Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
Matthijs Melissen wrote: I therefore think inviting list members to vote in order to make the position of the community explicit - in addition to taking comments on the mailing list into account, not as a replacement of it - is the safest way to proceed. On reflection, it would be more helpful, and less controversial, if you were to describe this process as a poll rather than a vote. A vote is traditionally used to move to a binding decision. A poll is seeking to gauge the level of support, often as a piece of supporting evidence for a wider case. In this case I hope you'll agree the latter is more appropriate. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Voting-mechanical-edit-UK-shop-names-tp5822571p5823063.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
2014-11-04 15:20 GMT+00:00 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Matthijs Melissen wrote: I therefore think inviting list members to vote in order to make the position of the community explicit - in addition to taking comments on the mailing list into account, not as a replacement of it - is the safest way to proceed. On reflection, it would be more helpful, and less controversial, if you were to describe this process as a poll rather than a vote. A vote is traditionally used to move to a binding decision. A poll is seeking to gauge the level of support, often as a piece of supporting evidence for a wider case. In this case I hope you'll agree the latter is more appropriate. Nice suggestion. One could even call it a straw poll which hopefully makes it even more obvious that it isn't a binding vote? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_poll Best Dan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 4 November 2014 15:20, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: On reflection, it would be more helpful, and less controversial, if you were to describe this process as a poll rather than a vote. That's a good suggestion, I think the word 'poll' better expresses what the intention is. I will refer to it as such from now on. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
+1 -Original Message- From: Richard Fairhurst [mailto:rich...@systemed.net] Sent: 01 November 2014 13:56 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names Dan S wrote: Also, Matthijs sent out an RFC email proposing this whole process - he got lots of feedback (which he has taken into consideration), but no-one objected to the voting mechanism. It's not your fault if you only just noticed this happening, of course Indeed, which I only just did. I think you misunderstand the point. Whether or not Matthijs renames a given shop from the Co-operative food to The Co-operative Food is of minimal interest to me. As long as the new name tag is actually what's on the ground (and AFAICT from a distance, several of the suggested changes originally weren't, but feedback has helped this get better) then, yeah, whatever floats your boat. As you say, he has been open with the whole process. What I am very strongly opposed to is this entirely new idea that mechanical edits can be ok-ed by a wiki vote. The wiki voting system is trivially subvertible, as has been repeatedly demonstrated. It really doesn't take much imagination to see how, even though Matthijs is proceeding in good faith, this precedent could be misused by others in the future. That is what I am seeking to avoid. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Voting-mechanical-edit-UK-shop-names-tp5822571p5822632.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 2 November 2014 16:01, SK53 sk53@gmail.com wrote: So in summary: let all work on the documentation, discussions, but please work for consensus and recognise that allowing time to build that will result in an overall better dataset. I agree that seeking consensus is important, which is why I stopped the vote (even though the proposal had 2/3 support at the point I stopped it). Given the comments, the proposal was clearly not good enough yet. I certainly don't think voting should be used as a substitute for seeking consensus. It is also clear that mechanical edits should not be carried out without community support. I don't think a single person objecting should be able to block a mechanical edit, but 'no significant objection' for a mechanical edit is not implied by a majority vote either. That's why I used 2/3 support as a threshold in my proposal, but maybe it should have been even 90% or 95%. In any case, I think we should have a way to measure the amount of support a proposal has in the community. I agree that the process of voting is far from optimal, but it's the best way to gauge the community's opinion we have. I think voting is better than looking at mailing list replies alone to decide whether a proposal is supported by the community, as 1) the number of voters is typically larger than the number of people taking part in the discussion, and 2) people objecting are more likely to comment on a proposal, making it harder to understand from mailing list replies alone whether an objection is 'significant' or not. I therefore think inviting list members to vote in order to make the position of the community explicit - in addition to taking comments on the mailing list into account, not as a replacement of it - is the safest way to proceed. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 1 November 2014 12:50, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Mechanical edits stand or fall by their own merits. They cannot be ok-ed by a vote. From the Automated Edits Code of Conduct: We do not require or recommend a formal vote, but if there is significant objection to your plan - and even minorities may be significant! - then change it or drop it altogether. We historically have a low tolerance of mechanical edits and imports in the UK; we prefer to make large-scale changes by hand. That is one of the reasons why the OSM map of the UK is so good. A come one, come all vote on the wiki can be trivially gerrymandered into supporting your proposals without any proof of approval by the people who are affected by such a bulk change, i.e. UK mappers. I am not sure where you got the idea of a vote for mechanical edits (Wikipedia? wiki.osm.org tag pages?), but there is no precedent for it in OSM and I would ask you to withdraw it. Thank you for your comments, I understand your worries. I agree that voting is not the ultimate means of deciding whether a mechanical edit can go ahead or not - I'm sorry if my phrasing made you believe otherwise. The ultimate authority to decide whether an automatic edit is acceptable or not is the OSMF, who delegate this responsibility to the DWG. We (unfortunately) don't know exactly what criteria the DWG use. However, the DWG has repeatedly indicated that they strongly rely on the position of the community. To avoid a long trail of 'me too' reactions, as well as to avoid giving too much weight to the loudest voices, I think voting is the best way to determine the position of the community. The DWG has in the past never made decisions that go against the preference of the community. So I think it is likely that a decision taken with (significant) community support will also pass the scrutiny of the DWG. I agree however this is by no means a guarantee - especially in cases, like you point out, where there is strong evidence that the voting results do not reflect the opinions of the community. It is by the way not true that there is no precedent to use votes for mechanical edits - the retagging of musical instrument shops has been discussed in a similar way, see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/Musical_instrument and the corresponding discussion on the tagging list. I hope this clarifies this procedure, and I also hope it at least takes part of your worries away. Kind regards, Matthijs Melissen ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 02/11/14 14:06, Matthijs Melissen wrote: It is by the way not true that there is no precedent to use votes for mechanical edits - the retagging of musical instrument shops has been discussed in a similar way, see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/Musical_instrument and the corresponding discussion on the tagging list. Tidying a tag value is a different case to amending free format text. That a tagging method evolves is well documented, and other uses of those tags can be cleanly documented even if the merged 'spellings' may actually refer to a different meaning. The renamed tags can be reviewed fairly easily and may identify additional changes. I hope this clarifies this procedure, and I also hope it at least takes part of your worries away. The free format areas are not documented on the wiki although a case could be made for creating guide lines on a country by country basis. What ever happens I think that the availability of adding comments/discussion to a change set perhaps highlights another reason why if any of these are applied, each should have it's own commit and then if there is any follow up required it is easy to discuss that via the change set and revert if required. I still prefer this to be a more manual process for free format material, but if each change is documented and processed as any objections are addressed it will mitigate a little the lack of any real observations confirming the need for a change ... and opens the door to correcting any collateral damage more easily. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
Hi Dan et al., I completely agree with both sides here: - Matthijs has worked really hard to consult the community and write-up what he plans to do. He has used the mechanisms which exist (wiki the mailing list). - Using voting on the wiki as a means to determine if something has achieved a suitable consensus has never itself achieved any consensus in the British OSM community. as witnessed by the both of the strong NOs from, *inter alia*, Richard Fairhurst and Chris Hill. Extending a technique, which itself has at best luke-warm support does create an unfortunate precedent. Generally, voting on the wiki fails because a (self-selected) majority is not a consensus. Often it is merely a consensus that we agree to differ. Consensus decisions often take time, and certainly can't be rushed. Although I did vote in the bookie/bookmaker decision, I will not participate in future wiki votes on mechanical edits (in general I usually regret the rare times I vote on the wiki, because it suggests I support a process which I think has manifold problems), but I will certainly resent it, if this means my opnion no longer is taken into account. My overall feeling about Matthijs various shop-related things is that I support the objectives. However, I think that, as no one has complained over much in the past 10 years about these things, we can afford to wait a few weeks or months before plunging in. (I suspect that one reason why no one has complained is that the retail datasets just aren't complete enough to be useful compared to, say, the recent one released by Geolytix. And please dont use this latter in OSM, they used Google for refining geolocation). So in summary: let all work on the documentation, discussions, but please work for consensus and recognise that allowing time to build that will result in an overall better dataset. Regards, Jerry On 1 November 2014 13:36, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-01 12:50 GMT+00:00 Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Matthijs Melissen wrote: Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain shops within the UK by renaming them. No, it isn't. Mechanical edits stand or fall by their own merits. They cannot be ok-ed by a vote. From the Automated Edits Code of Conduct: We do not require or recommend a formal vote, but if there is significant objection to your plan - and even minorities may be significant! - then change it or drop it altogether. We historically have a low tolerance of mechanical edits and imports in the UK; we prefer to make large-scale changes by hand. That is one of the reasons why the OSM map of the UK is so good. A come one, come all vote on the wiki can be trivially gerrymandered into supporting your proposals without any proof of approval by the people who are affected by such a bulk change, i.e. UK mappers. I am not sure where you got the idea of a vote for mechanical edits (Wikipedia? wiki.osm.org tag pages?), but there is no precedent for it in OSM and I would ask you to withdraw it. The rationale part of the webpage* seems to me to set out Matthjis' perspective on why to ask for a vote. Also, Matthijs sent out an RFC email proposing this whole process - he got lots of feedback (which he has taken into consideration), but no-one objected to the voting mechanism. It's not your fault if you only just noticed this happening, of course, but it's a little rude to declare No it isn't in the sense of shutting him down when he's proceeding in such an open and consultative manner. Lots of people have discussed Matthijs' proposed changes in the RFC thread and now this thread. To me, it seems a good example of consultation. Cheers Dan * https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 01/11/14 01:45, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On the whole the changes seem logical, but I'd rather they were applied manually than setting a precedent to allow changes that may not ACTUALLY apply as some small outlet is being a little economic with the name they are using ... I would guess that's a rather hypothetical situation. Do you have any example? More a case that any attempt to do the job properly' and create proper relational data by using any table of 'valid' data and only allowing a reference to that table to be used has always been frowned upon. If we are going to 'dictate' what is acceptable content it should be managed properly rather than blindly re-writing tags. I'm not saying that the changes are wrong ... just that this is not the right method to get things done. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 1 November 2014 01:06, Lester Caine mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Brantano (UK) Limited shops are all branded 'Brantano Footwear' that is their shop 'Logo' Matthijs: We currently have 116 times Brantano and 12 times Brantano Footwear in the UK. I would argue, apparently like most mappers, the the 'Footwear' in the logo is not part of the title, but a description of their activities. The logo is the symbol at the top, the shop name is Brantano Footwear, the operator is Brantano (UK) Limited. This is (was) the shop sign at the one I mapped (as Brantano Footwear, as that is the name on the sign): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9411882,1.2588319,3a,15y,222.14h,92.11t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sp87biBi-D33C1-NHe_jULw!2e0 I’m surprised I haven’t also mapped this one: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.892658,0.8917593,3a,15y,244.38h,92.28t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sozacGrQTk-TQHJxT3s2dxQ!2e0 in Colchester, as I think I bought my shoes there. But thinking more about it I bought the shoes in 2004 and didn’t start mapping until 2008. Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
To paraphrase a well-known saying: Quality is in the eyes of the consumer. How long do you think we can survive with this policy of refusing to acknowledge that there is such a thing as good data and bad data? Interpretation of the definition of the name tag (and many others) is incredibly subjective. Abbreviations? Ampersands? Including or excluding suffix type information such as and Sons Ltd? Capitalisation? Spacing? The list is endless As an architect I can only applaud Matthijs' initiative towards some level of normalisation. If there are objections to this particular method, let's have some alternatives out on the table. The fact that this discussion is taking so much time and energy would seem to confirm that we have so far failed to address the data quality issue, which starts with a definition of a norm - even if it is a woolly one if that's what is called for. Once we have a norm, we measure our data against that norm, and take appropriate steps to improve it. If the norm is anything goes, then there should be no discussion, right? Colin On 2014-11-01 09:15, Lester Caine wrote: On 01/11/14 01:45, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On the whole the changes seem logical, but I'd rather they were applied manually than setting a precedent to allow changes that may not ACTUALLY apply as some small outlet is being a little economic with the name they are using ... I would guess that's a rather hypothetical situation. Do you have any example? More a case that any attempt to do the job properly' and create proper relational data by using any table of 'valid' data and only allowing a reference to that table to be used has always been frowned upon. If we are going to 'dictate' what is acceptable content it should be managed properly rather than blindly re-writing tags. I'm not saying that the changes are wrong ... just that this is not the right method to get things done. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 01/11/2014 09:15, Ed Loach wrote: On 1 November 2014 01:06, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Brantano (UK) Limited shops are all branded 'Brantano Footwear' that is their shop 'Logo' The logo is the symbol at the top, the shop name is Brantano Footwear, the operator is Brantano (UK) Limited. This is (was) the shop sign at the one I mapped (as Brantano Footwear, as that is the name on the sign): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9411882,1.2588319,3a,15y,222.14h,92.11t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sp87biBi-D33C1-NHe_jULw!2e0 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9411882,1.2588319,3a,15y,222.14h,92.11t/data=%213m4%211e1%213m2%211sp87biBi-D33C1-NHe_jULw%212e0 If you use their online store locator to find the shop, it's listed as BRANTANO HARWICH: http://www.brantano.co.uk/stores/brantano-harwich-shc151. Same pattern for all their shops, I think. -- Steve --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 31/10/2014 22:51, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Dear all, Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain shops within the UK by renaming them. I'm genuinely not sure about this proposal. Philosophically, I think OSM is a *mapping* project (duh!), and so the correct name is exactly the text which appears on the shop's sign. If a chain of shops were to be inconsistent in how they are signed (I don't know how common this is), then so be it. This leads me to the view that correcting shop names (although desirable) can only safely be done by a ground survey (to check what the sign actually says). On the other hand, I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of the variations this proposal will eliminate are simply mapping errors, and do not reflect actual signing differences. The average quality of the map will be significantly improved by the automated edit, even if a few genuine differences are accidentally lost. -- Cheers, John ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 01/11/2014 09:15, Ed Loach wrote: The logo is the symbol at the top, the shop name is Brantano Footwear, the operator is Brantano (UK) Limited. This is (was) the shop sign at the one I mapped (as Brantano Footwear, as that is the name on the sign): https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9411882,1.2588319,3a,15y,222.14h,92.11t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sp87biBi-D33C1-NHe_jULw!2e0 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9411882,1.2588319,3a,15y,222.14h,92.11t/data=%213m4%211e1%213m2%211sp87biBi-D33C1-NHe_jULw%212e0 I’m surprised I haven’t also mapped this one: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.892658,0.8917593,3a,15y,244.38h,92.28t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sozacGrQTk-TQHJxT3s2dxQ!2e0 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.892658,0.8917593,3a,15y,244.38h,92.28t/data=%213m4%211e1%213m2%211sozacGrQTk-TQHJxT3s2dxQ%212e0 in Colchester, as I think I bought my shoes there. But thinking more about it I bought the shoes in 2004 and didn’t start mapping until 2008. Here is a survey photo of mine, which is similar to the ones Ed posted: https://www.flickr.com/photos/97133921@N03/15494864347/ We should be using the name displayed on the sign, which in the examples above is clearly 'Brantano Footwear'. I would object to any change to the name tagging in these examples. Will ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
Dan S wrote: Also, Matthijs sent out an RFC email proposing this whole process - he got lots of feedback (which he has taken into consideration), but no-one objected to the voting mechanism. It's not your fault if you only just noticed this happening, of course Indeed, which I only just did. I think you misunderstand the point. Whether or not Matthijs renames a given shop from the Co-operative food to The Co-operative Food is of minimal interest to me. As long as the new name tag is actually what's on the ground (and AFAICT from a distance, several of the suggested changes originally weren't, but feedback has helped this get better) then, yeah, whatever floats your boat. As you say, he has been open with the whole process. What I am very strongly opposed to is this entirely new idea that mechanical edits can be ok-ed by a wiki vote. The wiki voting system is trivially subvertible, as has been repeatedly demonstrated. It really doesn't take much imagination to see how, even though Matthijs is proceeding in good faith, this precedent could be misused by others in the future. That is what I am seeking to avoid. Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Voting-mechanical-edit-UK-shop-names-tp5822571p5822632.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 01/11/14 13:36, Dan S wrote: Also, Matthijs sent out an RFC email proposing this whole process - he got lots of feedback (which he has taken into consideration), but no-one objected to the voting mechanism. It's not your fault if you only just noticed this happening, of course, but it's a little rude to declare No it isn't in the sense of shutting him down when he's proceeding in such an open and consultative manner. Lots of people have discussed Matthijs' proposed changes in the RFC thread and now this thread. To me, it seems a good example of consultation. Many times in the past we have objected to someone's 'automatic' updating of material. My first objection here is that so many changes are being lumped into a single 'edit'. As a very minimum each change should be handled on it's own merit, but as people have been checking some of the data, the more important question is if a problem as been confirmed by actual surveying on the ground then WHY hasn't that person already updated the tag, and then we have a real person in the change history who HAS checked rather than hundreds of random changes grouped under the banner 'These were probably wrong!'. More important! If details HAVE been surveyed and tag in a way that this change then reverts a correct local input how does one then identify those changes and prevent editing now and in the future if someone decides that there are still 'mistakes' that have not been fixed. The rule is that on the whole tags are always free format text. We would not refuse an edit just because it's value 'appears' to be a spelling mistake, and that principle is enshrined in the current guidelines, so we need editors to ensure that the data they are imputing *IS* correct! Personally I would prefer that every one of the identified 'problems' resulted in a message to the original editor asking them to check rather than blindly making an executive decision that something has to be wrong :( Yes we want consistent data, but that is not achieved by blindly making it consistent ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
Chris, I appreciate what you're saying - except for one point: 2014-11-01 15:35 GMT+00:00 Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net: [...] to what is on the ground, I'll revert it and ask for Matthijs to be blocked from editing, as I would any other vandal. Please can we all stop using the word vandal to mean someone who makes edits I/we disagree with? That's very very far from what vandalism actually is. We do have vandals in osm but please, we can all tell the difference between vandalism and difference of opinion. Can't we?? Dan ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 01/11/14 15:39, Dan S wrote: Chris, I appreciate what you're saying - except for one point: 2014-11-01 15:35 GMT+00:00 Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net: [...] to what is on the ground, I'll revert it and ask for Matthijs to be blocked from editing, as I would any other vandal. Please can we all stop using the word vandal to mean someone who makes edits I/we disagree with? That's very very far from what vandalism actually is. We do have vandals in osm but please, we can all tell the difference between vandalism and difference of opinion. Can't we?? Dan Matthijs is not a vandal, he has not knowingly made wide-scale incorrect edits that he knows other people disagree with. If he does that would change my opinion. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 1 November 2014 10:50, Will Phillips wp4...@gmail.com wrote: Here is a survey photo of mine, which is similar to the ones Ed posted: https://www.flickr.com/photos/97133921@N03/15494864347/ We should be using the name displayed on the sign, which in the examples above is clearly 'Brantano Footwear'. I would object to any change to the name tagging in these examples. It is quite common for shops to list the products they sell under the shop name on a shield. Example: http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/dennoir/Artistic/290320092891hamersmith.jpg I don't think anyone would add this shop as 'Sweets News cold drinks magazines newspapers sweets bus passes'. One could argue that the text 'Footwear' likewise indicates the products the shop sells, rather than it being part of the name. Note that the term 'footwear' does not appear on their website: http://www.brantano.co.uk However, on other channels, like their Twitter, they do apparently use the term Brantano Footwear: https://twitter.com/Brantano_Shoes, so the situation is not entirely clear. Please let me know what you think after this explanation. If you (or anyone else) still disagrees with this change, I will remove it from the proposal. -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
Dear all, Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain shops within the UK by renaming them. Please cast your vote at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. More information can be found on this page as well. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
Hi, On 10/31/2014 11:51 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain shops within the UK by renaming them. I have the following problem with this: I do understand the rationale and it is indeed true that it is nicer to have a unified landscape of names. However, is this not leading us down a path where we'll have to repeat such edits time and time again, to fix all the misspellings that have been introduced in the mean time? And to make another mass change if chain A is bought out by chain B and the name changes? And make another mass change if the PR guys of Best-One decide that they'd from now on prefer to be called BestOne? And... where does it stop? Will such a mass edit not make data consumers believe that the shop will always be BQ and never B Q or anything else, and create an expectation setting that before too long requires of us to make sure our editors only add the correct spelling (whatever the corporate PR wants it to be at the moment)? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 31/10/14 22:51, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain shops within the UK by renaming them. Please cast your vote at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. More information can be found on this page as well. Brantano (UK) Limited shops are all branded 'Brantano Footwear' that is their shop 'Logo' On the whole the changes seem logical, but I'd rather they were applied manually than setting a precedent to allow changes that may not ACTUALLY apply as some small outlet is being a little economic with the name they are using ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names
On 1 November 2014 01:06, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Brantano (UK) Limited shops are all branded 'Brantano Footwear' that is their shop 'Logo' We currently have 116 times Brantano and 12 times Brantano Footwear in the UK. I would argue, apparently like most mappers, the the 'Footwear' in the logo is not part of the title, but a description of their activities. On the whole the changes seem logical, but I'd rather they were applied manually than setting a precedent to allow changes that may not ACTUALLY apply as some small outlet is being a little economic with the name they are using ... I would guess that's a rather hypothetical situation. Do you have any example? -- Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
