Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
I'm glad you say you agree Lester, but to me, the words "common default name" imply some level of consensus, not the subjective opinion of an individual mapper. I see issues here which we should not conflate; on the contrary, we should address them in order, as they form a hierarchy. Firstly, should there be (as I contend) some objective consensus-based normalised value for "names" Secondly, how does the community work out what that value should be Thirdly, (how) do we backfit that value into existing data Fourthly, (how) do we encourage the use consensus value in preference to what "Joe Mapper" might think As compliance with "rule 4" cannot be ensured, we can apply "rule 3" periodically to tidy things up. There are people who object to "rule 1", "rule 2" seems to be a war of attrition. The arguments about "rule 3" are polarised into "camps", and "rule 4" is at the whim of tool developers who decide what "assistance" to offer based on their personal preferences and the feelings of the day. We live in a free society, and OSM is possibly more free than most. But even in a free society, there need to be rules and limits to safeguard the good of the society as a whole. Let us not act out a certain novel which comes to mind, but have a shared idea of what "data quality" means and find the right balance of measures to work together towards that. C. On 2014-11-04 23:54, Lester Caine wrote: > On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: > >> Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as >> the wiki puts it, the "common default name." > > Totally Agree Colin ... > The name tag should not be subjected to a 'mechanical edit' to change > what has been entered by a local mapper, so please vote against this > proposal on principle. > > The 'discussion' on Brantano Footwear is a particular element of that > edit which would change what IS on the local signs, "because the second > line is simple is description of the shop", which is what I'm objecting to. > > No problem with the other 'documentary' tags, it's just the name tag > which is contentious here. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: > Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, > or, as the wiki puts it, the "common default name." Totally Agree Colin ... The name tag should not be subjected to a 'mechanical edit' to change what has been entered by a local mapper, so please vote against this proposal on principle. The 'discussion' on Brantano Footwear is a particular element of that edit which would change what IS on the local signs, "because the second line is simple is description of the shop", which is what I'm objecting to. No problem with the other 'documentary' tags, it's just the name tag which is contentious here. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 22:17, Chris Hill wrote: > I would write what it says on the sign on the shop. That's why I tag ASDA as > ASDA, that's what it says on the sign. I don't look at their website, their > advertising or their letter heads. I use ground truth. I'm not a trademark > junkie, I'm a mapper who tries to get it right. Would you also write name=PRIMARK, name=LLOYDS BANK, name=PIZZA EXPRESS, and name=wagamama? -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
What is "right" is a subjective judgement, that's the whole discussion, surely? And the "ground truth" paradigm isn't absolute, otherwise we would have name=HIGH ST. as has been mentioned before. If two parties have different answers yet both insist they are right, you should look again at the question. They may both be right, but from two different points of view. C. On 2014-11-04 23:17, Chris Hill wrote: > On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: > >> Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as >> the wiki puts it, the "common default name." There are other tags for >> enthousiasts to store official names, legal names, alternate names, brands, >> operators etc which, in a certain frame of reference, can also be "correct" >> in their own way. What goes in the basic "name" tag should be what "most >> people" would call it, and, implicitly, should be written how "most people" >> would write it. IMHO "most people" would write Spar, Asda, Brantano and only >> trademark junkies would write ASDA for example (discounting people who would >> write any answer in all capitals anyway). C. > > I would write what it says on the sign on the shop. That's why I tag ASDA as > ASDA, that's what it says on the sign. I don't look at their website, their > advertising or their letter heads. I use ground truth. I'm not a trademark > junkie, I'm a mapper who tries to get it right. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 22:04, Colin Smale wrote: Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as the wiki puts it, the "common default name." There are other tags for enthousiasts to store official names, legal names, alternate names, brands, operators etc which, in a certain frame of reference, can also be "correct" in their own way. What goes in the basic "name" tag should be what "most people" would call it, and, implicitly, should be written how "most people" would write it. IMHO "most people" would write Spar, Asda, Brantano and only trademark junkies would write ASDA for example (discounting people who would write any answer in all capitals anyway). C. I would write what it says on the sign on the shop. That's why I tag ASDA as ASDA, that's what it says on the sign. I don't look at their website, their advertising or their letter heads. I use ground truth. I'm not a trademark junkie, I'm a mapper who tries to get it right. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
Hang on a minute... the name tag should contain the most common name, or, as the wiki puts it, the "common default name." There are other tags for enthousiasts to store official names, legal names, alternate names, brands, operators etc which, in a certain frame of reference, can also be "correct" in their own way. What goes in the basic "name" tag should be what "most people" would call it, and, implicitly, should be written how "most people" would write it. IMHO "most people" would write Spar, Asda, Brantano and only trademark junkies would write ASDA for example (discounting people who would write any answer in all capitals anyway). C. On 2014-11-04 22:49, Lester Caine wrote: > On 04/11/14 20:01, Andy Street wrote: > The 'name' is 'Brantano Footwear' unless there IS something different on the > signage, and the 'operator' is 'Brantano (UK) Ltd'. Trade marks appear to use "Brantano" rather than "Brantano Footwear": http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmtext.htm [1] >> I'd avoid using 'brand' since even the web site makes a big thing of the >> brands that they supply, and Brantano is just one of many brands. brand="Brantano" (or "Brantano Footwear") is perfectly correct. You are confusing the branding of the store with the branding of the products it sells. The original company name was Brantano Footwear when the first shops were set up, and these have never been 'rebranded' back to just Brantano, however there is a concerted use of Brantano as the brand name for shoes produced by Brantano Footwear and sold in Brantano Footwear shops. But I'm sure an email to their press office would get a definitive statement on that ... Links: -- [1] http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmtext.htm ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 20:01, Andy Street wrote: >> The 'name' is 'Brantano Footwear' unless there IS something different >> > on the signage, and the 'operator' is 'Brantano (UK) Ltd'. > Trade marks appear to use "Brantano" rather than "Brantano > Footwear": > > http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmtext.htm > >> > I'd avoid using 'brand' since even the web site makes a big thing of >> > the brands that they supply, and Brantano is just one of many brands. > brand="Brantano" (or "Brantano Footwear") is perfectly correct. You are > confusing the branding of the store with the branding of the products > it sells. The original company name was Brantano Footwear when the first shops were set up, and these have never been 'rebranded' back to just Brantano, however there is a concerted use of Brantano as the brand name for shoes produced by Brantano Footwear and sold in Brantano Footwear shops. But I'm sure an email to their press office would get a definitive statement on that ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 12:55, Philip Barnes wrote: ALDI, LIDL, ASDA and SPAR are all abbreviations of their full names, in the same way as NATO, AIDS, BBC, OSM or GNU are. BBC is an initialism, so should be in uppercase. The rest of treated as acronyms. To the extent that they are trademarks, they may need initial capitals to distinguish them from ordinary words with the same spelling. Other than that there don't seem to be any clear rules for capitalising acronyms. I presume you don't use LASER pointers or get caught by RADAR (RaDAR) speed traps, although you also wouldn't have a radar key. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 17:19, Matthijs Melissen wrote: So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of the name, rather than a description of the products they sell? The 7,510 Google hits for '+site:brantano.co.uk "brantano footwear"', for as start, including their T&Cs page. The other thing is that it is clearly part of the complete logo. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:49:44 + Lester Caine wrote: > The 'name' is 'Brantano Footwear' unless there IS something different > on the signage, and the 'operator' is 'Brantano (UK) Ltd'. Trade marks appear to use "Brantano" rather than "Brantano Footwear": http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmtext.htm > I'd avoid using 'brand' since even the web site makes a big thing of > the brands that they supply, and Brantano is just one of many brands. brand="Brantano" (or "Brantano Footwear") is perfectly correct. You are confusing the branding of the store with the branding of the products it sells. -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 18:55, Philip Barnes wrote: > According to wikipedia SPAR is an acronym of Door Eendrachtig > Samenwerken Profiteren Allen Regelmatig, although the DE has been > dropped. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spar_(retailer)#Etymology Yes, but according to the newspaper article I linked, the name and icon were chosen first, and the slogan was only chosen later to match the name. Which would make sense, because 'Door Eendrachtig Samenwerken Profiteren Allen Regelmatig' sounds rather artificial in Dutch. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On Tue, 2014-11-04 at 17:29 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > On 4 November 2014 12:55, Philip Barnes wrote: > > ALDI, LIDL, ASDA and SPAR are all abbreviations of their full names, in > > the same way as NATO, AIDS, BBC, OSM or GNU are. > > Whether Spar is an abbreviation is doubtful. Spar is Dutch for spruce > (a species of tree), hence the logo. According to this article [1] (in > Dutch), the name originally only referred to the tree, and only later > a slogan was made up of which the initials corresponded to the letters > in 'De Spar'. According to wikipedia SPAR is an acronym of Door Eendrachtig Samenwerken Profiteren Allen Regelmatig, although the DE has been dropped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spar_(retailer)#Etymology Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 04/11/14 17:19, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > On 4 November 2014 10:25, Ed Loach wrote: >>> Are there still objections against "Brantano"? >> >> Yes. It says "Brantano Footwear" as the name on the sign on at least the two >> nearest stores to me. I have no objections to brand or operator being >> Brantano, but not the name field. > > As I said before, shops commonly list the products they sell under the > shop name on a shield. Example: > http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/dennoir/Artistic/290320092891hamersmith.jpg > I suppose you wouldn't tag this shop as 'Sweets & News cold drinks > magazines newspapers sweets bus passes'? > > So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of > the name, rather than a description of the products they sell? OK ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brantano_Footwear This explains where Brantano Footwear came from and also why the Footwear element may be a little woolly in the UK today. It is a registered name http://coalville.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/brantano--footwear--ltd-15742171.html Then you get locations like http://www.yell.com/biz/brantano-footwear-ltd-poole-7216924/ and many other shops are listed with the full name so even they don't know the exact situation :) The 'name' is 'Brantano Footwear' unless there IS something different on the signage, and the 'operator' is 'Brantano (UK) Ltd'. I'd avoid using 'brand' since even the web site makes a big thing of the brands that they supply, and Brantano is just one of many brands. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 12:55, Philip Barnes wrote: > ALDI, LIDL, ASDA and SPAR are all abbreviations of their full names, in > the same way as NATO, AIDS, BBC, OSM or GNU are. Whether Spar is an abbreviation is doubtful. Spar is Dutch for spruce (a species of tree), hence the logo. According to this article [1] (in Dutch), the name originally only referred to the tree, and only later a slogan was made up of which the initials corresponded to the letters in 'De Spar'. > I would prefer to keep things correct although usage in OSM does seem to > have gone heavily away from this. Even the Germans can't decide with > ALDI and LIDL. I think everybody prefers to keep things correct, but I honestly don't know what 'correct' in this context means. What is your idea of correctness? > In the late 70s, early 80s when ADSA arrived as the new kid on the > block, everyone seemed to know it was short for Associated Dairies, but > that has probably long since been forgotten. According to Wikipedia, it actually stands for 'Asquith and Dairies'. In any case, this abbreviation doesn't explain the capitals - given the abbreviation, one would expect AsDa, not ASDA. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 10:25, Ed Loach wrote: >> Are there still objections against "Brantano"? > > Yes. It says "Brantano Footwear" as the name on the sign on at least the two > nearest stores to me. I have no objections to brand or operator being > Brantano, but not the name field. As I said before, shops commonly list the products they sell under the shop name on a shield. Example: http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/dennoir/Artistic/290320092891hamersmith.jpg I suppose you wouldn't tag this shop as 'Sweets & News cold drinks magazines newspapers sweets bus passes'? So the question is - what makes you think that 'Footwear' is part of the name, rather than a description of the products they sell? -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 15:20, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > On reflection, it would be more helpful, and less controversial, if you were > to describe this process as a "poll" rather than a "vote". That's a good suggestion, I think the word 'poll' better expresses what the intention is. I will refer to it as such from now on. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
2014-11-04 15:20 GMT+00:00 Richard Fairhurst : > Matthijs Melissen wrote: >> I therefore think inviting list members to vote in order to make >> the position of the community explicit - in addition to taking >> comments on the mailing list into account, not as a replacement >> of it - is the safest way to proceed. > > On reflection, it would be more helpful, and less controversial, if you were > to describe this process as a "poll" rather than a "vote". > > A "vote" is traditionally used to move to a binding decision. A "poll" is > seeking to gauge the level of support, often as a piece of supporting > evidence for a wider case. In this case I hope you'll agree the latter is > more appropriate. Nice suggestion. One could even call it a "straw poll" which hopefully makes it even more obvious that it isn't a binding vote? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_poll Best Dan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
Matthijs Melissen wrote: > I therefore think inviting list members to vote in order to make > the position of the community explicit - in addition to taking > comments on the mailing list into account, not as a replacement > of it - is the safest way to proceed. On reflection, it would be more helpful, and less controversial, if you were to describe this process as a "poll" rather than a "vote". A "vote" is traditionally used to move to a binding decision. A "poll" is seeking to gauge the level of support, often as a piece of supporting evidence for a wider case. In this case I hope you'll agree the latter is more appropriate. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Voting-mechanical-edit-UK-shop-names-tp5822571p5823063.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
> In the late 70s, early 80s when ADSA arrived as the new kid on the > block, everyone seemed to know it was short for Associated Dairies, > but > that has probably long since been forgotten. Regarding ASDA, I was following one of their delivery vans yesterday and noticed all occurrences of their name were in capitals, including in www.ASDA.com. Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
On Mon, 2014-11-03 at 23:35 +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > On 2 November 2014 16:11, Andy Street wrote: > > On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 13:24:46 + > > Matthijs Melissen wrote: > > >> - 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano > > > Whilst company names do not necessarily reflect trading names I'd be > > inclined to take "Brantano (UK) Limited" as further evidence for > > "Brantano" over "Brantano Footwear". > > Are there still objections against "Brantano"? > > >> - Capitalization of Aldi, Lidl, Spar, Asda > > > What do people think about using upper case for names that are > > pronounced as a series of letters and mixed case for names that are > > pronounced as a word? Whilst not ideal (until the widespread adoption > > of the talking shop sign!) this would give us a rule of thumb that > > should be easy enough to follow in the majority of situations. > > I'm not sure if this would be a good general rule, it would look > strange in abbreviations like NATO, AIDS, or GNU (not sure if all of > them occur in topographic names). > > Maybe we could follow the spelling the organization uses themselves in > running text? That would give us Lidl, Aldi, and Asda, but SPAR. > Alternatively, we could follow the spelling other media use to refer > to those shops (which is the rule Wikipedia uses), which would > probably give us Lidl, Aldi, Asda, and Spar. The latter also > corresponds with current use. What do you think? ALDI, LIDL, ASDA and SPAR are all abbreviations of their full names, in the same way as NATO, AIDS, BBC, OSM or GNU are. I would prefer to keep things correct although usage in OSM does seem to have gone heavily away from this. Even the Germans can't decide with ALDI and LIDL. In the late 70s, early 80s when ADSA arrived as the new kid on the block, everyone seemed to know it was short for Associated Dairies, but that has probably long since been forgotten. This is probably not really controversial and I should go along with the majority. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
> Are there still objections against "Brantano"? Yes. It says "Brantano Footwear" as the name on the sign on at least the two nearest stores to me. I have no objections to brand or operator being Brantano, but not the name field. Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC-2 mechanical edit: UK shop names
2014-11-03 23:35 GMT+00:00 Matthijs Melissen : > On 2 November 2014 16:11, Andy Street wrote: >> On Sun, 2 Nov 2014 13:24:46 + >> Matthijs Melissen wrote: > >>> - 'Brantano Footwear' versus Brantano > >> Whilst company names do not necessarily reflect trading names I'd be >> inclined to take "Brantano (UK) Limited" as further evidence for >> "Brantano" over "Brantano Footwear". > > Are there still objections against "Brantano"? > >>> - Capitalization of Aldi, Lidl, Spar, Asda > >> What do people think about using upper case for names that are >> pronounced as a series of letters and mixed case for names that are >> pronounced as a word? Whilst not ideal (until the widespread adoption >> of the talking shop sign!) this would give us a rule of thumb that >> should be easy enough to follow in the majority of situations. > > I'm not sure if this would be a good general rule, it would look > strange in abbreviations like NATO, AIDS, or GNU (not sure if all of > them occur in topographic names). > > Maybe we could follow the spelling the organization uses themselves in > running text? That would give us Lidl, Aldi, and Asda, but SPAR. > Alternatively, we could follow the spelling other media use to refer > to those shops (which is the rule Wikipedia uses), which would > probably give us Lidl, Aldi, Asda, and Spar. The latter also > corresponds with current use. What do you think? I think either the running-text or the say-it-as-a-word heuristics are roughly OK, but more importantly, they're so heuristic that what is the point, given that the companies often don't make up their minds entirely, and capitalisation is unlikely to be a big deal? There are many of your suggested edits that I think will be useful, but actually the decision whether to use "ASDA" or "Asda" is not very likely to have any downstream impact on anyone, because even the most simple-minded of data consumers (such as me ;) can probably do case-insensitive search... It might surprise everyone for me to turn against those edits! But the capitalisation differences are so minor, I'd much rather we all agree to let Matthijs fix the important things like "Ladbrooks" :) Dan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
