Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[MarkS]

It is difficult to chase tainted junctions though.

--
Andrew



I've knocked something together as a trial for tainted junctions.  My 
scripts extract the nodes at the start and end of a given set of ways 
and pass them through quick history to check the licence state.


So far I've done motorways (and just motorways not links) that gives a 
total of 19 junction nodes due to be removed (where junction=one way 
meets another, not an actual motorway junction).  Thus I'd expect 19 
gaps in the UK motorway system come 1 April. This is quite good (and is 
probably a result that all the ways having been remapped).


I'm not sure how far I can extend this though.  The UK motorway system 
has around 10,000 unique nodes at the start/end of ways.  Given that I 
have to ask quick history to process all these nodes that number is 
quite high. It might be possible to do the same process for Trunk Roads 
(and their links) but I suspect that for ordinary A-Roads the list of 
start/end nodes is likely to be too long to to deal with.  Note: It is 
processing the intial list that is the problem, once I've process that 
list I only need to ask about problem nodes the next time.


More info and a list of the problem nodes are on the wiki: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:MarkS/Remapping




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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[MarkS]

Does your CSV list take into account ways tagged with ODbL=clean? If
not (and assuming the rebuild process will honour such tagging) would
it be possible for such objects to be excluded from your list?

Thanks,

Robert.



Good spot.

No my list didn't allow for odbl=clean.   However, the original roads 
list did come from Simon Poole's badmap database so it is likely that 
did allow for odbl=clean and it is only subsequent additions of this tag 
that weren't picked up.


I've updated the script and put the latest list on the wiki 
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:MarkS/Remapping).


Adding odbl=clean removed 173 objects from the list.

In total I now make it 1337 that will be lost.   This is excellent progress.

Mark_S


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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Ed Loach]

Robert asked:

> Does your CSV list take into account ways tagged with ODbL=clean?

Checking taginfo and then double checking by asking on #irc, but as
tags are case sensitive a quick reminder that it is
odbl=clean 
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=odbl

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Robert Whittaker (OSM)]

On 8 March 2012 15:19, MarkS  wrote:
> I've done an update and put some info on a wiki page:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:MarkS/Remapping
>
> The page has the latest counts (down to 1889 currently expected to be
> deleted).  It also has a link to a CSV file with the current list in it.

Does your CSV list take into account ways tagged with ODbL=clean? If
not (and assuming the rebuild process will honour such tagging) would
it be possible for such objects to be excluded from your list?

Thanks,

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Andrew]

MarkS  writes:

> 
> 
> > Do you know
> > if/when that file will be updated as ways are re-mapped?
> >
> 
> I've done an update and put some info on a wiki page: 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:MarkS/Remapping
> 
> I'll update these on an ad-hoc basis until the licence change has occurred.
> 
> Mark_S
> 

To the best of my knowledge, A and B roads in Elmbridge (Esher/Walton on 
Thames/Weybridge) are now completely clean; most of them have been remapped 
over 
the last few weeks. Anything still shown on Badmap in the borough[1] has been 
fixed. It is difficult to chase tainted junctions though. I am now working on 
neighbouring Spelthorne.

[1] http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?lat=51.37402&lon=-0.39068&zoom=13&layers=00B0

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Richard Fairhurst]

MarkS wrote:
> The page has the latest counts (down to 1889 currently expected to 
> be deleted).

And now 1733 by Simon's latest tally. :)

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[MarkS]

Do you know
if/when that file will be updated as ways are re-mapped?




I've done an update and put some info on a wiki page: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:MarkS/Remapping


The page has the latest counts (down to 1889 currently expected to be 
deleted).  It also has a link to a CSV file with the current list in it.



I've also done something similar for London Tube Stations. This is also 
on the page and shows 50 expected to be deleted and another 50 with some 
form of data loss (ie. reversion to an earlier state).



I'll update these on an ad-hoc basis until the licence change has occurred.


Mark_S




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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[MarkS]

On 06/03/2012 14:31, Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:



Excellent -- thanks to both of you for getting this done. Do you know
if/when that file will be updated as ways are re-mapped?




I was playing around tonight with a combination of the Quick History 
Service and Overpass to requery the objects so I could update parts of 
the list for my own reference.


The script passes groups all the ways together and makes a single call 
to overpass then a single call to quick history.  This means I could 
probably get away with doing the whole list (although I'm not confident 
if the APIs should be used in this way).


If nobody raises an objection then I'll give this a go in a few days 
otherwise we can ask Simon.



The good news though is that I believe I've managed to save all the 
motorways on the list.  I've also done a lot of the motorway_link roads, 
although there are a couple of junctions (on the M1 I believe) where it 
looks like the junctions have been remodelled and neither bing or OS 
Street View appear to be up to date.








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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[MarkS]

There are lots of patches of detail in London that are still at risk:
http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=13&lat=51.51807&lon=-0.1225&layers=00B%0D%0A




My worry in Central London is the large number of traffic lights that 
appear when you zoom in.  Presumably these are junctions of two ways 
where the junction node will disppear and the ways will nolonger connect.


Whilst the traffic lights are easy to spot there must be many more 
junctions that don't have lights that will also break. I'm not sure 
these are easy to spot without zooming right in on OSMI.


Mark_S


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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Donald Noble]

Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:
> I think the trunk roads are doable too if enough people help out.

I am going to work my way through the A7* A8* and A9* roads in
Scotland, as I know most of them, and can fill in the blanks with
OSSV, bing or uploaded GPS traces.

I'm assuming that if the end nodes were both created by CT agreeing
members, then it is just a case of redrawing the way along the route,
picking up connecting road nodes along the way. If, perchance, a minor
road junction was added by a non CT agreeing contributor, then that
junction will be lost come 1st April — but it would have been anyway.
However, the main road network should be preserved.

Might take a few nights of armchair mapping, but the weather still isn't great…!

Donald

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Derick Rethans]

On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Tom Chance wrote:

> On 6 March 2012 15:48, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> 
> > (But I've not looked at really densely-mapped areas such as London, and the
> > situation may be more serious there.)
> >
> 
> There are lots of patches of detail in London that are still at risk:
> http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=13&lat=51.51807&lon=-0.1225&layers=00B%0D%0A

I've been making my way through 
http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=14&lat=51.53425&lon=-0.19357&layers=00B0 
and slowly going southwards.

> Also quite a lot of the tube system and various main roads in parts of
> central London and inner West/North. These must be areas where no obsessive
> OSM people live, we've cleaned up our own areas fairly comprehensively.

Tube is next on my list after the stuff from the previous permalink.

cheers,
Derick

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[ael]

On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 07:48:50AM -0800, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> I'd like to think we'll be most of the way there with the primary and
> secondary roads, too. 

There are a few fairly important road/lanes in Cornwall that will be
lost the last time I looked. I expect to be in the area soon, so might
be able to gps survey some of them if traces are missing. Time (and 
petrol - I am cautious about cycling on narrow lanes with high banks)
permitting.

ael

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Tom Chance]

On 6 March 2012 15:48, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> (But I've not looked at really densely-mapped areas such as London, and the
> situation may be more serious there.)
>

There are lots of patches of detail in London that are still at risk:
http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=13&lat=51.51807&lon=-0.1225&layers=00B%0D%0A

Also quite a lot of the tube system and various main roads in parts of
central London and inner West/North. These must be areas where no obsessive
OSM people live, we've cleaned up our own areas fairly comprehensively.

Some special effort on this would be good, what with the Golden Jubilee and
the London 2012 Games on the horizon.

Tom

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Richard Fairhurst]

Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:
> Excellent -- thanks to both of you for getting this done. 

The credit belongs to Simon, not me! I believe that he is willing to
regenerate the list on occasion, but will wait to be contradicted if that's
not the case.

> I think the trunk roads are doable too if enough people help out.

Absolutely. I'm entirely sure we'll have 99.9% trunk road and motorway
coverage by changeover day, and that the 0.1% will be a result of not
spotting things rather than not having enough manpower.

I'd like to think we'll be most of the way there with the primary and
secondary roads, too. IME the main things that are likely to be lost are
housing estates done by one dedicated mapper who has declined or is
uncontactable, and isolated POIs such as phone boxes, post-boxes and pubs.
(But I've not looked at really densely-mapped areas such as London, and the
situation may be more serious there.)

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Robert Whittaker (OSM)]

On 4 March 2012 12:42, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Simon has very kindly provided this:
> http://odbl.poole.ch/uk_major_roads.txt

Excellent -- thanks to both of you for getting this done. Do you know
if/when that file will be updated as ways are re-mapped?

MarkS  wrote:
> motorway9
> motorway_link   44
> primary 1581
> primary_link68
> trunk   606
> trunk_link  131
>
> The list should ensure that the motorways and their links can be tracked down 
> and done.
> I'll try and work on these in the next few days.  It might also be possible 
> to save specific
> A-Roads by filtering the list (and using JOSM to download the specifc objects 
> that need
> remapping).
>
> Given the numbers for the other roads it seems unlikely that we'll have a 
> complete set of
> trunk roads come 1 April.

I think the trunk roads are doable too if enough people help out. It
would only take a dozen people to each do 3 segments per day, and we'd
have all the trunk roads and motorways covered by the end of the
month...

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Jonathan Bennett]

Further to this, one helpful thing is if everyone makes sure they've
uploaded all their traces to OSM. I know I'm guilty of working from the
trace files locally when mapping, then forgetting to upload them so
other mappers can make use of the data.

That way we're not entirely reliant on OS data to fill in some gaps.

Jonathan

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[MarkS]

Thanks Richard/Simon,

If anybody is interested the numbers of each type of way in the file are:

motorway9
motorway_link   44
primary 1581
primary_link68
trunk   606
trunk_link  131

The list should ensure that the motorways and their links can be tracked 
down and done.  I'll try and work on these in the next few days.  It 
might also be possible to save specific A-Roads by filtering the list 
(and using JOSM to download the specifc objects that need remapping).


Given the numbers for the other roads it seems unlikely that we'll have 
a complete set of trunk roads come 1 April.


I suspect the actual final losses will be worse because from what I've 
seen we have a plenty of ways where all (or all but one) of the nodes 
will be deleted, so presumably the way will go.  We also have the issue 
of nodes getting deleted where roads join, which presumably will create 
breaks in roads come 1 April.


Still, gives us something to do.

MarkS




On 04/03/2012 12:42, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

MarkS wrote:

As Robert says getting a list of problem highway nodes/ways would
be a good step.


Simon has very kindly provided this:
http://odbl.poole.ch/uk_major_roads.txt

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Richard Fairhurst]

The other day I wrote:
> But there are a few significant problem areas:
> - Hertfordshire (Luton, Hemel etc.)

I'm delighted to report that the two major undecided mappers in
Hertfordshire have both just agreed. Thank you both.

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Richard Fairhurst]

MarkS wrote:
> As Robert says getting a list of problem highway nodes/ways would 
> be a good step.

Simon has very kindly provided this:
http://odbl.poole.ch/uk_major_roads.txt

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Richard Fairhurst]

Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:
> I wonder if another prioritisation approach might be useful 
> too -- prioritising certain high-value types of objects, 
> where-ever they might be.

Yes, I think that's an excellent idea. Obviously, everyone has their own
definition of "high value" (I'm quite anxious to make sure the NCN survives
in good shape, for example), but motorways, A and B roads should certainly
be a principal focus. I've been doing a bunch of work on the A55 in North
Wales and have noticed others working on A roads around the place.

> You can sort of look for these types of object using BadMap [1] at 
> low zooms, but it's not that easy, and the low zooms aren't 
> updated as often I don't think. It would be much easier if there 
> was a specific list of objects to work from. I'm afraid I don't 
> have the hardware / experience / technical expertise to 
> generate the data sets, but maybe someone who does might 
> think it's a good idea...

That sort of heavy data lifting is a bit outside my comfort zone as well,
I'm afraid, but I wonder if maybe asking Simon just to increase the highway
weights at small scales might make them easier to spot...

cheers
Richard
who is currently mapping a country walk (fresh territory) from this
afternoon because it shouldn't _all_ be about armchair remapping ;)



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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[MarkS]

I agree that we want to try and have a complete main road network network.

Whilst longish stretches of road are easy to spot there are a lot of 
other small sections (eg. bridges) which are harder to see on cleanmap 
(unless the rest of the area is clean).


We also have the issue of nodes going at highway junctions. Even if the 
ways stay we may loose the critical join.  There a still a number of 
motorway junctions like this across the UK (and there must be plenty on 
trunk roads).  You need OSMI to see these and with things like footpaths 
(which we can't remap remotely) adding to the red it is very difficult 
to spot.   I do wonder if it would be easier to erase things we can't 
remap so we can identify more easily those we can.


As Robert says getting a list of problem highway nodes/ways would be a 
good step.


Mark_S


On 03/03/2012 09:19, Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:

On 2 March 2012 14:35, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a good
time to look at the current state of the UK.


We're almost certainly not going to be able to able to get the UK
completely clean by the switch-over, and it's definitely good if we
can prioritise work on particularly badly-tainted areas. But I wonder
if another prioritisation approach might be useful too -- prioritising
certain high-value types of objects, where-ever they might be.

For instance, as far as routing is concerned, any gaps in the major
road network is likely to cause significant problems for data-users.
So might it be possible for someone to generate a list of
highway=motorway and highway=trunk objects that are tainted, so people
could work on eliminating those. The idea could extended to include
the corresponding *_link ways, and if progress is good we could
continue to do highway=primary and highway=secondary.

We might want to do the same for railway=rail and perhaps
waterway=river. Are there any other types of object people can think
of that might be worth prioritising?

You can sort of look for these types of object using BadMap [1] at low
zooms, but it's not that easy, and the low zooms aren't updated as
often I don't think. It would be much easier if there was a specific
list of objects to work from. I'm afraid I don't have the hardware /
experience / technical expertise to generate the data sets, but maybe
someone who does might think it's a good idea...

Robert.

[1] http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=6&lat=54.28388&lon=-3.2&layers=00B0





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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Robert Whittaker (OSM)]

On 2 March 2012 14:35, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a good
> time to look at the current state of the UK.

We're almost certainly not going to be able to able to get the UK
completely clean by the switch-over, and it's definitely good if we
can prioritise work on particularly badly-tainted areas. But I wonder
if another prioritisation approach might be useful too -- prioritising
certain high-value types of objects, where-ever they might be.

For instance, as far as routing is concerned, any gaps in the major
road network is likely to cause significant problems for data-users.
So might it be possible for someone to generate a list of
highway=motorway and highway=trunk objects that are tainted, so people
could work on eliminating those. The idea could extended to include
the corresponding *_link ways, and if progress is good we could
continue to do highway=primary and highway=secondary.

We might want to do the same for railway=rail and perhaps
waterway=river. Are there any other types of object people can think
of that might be worth prioritising?

You can sort of look for these types of object using BadMap [1] at low
zooms, but it's not that easy, and the low zooms aren't updated as
often I don't think. It would be much easier if there was a specific
list of objects to work from. I'm afraid I don't have the hardware /
experience / technical expertise to generate the data sets, but maybe
someone who does might think it's a good idea...

Robert.

[1] http://cleanmap.poole.ch/?zoom=6&lat=54.28388&lon=-3.2&layers=00B0

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2012-03-02 at 14:35 +, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a 
> good time to look at the current state of the UK. What's likely not to 
> be carried through to the new database?
> 
> The good news is that the UK is in a very healthy state overall.  Just 
> under 99% of nodes will survive (98.68% according to odbl.poole.ch, and 
> there have been a couple of acceptances since then), 97.64% of highways, 
> and 99.48% of other ways.
> 
> But there are a few significant problem areas:
> 
I have been concentrating on my home area of Shropshire, I began
remapping at the end of January, mainly concentrating on the A roads,
had planned to fix the M54 but was beaten to that one. Have remapped
some sections of the A41, A53 and A442 as well as a few minor fixes
along the A5. It would have been embarrassing for the OSM community if
these types of roads disappear on April 1st. Its not in too bad a state,
I have traces for some that now show up on Badmap and just need to do
some editing. The most that will be lost is some housing estates in
Telford, which can be put back in a few lunchtimes of surveying.

Have also been looking at my old area, Leicester, there are a few main
roads that I can fix with GPS traces as we visit relatives and some
others can be fixed with some local knowledge and bing. There are some
big housing estates in Leicester, that will vanish. 

Have emailed Sherbourne and millimole2001 as they contributed a lot of
these areas, but have received no response. Is there anyway of knowing
if the email bounced?

I am GPS logging most of my journeys now, so I may have some traces to
fix thing that break.

Phil


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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Lester Caine]

Matt Williams wrote:

Overall I think that Coventry will come out of this in better shape as
I'm trying to take the time to clean things up wherever possible.


I was finding that myself ... it was easier simply to wipe a problem section and 
then add a more comprehensive set of data in it's place ... trace a building 
rather than just add a new node. In many cases what I wiped was a little suspect 
anyway so I doubt that loosing it would be that much agro anyway!


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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Andrew]

Matt Williams  writes:

> 
> I'm mainly focusing on
> the road network first since I feel that's something that we don't
> want to suddenly be broken on the 1st of April and is most easily
> verifiable from Bing/OS.
> 
> Overall I think that Coventry will come out of this in better shape as
> I'm trying to take the time to clean things up wherever possible.
> 
> Cheers,
> Matt
> 

Both of those have been my approach in Surrey.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Chris Hill]

On 02/03/12 14:35, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
If you have some free time over the next few weeks, do go and remap. 
P2 and JOSM both have licence status displays. Bing and OS StreetView 
are immensely useful resources (my P2 prefs have them assigned to 
function keys F1 and F2 for easy reference).
I'll tackle the nearest area to me, northern Lincolnshire. The biggest 
undecided there is Nevov whom I have tried  and failed to contact.


--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


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Re: [Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Matt Williams]

On 2 March 2012 14:35, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a good
> time to look at the current state of the UK. What's likely not to be carried
> through to the new database?
>
> The good news is that the UK is in a very healthy state overall.  Just under
> 99% of nodes will survive (98.68% according to odbl.poole.ch, and there have
> been a couple of acceptances since then), 97.64% of highways, and 99.48% of
> other ways.
>
> But there are a few significant problem areas:
>
> - NE Surrey/SW London
> - Hertfordshire (Luton, Hemel etc.)
> - the Wirral
>
> There are also milder problems in Manchester, Coventry and Hampshire, and,
> of course, isolated pockets here and there.

For the record, I'm working on Coventry at the moment. I hope to have
time over the next month to blitz it clean but I welcome any other
mappers in the area to help out too. Fortunately the majority of
Coventry was mapped by DamoCov (agreed) before sherbourne (undecided)
made his changes. Most street names were entered by DamoCov and any
that weren't are available from OS OpenData StreetView; for those few
that remain I'll have to do a personal survey. I'm mainly focusing on
the road network first since I feel that's something that we don't
want to suddenly be broken on the 1st of April and is most easily
verifiable from Bing/OS.

Overall I think that Coventry will come out of this in better shape as
I'm trying to take the time to clean things up wherever possible.

Cheers,
Matt

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[Talk-GB] Licence change - one month to go

[Richard Fairhurst]

We change to the new licence in just under a month's time, so it's a 
good time to look at the current state of the UK. What's likely not to 
be carried through to the new database?


The good news is that the UK is in a very healthy state overall.  Just 
under 99% of nodes will survive (98.68% according to odbl.poole.ch, and 
there have been a couple of acceptances since then), 97.64% of highways, 
and 99.48% of other ways.


But there are a few significant problem areas:

- NE Surrey/SW London
- Hertfordshire (Luton, Hemel etc.)
- the Wirral

There are also milder problems in Manchester, Coventry and Hampshire, 
and, of course, isolated pockets here and there.


On the other hand, vast swathes of the country are almost unscathed: 
Wales and Scotland are both in fine fettle, so too East Anglia, the 
south Midlands and Cotswolds, Yorkshire and the North-East, the 
South-West, the Marches.


Obviously a small number of people have made it clear that they do not 
intend to agree to the new licence, and their work is lost to us. We are 
continuing to try and contact those who have not yet indicated either 
way, and have had some recent successes. But this is likely to be a game 
of diminishing returns, and there are some people who are just 
uncontactable - registered e-mail addresses at expired domains with no 
other presence on the web, that sort of thing.


If you have some free time over the next few weeks, do go and remap. P2 
and JOSM both have licence status displays. Bing and OS StreetView are 
immensely useful resources (my P2 prefs have them assigned to function 
keys F1 and F2 for easy reference). The 'BADMAP' layer on Cleanmap (see 
below) is an easy way of discovering things that need fixing. It would 
be good not to have any nasty surprises on 1st April. :)


Useful resources:

http://cleanmap.poole.ch/ <-- see what's likely to be kept/lost
http://url.ie/e717 <-- OSM Inspector licence-change view
	http://odbl.poole.ch/great_britain-20120213-20120229-poly.html <-- 
latest stats


cheers
Richard


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