Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-07-02 Thread Nathan Wessel 
I've asked about this over on the tagging list as well, in case anyone wants to 
follow the conversation there. I've been getting mixed messages on this issue 
so far... at the least if the tag is kept as-is and OSRM fixed, the restriction 
wiki page should be changed to acknowledge the possibility of turns on 
relations beginning with 'no_'.


Cheers,

Nate


From: Stewart C. Russell <scr...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 11:33:53 AM
To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto

On 2016-06-28 04:19 PM, Nathan Wessel wrote:
> It seems like conditional restrictions may be what we need.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Conditional_restrictions
>
> But it looks like we would be forging new ground if we went that
> direction. I don't see anything on that page about signals of any kind.
> (yet!)

OSRM seems to be programmatically narrow in its insistence on only
scanning the 'no_' part of the restriction. These are useful and clear
tags. Fix OSRM, not the map. Relations are already complex enough that
many mappers avoid them.

Coming from a country where the whole idea of turning on red is illegal
(and all pedestrian crossings are scramble crossings, as they should be)
I wonder if this is just a black swan to the developers?

cheers,
 Stewart


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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-06-29 Thread Stewart C. Russell 
On 2016-06-28 04:19 PM, Nathan Wessel wrote:
> It seems like conditional restrictions may be what we need.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Conditional_restrictions
> 
> But it looks like we would be forging new ground if we went that
> direction. I don't see anything on that page about signals of any kind.
> (yet!)

OSRM seems to be programmatically narrow in its insistence on only
scanning the 'no_' part of the restriction. These are useful and clear
tags. Fix OSRM, not the map. Relations are already complex enough that
many mappers avoid them.

Coming from a country where the whole idea of turning on red is illegal
(and all pedestrian crossings are scramble crossings, as they should be)
I wonder if this is just a black swan to the developers?

cheers,
 Stewart


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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-06-28 Thread Nathan Wessel 
It seems like conditional restrictions may be what we need.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Conditional_restrictions

But it looks like we would be forging new ground if we went that direction. I 
don't see anything on that page about signals of any kind. (yet!)


-Nate


From: Begin Daniel <jfd...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 4:07:15 PM
To: James; Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: RE: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto

Whatever the tag or its value, we need it.
There are (unfortunately) plenty of such restrictions in my neighbourhood that 
I never mapped because I did not know how to tag them.

Furthermore, and according to Wikipedia [1], there are whole cities where it 
remains illegal to turn right on a red anywhere, like Montreal and New York.

It is a must for routing...
Daniel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red


From: James [mailto:james2...@gmail.com]
Sent: June-28-16 15:46
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for 
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data
On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.



I'm routing with OSRM <http://project-osrm.org/>, which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org<http://openstreetmap.org>.


-Nate


From: James <james2...@gmail.com<mailto:james2...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?
On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.



https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red



There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:restriction#No_Turn_On_Red>,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.



Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?



I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.



Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design<http://www.vesaliusdesign.com>

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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-06-28 Thread Begin Daniel 
Whatever the tag or its value, we need it.
There are (unfortunately) plenty of such restrictions in my neighbourhood that 
I never mapped because I did not know how to tag them.

Furthermore, and according to Wikipedia [1], there are whole cities where it 
remains illegal to turn right on a red anywhere, like Montreal and New York.

It is a must for routing…
Daniel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red


From: James [mailto:james2...@gmail.com]
Sent: June-28-16 15:46
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for 
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data
On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.



I'm routing with OSRM <http://project-osrm.org/>, which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org<http://openstreetmap.org>.


-Nate


From: James <james2...@gmail.com<mailto:james2...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?
On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.



https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red



There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:restriction#No_Turn_On_Red>,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.



Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?



I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.



Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design<http://www.vesaliusdesign.com>

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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-06-28 Thread Nathan Wessel 
But it's not an bug, and the data should conform to established standards. 
Right now, the standard seems to be that restriction values beginning with 
'no_' mean 'no', not 'wait a minute'. Take a look at the wiki page:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction#Tags


-Nate


From: James <james2...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:45:46 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for 
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data

On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.


I'm routing with OSRM <http://project-osrm.org/>, which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org<http://openstreetmap.org>.


-Nate



From: James <james2...@gmail.com<mailto:james2...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?

On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red


There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:restriction#No_Turn_On_Red>,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.


Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?


I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.


Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design<http://www.vesaliusdesign.com>

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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-06-28 Thread James 
As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data
On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" <nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>
wrote:

> The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80
> of them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a
> more appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a
> restriction? Perhaps something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red",
> so that it doesn't get picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I
> don't think the developers are likely to bother checking for such an
> uncommon tag at this point.
>
>
> I'm routing with OSRM <http://project-osrm.org/>, which is also used on
> the homepage of openstreetmap.org.
>
>
> -Nate
>
> --
> *From:* James <james2...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
> *To:* Nathan Wessel
> *Cc:* Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing
> problems in Toronto
>
>
> What application were you using to route?
> On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" <nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon
>> turn restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.
>>
>>
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red
>>
>>
>> There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed
>> that they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using
>> OSRM. I posted about this on the restrictions talk page, here
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:restriction#No_Turn_On_Red>,
>> and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_',
>> it is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents
>> any turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.
>>
>>
>> Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they
>> contain some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop
>> restricting turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not
>> be 'restriction's, but something else?
>>
>>
>> I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good
>> suggestion here.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> *Nate Wessel*
>> Jack of all trades, master of geography
>>
>> 1-330-936-2849
>>
>> Vesalius Design <http://www.vesaliusdesign.com>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-06-28 Thread Nathan Wessel 
The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.


I'm routing with OSRM <http://project-osrm.org/>, which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org.


-Nate



From: James <james2...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?

On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red


There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:restriction#No_Turn_On_Red>,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.


Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?


I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.


Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design<http://www.vesaliusdesign.com>

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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-06-28 Thread James 
What application were you using to route?
On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon
> turn restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.
>
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red
>
>
> There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed
> that they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using
> OSRM. I posted about this on the restrictions talk page, here
> ,
> and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_',
> it is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents
> any turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.
>
>
> Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they
> contain some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop
> restricting turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not
> be 'restriction's, but something else?
>
>
> I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good
> suggestion here.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> *Nate Wessel*
> Jack of all trades, master of geography
>
> 1-330-936-2849
>
> Vesalius Design 
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-06-28 Thread Andrew MacKinnon 
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Nathan Wessel
 wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn
> restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.

No right turn on red signs are pretty common. You definitely shouldn't
delete them. This sounds like a bug in the routing software that needs
to fixed.

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[Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

2016-06-28 Thread Nathan Wessel 
Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red


There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.


Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?


I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.


Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design
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