Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[phil]

You have missed a few, not all have is_in _country tag. so have not shown uo in 
your query.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Tue Aug 05 2014 19:38:54 GMT+0100 (BST), Brian Prangle wrote:
> Pavlo
> 
> If your ukrainian naming convention will be of use to your fellow
> ukrainians (e.g encouraging them to learn about our cities or visit them)
> then please go ahead and good luck! This can only be a good thing in my
> opinion. Having an extra language tag on my home city doesn't matter to me
> - I won't  understand it so I won't add to the debate - only Ukrainainans
> really need worry about spelling and naming - it's their language after
> all. Good luck and thanks for being polite and raising the issue in a
> debate with local mappers
> 
> Regards
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> On 5 August 2014 15:39, Pavlo Dudka  wrote:
> 
> > I am not familiar with city debating. I assume you just set place=city for
> > those that have official city status.
> >
> > No, St Davids and Bangor are not really known, but one can find
> > information about them in ukrainian.
> > St Davids mentioned as "Сент-Дейвідс" is famous by its monastery and
> > cathedral.
> > Bangor mentioned as "Бангор" is famous by its university. There are also
> > mentioning of football team.
> >  Milton Keynes mentioned as "Мілтон-Кінз"(sometimes "Мілтон Кейнс"), e.g.
> > here http://fakty.ictv.ua/ua/index/read-news/id/1492829 (translation of
> > http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/milton-keynes-introducing-driverless-public-transport-pods-by-2017-8925119.html
> > )
> > Shrewsbury mentioned as "Шрусбері". Some agency offers studying english
> > there:
> > http://www.vyvchennya-movy.com.ua/vyvchennya-movy/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%96%D1%8F/%D0%A8%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%96/
> >
> > Wikipedia has ukrainian articles about all mentioned cities.
> >
> > 2014-08-05 16:28 GMT+03:00 :
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >
> >
>

-- 
Sent from my Jolla
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Brian Prangle]

Pavlo

If your ukrainian naming convention will be of use to your fellow
ukrainians (e.g encouraging them to learn about our cities or visit them)
then please go ahead and good luck! This can only be a good thing in my
opinion. Having an extra language tag on my home city doesn't matter to me
- I won't  understand it so I won't add to the debate - only Ukrainainans
really need worry about spelling and naming - it's their language after
all. Good luck and thanks for being polite and raising the issue in a
debate with local mappers

Regards

Brian


On 5 August 2014 15:39, Pavlo Dudka  wrote:

> I am not familiar with city debating. I assume you just set place=city for
> those that have official city status.
>
> No, St Davids and Bangor are not really known, but one can find
> information about them in ukrainian.
> St Davids mentioned as "Сент-Дейвідс" is famous by its monastery and
> cathedral.
> Bangor mentioned as "Бангор" is famous by its university. There are also
> mentioning of football team.
>  Milton Keynes mentioned as "Мілтон-Кінз"(sometimes "Мілтон Кейнс"), e.g.
> here http://fakty.ictv.ua/ua/index/read-news/id/1492829 (translation of
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/milton-keynes-introducing-driverless-public-transport-pods-by-2017-8925119.html
> )
> Shrewsbury mentioned as "Шрусбері". Some agency offers studying english
> there:
> http://www.vyvchennya-movy.com.ua/vyvchennya-movy/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%96%D1%8F/%D0%A8%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%96/
>
> Wikipedia has ukrainian articles about all mentioned cities.
>
> 2014-08-05 16:28 GMT+03:00 :
>
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Richard Mann]

City is a formal designation in the UK (a charter granted by the Queen).
You might want to include place=town where population>100,000.
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

I am not familiar with city debating. I assume you just set place=city for
those that have official city status.

No, St Davids and Bangor are not really known, but one can find information
about them in ukrainian.
St Davids mentioned as "Сент-Дейвідс" is famous by its monastery and
cathedral.
Bangor mentioned as "Бангор" is famous by its university. There are also
mentioning of football team.
 Milton Keynes mentioned as "Мілтон-Кінз"(sometimes "Мілтон Кейнс"), e.g.
here http://fakty.ictv.ua/ua/index/read-news/id/1492829 (translation of
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/milton-keynes-introducing-driverless-public-transport-pods-by-2017-8925119.html
)
Shrewsbury mentioned as "Шрусбері". Some agency offers studying english
there:
http://www.vyvchennya-movy.com.ua/vyvchennya-movy/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%96%D1%8F/%D0%A8%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%96/

Wikipedia has ukrainian articles about all mentioned cities.

2014-08-05 16:28 GMT+03:00 :

>
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road

[Andy Robinson]

Well, if a new track appeared in the landscape I'd still map it. Whether its
legal is not our concern surely. But I agree, it should only be mapped from
a visit, not from the armchair.

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Dave F. [mailto:dave...@madasafish.com] 
Sent: 05 August 2014 14:26
To: Andy Robinson; Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road

I appear to be the main editor in & around Bath.

One reason I haven't added it is because it's illegal (AFAIK. The owners of
the land & local councillor failed to reply to my tweets) & definitely has
no planning permission. They have produced no proof it's been constructed to
DfT/HA standards. Insurance (all parties) is unclear & possibly suspect.
Another reason is I don't map everybody's private drive way.

Also, noting the current edits, it reinforces by belief that OSM editors
should only edit areas they know or at least have visited. Retrieving
information from the Daily Mail website doesn't really work.

Dave F.





On 04/08/2014 12:11, Andy Robinson wrote:
> Have the Bath & Bristol folks picked up on this one?
>
> http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Toll-road-field-gets-drivers-A431-closure
> /story
> -22064579-detail/story.html
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
protection is active.
http://www.avast.com



___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/14 14:28, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
> or world heritage Ironbridge which considering its status is surprising how 
> left alone its been.
Only translation google returns of the ones I scanned - Иронбридге in
Serbian ... every other one gave no translation :)

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road

[Curon Davies]

On 5 August 2014 14:25, Dave F.  wrote:
>
> One reason I haven't added it is because it's illegal (AFAIK. The owners
of the land & local councillor failed to reply to my tweets) & definitely
has no planning permission.

The development isn't illegal, there is no criminal offence (AFAIK), on the
other hand it is unlawful.

> They have produced no proof it's been constructed to DfT/HA standards.

AFAIK roads only need to be constructed to this standard if the road is to
be adopted, there are numerous developments where the road isn't built to
standard, yet they are still mapped on OSM.

> Insurance (all parties) is unclear & possibly suspect. Another reason is
I don't map everybody's private drive way.

Although questionable, the road is opperated by KELSTON TOLL ROAD LIMITED,
and therefore would require public liability insurance.

> Also, noting the current edits, it reinforces by belief that OSM editors
should only edit areas they know or at least have visited. Retrieving
information from the Daily Mail website doesn't really work.

I think this is the only bit I can agree upon, although visiting this
location isn't difficult.

Curon
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[phil]

On Tue Aug 05 2014 08:11:30 GMT+0100 (BST), Pavlo Dudka wrote:
> I will use my own knowledge obtained on school lessons of history,
> geography and English. Large cities are worldwide-known.
> I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially small. I
> will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is determined
> translation english-to-ukrainian for them.
> 
> 
I am interested in your list, especially as we been debating the status of city 
in the UK.

Your list does appear to be a list of most, but not all, British cities.

Are  St Davids, or Bangor  really well known in the Ukrainian? 

Then there are the big towns, such as Milton Keynes, or historic Shrewsbury,  
or world heritage Ironbridge which considering its status is surprising how 
left alone its been.

Phil (trigpoint )

-- 
Sent from my Jolla
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road

[Dave F.]

I appear to be the main editor in & around Bath.

One reason I haven't added it is because it's illegal (AFAIK. The owners 
of the land & local councillor failed to reply to my tweets) & 
definitely has no planning permission. They have produced no proof it's 
been constructed to DfT/HA standards. Insurance (all parties) is unclear 
& possibly suspect. Another reason is I don't map everybody's private 
drive way.


Also, noting the current edits, it reinforces by belief that OSM editors 
should only edit areas they know or at least have visited. Retrieving 
information from the Daily Mail website doesn't really work.


Dave F.





On 04/08/2014 12:11, Andy Robinson wrote:

Have the Bath & Bristol folks picked up on this one?

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Toll-road-field-gets-drivers-A431-closure/story
-22064579-detail/story.html

Cheers
Andy


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb




---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/14 13:05, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
> Why do you call it "poor transliteration"?
> Actually "Бері-Сент-Едмендс" is the result of transcription(ˈbɛrɪ sənt
> ˈɛdməndz) conversion, additionally united by hyphens according to
> general city spelling.
> This city name *is used* in ukrainian texts in wikipedia, airline
> tickets web-sites, as tourist destination, weather forecasts web-sites, etc.

( PLEASE TRIM ! )

Google gives
Бери Сент-Едмундс for Ukrainian and Бери Сент-Эдмундс for Russian but
then a search for the first gets corrupted to the second with both
hyphens by google :(

Being linguistically challenged, is this simply a translation of the
three words anyway? It's difficult to understand where 'translations'
come from some time. Chipping Campden is giving дроблення Campden so
obviously not all words translate?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Ed Loach]

Pavlo wrote:

> I assert that it is "much better" to use a single service, because it 
> is easier to add 100 osm-tags than implement communication with external data 
> sources.
> Nominatim use osm-data, it should not(and I hope will never) use any other 
> data from Wikidata or other projects.

Nominatim already uses data from other sources. See for example
http://www.nominatim.org
which lists the OS Opendata Postcode Centroids (I'm guessing) and two wikipedia 
related datasets to (I guess) help prioritise results for places where names 
match.
https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim/tree/master/data
suggests that it also has extra data for US postcodes from TIGER source.

>From all the messages I've seen in this thread, wikidata seems the best 
>solution.

Ed


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/14 12:23, SomeoneElse wrote:
>> I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially
>> small. I will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is
>> determined translation english-to-ukrainian for them.
> 
> That's rather more problematical.  Under what licence are those web
> articles published?  How do you know that the translation is accurate,
> and not a poor transliteration (like the Bury St Edmunds example)?  How
> does another mapper verify(1) that the name is correct?

This is perhaps my only question as well. The 'on the ground' guide line
provides one element of verifiability, and Welsh and Scottish names may
well appear on the ground, but since we can't easily verify what is only
present in third party material, some link to the source of this third
party information would be helpful? Which is why I would prefer to see
links to third party sources rather than simply cloning that data into
OSM ...

I rely on google to provide translations and I presume that the
Ukrainian translations provided by google are not 'politically correct'?
I'm having a battle with Facebook at the moment over Broadway,
Worcestershire since Facebook will not allow it, claiming it's in
Gloucestershire ... facts don't apparently have any place in Facebook.
This translates to Бродвей, Вустершир in both the Russian and Ukrainian
translation, and then a search for those names gives a substantial
number of hits. But many of those are in the alternate languages, just
as many countries use the 'French' name rather than the English one but
for Broadway that is one of the same ...

Rather than creating hundreds of 'translations' for every name in OSM,
all that is needed is to decide the fallback that you prefer when a
specifically different translation is not available. What I may be
missing here is if google is getting english-to-ukrainian wrong?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Dan S]

2014-08-05 12:23 GMT+01:00 SomeoneElse :
> On 05/08/2014 08:11, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
>>
>> I will use my own knowledge obtained on school lessons of history,
>> geography and English. Large cities are worldwide-known.
>
>
> OK...
>
>
>> I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially small. I
>> will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is determined translation
>> english-to-ukrainian for them.
>
>
> That's rather more problematical.  Under what licence are those web articles
> published?

The licence of the web articles is likely to be irrelevant since Pavlo
proposes to use them as a source of "mere facts" and not copyright
content. This is quite different from sourcing the data from a
structured data source, where "database rights" (different from
copyright) might prevent you from using the info. (I have UK/EU law in
mind specifically, and I'm not a lawyer, but just thought I should
mention it.)

>  How do you know that the translation is accurate, and not a poor
> transliteration (like the Bury St Edmunds example)?  How does another mapper
> verify(1) that the name is correct?

These questions are pertinent :)

Dan


> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
> (1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Why do you call it "poor transliteration"?
Actually "Бері-Сент-Едмендс" is the result of transcription(ˈbɛrɪ sənt
ˈɛdməndz) conversion, additionally united by hyphens according to general
city spelling.
This city name *is used* in ukrainian texts in wikipedia, airline tickets
web-sites, as tourist destination, weather forecasts web-sites, etc.


2014-08-05 14:23 GMT+03:00 SomeoneElse :

> That's rather more problematical.  Under what licence are those web
> articles published?  How do you know that the translation is accurate, and
> not a poor transliteration (like the Bury St Edmunds example)?  How does
> another mapper verify(1) that the name is correct?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
> (1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[SomeoneElse]

On 05/08/2014 08:11, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
I will use my own knowledge obtained on school lessons of history, 
geography and English. Large cities are worldwide-known.


OK...

I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially 
small. I will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is 
determined translation english-to-ukrainian for them.


That's rather more problematical.  Under what licence are those web 
articles published?  How do you know that the translation is accurate, 
and not a poor transliteration (like the Bury St Edmunds example)?  How 
does another mapper verify(1) that the name is correct?


Cheers,

Andy

(1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Richard Mann]

This thread is already too long (though Fred's contribution was a classic).

If people want to add transliterations (or genuinely different names) by
hand, then let them. As long as no-one starts doing mass automated
transliterations, then it doesn't matter very much.

Richard (M)


On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Pavlo Dudka  wrote:

> I assert that it is "much better" to use a single service, because it is
> easier to add 100 osm-tags than implement communication with external data
> sources.
> Nominatim use osm-data, it should not(and I hope will never) use any other
> data from Wikidata or other projects.
> Mapnik allows to process .osm data without using any external data sources.
> There is also nice project "Multilingual Map" created as part of
> Multilingual maps wikipedia project(
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_wikipedia_project).
> Can any of this services be easily modified to use Wikidata? No.
>
> I don't ask anyone to waste his time to modify UK place-nodes. That's how
> I want to spend my own time. But I want to be sure that SomeoneElse_Revert
> or someone else will not revert my changes.
>
> OSM-community tries to avoid any imports. I would like to check all cities
> one by one. I will check its spelling in ukrainian spelling dictionary,
> wikipedia, web articles.
>
> Note, half of UK cities don't have any reference to Wikipedia.
>
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=node[%22is_in:country%22=%22United%20Kingdom%22][%22place%22=%22city%22][%22wikipedia%22!~%22.*%22];out%3B&R
> I can fill them too while adding name:uk=*.
>
>
> 2014-08-05 12:42 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :
>
>> > Not, it is not a job for external services. It is much better to use
>> single
>> > service(OSM) rather than multiple(OSM+Wikidata).
>> > OpenStreetMap supports multiple names - let's use it. If you don't like
>> > someone use some tags - just ignore those tags.
>>
>> You assert that it is "much better"  to sue a dingle service, rather
>> than using linked open data as it is meant to be used; but you present
>> no argument for that assertion.
>>
>> It is ot a case of "not liking" some tags, but of not wanting to
>> squander vouneteer hours repeating work that has already been done -
>> effectively and better - elsewhere.
>>
>> Even were your assertion true, the data is, in many cases, already in
>> Wikidata and freely available for import.
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Dan S]

Hi -

In general I like interlinking - it reduces maintenance burden, for
example (imagine _manually_ making sure wikidata and osm both were
up-to-date with the same data! oof) - and I support the idea that
there's much data which doesn't "need" to be in OSM. However there's
rarely an objective way to decide which data store the data "needs" to
be in. OSM has already evolved a standard practice for
foreign-language placenames, within OSM, so I think it would be
strange to rule out Pavlo's suggestion purely on the basis that the
data "should" be somewhere else.

I think this discussion has been very helpful in clarifying, for
name:*, the "bad" approaches (unfounded transliteration, mindless
importing) versus the "good" approach (annotating foreign names
actually in use). I personally am happy with the approach clarified in
this latest email - manually annotating names that Ukranians actually
use for UK cities.

Pavlo, your original email used an overpass query to specify the
cities you planned to rename. That gave _me_ the impression you
intended to do something a bit less principled, but as long as you're
doing names-in-actual-use rather than names-for-all-cities that's
better!

Best
Dan


2014-08-05 12:00 GMT+01:00 Pavlo Dudka :
> I assert that it is "much better" to use a single service, because it is
> easier to add 100 osm-tags than implement communication with external data
> sources.
> Nominatim use osm-data, it should not(and I hope will never) use any other
> data from Wikidata or other projects.
> Mapnik allows to process .osm data without using any external data sources.
> There is also nice project "Multilingual Map" created as part of
> Multilingual maps wikipedia
> project(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_wikipedia_project).
> Can any of this services be easily modified to use Wikidata? No.
>
> I don't ask anyone to waste his time to modify UK place-nodes. That's how I
> want to spend my own time. But I want to be sure that SomeoneElse_Revert or
> someone else will not revert my changes.
>
> OSM-community tries to avoid any imports. I would like to check all cities
> one by one. I will check its spelling in ukrainian spelling dictionary,
> wikipedia, web articles.
>
> Note, half of UK cities don't have any reference to Wikipedia.
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=node[%22is_in:country%22=%22United%20Kingdom%22][%22place%22=%22city%22][%22wikipedia%22!~%22.*%22];out%3B&R
> I can fill them too while adding name:uk=*.
>
>
> 2014-08-05 12:42 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :
>>
>> > Not, it is not a job for external services. It is much better to use
>> > single
>> > service(OSM) rather than multiple(OSM+Wikidata).
>> > OpenStreetMap supports multiple names - let's use it. If you don't like
>> > someone use some tags - just ignore those tags.
>>
>> You assert that it is "much better"  to sue a dingle service, rather
>> than using linked open data as it is meant to be used; but you present
>> no argument for that assertion.
>>
>> It is ot a case of "not liking" some tags, but of not wanting to
>> squander vouneteer hours repeating work that has already been done -
>> effectively and better - elsewhere.
>>
>> Even were your assertion true, the data is, in many cases, already in
>> Wikidata and freely available for import.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

I assert that it is "much better" to use a single service, because it is
easier to add 100 osm-tags than implement communication with external data
sources.
Nominatim use osm-data, it should not(and I hope will never) use any other
data from Wikidata or other projects.
Mapnik allows to process .osm data without using any external data sources.
There is also nice project "Multilingual Map" created as part of
Multilingual maps wikipedia project(
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_maps_wikipedia_project).
Can any of this services be easily modified to use Wikidata? No.

I don't ask anyone to waste his time to modify UK place-nodes. That's how I
want to spend my own time. But I want to be sure that SomeoneElse_Revert or
someone else will not revert my changes.

OSM-community tries to avoid any imports. I would like to check all cities
one by one. I will check its spelling in ukrainian spelling dictionary,
wikipedia, web articles.

Note, half of UK cities don't have any reference to Wikipedia.
http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=node[%22is_in:country%22=%22United%20Kingdom%22][%22place%22=%22city%22][%22wikipedia%22!~%22.*%22];out%3B&R
I can fill them too while adding name:uk=*.


2014-08-05 12:42 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :

> > Not, it is not a job for external services. It is much better to use
> single
> > service(OSM) rather than multiple(OSM+Wikidata).
> > OpenStreetMap supports multiple names - let's use it. If you don't like
> > someone use some tags - just ignore those tags.
>
> You assert that it is "much better"  to sue a dingle service, rather
> than using linked open data as it is meant to be used; but you present
> no argument for that assertion.
>
> It is ot a case of "not liking" some tags, but of not wanting to
> squander vouneteer hours repeating work that has already been done -
> effectively and better - elsewhere.
>
> Even were your assertion true, the data is, in many cases, already in
> Wikidata and freely available for import.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[SK53]

Thanks for a brilliant example.

Just want to point out that wikipedia is not exempt from this, I had great
difficulty findin a wikipedia:en article about the Haut Fagnes after
reading Cristoph Eckert's fine blog post
, the only
way to find it was to search wikipedia:fr and then click on the English
Language article to find it called "High Fens
". Similarly the Erzgebirge appear
as the Ore Mountains. In both cases this is to apparently avoid some
language sensibilities (which are either overstated or could have easily
been managed with a suitable redirect).

I look forward to seeing:

name:fr=Colonie du peuple de Snot
name:de=Siedlung des Volkes von Rotz

and so on *ad nauseum*


On a more serious note, there is (or perhaps, more accurately, was) a
substantial Ukrainian diaspora in the United Kingdom. For instance there is
a Ukrainian social club  and church
in Nottingham. It would be interesting to find out what the typical usage
is within this diaspora.

Jerry


On 5 August 2014 00:38, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 08/04/2014 08:23 PM, SomeoneElse wrote:
> > To duplicate every name in OSM in every language (or even every
> > alphabet) is clearly ridiculous - and the "but it's only for cities"
> > argument is also not a good one, since what is done for cities will next
> > be done for towns, villages, village shops, everything.
>
> I agree with that and I have often tried to make the point that the
> "name" tag should be reserved for situations in which something really
> has a certain distinct name in the given language.
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/53574164 - if I visit Pont Neuf will
> there be a sign in English explaining to me that this building is called
> "New Bridge"? Will I meet native English speakers who tell me they've
> been to "New Bridge" in Paris (the same way they will say that they have
> been to "Munich")?
>
> No? Then what on earth does the name:en tag do on that object. Of course
> the other name:xx tags aren't any better as a far as I can judge. The
> only reason I haven't yet blown these tags to pieces is that I can
> occasionally use them in rants like this.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Tom Joyce]

That'd be needed to translate to modern English - Birmingham
translated_meaning:en=the farm of Beormund's people


On 5 August 2014 10:34, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On 5 August 2014 00:38, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>
> > if I visit Pont Neuf will there be a sign in English explaining to me
> > that this building is called "New Bridge"?
>
> Your rhetorical question suggests that perhaps there is a need for
> something like a "translated_meaning:" tag.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>



-- 
Yours aye,
   Tom
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Andy Mabbett]

On 5 August 2014 00:38, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> if I visit Pont Neuf will there be a sign in English explaining to me
> that this building is called "New Bridge"?

Your rhetorical question suggests that perhaps there is a need for
something like a "translated_meaning:" tag.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road

[Jason Woollacott]

Interestingly,  Google show it on their map.

Jason (UniEagle)

From: Andy Robinson 
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 4:00 PM
To: 'Richard Symonds' ; 'Andy Mabbett' 
Cc: mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road

Councils are hog tied by over zealous legislation (and in this case clearly 
pissed that they are not getting the excellent publicity). I applaud the 
pragmatism and the balls for those who have put their hands in their pockets 
and found a temporary fix. It doesn’t have planning permission, and insurance 
is questionable but do we care? I like to take a calculated risk now and again.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Richard Symonds [mailto:richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk] 
Sent: 04 August 2014 12:33
To: Andy Mabbett
Cc: Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] A431 toll road

 

More info at 
http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/services/streets-and-highway-maintenance/roadworks/major-transport-schemes/a431-kelston-road-council
 - 


"The Council has no details to confirm the toll road design meets safety 
standards and no evidence that insurances are in place for any member of the 
public who use the private toll road."




Richard Symonds

Wikimedia UK

0207 065 0992

Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, 
Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th 
Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United 
Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The 
Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, 
amongst other projects).

Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over 
Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.

 

On 4 August 2014 12:21, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

On 4 August 2014 12:11, Andy Robinson  wrote:
> Have the Bath & Bristol folks picked up on this one?
>
> http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Toll-road-field-gets-drivers-A431-closure/story
> -22064579-detail/story.html

tag:

   legality=none
   insurance_validity=dubious


--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

 




___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Lester Caine]

On 05/08/14 08:06, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
> It seems that the only place not allowed for adding name:** is UK.
> That's why I started this discussion here. Should we discuss it
> internationaly?
> 
> 2014-08-05 2:37 GMT+03:00 Lester Caine  >:
> 
> On 05/08/14 00:11, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > Andrew Hain wrote:
> >> > It was only put in recently and I personally find it unhelpful.
> Would
> >> > anyone object to removing it?
> > Yes.
> Ditto ... The alternate name tagging is designed where there are
> alternate names in other languages. Simply writing a name in a different
> alphabet is something that the renderer can do if required.
> 
> But this is a discussion for the international list rather than just
> the UK?

Discussing a guide line set up internationally on a local list is what I
was commenting on. Certainly removing one requires discussion. But like
many areas of the data process, personally I'd prefer that the secondary
data was in a secondary database, but then I had thought geonames
provided translations :(

http://translationjournal.net/journal/28names.htm recommends translation
of places where there is not a specific translation then the local
language is retained. I suppose all I am looking at is finding locations
on-line that I recognise, If there is a translation dictionary on-line
for every place name into Chinese and Chinese literature uses those
names, then on paper fine, every 'translation' should be copied to OSM?
It's this overload of material that I feel is wrong when there SHOULD be
some other means of identifying the translation. If there is NOT a
documented translation of a name, then it should not be invented, which
is basically I think what the guide line was trying to avoid? We do not
want to become the 'primary' source of translations, only reflecting
what is ALREADY documented elsewhere.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[David Woolley]

On 05/08/14 08:05, Pavlo Dudka wrote:

No, I don't want to add name:uk for cities or other objects that were
never mentioned it ukrainian texts. This is redundant.


Unfortunately, there are lots of cases where people add detailed data 
that, although possibly not mechanically derivable from other data, 
still doesn't add much to the map.  Recently I've noticed that a snap 
shot of restaurant food safety ratings has been added in a certain area. 
 These will never get maintained and the restaurant may have moved from 
perfect to being closed by the council by the time someone reads them 
(fortunately the one that had been closed by the council wasn't one that 
had a recorded rating!).


(Street names are actually very stable compared with small office 
tenants or food safety ratings, so are relatively harmless except in 
terms of database bloat.)


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Let's check Liverpool http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/21421501
I see set of names on different languages.
Ukrainians call it Ліверпуль. I don't know how this word appeared in
ukrainian language, it just appeared hundreds years ago.
Why should one require discussion to enter name:uk?


2014-08-05 10:29 GMT+03:00 Paul Norman :

> On 8/5/2014 12:06 AM, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
>
>> It seems that the only place not allowed for adding name:** is UK. That's
>> why I started this discussion here. Should we discuss it internationaly?
>>
> There is a general understanding that name:xx is for the name in the
> language xx, not a translation of the name.
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] highway=trunk Roads and Cycle Navigation

[ianmspencer]

From: Bogus Zaba
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎5‎ ‎August‎ ‎2014 ‎05‎:‎40
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org


Only thing to avoid is an automated edit whereby all UK trunk roads 
suddenly have a bicycle=yes tag since there are plenty of stretches 
where this would be quite wrong (both in terms of legal status - road 
has a "no cycling" sign and in terms of bad/unsafe routing).

bogzab






However, in the UK context, I would have thought that an explicit exclusion 
would have already been encoded as in the UK, bicycle=yes has been assumed to 
be the case, so we should already have overrides in place where cyclists and 
pedestrians are excluded.


Which reminds me, I must follow up with a couple of producers of routing maps 
as to how difficult picking up country context is for them.


Ian___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Paul Norman]

On 8/5/2014 12:06 AM, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
It seems that the only place not allowed for adding name:** is UK. 
That's why I started this discussion here. Should we discuss it 
internationaly? 
There is a general understanding that name:xx is for the name in the 
language xx, not a translation of the name.


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[David Woolley]

On 05/08/14 00:37, Lester Caine wrote:

Simply writing a name in a different
alphabet is something that the renderer can do if required.


There is rarely a 1:1 mapping between different alphabets, except within 
a single country, and the mapping depends on both source and destination 
languages - and in fact dialect.  If you are going to do it 
mechanically, you must have detailed transliteration rules between every 
pair of languages that don't share a script.  Just consider the 
different transliterations needed for Paris in French and Paris (Texas?) 
in English.


You could reduce the problem to O(n) rather than O(n**2) by having a 
phonetic transliteration, but note that, as normally used, IPA is an 
approximation, designed to distinguish phonemes within a single 
language, so you would need a more detailed IPA markup than most people 
are used to.


In this particular case, I think there is almost certainly an element of 
Ukrainian nationalism, attempting to expunge all traces of Russian.  If 
you started  transliterating based just on Russian pronunciation of 
Cyrillic, even if you called it a pseudo-language called Cyrillic, it 
would probably never be acceptable to the Ukrainians in the current 
political climate.


Especially with Chinese, there are large numbers of homophones with 
different meanings, and words are often composed from two characters. 
Approximate transliteration requires a lot of knowledge, to avoid 
unintended meanings in the transliteration. Also the script is used with 
widely different spoken languages, so a mechanical transliteration would 
have to choose one of those languages.


I'm not suggesting that it is a good idea to translate every street 
name, although I would note that that will already have been done, 
outside OSM, for all the central London (tourist area) streets, into 
Chinese.


I think place names are so fundamental to any geographical map that 
contains any text at all, that alternative names should be part of the 
core database (although one could have special structures for them.


Any mechanical process needs to be predicated on having phonetic 
transcriptions available (probably two: the one used in the place 
itself, and the one in the country's equivalent of received pronunciation).


English street names largely come from a small vocabulary, which 
strongly overlaps with place names.  If you are afraid of a 
proliferation of ad hoc street name transliterations, maybe the map 
database should contain a list of names used for streets within a 
country.  (In the USA, there is also a lot of re-use of place names 
(Roswell in New Mexico is not the only Roswell).


___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

I will use my own knowledge obtained on school lessons of history,
geography and English. Large cities are worldwide-known.
I will be right saying that I can not know all cities, especially small. I
will search ukrainian web articles to see if there is determined
translation english-to-ukrainian for them.


2014-08-04 21:25 GMT+03:00 SomeoneElse :

> On 04/08/2014 16:15, Pavlo Dudka wrote:
>
>> Hi! I would like to add ukrainian names for cities of UK, but found that
>> SomeoneElse_Revert removed some of name:uk-tags in changeset 20757217 with
>> a comment "reverting undiscussed Ukrainian "translations" including ones
>> for which there's nothing on the ground".
>> This is the list of cities I plan to modify:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF
>>
>
> What were you planning to use as the source of Ukrainian city names for
> those places on that list?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

It seems that the only place not allowed for adding name:** is UK. That's
why I started this discussion here. Should we discuss it internationaly?


2014-08-05 2:37 GMT+03:00 Lester Caine :

> On 05/08/14 00:11, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > Andrew Hain wrote:
> >> > It was only put in recently and I personally find it unhelpful. Would
> >> > anyone object to removing it?
> > Yes.
> Ditto ... The alternate name tagging is designed where there are
> alternate names in other languages. Simply writing a name in a different
> alphabet is something that the renderer can do if required.
>
> But this is a discussion for the international list rather than just the
> UK?
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Andy, I agree that Berlin doesn't need hundreds of name:**, but not because
they are similar. Just because 80% will never be used. name:** should be
entered by native speakers, not imported by Kolossos. Bury St Edmunds needs
[name:uk=Бері-Сент-Едмендс]. Just assume Ukrainian person reading ukrainian
article about Bury St Edmunds using Бері-Сент-Едмендс as city name. One
would like to find it in OSM, but Nominatim can not find it! It is not easy
to translate "Бері-Сент-Едмендс" back to "Bury St Edmunds" if you don't
english names of UK cities.
No, I don't want to add name:uk for cities or other objects that were never
mentioned it ukrainian texts. This is redundant.


2014-08-04 21:23 GMT+03:00 SomeoneElse :

> On 04/08/2014 18:08, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
>> The big problem with transliteration to help pronunciation is where do
>> you stop, Berlin for example has 194 name tags for different languages, 84
>> of which just say Berlin.
>>
>
> Which gets straight to the nub of the problem. Berlin does _not_ need a
> name:en of "Berlin" because it does _not_ have an English name that's
> different to its actual name.
>
> Similarly, Bury St Edmunds(1) doesn't need a name:uk of Бері-Сент-Едмендс
> as whichever local mapper I checked with in #osm-gb(2) said that it doesn't
> have a distinct, verifiable, Ukrainian name (unlike for example Moscow (3)
> and London (4), which have several distinct names). "Бері-Сент-Едмендс" is
> a simple transliteration of the sound of the words "Bury St Edmunds" into
> Ukrainian (poorly, as it turns out, because the pronunciation of the second
> "u" is rendered as an "e" in the same way as the first (correctly) is).
>
> To duplicate every name in OSM in every language (or even every alphabet)
> is clearly ridiculous - and the "but it's only for cities" argument is also
> not a good one, since what is done for cities will next be done for towns,
> villages, village shops, everything.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> (1) http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/21409982/history
> (2) https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/20757217
> (3) http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2555133
> (4) http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/65606
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] City names translation

[Pavlo Dudka]

Not, it is not a job for external services. It is much better to use single
service(OSM) rather than multiple(OSM+Wikidata).
OpenStreetMap supports multiple names - let's use it. If you don't like
someone use some tags - just ignore those tags.


2014-08-04 20:24 GMT+03:00 Andy Mabbett :

> On 4 August 2014 17:11, David Woolley  wrote:
>
> >> This is the list of cities I plan to modify:
> >> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/4rF
> >
> > Those look like the sort of major cities and towns that
> > would have foreign language names.
>
> This sounds like (yet another) job for Wikidata.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb