Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham
Agree about PR value of timely information. Thanks Christoph, Andy, Brian. Meanwhile, I'm posting the updates to Twitter. Is there a way for new and inexperienced mappers to participate in updating the map? Andrew On 14 Jan 2010, at 17:31, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: That would be the plan. It's still fresh in everyone's minds right now so I suspect the newspapers would pick up on it if we got it done in the next few days and that’s a real possibility. Might be nice to do something jointly with BCC too. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Jeni Sent: 14 January 2010 5:23 PM To: Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham If we can get this to a point where it is more or less complete (for the area) before the next big freeze happens, there could be some good PR for OSM in the local area if someone were to issue a press release? Jeni Christoph Böhme wrote: Hi all, I created a map overlay showing the gritting routes (there are not many yet!) in Birmingham: http://mappa-mercia.org/bham-gritting/ The overlay works only from zoom layer 10-16. It is also not automatically updated. So, please drop me an email when you added new routes [1] and want them to appear on the map. Cheers, Christoph [1] Andy put a list of all routes up on the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/BirminghamGrittingPriority ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham
Andrew, I'd say probably not for totally new mappers as while the process of adding the additional tags is easy quite a lot of streets are only partly gritted and so you have to split up where required. Also a bit of thought has to go in to work out what happens at some roundabouts in terms of whether they are in the BCC gritting action and which priority they are. Having said that, anyone who has done a bit of mapping will find it pretty easy to do. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Andrew Mackenzie [mailto:a.macken...@bethere.co.uk] Sent: 14 January 2010 5:52 PM To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) Cc: Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham Agree about PR value of timely information. Thanks Christoph, Andy, Brian. Meanwhile, I'm posting the updates to Twitter. Is there a way for new and inexperienced mappers to participate in updating the map? Andrew On 14 Jan 2010, at 17:31, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: That would be the plan. It's still fresh in everyone's minds right now so I suspect the newspapers would pick up on it if we got it done in the next few days and thats a real possibility. Might be nice to do something jointly with BCC too. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Jeni Sent: 14 January 2010 5:23 PM To: Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham If we can get this to a point where it is more or less complete (for the area) before the next big freeze happens, there could be some good PR for OSM in the local area if someone were to issue a press release? Jeni Christoph Böhme wrote: Hi all, I created a map overlay showing the gritting routes (there are not many yet!) in Birmingham: http://mappa-mercia.org/bham-gritting/ The overlay works only from zoom layer 10-16. It is also not automatically updated. So, please drop me an email when you added new routes [1] and want them to appear on the map. Cheers, Christoph [1] Andy put a list of all routes up on the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/BirminghamGrittingPriority ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham
Looks like Christoph will be doing lots of re-rendering! As a by product I've discovered that lots of the primary/trunk roads which were mapped in the early days don't have names which makes the job interesting! If we make the effort what's the betting that we just have mild weather from now on? regards brian ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham
Where are we getting all the information from? I would like very much to do my bit (though I'd prefer to focus on the Bromsgrove area, if that data is available somewhere :), then there is scope for PR to the Bromsgrove papers too) Jeni ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham
Nice idea. I will add the overlay to the main mappa-mercia website over the weekend. Lets hope for some more snow :-) Cheers, Christoph Andy Robinson \(blackadder-lists\) ajrli...@googlemail.com schrieb: That would be the plan. It's still fresh in everyone's minds right now so I suspect the newspapers would pick up on it if we got it done in the next few days and that’s a real possibility. Might be nice to do something jointly with BCC too. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: talk-gb-westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-gb- westmidlands-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Jeni Sent: 14 January 2010 5:23 PM To: Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham If we can get this to a point where it is more or less complete (for the area) before the next big freeze happens, there could be some good PR for OSM in the local area if someone were to issue a press release? Jeni Christoph Böhme wrote: Hi all, I created a map overlay showing the gritting routes (there are not many yet!) in Birmingham: http://mappa-mercia.org/bham-gritting/ The overlay works only from zoom layer 10-16. It is also not automatically updated. So, please drop me an email when you added new routes [1] and want them to appear on the map. Cheers, Christoph [1] Andy put a list of all routes up on the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/BirminghamGrittingPriority ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham
Brian Prangle wrote: Sent: 14 January 2010 6:06 PM To: Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Gritting routes in Birmingham Looks like Christoph will be doing lots of re-rendering! As a by product I've discovered that lots of the primary/trunk roads which were mapped in the early days don't have names which makes the job interesting! If we make the effort what's the betting that we just have mild weather from now on? I spotted missing names too. Luckily the NaPTAN data helps fix them as most are bus routes too. I'm praying for good weather anyway. I want to get out on the bike! Cheers Andy ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
[Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
Hi all, As threatened I've finished a response to the Ordnance Survey consultation: http://www.systemeD.net/documents/os_consultation.pdf For those without the appetite to read five pages of PDF, the summary is: - Good news generally - Releasing 1:25k and 1:50k rasters is not necessary and may be harmful - Access to aerial imagery should be provided, with no restrictions on tracing - Licence should take account of EU database rights I'd encourage everyone here, whether or not you agree with this, to send your own response to the consultation. You can bet that there will be well-funded people lobbying for the other side. Volunteer projects like OSM have traditionally not been great at having their voices heard in the corridors of power; let's make sure this one doesn't get away. The original consultation is at http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ordnancesurveyconsultation . cheers Richard ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
Richard Fairhurst wrote: Hi all, As threatened I've finished a response to the Ordnance Survey consultation: http://www.systemeD.net/documents/os_consultation.pdf For those without the appetite to read five pages of PDF, the summary is: - Good news generally - Releasing 1:25k and 1:50k rasters is not necessary and may be harmful - Access to aerial imagery should be provided, with no restrictions on tracing - Licence should take account of EU database rights I'd encourage everyone here, whether or not you agree with this, to send your own response to the consultation. You can bet that there will be well-funded people lobbying for the other side. Volunteer projects like OSM have traditionally not been great at having their voices heard in the corridors of power; let's make sure this one doesn't get away. The original consultation is at http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ordnancesurveyconsultation . cheers Richard As usual, Richard, a very enlightening set of points made in response. I must, at some point, get around to reading the consultation documents and forming my own response. Regards, Thomas ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
Richard Fairhurst wrote: Hi all, As threatened I've finished a response to the Ordnance Survey consultation: http://www.systemeD.net/documents/os_consultation.pdf For those without the appetite to read five pages of PDF, the summary is: - Good news generally - Releasing 1:25k and 1:50k rasters is not necessary and may be harmful I've had a quick look through your document in the limited time I've got. The availability of raster cartography is not a barrier to innovation. Could you expand on what you mean by that? Do you mean the availability now, or after the consultation? Not sure what you mean by innovation. To me the legal _use_ is the more important element. the strongly-coloured, dense cartography of the 1:25k and 1:50k products is entirely unsuitable for superimposing information. Within OSM I'm using the excellently scanned OoC 1:25k by Andy R. with no problems. In the wider issue of mash-ups, faded backgrounds could be, is being ,used to reduce any perceived obscurant. Free release of the raster products would also harm public perceptions of Ordnance Survey. The perception of OS is that they're data hoarders (which the tax payer payed for) in the belief that 'knowledge is power' Disassociating the cartography from the company, as free release implies, would reduce the value of this good will. But it's not. OS will continue to update maintain the database. What goodwill is there - it's a monetary transaction (twice!). Though custom cartography is the right answer for many applications, it will find it difficult to compete with the free, universally-recognised cartography of the OS. Are you saying you want to prevent these releases to protect the likes of OSM? Competition leads to improved services through innovation. By thoughts will be sent to OS shortly... Regards Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
Free release of the raster products would also harm public perceptions of Ordnance Survey. The perception of OS is that they're data hoarders (which the tax payer payed for) in the belief that 'knowledge is power' Umm, no. The public perception of the OS is that they make pretty maps of the country side so that you can tell where you are when you go walking. Dave ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
Dave Stubbs wrote: Free release of the raster products would also harm public perceptions of Ordnance Survey. The perception of OS is that they're data hoarders (which the tax payer payed for) in the belief that 'knowledge is power' Umm, no. The public perception You're right for the vast majority, although a minority of us do. of the OS is that they make pretty maps of the country side so that you can tell where you are when you go walking. Which is a reason why I'm surprised Richard F. has taken this standpoint. With the release of 1:25k data, websites become free, of a charge /or advertising, printed maps become much cheaper (depending on which license it's released under after the consultation). What's not to like! Cheers Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
Dave F. wrote: I've had a quick look through your document in the limited time I've got. The availability of raster cartography is not a barrier to innovation. Could you expand on what you mean by that? Do you mean the availability now, or after the consultation? Availability now. People are not being stopped from doing innovative, creative things by a lack of a freely-available raster background for web work (the cited reason for releasing 1:25k and 1:50k raster). Raster backgrounds are already widely available through webmap APIs. If you want to produce a good mashup website, you can; and people do. Releasing 1:25k and 1:50k raster maps _would_ save publishing companies, like the one I work for, quite a bit of money for the maps we already license. We could also print off a bunch of copies of maps in popular areas (say, Snowdonia and the Lakes), undercutting the OS by £3 because we don't have an obligation to publish in unprofitable areas. But saving my employer money is not one of the drivers for this consultation, and neither should it be. We charge for our magazine, and if maps are a selling point for it (which they are), then I don't see why we shouldn't have to pay for any OS content we use, just as we'd pay any other contributor. The objective should be to release enough data that people can produce innovative products, while preserving enough of an income stream for the Ordnance Survey so that it can still afford - in a climate of reduced public-sector spending - to survey the country accurately and efficiently. In the extreme case, we could ask OS to release absolutely everything for free; but that entails a ~£100m pa Government commitment, much of which would effectively be a subsidy to companies like ours who could, and do, pay for data and are happy doing so. That won't fly in the current financial climate, and nor should it. IMHO. :) the strongly-coloured, dense cartography of the 1:25k and 1:50k products is entirely unsuitable for superimposing information. Within OSM I'm using the excellently scanned OoC 1:25k by Andy R. with no problems. In the wider issue of mash-ups, faded backgrounds could be, is being ,used to reduce any perceived obscurant. Well, maybe. The cartographer in me says that the colours are chosen for a reason and that it's better to design a new cartography than dim out an existing one. CloudMade's Pale Dawn style, produced by Stamen, is a really good example of how it should be done - a simple, but effective cartography expressly designed for this purpose. Free release of the raster products would also harm public perceptions of Ordnance Survey. The perception of OS is that they're data hoarders (which the tax payer payed for) in the belief that 'knowledge is power' No, I don't think so. That's the perception of the 20 OSMers and the 30 people who've been following the Guardian's Free Our Data campaign - well, a few more than that, but you know what I mean. IMX the perception of the OS among the general public is very favourable. OS has a reputation for quality. Most people don't understand that OS does data, they just know of the paper maps - which they like. Every time there's a story on the news about over-trusting numpties driving off a cliff because my satnav told me too, someone always pipes up in the comments section with tsk, should have used an OS map. If you can buy the same map from another company, with the OS name relegated to a tiny attribution on the legend, then that will slowly erode the goodwill associated with the OS. Public sector accounting practice is very bad at recognising goodwill, but it certainly exists. Though custom cartography is the right answer for many applications, it will ?nd it dif?cult to compete with the free, universally-recognised cartography of the OS. Are you saying you want to prevent these releases to protect the likes of OSM? Competition leads to improved services through innovation. FWIW: I don't believe that's a universal rule. But your politics are probably different from mine! I wouldn't just say to protect the likes of OSM. Rather, to encourage people to create new and innovative maps. If the 1:25k and 1:50k are freely available, there will be less of an incentive for people to produce innovative maps from the source data. By thoughts will be sent to OS shortly... Good good. The more responses the merrier, and it would be excellent if others were to publish their responses too. (Though you probably want to send it to DCLG as they're doing the consultation. ;) ) cheers Richard ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Place names for housing estates
I've been following the wiki guidance to use place=locality for housing estates, which others seem to have used around my area. The only problem is that they render on quite low zoom levels, obscuring road names when they're not all that useful. For example: http://osm.org/go/euu...@d- http://osm.org/go/euuvXSWu- I can see that a really large housing estate might be useful to mark at that level, so I'm unsure as to whether we need a simple change to the Mapnik stylesheet (so they only show up from, say, level 16) or two different tags (one for small estates nestled away, another for the really large sprawling estates that are like mini villages). What do others think, and do? Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Place names for housing estates
Tom asked: What do others think, and do? I've used both place=locality and landuse=residential/name=whatever in Wolverhampton recently. The advantage of drawing out the landuse area and using the name tag is that the name doesn't render until you've zoomed in close enough for the label to fit within that area (zooming in on one of your examples, see the Guinness Trust Estate here, though I don't think you need area=yes on a landuse area): http://osm.org/go/euuvVY2ns- If necessary the label will also wrap to multiple lines to fit within the area which isn't the case with the place=locality nodes. The current rendering works quite well in my opinion for Wolverhampton: http://osm.org/go/eux7kkx8- In the above example, Fordhouses, Oxley, Pendeford, The Dovecotes and Rakegate Estate have been done using landuse=residential areas and Aldersley and Claregate have been done using place=locality nodes. Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Though custom cartography is the right answer for many applications, it will find it difficult to compete with the free, universally-recognised cartography of the OS. Are you saying you want to prevent these releases to protect the likes of OSM? Competition leads to improved services through innovation. Ah, but you need to consider this not simply as competition, but as state-funded destruction of a competitive market. Tax-payers money would be being ploughed into producing raster maps, which are then given away well below production cost in order to destroy the businesses of other companies and individuals. Anyone trying to compete would be up against the government who aren't trying to cover their costs - pretty hard to compete with, and not really a level playing field. I'd like to see people concentrating on the freedom of the data - especially things like electoral boundaries - and I'd like to see the Ordnance Survey consider ceasing producing finished maps in order to open up that whole area to fair competition and innovation. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Place names for housing estates
2010/1/14 Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk What do others think, and do? I've used both place=locality and landuse=residential/name=whatever in Wolverhampton recently. The advantage of drawing out the landuse area and using the name tag is that the name doesn't render until you've zoomed in close enough for the label to fit within that area I thought about that, but it gets pretty fiddly when you have lots of small estates knocking around in the middle of larger residential areas. On a lazier note, it's also sometimes hard to determine exactly where the boundaries of an estate are! Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
Andy Allan wrote: On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Though custom cartography is the right answer for many applications, it will find it difficult to compete with the free, universally-recognised cartography of the OS. Are you saying you want to prevent these releases to protect the likes of OSM? Competition leads to improved services through innovation. Ah, but you need to consider this not simply as competition, but as state-funded destruction of a competitive market. Tax-payers money would be being ploughed into producing raster maps, which are then given away well below production cost in order to destroy the businesses of other companies and individuals. Andy, The taxpayers have already paid for it, many times over. I resent having to pay £7.50 for a map I've already financed to construct. As I've paid for it, I think it should be given to me free of charge. If it was a market (I see it a state owned monopoly) it was certainly not on a level playing field due to the state funding of an army division. Releasing state owned data to the public should level it out a bit, but probably not completely. Anyone trying to compete would be up against the government who aren't trying to cover their costs - pretty hard to compete with, and not really a level playing field. First you say it's a competitive market, then you say it's not. I'd like to see people concentrating on the freedom of the data - especially things like electoral boundaries Well, 1. Isn't that what it's been told to do? 2. Won't that be a state-funded destruction of a competitive market.? - and I'd like to see the Ordnance Survey consider ceasing producing finished maps in order to open up that whole area to fair competition and innovation. How would it be fair? They would still have to license the data from one source - the OS as already occurs with the vast majority of other maps (A-Z etc) sat-navs. If the rasters are traceable then the data can be used in competition, It'll just take longer than if the raw data was available. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
On 14/01/2010 18:27, Dave F. wrote: Andy, The taxpayers have already paid for it, many times over. I resent having to pay £7.50 for a map I've already financed to construct. As I've paid for it, I think it should be given to me free of charge. For a paper map, I think not. You've helped pay for the data collection and technology, but not for the printing and paper etc for your particular map. As the printing is to a particularly high standard, and in 6 colour, I'm sure that is a very substantial part of the cost (and of course, probably half the selling price is from the retailer's markup anyway). David ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey response
David Earl wrote: On 14/01/2010 18:27, Dave F. wrote: Andy, The taxpayers have already paid for it, many times over. I resent having to pay £7.50 for a map I've already financed to construct. As I've paid for it, I think it should be given to me free of charge. For a paper map, I think not. You've helped pay for the data collection and technology, but not for the printing and paper etc for your particular map. As the printing is to a particularly high standard, and in 6 colour, I'm sure that is a very substantial part of the cost (and of course, probably half the selling price is from the retailer's markup anyway). Yes, in a previous post, I did intimate that it a printed copy would cost, but be cheaper. However I fully disagree with you on the print quality, especially the 1:25k. Cheaper paper, thickness of lines (footpaths, contours) etc. Also I personally think they've been putting too much info, such as the blue 'touristy' symbols which often block information under. The 7th series was much easier to read. Cheers Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Place names for housing estates
Tom Chance wrote: 2010/1/14 Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk mailto:e...@loach.me.uk What do others think, and do? I've used both place=locality and landuse=residential/name=whatever in Wolverhampton recently. The advantage of drawing out the landuse area and using the name tag is that the name doesn't render until you've zoomed in close enough for the label to fit within that area I thought about that, but it gets pretty fiddly when you have lots of small estates knocking around in the middle of larger residential areas. On a lazier note, it's also sometimes hard to determine exactly where the boundaries of an estate are! Indeed. Also if they're not a nice 'circular' shape the name tag can often fall outside the polygon. Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
