will keep you posted as soon as I had some success.

Thanks, James, for your kind offer. If we decide to import, which we
will discuss on the local list first, we then will provide an import
plan and will get back to for the technical implementation of providing
the tiles on the tasking manager.

I suggest, we continue this conversation on the Montréal list
(challenging my French capabilities).

Tim

On 2019-03-04 19:48, James wrote:
I could serve the output using the microdataservice and the osncanada
task manager(multiple tasks)

https://github.com/osmottawa/micro-data-service

On Mon., Mar. 4, 2019, 7:16 p.m. Begin Daniel, mailto:jfd...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

 Tim, 

 I have plenty of free time and I am interested in this import. I am
 about to complete a pre-processing tool that seems to
 “orthogonalize” building footprints pretty well using FME (safe
 software). I plan to present/discuss its functionalities next week
 on this list (vertex filtering, ensuring right angles, sorting
 building according to processing results, etc.). I have not examined
 how to break up building blocks into single units yet but I am
 interested to include it in the pre-processing tool if it is
 possible.

 __ __

 Daniel

 __ __

 *From:*Tim Elrick [mailto:o...@elrick.de <mailto:o...@elrick.de>]
 *Sent:* Saturday, March 02, 2019 19:58
 *To:* talk-ca@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>
 *Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building
 outlines for Canada

 __ __

 Hi Steve,

 __ __

 As for Montreal: We will create an import plan on the wiki as soon
 as we have expanded the discussion about the Montreal import from
 our local face-to-face group to the Montreal OSM list and agreed on
 importing. Before we do this, we wanted to test the feasibility of
 the pre-processing first, as it involves quite some postgis coding
 to break up the building blocks into single buildings. Only
 thereafter, we will suggest an import (or not), depending on the
 feasibility of extracting single buildings. Otherwise we will follow
 the hand-drawn approach as usual (and as it is done on a daily basis
 at the moment by a couple of OSMappers).

 __ __

 The Microsoft data set might still be useful for remote areas. Let's
 explore this altogether.

 __ __

 Cheers,

 Tim

 __ __


 On 2019-03-02 19:17, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

 On Mar 2, 2019, at 3:47 PM, John Whelan
<mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>  wrote:

 Two years ago a group of Toronto mappers submitted the City of
Toronto Open Data license to the LWG to see if it was acceptable.  I
assume they meant to import things such as building outlines.  I also
assumed as I think others did that this meant Toronto mappers were happy
to import the City of Toronto's data especially as it was discussed on
talk-ca first.

 Historical info is appreciated for context, however, the LWG found
Canada-wide city-by-city submissions for ODbL-compliance burdensome,
given LWG's limited bandwidth.  Assuming about events in the past is
unhelpful, first because it is assuming (seldom helpful) and second,
these events are in the past.  How Toronto imported (building) data
can't really help us first understand and second improve from what we
learn until we know what we learned.  That isn't presented here, but it
could be.

 __  __

 More recently Nate who currently lives in Toronto feels that
this should be discussed once more in Toronto to work out what is
desired etc.

 I agree with Nate.  Perhaps first in Toronto, perhaps wider in
talk-ca.  "Once more" seems limiting, though it's possible it could
suffice.

 __  __

 Tim I think is organising Montreal open data import.

 Please consider adding this (and links to user: wiki or Talk pages)
to the active Import wiki.  Generate communication using our media!

 __  __

 I note that Nate and Tim have different ideas about what should
be imported.  One is happy with bay windows and I think the other feels
they should be removed.

 More discussion often yields consensus, especially as it "goes
wide" (or as wide as is practical).

 __  __

   

Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[Tim Elrick]

Hi Daniel and James,

Sounds good, Daniel. Looking forward to see your tool. However, the Open 
Building Database data for Montreal looks pretty good in terms of number 
of nodes and orthogonalization. I am still working on how to break up 
the building blocks, however, with much less time on my hand than you 
seem to have. I will keep you posted as soon as I had some success.


Thanks, James, for your kind offer. If we decide to import, which we 
will discuss on the local list first, we then will provide an import 
plan and will get back to for the technical implementation of providing 
the tiles on the tasking manager.


I suggest, we continue this conversation on the Montréal list 
(challenging my French capabilities).


Tim

On 2019-03-04 19:48, James wrote:
I could serve the output using the microdataservice and the osncanada
task manager(multiple tasks)

https://github.com/osmottawa/micro-data-service

On Mon., Mar. 4, 2019, 7:16 p.m. Begin Daniel, mailto:jfd...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Tim, 

I have plenty of free time and I am interested in this import. I am
about to complete a pre-processing tool that seems to
“orthogonalize” building footprints pretty well using FME (safe
software). I plan to present/discuss its functionalities next week
on this list (vertex filtering, ensuring right angles, sorting
building according to processing results, etc.). I have not examined
how to break up building blocks into single units yet but I am
interested to include it in the pre-processing tool if it is
possible.

__ __

Daniel

__ __

*From:*Tim Elrick [mailto:o...@elrick.de ]
*Sent:* Saturday, March 02, 2019 19:58
*To:* talk-ca@openstreetmap.org 
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building
outlines for Canada

__ __

Hi Steve,

__ __

As for Montreal: We will create an import plan on the wiki as soon
as we have expanded the discussion about the Montreal import from
our local face-to-face group to the Montreal OSM list and agreed on
importing. Before we do this, we wanted to test the feasibility of
the pre-processing first, as it involves quite some postgis coding
to break up the building blocks into single buildings. Only
thereafter, we will suggest an import (or not), depending on the
feasibility of extracting single buildings. Otherwise we will follow
the hand-drawn approach as usual (and as it is done on a daily basis
at the moment by a couple of OSMappers).

__ __

The Microsoft data set might still be useful for remote areas. Let's
explore this altogether.

__ __

Cheers,

Tim

__ __


On 2019-03-02 19:17, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

On Mar 2, 2019, at 3:47 PM, John Whelan 
  wrote:


Two years ago a group of Toronto mappers submitted the City of 
Toronto Open Data license to the LWG to see if it was acceptable.  I 
assume they meant to import things such as building outlines.  I also 
assumed as I think others did that this meant Toronto mappers were happy 
to import the City of Toronto's data especially as it was discussed on 
talk-ca first.


Historical info is appreciated for context, however, the LWG found 
Canada-wide city-by-city submissions for ODbL-compliance burdensome, 
given LWG's limited bandwidth.  Assuming about events in the past is 
unhelpful, first because it is assuming (seldom helpful) and second, 
these events are in the past.  How Toronto imported (building) data 
can't really help us first understand and second improve from what we 
learn until we know what we learned.  That isn't presented here, but it 
could be.


__  __

More recently Nate who currently lives in Toronto feels that 
this should be discussed once more in Toronto to work out what is 
desired etc.


I agree with Nate.  Perhaps first in Toronto, perhaps wider in 
talk-ca.  "Once more" seems limiting, though it's possible it could 
suffice.


__  __

Tim I think is organising Montreal open data import.

Please consider adding this (and links to user: wiki or Talk pages) 
to the active Import wiki.  Generate communication using our media!


__  __

I note that Nate and Tim have different ideas about what should 
be imported.  One is happy with bay windows and I think the other feels 
they should be removed.


More discussion often yields consensus, especially as it "goes 
wide" (or as wide as is practical).


__  __

We also have Pierre who is unhappy because the imported 
building outlines available have too many corners that are not right 
angles.


More discussion often yields consensus.

__  __

The local Ottawa mappers are content with their Open Data 
import and find the data quality 

Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[James]

I could serve the output using the microdataservice and the osncanada task
manager(multiple tasks)

https://github.com/osmottawa/micro-data-service

On Mon., Mar. 4, 2019, 7:16 p.m. Begin Daniel,  wrote:

> Tim,
>
> I have plenty of free time and I am interested in this import. I am about
> to complete a pre-processing tool that seems to “orthogonalize” building
> footprints pretty well using FME (safe software). I plan to present/discuss
> its functionalities next week on this list (vertex filtering, ensuring
> right angles, sorting building according to processing results, etc.). I
> have not examined how to break up building blocks into single units yet but
> I am interested to include it in the pre-processing tool if it is possible.
>
>
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> *From:* Tim Elrick [mailto:o...@elrick.de]
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 02, 2019 19:58
> *To:* talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for
> Canada
>
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
>
>
> As for Montreal: We will create an import plan on the wiki as soon as we
> have expanded the discussion about the Montreal import from our local
> face-to-face group to the Montreal OSM list and agreed on importing. Before
> we do this, we wanted to test the feasibility of the pre-processing first,
> as it involves quite some postgis coding to break up the building blocks
> into single buildings. Only thereafter, we will suggest an import (or not),
> depending on the feasibility of extracting single buildings. Otherwise we
> will follow the hand-drawn approach as usual (and as it is done on a daily
> basis at the moment by a couple of OSMappers).
>
>
>
> The Microsoft data set might still be useful for remote areas. Let's
> explore this altogether.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> On 2019-03-02 19:17, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:
>
> On Mar 2, 2019, at 3:47 PM, John Whelan  
>  wrote:
>
> Two years ago a group of Toronto mappers submitted the City of Toronto Open 
> Data license to the LWG to see if it was acceptable.  I assume they meant to 
> import things such as building outlines.  I also assumed as I think others 
> did that this meant Toronto mappers were happy to import the City of 
> Toronto's data especially as it was discussed on talk-ca first.
>
> Historical info is appreciated for context, however, the LWG found 
> Canada-wide city-by-city submissions for ODbL-compliance burdensome, given 
> LWG's limited bandwidth.  Assuming about events in the past is unhelpful, 
> first because it is assuming (seldom helpful) and second, these events are in 
> the past.  How Toronto imported (building) data can't really help us first 
> understand and second improve from what we learn until we know what we 
> learned.  That isn't presented here, but it could be.
>
>
>
> More recently Nate who currently lives in Toronto feels that this should be 
> discussed once more in Toronto to work out what is desired etc.
>
> I agree with Nate.  Perhaps first in Toronto, perhaps wider in talk-ca.  
> "Once more" seems limiting, though it's possible it could suffice.
>
>
>
> Tim I think is organising Montreal open data import.
>
> Please consider adding this (and links to user: wiki or Talk pages) to the 
> active Import wiki.  Generate communication using our media!
>
>
>
> I note that Nate and Tim have different ideas about what should be imported.  
> One is happy with bay windows and I think the other feels they should be 
> removed.
>
> More discussion often yields consensus, especially as it "goes wide" (or as 
> wide as is practical).
>
>
>
> We also have Pierre who is unhappy because the imported building outlines 
> available have too many corners that are not right angles.
>
> More discussion often yields consensus.
>
>
>
> The local Ottawa mappers are content with their Open Data import and find the 
> data quality acceptable even though Pierre has expressed reservations about 
> it.
>
> More discussion often yields consensus.  Wide area (large cities, 
> province-wide, nationwide) imports are not easy to achieve consensus but can 
> often reach something approaching one as data are entered, not liked, 
> improved, liked better, et cetera.  These are often an interactive, iterative 
> process.
>
>
>
> Someone in Manitoba? mentioned there were no building outlines released for 
> Manitoba?  I apologise if I have the province name wrong.
>
> It is spelled correctly.  I am not Canadian and I know that; it isn't hard to 
> spell-check Manitoba.
>
>
>
> So we have a mixture of expectations which is only to be expected in a large 
> group

Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[Begin Daniel]

Tim,
I have plenty of free time and I am interested in this import. I am about to 
complete a pre-processing tool that seems to “orthogonalize” building 
footprints pretty well using FME (safe software). I plan to present/discuss its 
functionalities next week on this list (vertex filtering, ensuring right 
angles, sorting building according to processing results, etc.). I have not 
examined how to break up building blocks into single units yet but I am 
interested to include it in the pre-processing tool if it is possible.

Daniel

From: Tim Elrick [mailto:o...@elrick.de]
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2019 19:58
To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

Hi Steve,

As for Montreal: We will create an import plan on the wiki as soon as we have 
expanded the discussion about the Montreal import from our local face-to-face 
group to the Montreal OSM list and agreed on importing. Before we do this, we 
wanted to test the feasibility of the pre-processing first, as it involves 
quite some postgis coding to break up the building blocks into single 
buildings. Only thereafter, we will suggest an import (or not), depending on 
the feasibility of extracting single buildings. Otherwise we will follow the 
hand-drawn approach as usual (and as it is done on a daily basis at the moment 
by a couple of OSMappers).

The Microsoft data set might still be useful for remote areas. Let's explore 
this altogether.

Cheers,
Tim


On 2019-03-02 19:17, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

On Mar 2, 2019, at 3:47 PM, John Whelan 
<mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote:

Two years ago a group of Toronto mappers submitted the City of Toronto Open 
Data license to the LWG to see if it was acceptable.  I assume they meant to 
import things such as building outlines.  I also assumed as I think others did 
that this meant Toronto mappers were happy to import the City of Toronto's data 
especially as it was discussed on talk-ca first.

Historical info is appreciated for context, however, the LWG found Canada-wide 
city-by-city submissions for ODbL-compliance burdensome, given LWG's limited 
bandwidth.  Assuming about events in the past is unhelpful, first because it is 
assuming (seldom helpful) and second, these events are in the past.  How 
Toronto imported (building) data can't really help us first understand and 
second improve from what we learn until we know what we learned.  That isn't 
presented here, but it could be.



More recently Nate who currently lives in Toronto feels that this should be 
discussed once more in Toronto to work out what is desired etc.

I agree with Nate.  Perhaps first in Toronto, perhaps wider in talk-ca.  "Once 
more" seems limiting, though it's possible it could suffice.



Tim I think is organising Montreal open data import.

Please consider adding this (and links to user: wiki or Talk pages) to the 
active Import wiki.  Generate communication using our media!



I note that Nate and Tim have different ideas about what should be imported.  
One is happy with bay windows and I think the other feels they should be 
removed.

More discussion often yields consensus, especially as it "goes wide" (or as 
wide as is practical).



We also have Pierre who is unhappy because the imported building outlines 
available have too many corners that are not right angles.

More discussion often yields consensus.



The local Ottawa mappers are content with their Open Data import and find the 
data quality acceptable even though Pierre has expressed reservations about it.

More discussion often yields consensus.  Wide area (large cities, 
province-wide, nationwide) imports are not easy to achieve consensus but can 
often reach something approaching one as data are entered, not liked, improved, 
liked better, et cetera.  These are often an interactive, iterative process.



Someone in Manitoba? mentioned there were no building outlines released for 
Manitoba?  I apologise if I have the province name wrong.

It is spelled correctly.  I am not Canadian and I know that; it isn't hard to 
spell-check Manitoba.



So we have a mixture of expectations which is only to be expected in a large 
group.

More discussion often yields consensus.  It might be part "mixture of 
expectations" but I'm sure that everyone will agree that "high quality data 
entering OSM" is expected.  What can be difficult is "what do we mean by high 
quality?" (in addition to establishing and communicating clear goals for the 
importation of the data).



Microsoft's Open Data provides another source of Open Data which might meet 
Pierre's data quality expectations.  They may meet Nate's.  All provinces and 
Territories now have Open Data building outlines available.

OK, thanks for the clarification that a "union" of these datasets (Stats 
Canada-produced building data + Microsoft-produced building data) provide an 
"all

Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019, 7:45 PM Tim Elrick,  wrote:
> Just my two cents here.

There are plenty of others doing so, too (me included, though I'll happily 
deduct a cent for being non-Canadian, so before you know it, you've got a whole 
dollar.  "Many hands make light work," though I agree that achieving consensus 
on a nationwide import can be (and often is) quite difficult.  I'm not trolling 
here, I wish to be encouraging and have decided to go crawl back under my rock 
for awhile to pursue other OSM endeavors (south of our border).

Cheers,
SteveA
___
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Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[Tim Elrick]

Hi Steve,

As for Montreal: We will create an import plan on the wiki as soon as we 
have expanded the discussion about the Montreal import from our local 
face-to-face group to the Montreal OSM list and agreed on importing. 
Before we do this, we wanted to test the feasibility of the 
pre-processing first, as it involves quite some postgis coding to break 
up the building blocks into single buildings. Only thereafter, we will 
suggest an import (or not), depending on the feasibility of extracting 
single buildings. Otherwise we will follow the hand-drawn approach as 
usual (and as it is done on a daily basis at the moment by a couple of 
OSMappers).


The Microsoft data set might still be useful for remote areas. Let's 
explore this altogether.


Cheers,
Tim


On 2019-03-02 19:17, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

On Mar 2, 2019, at 3:47 PM, John Whelan  wrote:


Two years ago a group of Toronto mappers submitted the City of Toronto Open 
Data license to the LWG to see if it was acceptable.  I assume they meant to 
import things such as building outlines.  I also assumed as I think others did 
that this meant Toronto mappers were happy to import the City of Toronto's data 
especially as it was discussed on talk-ca first.


Historical info is appreciated for context, however, the LWG found Canada-wide 
city-by-city submissions for ODbL-compliance burdensome, given LWG's limited 
bandwidth.  Assuming about events in the past is unhelpful, first because it is 
assuming (seldom helpful) and second, these events are in the past.  How 
Toronto imported (building) data can't really help us first understand and 
second improve from what we learn until we know what we learned.  That isn't 
presented here, but it could be.


More recently Nate who currently lives in Toronto feels that this should be 
discussed once more in Toronto to work out what is desired etc.


I agree with Nate.  Perhaps first in Toronto, perhaps wider in talk-ca.  "Once 
more" seems limiting, though it's possible it could suffice.


Tim I think is organising Montreal open data import.


Please consider adding this (and links to user: wiki or Talk pages) to the 
active Import wiki.  Generate communication using our media!


I note that Nate and Tim have different ideas about what should be imported.  
One is happy with bay windows and I think the other feels they should be 
removed.


More discussion often yields consensus, especially as it "goes wide" (or as 
wide as is practical).


We also have Pierre who is unhappy because the imported building outlines 
available have too many corners that are not right angles.


More discussion often yields consensus.


The local Ottawa mappers are content with their Open Data import and find the 
data quality acceptable even though Pierre has expressed reservations about it.


More discussion often yields consensus.  Wide area (large cities, 
province-wide, nationwide) imports are not easy to achieve consensus but can 
often reach something approaching one as data are entered, not liked, improved, 
liked better, et cetera.  These are often an interactive, iterative process.


Someone in Manitoba? mentioned there were no building outlines released for 
Manitoba?  I apologise if I have the province name wrong.


It is spelled correctly.  I am not Canadian and I know that; it isn't hard to 
spell-check Manitoba.


So we have a mixture of expectations which is only to be expected in a large 
group.


More discussion often yields consensus.  It might be part "mixture of expectations" but I'm sure 
that everyone will agree that "high quality data entering OSM" is expected.  What can be difficult 
is "what do we mean by high quality?" (in addition to establishing and communicating clear goals 
for the importation of the data).


Microsoft's Open Data provides another source of Open Data which might meet 
Pierre's data quality expectations.  They may meet Nate's.  All provinces and 
Territories now have Open Data building outlines available.


OK, thanks for the clarification that a "union" of these datasets (Stats Canada-produced building 
data + Microsoft-produced building data) provide an "all provinces and Territories dataset."  That 
truly is helpful as it makes it clear that "if Set A doesn't have your province's or Territory's 
building data, Set B will."


Northwest Territories, Nunavut, and Yukon have populations of around 35,000 
people.  Realistically I don't think they have a group of local OSM mappers.


Please don't "write them off" so easily.  Not only does it seem "not nice," it may not be true.  A 
better approach may be to actively develop community there, difficult as that might seem.  I believe there is usually 
Internet available there in the villages (sometimes via clever and state-of-the-art methodologies) and it may be as 
simple as "shaking the trees" of the right people, then "they'll take it from there."


Essentially the problem now we no longer have a Canada wide consensus on what 
is 

Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[Tim Elrick]

Hi everyone,

Thanks John for pointing out the new dataset!

Steve, John just indicated that there is this new dataset available now. 
I am confident, that after our discussion on importing building 
footprints in Canada, the OSMappers who want to go forward with it, will 
provide the information on the import plan/wiki.


You can download the Microsoft file at the site indicated by John. The 
license information can be found there as well (as mentioned by James it 
is ODbL. It is much more extensive than the Open Building Database 
release by StatCan (> 12 million buildings vs. 4.4 million buildings).


So, I got interested and I had a look at the data for Montreal: 
https://imgur.com/a/PwuZ3Q5
I chose an area where OSM data existed. As you can see OSM hand-drawn 
buildings from Bing imagery are nicely drawn and separated.
When you compare the OSM data to the Open Building Database (OBD) data 
from StatCan (brown in my images) which draws on the données ouvertes de 
Ville de Montréal (extracted from photogrammetric imagery) you can see 
that the OBD data is somehow more precise than the OSM/Bing data, but 
the huge draw back is that the OBD data only captures the building 
outlines of attached/terraced buildings, i.e. of building blocks without 
separating single buildings (as already mentioned by me in a separated 
e-mail to the list - this is why we will have to do some pre-processing 
of the data).
When you then compare this data set to the Microsoft data set (pink in 
my images), you see that their deep neural network approach fails in 
areas with terraced houses big time. Same goes for the the city centre 
of Montreal (not shown in my images).


So, the Microsoft data set might work for areas with single homes and 
that would be helpful to fill in the blanks in remote areas, but for 
areas where we have data from the ODB, importing from the ODB might be 
better. However, caution has to be taken with ODB as well, as every 
municipality that contributed data might have contributed a different 
data source, where the quality should be check each time.


Just my two cents here.

Tim


On 2019-03-02 17:40, john whelan wrote:

Why are you planning to import it?

Cheerio John

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019, 5:26 PM OSM Volunteer stevea, 
mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com>> wrote:


   A responsible complement to this would be a link to license
   information, a wiki page about these data, and perhaps an Import
   Plan should those data actually be asserted to be worthy of being
   responsibly imported into OSM.

   SteveA
   California

> On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:17 PM, john whelan mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> https://github.com/Microsoft/CanadianBuildingFootprints
>
> So now there are two Open Data sources for building outlines in
   Canada.
>
> Cheerio John
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca


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On 2019-03-02 17:49, James wrote:
M$ released data as ODbL so pretty sure license is compatible

On Sat., Mar. 2, 2019, 5:27 p.m. OSM Volunteer stevea, 
mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com>> wrote:


   A responsible complement to this would be a link to license
   information, a wiki page about these data, and perhaps an Import
   Plan should those data actually be asserted to be worthy of being
   responsibly imported into OSM.

   SteveA
   California

> On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:17 PM, john whelan mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> https://github.com/Microsoft/CanadianBuildingFootprints
>
> So now there are two Open Data sources for building outlines in
   Canada.
>
> Cheerio John
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca


   ___
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On 2019-03-02 17:49, James wrote:
M$ released data as ODbL so pretty sure license is compatible

On Sat., Mar. 2, 2019, 5:27 p.m. OSM Volunteer stevea, 
mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com>> wrote:


   A responsible complement to this would be a link to license
   information, a wiki page about these data, and perhaps an Import
   Plan should those data actually be asserted to be worthy of being
   responsibly imported into OSM.

   SteveA
   California

> On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:17 PM, john whelan mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> 

Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[john whelan]

Please read Tim's comments below I suspect he meant to cc talk-ca.

My thoughts run along the same lines as Tim's basically local groups have
to look at what is available then decide for themselves how they wish to
proceed.

We have some experience in the import process available but I think it
needs to be driven by local mappers since they are the authority.

Cheerio John

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019, 7:45 PM Tim Elrick,  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Thanks John for pointing out the new dataset!
>
> Steve, John just indicated that there is this new dataset available now. I
> am confident, that after our discussion on importing building footprints in
> Canada, the OSMappers who want to go forward with it, will provide the
> information on the import plan/wiki.
>
> You can download the Microsoft file at the site indicated by John. The
> license information can be found there as well (as mentioned by James it is
> ODbL. It is much more extensive than the Open Building Database release by
> StatCan (> 12 million buildings vs. 4.4 million buildings).
>
> So, I got interested and I had a look at the data for Montreal:
> https://imgur.com/a/PwuZ3Q5
> I chose an area where OSM data existed. As you can see OSM hand-drawn
> buildings from Bing imagery are nicely drawn and separated.
> When you compare the OSM data to the Open Building Database (OBD) data
> from StatCan (brown in my images) which draws on the données ouvertes de
> Ville de Montréal (extracted from photogrammetric imagery) you can see that
> the OBD data is somehow more precise than the OSM/Bing data, but the huge
> draw back is that the OBD data only captures the building outlines of
> attached/terraced buildings, i.e. of building blocks without separating
> single buildings (as already mentioned by me in a separated e-mail to the
> list - this is why we will have to do some pre-processing of the data).
> When you then compare this data set to the Microsoft data set (pink in my
> images), you see that their deep neural network approach fails in areas
> with terraced houses big time. Same goes for the the city centre of
> Montreal (not shown in my images).
>
> So, the Microsoft data set might work for areas with single homes and that
> would be helpful to fill in the blanks in remote areas, but for areas where
> we have data from the ODB, importing from the ODB might be better. However,
> caution has to be taken with ODB as well, as every municipality that
> contributed data might have contributed a different data source, where the
> quality should be check each time.
>
> Just my two cents here.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 2019-03-02 17:40, john whelan wrote:
> Why are you planning to import it?
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Sat, Mar 2, 2019, 5:26 PM OSM Volunteer stevea, <
> stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:
>
>> A responsible complement to this would be a link to license information,
>> a wiki page about these data, and perhaps an Import Plan should those data
>> actually be asserted to be worthy of being responsibly imported into OSM.
>>
>> SteveA
>> California
>>
>> > On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:17 PM, john whelan  wrote:
>> >
>> > https://github.com/Microsoft/CanadianBuildingFootprints
>> >
>> > So now there are two Open Data sources for building outlines in Canada.
>> >
>> > Cheerio John
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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

John, these aren't my fish to fry; this endeavor belongs primarily to Canadian 
OSM volunteers with optimistic attitudes who have the courage to envision a 
finish line of mighty and pride-inspiring results into existence.  Being 
encouraging, my feeling is it IS possible to reach consensus across Canada.  It 
might be rough going at first, it might seem like the iterative process is 
taxing or even exhausting at times (especially early on in the project, as it 
is now), yet patience, the realization that when you bite off a nationwide data 
importation you'll have to chew (and chew and chew and chew...) before you can 
swallow a bit and recognize some important milestone of progress, but I am 100% 
certain Canada can and will get there.  It is already in the process of doing 
so, and while "sausage making can be a mess!" I'm sure there are many who look 
forward to delicious results.  Be heartened and courageous, be optimistic and 
visionary.  If or as you don't, others will (and already have).  Keep up the 
good work, everybody!

SteveA
(who usually doesn't like to be simply a cheerleader, though sometimes it helps)

> On Mar 2, 2019, at 4:33 PM, John Whelan  wrote:
> 
> >More discussion often yields consensus. 
> 
> Feel free to lead the discussion and gain consensus.
> 
> My feeling is it will not be possible to reach one across Canada.
> 
> Good Luck
> 
> Cheerio John

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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[John Whelan]

>More discussion often yields consensus.

Feel free to lead the discussion and gain consensus.

My feeling is it will not be possible to reach one across Canada.

Good Luck

Cheerio John


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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[John Whelan]

I would concur in general but any import needs the agreement of local 
mappers and I think we have to define who they are first.


Cheerio John

Danny McDonald wrote on 2019-03-02 7:23 PM:
Just looking at the data for some random areas, it looks like the 
quality is comparable to hand-drawn buildings (but not as good as most 
municipal data).  There are some weirdly rotated and sized buildings, 
as well as some missing buildings, there may be other problems in 
areas I haven't examined.

A few comments:
- The StatsCan data is of better quality, it should be used instead of 
the Microsoft data when possible.
- Existing hand-drawn/imported buildings should not be replaced by the 
Microsoft data (except for CanVec buildings, maybe).
- In any import, the bigger provinces should be split into smaller 
areas (counties or regions)

DannyMcD
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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[Danny McDonald]

Just looking at the data for some random areas, it looks like the quality
is comparable to hand-drawn buildings (but not as good as most municipal
data).  There are some weirdly rotated and sized buildings, as well as some
missing buildings, there may be other problems in areas I haven't examined.
A few comments:
- The StatsCan data is of better quality, it should be used instead of the
Microsoft data when possible.
- Existing hand-drawn/imported buildings should not be replaced by the
Microsoft data (except for CanVec buildings, maybe).
- In any import, the bigger provinces should be split into smaller areas
(counties or regions)
DannyMcD
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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Mar 2, 2019, at 3:47 PM, John Whelan  wrote:
> Two years ago a group of Toronto mappers submitted the City of Toronto Open 
> Data license to the LWG to see if it was acceptable.  I assume they meant to 
> import things such as building outlines.  I also assumed as I think others 
> did that this meant Toronto mappers were happy to import the City of 
> Toronto's data especially as it was discussed on talk-ca first.

Historical info is appreciated for context, however, the LWG found Canada-wide 
city-by-city submissions for ODbL-compliance burdensome, given LWG's limited 
bandwidth.  Assuming about events in the past is unhelpful, first because it is 
assuming (seldom helpful) and second, these events are in the past.  How 
Toronto imported (building) data can't really help us first understand and 
second improve from what we learn until we know what we learned.  That isn't 
presented here, but it could be.

> More recently Nate who currently lives in Toronto feels that this should be 
> discussed once more in Toronto to work out what is desired etc.

I agree with Nate.  Perhaps first in Toronto, perhaps wider in talk-ca.  "Once 
more" seems limiting, though it's possible it could suffice.

> Tim I think is organising Montreal open data import.

Please consider adding this (and links to user: wiki or Talk pages) to the 
active Import wiki.  Generate communication using our media!

> I note that Nate and Tim have different ideas about what should be imported.  
> One is happy with bay windows and I think the other feels they should be 
> removed.

More discussion often yields consensus, especially as it "goes wide" (or as 
wide as is practical).

> We also have Pierre who is unhappy because the imported building outlines 
> available have too many corners that are not right angles.

More discussion often yields consensus.

> The local Ottawa mappers are content with their Open Data import and find the 
> data quality acceptable even though Pierre has expressed reservations about 
> it.

More discussion often yields consensus.  Wide area (large cities, 
province-wide, nationwide) imports are not easy to achieve consensus but can 
often reach something approaching one as data are entered, not liked, improved, 
liked better, et cetera.  These are often an interactive, iterative process.

> Someone in Manitoba? mentioned there were no building outlines released for 
> Manitoba?  I apologise if I have the province name wrong.

It is spelled correctly.  I am not Canadian and I know that; it isn't hard to 
spell-check Manitoba.

> So we have a mixture of expectations which is only to be expected in a large 
> group.

More discussion often yields consensus.  It might be part "mixture of 
expectations" but I'm sure that everyone will agree that "high quality data 
entering OSM" is expected.  What can be difficult is "what do we mean by high 
quality?" (in addition to establishing and communicating clear goals for the 
importation of the data).

> Microsoft's Open Data provides another source of Open Data which might meet 
> Pierre's data quality expectations.  They may meet Nate's.  All provinces and 
> Territories now have Open Data building outlines available.

OK, thanks for the clarification that a "union" of these datasets (Stats 
Canada-produced building data + Microsoft-produced building data) provide an 
"all provinces and Territories dataset."  That truly is helpful as it makes it 
clear that "if Set A doesn't have your province's or Territory's building data, 
Set B will."

> Northwest Territories, Nunavut, and Yukon have populations of around 35,000 
> people.  Realistically I don't think they have a group of local OSM mappers.

Please don't "write them off" so easily.  Not only does it seem "not nice," it 
may not be true.  A better approach may be to actively develop community there, 
difficult as that might seem.  I believe there is usually Internet available 
there in the villages (sometimes via clever and state-of-the-art methodologies) 
and it may be as simple as "shaking the trees" of the right people, then 
"they'll take it from there."

> Essentially the problem now we no longer have a Canada wide consensus on what 
> is acceptable

More discussion often yields consensus.

> ...appears to be how do you identify local mappers across Canada and how far 
> away can a "local" mapper be to be considered local since it is the local 
> mappers who make the decision about what is acceptable and I think it is they 
> who have to drive the import process.

There are no such "hard and fast" rules as this.  I think you're on the right 
track that "hinterland" (I do not mean that disparagingly, rather more like 
"far away from others") OSM volunteers "drive the import process," so I again 
encourage you and others to "better develop" this community and let them, teach 
them, encourage them to "do what they will."

> I'm sure if a local group would like to contact me we can find resources to 
> assist them 

Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[John Whelan]

Two years ago a group of Toronto mappers submitted the City of Toronto 
Open Data license to the LWG to see if it was acceptable.  I assume they 
meant to import things such as building outlines.  I also assumed as I 
think others did that this meant Toronto mappers were happy to import 
the City of Toronto's data especially as it was discussed on talk-ca first.


More recently Nate who currently lives in Toronto feels that this should 
be discussed once more in Toronto to work out what is desired etc.


Tim I think is organising Montreal open data import.

I note that Nate and Tim have different ideas about what should be 
imported.  One is happy with bay windows and I think the other feels 
they should be removed.


We also have Pierre who is unhappy because the imported building 
outlines available have too many corners that are not right angles.


The local Ottawa mappers are content with their Open Data import and 
find the data quality acceptable even though Pierre has expressed 
reservations about it.


Someone in Manitoba? mentioned there were no building outlines released 
for Manitoba?  I apologise if I have the province name wrong.


So we have a mixture of expectations which is only to be expected in a 
large group.


Microsoft's Open Data provides another source of Open Data which might 
meet Pierre's data quality expectations.  They may meet Nate's.  All 
provinces and Territories now have Open Data building outlines available.


Northwest Territories, Nunavut, and Yukon have populations of around 
35,000 people.  Realistically I don't think they have a group of local 
OSM mappers.


The next four provinces in size range between 142,000 to 1,275,000.

The larger provinces contain Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary and 
Edmonton.


Essentially the problem now we no longer have a Canada wide consensus on 
what is acceptable appears to be how do you identify local mappers 
across Canada and how far away can a "local" mapper be to be considered 
local since it is the local mappers who make the decision about what is 
acceptable and I think it is they who have to drive the import process.


I'm sure if a local group would like to contact me we can find resources 
to assist them if required.


Cheerio John

OSM Volunteer stevea wrote on 2019-03-02 5:52 PM:

No, I am not planning to import these.  However, your notification that the data are 
available seems to be encouraging the data to BE imported into OSM.  Of course, there is 
a "more correct" way to do that.

Perhaps I might encourage you to sharpen up your intention for notifying talk-ca of the availability of the 
data.  Are they an additional source to ENTER into OSM?  (Thus importing them).  Or, perhaps you mean them to 
be a set of "comparison data" which might be used to verify or compare against the 
"other" data.  Although, then, should there be a discrepancy, the question becomes "which are 
(more) correct?"  I didn't see any of these issues addressed by your notification, which feel likes it 
begs these questions.  Thank you in advance for any follow-up that better clarifies.

Late notice just before I clicked Send:  thanks to James for letting us know 
here that the data are ODbL and therefore OSM-compatible.  (One down, perhaps a 
bit more to go).

SteveA


On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:40 PM, john whelan  wrote:

Why are you planning to import it?

Cheerio John

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019, 5:26 PM OSM Volunteer stevea,  
wrote:
A responsible complement to this would be a link to license information, a wiki 
page about these data, and perhaps an Import Plan should those data actually be 
asserted to be worthy of being responsibly imported into OSM.

SteveA
California


On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:17 PM, john whelan  wrote:

https://github.com/Microsoft/CanadianBuildingFootprints

So now there are two Open Data sources for building outlines in Canada.

Cheerio John
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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

No, I am not planning to import these.  However, your notification that the 
data are available seems to be encouraging the data to BE imported into OSM.  
Of course, there is a "more correct" way to do that.

Perhaps I might encourage you to sharpen up your intention for notifying 
talk-ca of the availability of the data.  Are they an additional source to 
ENTER into OSM?  (Thus importing them).  Or, perhaps you mean them to be a set 
of "comparison data" which might be used to verify or compare against the 
"other" data.  Although, then, should there be a discrepancy, the question 
becomes "which are (more) correct?"  I didn't see any of these issues addressed 
by your notification, which feel likes it begs these questions.  Thank you in 
advance for any follow-up that better clarifies.

Late notice just before I clicked Send:  thanks to James for letting us know 
here that the data are ODbL and therefore OSM-compatible.  (One down, perhaps a 
bit more to go).

SteveA

> On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:40 PM, john whelan  wrote:
> 
> Why are you planning to import it?
> 
> Cheerio John
> 
> On Sat, Mar 2, 2019, 5:26 PM OSM Volunteer stevea, 
>  wrote:
> A responsible complement to this would be a link to license information, a 
> wiki page about these data, and perhaps an Import Plan should those data 
> actually be asserted to be worthy of being responsibly imported into OSM.
> 
> SteveA
> California
> 
> > On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:17 PM, john whelan  wrote:
> > 
> > https://github.com/Microsoft/CanadianBuildingFootprints
> > 
> > So now there are two Open Data sources for building outlines in Canada.
> > 
> > Cheerio John
> > ___
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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[James]

M$ released data as ODbL so pretty sure license is compatible

On Sat., Mar. 2, 2019, 5:27 p.m. OSM Volunteer stevea, <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> A responsible complement to this would be a link to license information, a
> wiki page about these data, and perhaps an Import Plan should those data
> actually be asserted to be worthy of being responsibly imported into OSM.
>
> SteveA
> California
>
> > On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:17 PM, john whelan  wrote:
> >
> > https://github.com/Microsoft/CanadianBuildingFootprints
> >
> > So now there are two Open Data sources for building outlines in Canada.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> > ___
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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[john whelan]

Why are you planning to import it?

Cheerio John

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019, 5:26 PM OSM Volunteer stevea, <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> A responsible complement to this would be a link to license information, a
> wiki page about these data, and perhaps an Import Plan should those data
> actually be asserted to be worthy of being responsibly imported into OSM.
>
> SteveA
> California
>
> > On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:17 PM, john whelan  wrote:
> >
> > https://github.com/Microsoft/CanadianBuildingFootprints
> >
> > So now there are two Open Data sources for building outlines in Canada.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> > ___
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> > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

A responsible complement to this would be a link to license information, a wiki 
page about these data, and perhaps an Import Plan should those data actually be 
asserted to be worthy of being responsibly imported into OSM.

SteveA
California

> On Mar 2, 2019, at 2:17 PM, john whelan  wrote:
> 
> https://github.com/Microsoft/CanadianBuildingFootprints
> 
> So now there are two Open Data sources for building outlines in Canada.
> 
> Cheerio John
> ___
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[Talk-ca] Microsoft has released its building outlines for Canada

[john whelan]

https://github.com/Microsoft/CanadianBuildingFootprints

So now there are two Open Data sources for building outlines in Canada.

Cheerio John
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