Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[ael]

I would like to apologize for my posting which seems to have offended
some people. I admit that it was strong, but the welcome box was
hugely intrusive on the small screen that I was using. I spend more time
than I can really afford contributing to OSM, and was annoyed that the
change was getting in the way at a stressful moment.

I have been a user and advocate for open source for many years, so
normally refrain from criticism on the basis that if I can't or don't
have time to fix it myself, then I have no right to comment. That
goes with deep admiration and acknowledgement of all the free
contributions from others.

In this case, I had not had time to look at videos and slides from the
SOTM sessions, or the preview, but others had already identified the
problem, but it seemed that the message had come back that there was not
"much hope for this one to change". I know that I should have looked
at the github comments as well as the other material so that I
understood the arguments properly, but time was scarce.

In my area, there are about 27 people registered with OSM within about 8km.
Of these 20 have made no edits, 5 have made less than 3 edits, and there
are just 2 who have made more significant contributions, although neither
have been active recently. So around here, at least, the problem is not
with getting people to sign up, but something after joining. Thus I
found the idea of trying to coerce new people into signing up misguided.
More importantly, as an "insider" I found the welcome box alienating,
and I was sure that outsiders would be even more repelled.
If I had consulted the source material, perhaps I would have discovered
that I had misunderstood, or that there was evidence to the contrary.

When I encountered the new welcome box, I jumped to the conclusion that the
change had been steam-rollered through without any acknowledgement of
the reservations that had been expressed on this list and, apparently,
elsewhere which was not the usual ethos of the OSM community. 

I have to say that now that the intrusive large intrusive box has gone,
the new osm map page is superb. So congratulations to everyone who has
worked on it, and responded to feedback.

This email was delayed by system reconfiguration ...

ael

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Andy Allan]

On 2 December 2013 20:40, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> So, we have an announcements list, but there was no announcement there
> about the recent change, which people are complaining was
> inadequately, er, announced? I think they may have a case.

And here you are, complaining that nobody is volunteering to help
write announcements, but at the same time, not volunteering to help.

> I'm not sure that more people on a committee will be the solution, here.

So we don't have enough people helping with CWG, and so there's nobody
writing the announcements. But here you are stating that you think
having more volunteers on CWG would, err, not help.

I'm getting the impression that you are, basically, happy to complain,
but unwilling to help.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Andrew Hain]

Richard Fairhurst  writes:

> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/announce/ :)
> (it's a bit unloved though... needs more people volunteering for CWG to
> help)

Could that go into the community blogs for people who follow OSM bu web pages?

--
Andrew


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Andy Mabbett]

On 2 December 2013 15:19, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> Perhaps we need an "Announce" mailing list (with follow-ups set to
>> the 'talk' list)?
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/announce/ :)

So, we have an announcements list, but there was no announcement there
about the recent change, which people are complaining was
inadequately, er, announced? I think they may have a case.

> (it's a bit unloved though... needs more people volunteering for CWG to
> help)

I'm not sure that more people on a committee will be the solution, here.

Is there an approved procedure for releasing significant website
changes, to which an action to post to that list could be added?

>> I miss the slider for zooming in and out. Having to make
>> multiple clicks (on the "-" icon for zooming out) is an
>> inconvenient kludge.
>
> You can shift-click the +/- to move three levels at once - apparently this
> is a standard Leaflet feature.

Thank you. While useful to know, that's another kludge (requires two
hands; the slider, only one).

While I acknowledge that the removal of the slider pre-dates the
recent change; what was the reason for doing that?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Brian Prangle]

Hi David

Thanks for pointing that out. It might seem obvious to you but to me it
wasn't intuitive because I couldn't find it without asking. What's the
logic in promoting user diaries on the banner and not community blogs when
the community-driven section has links to both and both seem just as
relevant to users wanting to see evidence of a community and to join in
telling people about what they're up to. To me it would seem much more
intuitive to have Community in the banner in place of User Diaries with a
drop-down menu for Community Blogs, and User Diaries and the Activity dates
we used to have. And yes, I should have been active in the discussion about
the design BEFORE the go live date!

Regards

Brian


On 2 December 2013 16:57, David Earl  wrote:

> It's also linked from the "Community Driven" section on the About page,
> something that seems like the obvious place to look.
>
> David
>
>
> On 02/12/2013 16:23, Andy Robinson wrote:
>
>>
>> Brian,
>>
>> “Blog” link in the wiki left menu includes on the linked page the
>> community blogs link.
>>
>> Or http://Blogs.OpenStreetMap.org gets you there too of course
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> *From:*Brian Prangle [mailto:bpran...@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* 02 December 2013 16:17
>> *To:* Talk GB
>> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website
>>
>>
>> Where do I find community blogs now?
>>
>> On 2 December 2013 16:06, David Earl > da...@frankieandshadow.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Andy Robinson wrote:
>>
>> But how do I get the box back now that I’ve closed it ;-)
>>
>> Both the links it provided are duplicated in the banner anyway (Learn
>> More == About and Start Mapping == Sign Up), it was always only signposting
>> these more prominently.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> 
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[David Earl]

It's also linked from the "Community Driven" section on the About page, 
something that seems like the obvious place to look.


David

On 02/12/2013 16:23, Andy Robinson wrote:


Brian,

“Blog” link in the wiki left menu includes on the linked page the 
community blogs link.


Or http://Blogs.OpenStreetMap.org gets you there too of course

Cheers

Andy

*From:*Brian Prangle [mailto:bpran...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* 02 December 2013 16:17
*To:* Talk GB
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Where do I find community blogs now?

On 2 December 2013 16:06, David Earl <mailto:da...@frankieandshadow.com>> wrote:


Andy Robinson wrote:

But how do I get the box back now that I’ve closed it ;-)

Both the links it provided are duplicated in the banner anyway (Learn 
More == About and Start Mapping == Sign Up), it was always only 
signposting these more prominently.


David




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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[David Earl]

It's also linked from the "Community Driven" section on the About page, 
something that seems like the obvious place to look.


David

On 02/12/2013 16:23, Andy Robinson wrote:


Brian,

“Blog” link in the wiki left menu includes on the linked page the 
community blogs link.


Or http://Blogs.OpenStreetMap.org gets you there too of course

Cheers

Andy

*From:*Brian Prangle [mailto:bpran...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* 02 December 2013 16:17
*To:* Talk GB
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Where do I find community blogs now?

On 2 December 2013 16:06, David Earl <mailto:da...@frankieandshadow.com>> wrote:


Andy Robinson wrote:

But how do I get the box back now that I’ve closed it ;-)

Both the links it provided are duplicated in the banner anyway (Learn 
More == About and Start Mapping == Sign Up), it was always only 
signposting these more prominently.


David




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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Andy Robinson]

Brian,

 

"Blog" link in the wiki left menu includes on the linked page the community
blogs link.

Or http://Blogs.OpenStreetMap.org gets you there too of course

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Brian Prangle [mailto:bpran...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 02 December 2013 16:17
To: Talk GB
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

 

Where do I find community blogs now?

 

On 2 December 2013 16:06, David Earl  wrote:

Andy Robinson wrote:

But how do I get the box back now that I've closed it ;-) 

 

Both the links it provided are duplicated in the banner anyway (Learn More
== About and Start Mapping == Sign Up), it was always only signposting these
more prominently.

David




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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Brian Prangle]

Where do I find community blogs now?


On 2 December 2013 16:06, David Earl  wrote:

> Andy Robinson wrote:
>
>> But how do I get the box back now that I’ve closed it ;-)
>>
>
> Both the links it provided are duplicated in the banner anyway (Learn More
> == About and Start Mapping == Sign Up), it was always only signposting
> these more prominently.
>
> David
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Barry Cornelius]

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013, David Earl wrote:
Both the links it provided are duplicated in the banner anyway (Learn More == 
About and Start Mapping == Sign Up), it was always only signposting these 
more prominently.


To make that more obvious, wouldn't be better to use the same words on 
the buttons in both places?


--
Barry Cornelius
http://www.northeastraces.com/
http://www.thehs2.com/
http://www.rowmaps.com/
http://www.oxonpaths.com/
http://www.barrycornelius.com/


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[David Earl]

Andy Robinson wrote:
But how do I get the box back now that I’ve closed it ;-) 


Both the links it provided are duplicated in the banner anyway (Learn 
More == About and Start Mapping == Sign Up), it was always only 
signposting these more prominently.


David


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Lester Caine]

Andy Robinson wrote:

But how do I get the box back now that I’ve closed it ;-)


I know you are asking for a button ;)
But wiping the cookies for the site resets everything and should be an available 
option to comply with the cookie directive anyway? Since the servers are UK 
based, shouldn't that directive by observed with the correct warning?



*From:*Brian Prangle [mailto:bpran...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* 02 December 2013 15:26
*To:* Talk GB
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Thank you to whoever it was who listened to this thread and implemented a close
function. It's much appreciated


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Robert Scott]

On Monday 02 December 2013, Lester Caine wrote:
> I'm just happy with emphasis where it is shouting out in my head

Why am I not surprised that Lester hears voices in his head when composing 
emails?


robert.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Andy Robinson]

But how do I get the box back now that I've closed it ;-)

 

From: Brian Prangle [mailto:bpran...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 02 December 2013 15:26
To: Talk GB
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

 

Thank you to whoever it was who listened to this thread and implemented a
close function. It's much appreciated

Regards

Brian

 

On 2 December 2013 15:19, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> Perhaps we need an "Announce" mailing list (with follow-ups set to
> the 'talk' list)?

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/announce/ :)
(it's a bit unloved though... needs more people volunteering for CWG to
help)


> I miss the slider for zooming in and out. Having to make
> multiple clicks (on the "-" icon for zooming out) is an
> inconvenient kludge.

You can shift-click the +/- to move three levels at once - apparently this
is a standard Leaflet feature.

(It's interesting to see that Google are now actually second-guessing
people's map clicks and, under certain circumstances, zooming in more than
one level on click.)

cheers
Richard





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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Brian Prangle]

Thank you to whoever it was who listened to this thread and implemented a
close function. It's much appreciated

Regards

Brian


On 2 December 2013 15:19, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> Andy Mabbett wrote:
> > Perhaps we need an "Announce" mailing list (with follow-ups set to
> > the 'talk' list)?
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/announce/ :)
> (it's a bit unloved though... needs more people volunteering for CWG to
> help)
>
> > I miss the slider for zooming in and out. Having to make
> > multiple clicks (on the "-" icon for zooming out) is an
> > inconvenient kludge.
>
> You can shift-click the +/- to move three levels at once - apparently this
> is a standard Leaflet feature.
>
> (It's interesting to see that Google are now actually second-guessing
> people's map clicks and, under certain circumstances, zooming in more than
> one level on click.)
>
> cheers
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Upcoming-changes-to-OpenStreetMap-org-website-tp5785721p5788165.html
> Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Richard Fairhurst]

Andy Mabbett wrote:
> Perhaps we need an "Announce" mailing list (with follow-ups set to
> the 'talk' list)?

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/announce/ :)
(it's a bit unloved though... needs more people volunteering for CWG to
help)

> I miss the slider for zooming in and out. Having to make 
> multiple clicks (on the "-" icon for zooming out) is an 
> inconvenient kludge.

You can shift-click the +/- to move three levels at once - apparently this
is a standard Leaflet feature.

(It's interesting to see that Google are now actually second-guessing
people's map clicks and, under certain circumstances, zooming in more than
one level on click.)

cheers
Richard





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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Ed Loach]

Andy wrote:

> I miss the slider for zooming in and out. Having to make multiple
> clicks (on the "-" icon for zooming out) is an inconvenient
kludge.

Again, this isn't a new change. You do know about shift-click the +
or - to go three zoom levels a time?

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Andy Mabbett]

On 2 December 2013 14:08, Ed Loach  wrote:

> I think most of the changes are cosmetic and just need a bit
> of getting used to.

I miss the slider for zooming in and out. Having to make multiple
clicks (on the "-" icon for zooming out) is an inconvenient kludge.



-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Andy Mabbett]

On 2 December 2013 13:09, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:

> The website changes have been announced on the talk mailing list
> before it went live

Perhaps we need an "Announce" mailing list (with follow-ups set to the
'talk' list)?

That way, people wanting important news, but not high-volume
discussions, would be catered for.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Lester Caine]

Nick Whitelegg wrote:

 >I make no apologies for the style of messaging. I've been doing it for over 15
 >years and I'm just happy with emphasis where it is shouting out in my head. 
It's
 >a bit like those people who insist in top posting on lists were the written 
rule
 >is not to :)

As an aside it doesn't help that many mail clients, particularly proprietary
ones, insist on assuming that top posting is the way to go.
If you're in a rush it can be a PITA to manually do standard Unix-style
quote-posting, or to fiddle around in the options trying to see if you can set
them up to do it. If mail clients followed the standards less people would top
post! ;-)


Very true ... My old N900 phone worked nicely email wise, the android 
replacement and the tablet has an apology as the sig :)


--
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-
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Lester Caine]

Ed Loach wrote:

When I first edited with Potlatch 2 after the change it took me a
moment to spot that I had to click the work OpenStreetMap rather
than View to get back to the map view.
Just hit that one myself ... and it dropped straight to the map, but I'm sure 
that I used to get a warning that I was leaving the potlatch screen?


OK - It has done it this time, must not have touched anything last time so not 
had 'save' active.


--
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-
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Nick Whitelegg]

>I make no apologies for the style of messaging. I've been doing it for over 15 
>years and I'm just happy with emphasis where it is shouting out in my head. 
>It's 
>a bit like those people who insist in top posting on lists were the written 
>rule 
>is not to :)

As an aside it doesn't help that many mail clients, particularly proprietary 
ones, insist on assuming that top posting is the way to go.
If you're in a rush it can be a PITA to manually do standard Unix-style 
quote-posting, or to fiddle around in the options trying to see if you can set 
them up to do it. If mail clients followed the standards less people would top 
post! ;-)

Nick
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Lester Caine]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:

not you, Lester, I don't think the blog
COULD withstand the RANDOM capitals EVERYWHERE


I make no apologies for the style of messaging. I've been doing it for over 15 
years and I'm just happy with emphasis where it is shouting out in my head. It's 
a bit like those people who insist in top posting on lists were the written rule 
is not to :)


If I was not wasting so much time fixing sites broken by other peoples actions 
then I would have probably managed to get my own services running by now, but 
every time I go back to that code I'm having to start again as something has 
changed :(


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Ed Loach]

Lester:

> MOST other projects maintain the older style of site in parallel
with
> such a
> major overhaul. 

Name one. I can probably name more that don't. Facebook for example
is always adding changes. 

Unless you mean during the test phase, like we had the new site
running on the redesign url with the old one running in parallel
until it was judged a suitable time to switch the new one live.

I'm not saying I'm entirely happy with the new website, but mainly I
think because of how I used to do things. I've not found something
yet that I wanted to do on the new site that I could do on the old
and now can't.

I miss being able to update the page in the URL when looking through
old changesets, but I can't really remember why I ever did that
anyway. Normally I'd look at old changesets having identified them
through the data layer first anyway. I'm sort of glad that I can
still update the page when browsing my old traces to see when I was
last in an area, but even then I usually identify those first via
JOSM (as I upload them as Identifiable - this won't be the case for
all users though).

I'm a little curious why the browse page for the first bus relation
I picked switched to MapQuest open layer when I was browsing the
data layer with Standard background. If it had picked the transport
map for a bus route I'd have thought "Wow!" (and cycle map for cycle
route) but picking MapQuest layer seems more of a quirk. (As an
aside, the first cycle route I tried opened with the transport map
as a background, as did the first boundary relation - but perhaps
I've got something cached here now). Relation browse pages seem slow
to load, probably because of trying to display a map for them (which
does seem to be working better than I remember it doing, but not
sure whether this is related to the latest changes or happened
earlier without me noticing).

I struggled briefly to find the browse page for a way I clicked on
the data layer - there were links to browse pages for nodes and the
changeset. I then realised that I was looking at the browse page
already (when I went to the changeset browse page and back to the
way browse page).

When I first edited with Potlatch 2 after the change it took me a
moment to spot that I had to click the work OpenStreetMap rather
than View to get back to the map view.

Anyway, I think most of the changes are cosmetic and just need a bit
of getting used to.

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Richard Fairhurst]

lsces wrote:
> At least we can still access potlatch 
> in place of Id so the principle has already been adopted here.

That's because iD isn't a replacement for Potlatch, it's a new entry-level
editor to complement the existing intermediate-level one.

Richard





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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Richard Fairhurst]

Philip Barnes wrote:
> Not sure if its been changed recently, but using IE on my corporate
> desktop, 
> there is a close button.

Yes, I submitted a patch and Tom deployed it.

People complaining about lacking communication should IMO volunteer to join
the Communications Working Group (not you, Lester, I don't think the blog
COULD withstand the RANDOM capitals EVERYWHERE). Failing an influx of magic
PR fairies, it's not going to get fixed any other way.

cheers
Richard





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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Lester Caine]

Matthijs Melissen wrote:

The website changes have been announced on the talk mailing list
before it went live:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-November/068555.html

'Nearly ready to roll' is not 'will go live on'!
Had I had a little more notice I would have grabbed an html dump of the old site 
... Can you provide a link to the ANNOUNCEMENT that the new version was going live?



(And yes, before it went live, many people suggested to remove the
Welcome box as well.)
And the response was 'we will not change it!' so why ask for comments when the 
changes were already a done deal?


MOST other projects maintain the older style of site in parallel with such a 
major overhaul. At least then we could access the older version if there WAS a 
problem and there is no real overhead to adding a link to the older code. If the 
change was made without maintaining a version of the old site in parallel then 
we need to change the management process! Some projects/services have even 
rolled back changes where they prove unpopular, or simply failed, so NOT 
providing a legacy link seems dictatorial? At least we can still access potlatch 
in place of Id so the principle has already been adopted here.


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[David Earl]

Excellent, the close has been added. Thank you to whoever did that - 
thanks for listening.


I also noticed on my rail journey yesterday that the GPS also tracks 
location on the main map, which I think is a really nice touch.


David

On 02/12/2013 13:17, Philip Barnes wrote:


Not sure if its been changed recently, but using IE on my corporate 
desktop, there is a close button.



Phil (trigpoint)

--

Sent from my Nokia N9


On 02/12/2013 13:04 Brian Prangle wrote:

Hi Tom

What would I have done differently? I wouldn't be composing emails 
complaining! ;-). The close issue is really not the issue - I don't 
like it but I can live with it. The main issue is I want to feel that 
I'm part of a community- unannounced changes make me feel that I'm 
just another user in corporate land.


Regards

Brian


On 1 December 2013 19:41, Tom Hughes > wrote:


On 01/12/13 19:14, Brian Prangle wrote:

@Rob - I know you communicated this change and asked for
feedback  for
which I'm grateful- I'm just pissed  off that there was no obvious
communication  of the date of implementation - at best that's just
unprofessionally poor communication, at worst it's taking the
community
for granted.


Why does the date of implementation matter?

There was a long discussion with, thanks to Rob, much more
community involvement that any previous changes. Those comments
were discussed and many changes and improvements made and the
discussion had largely come to an end so I did a technical review
of the code and got a few more issues fixed and then merged it.

I would probably have left it longer after the merge before going
live except that yesterday was a a hack day when we had lots of
people in one place and ready to fix issues and such like so it
seemed like a sensible time to do it.

What difference would it have made to you to have been told a
specific date and time? That's not an attempt to be nasty or
anything, it's a genuine question so we can try and do things
better in the future.

If we have announced it would go live at 11am yesterday what
things would you have done differently as a result?


Tom

-- 
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http://compton.nu/





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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Philip Barnes]

Not sure if its been changed recently, but using IE on my corporate desktop, 
there is a close button.

Phil (trigpoint)
--

Sent from my Nokia N9



On 02/12/2013 13:04 Brian Prangle wrote:

Hi Tom


What would I have done differently? I wouldn't be composing emails complaining! 
;-). The close issue is really not the issue - I don't like it but I can live 
with it. The main issue is I want to feel that I'm part of a community- 
unannounced changes make me feel that I'm just another user in corporate land.


Regards


Brian




On 1 December 2013 19:41, Tom Hughes  wrote:

On 01/12/13 19:14, Brian Prangle wrote:


@Rob - I know you communicated this change and asked for feedback  for
which I'm grateful- I'm just pissed  off that there was no obvious
communication  of the date of implementation - at best that's just
unprofessionally poor communication, at worst it's taking the community
for granted.



Why does the date of implementation matter?

There was a long discussion with, thanks to Rob, much more community 
involvement that any previous changes. Those comments were discussed and many 
changes and improvements made and the discussion had largely come to an end so 
I did a technical review of the code and got a few more issues fixed and then 
merged it.

I would probably have left it longer after the merge before going live except 
that yesterday was a a hack day when we had lots of people in one place and 
ready to fix issues and such like so it seemed like a sensible time to do it.

What difference would it have made to you to have been told a specific date and 
time? That's not an attempt to be nasty or anything, it's a genuine question so 
we can try and do things better in the future.

If we have announced it would go live at 11am yesterday what things would you 
have done differently as a result?


Tom

--
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http://compton.nu/




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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Matthijs Melissen]

Hi Brian,

The website changes have been announced on the talk mailing list
before it went live:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-November/068555.html

(And yes, before it went live, many people suggested to remove the
Welcome box as well.)

-- Matthijs

On 2 December 2013 13:04, Brian Prangle  wrote:
> Hi Tom
>
> What would I have done differently? I wouldn't be composing emails
> complaining! ;-). The close issue is really not the issue - I don't like it
> but I can live with it. The main issue is I want to feel that I'm part of a
> community- unannounced changes make me feel that I'm just another user in
> corporate land.
>
> Regards
>
> Brian
>
>
> On 1 December 2013 19:41, Tom Hughes  wrote:
>>
>> On 01/12/13 19:14, Brian Prangle wrote:
>>
>>> @Rob - I know you communicated this change and asked for feedback  for
>>> which I'm grateful- I'm just pissed  off that there was no obvious
>>> communication  of the date of implementation - at best that's just
>>> unprofessionally poor communication, at worst it's taking the community
>>> for granted.
>>
>>
>> Why does the date of implementation matter?
>>
>> There was a long discussion with, thanks to Rob, much more community
>> involvement that any previous changes. Those comments were discussed and
>> many changes and improvements made and the discussion had largely come to an
>> end so I did a technical review of the code and got a few more issues fixed
>> and then merged it.
>>
>> I would probably have left it longer after the merge before going live
>> except that yesterday was a a hack day when we had lots of people in one
>> place and ready to fix issues and such like so it seemed like a sensible
>> time to do it.
>>
>> What difference would it have made to you to have been told a specific
>> date and time? That's not an attempt to be nasty or anything, it's a genuine
>> question so we can try and do things better in the future.
>>
>> If we have announced it would go live at 11am yesterday what things would
>> you have done differently as a result?
>>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> --
>> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
>> http://compton.nu/
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Brian Prangle]

Hi Tom

What would I have done differently? I wouldn't be composing emails
complaining! ;-). The close issue is really not the issue - I don't like it
but I can live with it. The main issue is I want to feel that I'm part of a
community- unannounced changes make me feel that I'm just another user in
corporate land.

Regards

Brian


On 1 December 2013 19:41, Tom Hughes  wrote:

> On 01/12/13 19:14, Brian Prangle wrote:
>
>  @Rob - I know you communicated this change and asked for feedback  for
>> which I'm grateful- I'm just pissed  off that there was no obvious
>> communication  of the date of implementation - at best that's just
>> unprofessionally poor communication, at worst it's taking the community
>> for granted.
>>
>
> Why does the date of implementation matter?
>
> There was a long discussion with, thanks to Rob, much more community
> involvement that any previous changes. Those comments were discussed and
> many changes and improvements made and the discussion had largely come to
> an end so I did a technical review of the code and got a few more issues
> fixed and then merged it.
>
> I would probably have left it longer after the merge before going live
> except that yesterday was a a hack day when we had lots of people in one
> place and ready to fix issues and such like so it seemed like a sensible
> time to do it.
>
> What difference would it have made to you to have been told a specific
> date and time? That's not an attempt to be nasty or anything, it's a
> genuine question so we can try and do things better in the future.
>
> If we have announced it would go live at 11am yesterday what things would
> you have done differently as a result?
>
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://compton.nu/
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Oliver Jowett]

On 1 December 2013 20:46, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 01.12.2013 21:32, Oliver Jowett wrote:
> > The barrier to entry in setting that up is a bit high for me
> > unfortunately (unless you have a script already prepared?)
>
> This'll do:
>

Works like a charm! Thanks :)

Oliver
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 01.12.2013 21:32, Oliver Jowett wrote:
> The barrier to entry in setting that up is a bit high for me
> unfortunately (unless you have a script already prepared?)

This'll do:

// ==UserScript==
// @name Remove OSM welcome box
// @include  http://www.openstreetmap.org/*
// ==/UserScript==

var welcome = $("div.welcome");
if (welcome) welcome.remove ();

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Oliver Jowett]

On 1 December 2013 20:19, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 01.12.2013 21:00, Oliver Jowett wrote:
> > What's the workaround for users that do not wish to retain cookies?
>
> GreaseMonkey could be an option.
>

The barrier to entry in setting that up is a bit high for me unfortunately
(unless you have a script already prepared?)

Richard's pull request sounds like it'll work for me (I don't mind clicking
a close box each time), so +1 for that.

Oliver
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 01.12.2013 21:00, Oliver Jowett wrote:
> What's the workaround for users that do not wish to retain cookies?

GreaseMonkey could be an option.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Rob Nickerson]

On 1 December 2013 19:41, Tom Hughes  wrote:

> On 01/12/13 19:14, Brian Prangle wrote:
>
>  @Rob - I know you communicated this change and asked for feedback  for
>> which I'm grateful- I'm just pissed  off that there was no obvious
>> communication  of the date of implementation - at best that's just
>> unprofessionally poor communication, at worst it's taking the community
>> for granted.
>>
>
> Why does the date of implementation matter?
> 
> Tom
>

Hi Brian,

I would have liked to see the upcoming changes communicated on both the
"announce" mailing list and the OSM blog (it may have helped attract new
people to the recent hack day that I was unaware of). There was a great
comment on the github page where someone noted that they were made aware of
the upcoming change from reading my post to the State of the Map blog, read
on the Community Blogs page (blogs.openstreetmap.org) run by Shaun, which
ironically is now a lot harder to find on the new OSM page and neither are
run by the Communications Working Group.

Anyway, I do have to agree with Tom in that I'm not sure why knowledge of
the exact date would have helped. Perhaps a late November/early December
date could have been announced.

Best,
Rob
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Oliver Jowett]

On 1 December 2013 19:03, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> For most users, you just need to log-in and tick the "always stay logged
> in" button and the welcome box will go. As an often requested feature I am
> sure that someone will write the required code to add a close button (or my
> preference - an up/down arrow to roll it up/down as required), but there
> will also need to be a way to bring it back.
>

What's the workaround for users that do not wish to retain cookies?

Oliver
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Jonathan]

I agree Tom, I don't think the end result would have been different. 
Personally I'm not bothered but I can see why some may want to "know" 
when things are about to change.


Is there some place we weren't looking that lists upcoming changes and 
time scales?


Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 01/12/2013 19:41, Tom Hughes wrote:

On 01/12/13 19:14, Brian Prangle wrote:


@Rob - I know you communicated this change and asked for feedback  for
which I'm grateful- I'm just pissed  off that there was no obvious
communication  of the date of implementation - at best that's just
unprofessionally poor communication, at worst it's taking the community
for granted.


Why does the date of implementation matter?

There was a long discussion with, thanks to Rob, much more community 
involvement that any previous changes. Those comments were discussed 
and many changes and improvements made and the discussion had largely 
come to an end so I did a technical review of the code and got a few 
more issues fixed and then merged it.


I would probably have left it longer after the merge before going live 
except that yesterday was a a hack day when we had lots of people in 
one place and ready to fix issues and such like so it seemed like a 
sensible time to do it.


What difference would it have made to you to have been told a specific 
date and time? That's not an attempt to be nasty or anything, it's a 
genuine question so we can try and do things better in the future.


If we have announced it would go live at 11am yesterday what things 
would you have done differently as a result?


Tom




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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Tom Hughes]

On 01/12/13 19:14, Brian Prangle wrote:


@Rob - I know you communicated this change and asked for feedback  for
which I'm grateful- I'm just pissed  off that there was no obvious
communication  of the date of implementation - at best that's just
unprofessionally poor communication, at worst it's taking the community
for granted.


Why does the date of implementation matter?

There was a long discussion with, thanks to Rob, much more community 
involvement that any previous changes. Those comments were discussed and 
many changes and improvements made and the discussion had largely come 
to an end so I did a technical review of the code and got a few more 
issues fixed and then merged it.


I would probably have left it longer after the merge before going live 
except that yesterday was a a hack day when we had lots of people in one 
place and ready to fix issues and such like so it seemed like a sensible 
time to do it.


What difference would it have made to you to have been told a specific 
date and time? That's not an attempt to be nasty or anything, it's a 
genuine question so we can try and do things better in the future.


If we have announced it would go live at 11am yesterday what things 
would you have done differently as a result?


Tom

--
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Brian Prangle]

So somehow independently of this mailing list I have to know to login to
remove this box? Where is this communicated on the website- which is most
people's first experience of OSM? A close button is so much more efficient!

@Rob - I know you communicated this change and asked for feedback  for
which I'm grateful- I'm just pissed  off that there was no obvious
communication  of the date of implementation - at best that's just
unprofessionally poor communication, at worst it's taking the community for
granted.

Regards

Brian


On 1 December 2013 19:03, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> Brian,
>
> (I tried my best to communicate this change - oh, and it was also at SOTM
> 2013 :-P )
>
> I agree that these changes should be communicated better which is exactly
> why I posted news of this change to both the talk and talk-gb mailing list
> a few weeks ago. I was only aware of it's imminent go-live the day before
> (when I spotted it was listed as "merged", awaiting go live on the github
> pages). Sorry I didn't post here, but the feedback you guys provided had
> gone quiet.
>
> For most users, you just need to log-in and tick the "always stay logged
> in" button and the welcome box will go. As an often requested feature I am
> sure that someone will write the required code to add a close button (or my
> preference - an up/down arrow to roll it up/down as required), but there
> will also need to be a way to bring it back.
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
> p.s. I have nothing to do this the redesign other than trying to
> communicate it to you, so please don't shoot the messenger.
>
>
> On 1 December 2013 18:45, Brian Prangle  wrote:
>
>> +1 for a close button.  That box just screams at me to be closed - my
>> brain wants to see what's behind it!  Not sure what communication went out
>> about this notifying the community of the date of implementation - I
>> certainly wasn't aware of anything. I saw lots of discussion about the
>> design but the first I knew about implementation was when I saw it live.
>> Surely we can do better than this?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>> On 1 December 2013 18:03, ael  wrote:
>>
>>> >
>>> > In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome
>>> text,
>>> > it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for
>>> non
>>>
>>>
>>> Now it has gone live, I have to say that it is a disaster and likely
>>> to turn me and others from OSM. We take all this trouble to create
>>> a beautiful and useful map and it is ruined by this stupid permanent
>>> window obscuring a large part of the map on small screen devices.
>>>
>>> It is a waste of time to login when I am not actively mapping and
>>> seriously unfriendly. Not to mention the bother of looking up my
>>> password (which is quite strong) each time.
>>>
>>> Now what was the fork of OSM called? Informationhighway?
>>>
>>> ael
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Rob Nickerson]

Brian,

(I tried my best to communicate this change - oh, and it was also at SOTM
2013 :-P )

I agree that these changes should be communicated better which is exactly
why I posted news of this change to both the talk and talk-gb mailing list
a few weeks ago. I was only aware of it's imminent go-live the day before
(when I spotted it was listed as "merged", awaiting go live on the github
pages). Sorry I didn't post here, but the feedback you guys provided had
gone quiet.

For most users, you just need to log-in and tick the "always stay logged
in" button and the welcome box will go. As an often requested feature I am
sure that someone will write the required code to add a close button (or my
preference - an up/down arrow to roll it up/down as required), but there
will also need to be a way to bring it back.

Regards,
Rob

p.s. I have nothing to do this the redesign other than trying to
communicate it to you, so please don't shoot the messenger.


On 1 December 2013 18:45, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> +1 for a close button.  That box just screams at me to be closed - my
> brain wants to see what's behind it!  Not sure what communication went out
> about this notifying the community of the date of implementation - I
> certainly wasn't aware of anything. I saw lots of discussion about the
> design but the first I knew about implementation was when I saw it live.
> Surely we can do better than this?
>
> Regards
>
> Brian
>
>
> On 1 December 2013 18:03, ael  wrote:
>
>> >
>> > In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome
>> text,
>> > it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for
>> non
>>
>>
>> Now it has gone live, I have to say that it is a disaster and likely
>> to turn me and others from OSM. We take all this trouble to create
>> a beautiful and useful map and it is ruined by this stupid permanent
>> window obscuring a large part of the map on small screen devices.
>>
>> It is a waste of time to login when I am not actively mapping and
>> seriously unfriendly. Not to mention the bother of looking up my
>> password (which is quite strong) each time.
>>
>> Now what was the fork of OSM called? Informationhighway?
>>
>> ael
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Jonathan]

Or at the very least choose one spelling and stick with it!

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 01/12/2013 18:51, Richard Mann wrote:

At least they could have the grace to spell licence correctly.


On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Brian Prangle > wrote:


+1 for a close button.  That box just screams at me to be closed -
my brain wants to see what's behind it!  Not sure what
communication went out about this notifying the community of the
date of implementation - I certainly wasn't aware of anything. I
saw lots of discussion about the design but the first I knew about
implementation was when I saw it live. Surely we can do better
than this?

Regards

Brian


On 1 December 2013 18:03, ael mailto:law_ence@ntlworld.com>> wrote:

>
> In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the
welcome text,
> it does disappear for logged in users and small screen
devices. As for non


Now it has gone live, I have to say that it is a disaster and
likely
to turn me and others from OSM. We take all this trouble to create
a beautiful and useful map and it is ruined by this stupid
permanent
window obscuring a large part of the map on small screen devices.

It is a waste of time to login when I am not actively mapping and
seriously unfriendly. Not to mention the bother of looking up my
password (which is quite strong) each time.

Now what was the fork of OSM called? Informationhighway?

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Richard Mann]

At least they could have the grace to spell licence correctly.


On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> +1 for a close button.  That box just screams at me to be closed - my
> brain wants to see what's behind it!  Not sure what communication went out
> about this notifying the community of the date of implementation - I
> certainly wasn't aware of anything. I saw lots of discussion about the
> design but the first I knew about implementation was when I saw it live.
> Surely we can do better than this?
>
> Regards
>
> Brian
>
>
> On 1 December 2013 18:03, ael  wrote:
>
>> >
>> > In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome
>> text,
>> > it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for
>> non
>>
>>
>> Now it has gone live, I have to say that it is a disaster and likely
>> to turn me and others from OSM. We take all this trouble to create
>> a beautiful and useful map and it is ruined by this stupid permanent
>> window obscuring a large part of the map on small screen devices.
>>
>> It is a waste of time to login when I am not actively mapping and
>> seriously unfriendly. Not to mention the bother of looking up my
>> password (which is quite strong) each time.
>>
>> Now what was the fork of OSM called? Informationhighway?
>>
>> ael
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Jonathan]

But Brian, why aren't you logged in? It's not there then.

Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 01/12/2013 18:45, Brian Prangle wrote:
+1 for a close button.  That box just screams at me to be closed - my 
brain wants to see what's behind it!  Not sure what communication went 
out about this notifying the community of the date of implementation - 
I certainly wasn't aware of anything. I saw lots of discussion about 
the design but the first I knew about implementation was when I saw it 
live. Surely we can do better than this?


Regards

Brian


On 1 December 2013 18:03, ael > wrote:


>
> In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the
welcome text,
> it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices.
As for non


Now it has gone live, I have to say that it is a disaster and likely
to turn me and others from OSM. We take all this trouble to create
a beautiful and useful map and it is ruined by this stupid permanent
window obscuring a large part of the map on small screen devices.

It is a waste of time to login when I am not actively mapping and
seriously unfriendly. Not to mention the bother of looking up my
password (which is quite strong) each time.

Now what was the fork of OSM called? Informationhighway?

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Jonathan]

I think you've just summed up the real power of Open Data, specifically 
Open Map Data.  If you don't like how it is rendered then choose another 
renderer or render the data yourself.


So cool! Everyone's happy.  Try viewing Google's or Microsoft's data 
some other way if you don't like their rendering!


Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 01/12/2013 18:03, ael wrote:

In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome text,
it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for non


Now it has gone live, I have to say that it is a disaster and likely
to turn me and others from OSM. We take all this trouble to create
a beautiful and useful map and it is ruined by this stupid permanent
window obscuring a large part of the map on small screen devices.

It is a waste of time to login when I am not actively mapping and
seriously unfriendly. Not to mention the bother of looking up my
password (which is quite strong) each time.

Now what was the fork of OSM called? Informationhighway?

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Brian Prangle]

+1 for a close button.  That box just screams at me to be closed - my brain
wants to see what's behind it!  Not sure what communication went out about
this notifying the community of the date of implementation - I certainly
wasn't aware of anything. I saw lots of discussion about the design but the
first I knew about implementation was when I saw it live. Surely we can do
better than this?

Regards

Brian


On 1 December 2013 18:03, ael  wrote:

> >
> > In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome text,
> > it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for
> non
>
>
> Now it has gone live, I have to say that it is a disaster and likely
> to turn me and others from OSM. We take all this trouble to create
> a beautiful and useful map and it is ruined by this stupid permanent
> window obscuring a large part of the map on small screen devices.
>
> It is a waste of time to login when I am not actively mapping and
> seriously unfriendly. Not to mention the bother of looking up my
> password (which is quite strong) each time.
>
> Now what was the fork of OSM called? Informationhighway?
>
> ael
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Filip Chirita Rares Cristian]

Just went on the mobile website from my Nexus phone and it looks much
better than before, really can't see a problem with the mobile version of
the new osm. At the same time, you can never, ever, please everybody...
Also, I don't think it wise to talk about "turning others away" when not
many others have actually expressed concerns. I say, let's let the time
tell, based on the website stats in a month or so.

Chris F.
On 1 Dec 2013 18:04, "ael"  wrote:

> >
> > In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome text,
> > it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for
> non
>
>
> Now it has gone live, I have to say that it is a disaster and likely
> to turn me and others from OSM. We take all this trouble to create
> a beautiful and useful map and it is ruined by this stupid permanent
> window obscuring a large part of the map on small screen devices.
>
> It is a waste of time to login when I am not actively mapping and
> seriously unfriendly. Not to mention the bother of looking up my
> password (which is quite strong) each time.
>
> Now what was the fork of OSM called? Informationhighway?
>
> ael
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[ael]

> 
> In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome text,
> it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for non


Now it has gone live, I have to say that it is a disaster and likely
to turn me and others from OSM. We take all this trouble to create
a beautiful and useful map and it is ruined by this stupid permanent
window obscuring a large part of the map on small screen devices.

It is a waste of time to login when I am not actively mapping and
seriously unfriendly. Not to mention the bother of looking up my
password (which is quite strong) each time.

Now what was the fork of OSM called? Informationhighway?

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Andy Street]

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 21:42:02 +
Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> On 17 November 2013 21:14, Oliver Jowett 
> wrote:
> 
> > Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed
> > changes" really "use something else then"?
>
> Not at all. I am trying to help you by communicating the fact that
> this change is upcoming, and I am collating responses and feeding
> them back to John.

Duly noted, I'm not trying to shoot the messenger but I'll add my 2p.

> I simply noted that this request has been made
> previously and it was rejected on the basis that the OSM.org
> website's primary focus is to spread the message of how OSM is
> different.

I can understand the reasoning for putting the message there in the
first place but the apparent resistance to allowing it to be dismissed
once it has been acknowledged strikes me as rather perverse. It is
possible that such a design may lead to an increase in account creation
but if the user's motivation is something other than editing the map
then I fail to see how this helps the project.

> I will feed these comments back, and ask for the issue to be
> reconsidered, but please this is by no means a guarantee that thing
> will be changed.

Of course it would be preferable to do the right thing by default but
it is hardly the end of the world if the welcome box is not closable.
Overall I think the new design is an improvement over the current
site and I can easily nuke the welcome box via userContent.css should
the need arise. :)

-- 
Regards,

Andy Street

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Filip Chirita Rares Cristian]

On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Steve Doerr wrote:

>  On the contrary, I use openstreetmap.org all the time. Whenever I
> encounter a place I'm unfamiliar with, I look it up on openstreetmap.org.
> I almost never look at renderings of OSM data through another web-site. In
> Facebook postings and emails, where I want to link to a map it's invariably
> to openstreetmap.org that I link. I personally don't see openstreetmap.orgas 
> a contributor-oriented web site. I see it as a showcase to the world -
> though of course it must always provide me with a pathway to edit the
> database.
>
> Steve
>
>
+1, same here. It's as much about adding data to the map as it is making
other people aware of the existance of OSM. Whenever I see a map with
information in it from my home country, it's always from Google. By showing
people that you can pull data from OSM and showing them that there are
other map services out there than the big 2 (Goog and Bing), you might
bring other people into the community.

I understand why the front page is redisned as it is, and I think the info
blurb isn't too big, at least for my screen, just wanted to express here
why people should know that OSM is also a map, not just a Database.

-- 
Life is not the amount of times you breathe, is the moments that take your
breath away.

To all things comes an end. And to all things comes a beginning.

Cred in inspirat, nu in expirat. in vise, nu in somn. In trait, nu in
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Jonathan]

Well yes and that would fall under the data side, but are traces really 
that important now? They have some uses but the bulk of sources now and 
going forward are from other methods?


Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 18/11/2013 10:16, SomeoneElse wrote:

Jonathan wrote:


I can almost see OSM splitting into two halves, one half 
concentrating on the human facing side of OSM, such as map rendering, 
interfacing with users and building user apps and features, and the 
other half concentrating on the data side, such as editing, data 
structure, integrity, imports and exports?


Presumably someone still needs to go out with a GPS and collect the 
data :)


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[SomeoneElse]

Jonathan wrote:


I can almost see OSM splitting into two halves, one half concentrating 
on the human facing side of OSM, such as map rendering, interfacing 
with users and building user apps and features, and the other half 
concentrating on the data side, such as editing, data structure, 
integrity, imports and exports?


Presumably someone still needs to go out with a GPS and collect the data :)

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Jonathan]

Yes David, I think you're right.  Those are some very good points which 
I think needs to be address by us.


I can almost see OSM splitting into two halves, one half concentrating 
on the human facing side of OSM, such as map rendering, interfacing with 
users and building user apps and features, and the other half 
concentrating on the data side, such as editing, data structure, 
integrity, imports and exports?


Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 18/11/2013 00:45, David Woolley wrote:

On 17/11/13 21:47, Jonathan wrote:



I don't believe OSM is about rendering maps, isn't it about creating a
cartographic database?


That's not going to be true of the new mappers you are trying to 
encourage.  I suspect you are nearing saturation for the people who 
actually appreciate the underlying database and are now competing with 
Google mappers.  To the extent the data is not being used for end user 
maps, or only for ones for which you have to pay, a lot of people will 
see no point in contributing.  To the extent that it used in 
customised rendering, you should be getting those sites to provide 
access to the editing tools, so that mappers can edit on the sites 
they are using for working maps.





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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Oliver Jowett]

On 17 November 2013 21:42, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

>
> p.s. This redesign is a proposal from John of the MapBox team. It will
> ultimately be accepted or rejected by the OSM Foundation/working groups.
> Anyone can propose changes, so if you have the coding skills to make this
> change then feel free to do it and add a "pull request" on github.
>

Oof, web development is really not my favorite activity :(

I don't have much more to say here and I don't really want to get into a
big discussion about the pros and cons of what osm.org should show - I'll
just limit myself to reiterating that a close button on that bit of the new
design would be a great idea, even if I have to hit it every time I visit :)

Oliver
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Steve Doerr]

On the contrary, I use openstreetmap.org all the time. Whenever I 
encounter a place I'm unfamiliar with, I look it up on 
openstreetmap.org. I almost never look at renderings of OSM data through 
another web-site. In Facebook postings and emails, where I want to link 
to a map it's invariably to openstreetmap.org that I link. I personally 
don't see openstreetmap.org as a contributor-oriented web site. I see it 
as a showcase to the world - though of course it must always provide me 
with a pathway to edit the database.


Steve

On 17/11/2013 21:47, Jonathan wrote:
I think the point Rob was making is that OpenStreetMap.org can't be 
all things to all men and neither should it attempt to be.  There are 
many many instances of OSM map data rendered in ways that appeal to 
various users, the OpenStreetMap.org page should show a generic map 
use with information and links to encourage new users and new 
contributors.  As a regular contributor I rarely go to 
OpenStreetMap.org, I approach the map data from other more specialised 
routes depending on my needs.


I feel that the new layout is an improvement on the current and pretty 
well gets the balance right.


Personally speaking I don't feel it would be a terrible idea to ditch 
the OpenStreetMap.org map and just have this page as the homepage: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_OpenStreetMap


I don't believe OSM is about rendering maps, isn't it about creating a 
cartographic database?


Jonathan
http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 17/11/2013 21:14, Oliver Jowett wrote:
On 17 November 2013 15:06, Rob Nickerson > wrote:



To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box
floating around all the time (I am only logged in when I am
about to edit).

Oliver


You could tick the stay logged in button,


I don't retain cookies between browser sessions.

or alternatively if you want a full screen map there are plenty
of sites that provide alternate views of OSM data. One such full
screen example is at:


http://faffy.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=4&lat=47.63024&lon=1.75347&layers=B


Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed 
changes" really "use something else then"?


Oliver



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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Lester Caine]

Jonathan wrote:

Personally speaking I don't feel it would be a terrible idea to ditch the
OpenStreetMap.org map and just have this page as the homepage:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_OpenStreetMap

I don't believe OSM is about rendering maps, isn't it about creating a
cartographic database?


There is basically no reason that we can't simply have
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org giving direct access to the documentation
and
http://map.openstreetmap.org giving clean access to the same map layers that the 
editor provides as a background.


Then leave http://openstreetmap.org to proide what ever people want from that 
view ...


Yes other versions of the map exist and can be used, but this is the definative 
map, and changes made here are reflected promptly while some other maps can be 
weeks behind ... I can post changes and see them rendered fairly promptly. But 
as yet there is no tidy method of reflecting those changes into my own rendering 
... which is another problem here.


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Jonathan]

Just read this after sending my reply to Oliver and I think you're 
right, also think the http://openstreetmap.de/ or even 
http://openstreetmap.us/ are right also.


If we are to render a version of OSM then it should just be seen as a 
"reference implementation" of the DB and not some holy grail.


Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 17/11/2013 21:42, Rob Nickerson wrote:
On 17 November 2013 21:14, Oliver Jowett > wrote:


Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed
changes" really "use something else then"?

Oliver


Not at all. I am trying to help you by communicating the fact that 
this change is upcoming, and I am collating responses and feeding them 
back to John. I simply noted that this request has been made 
previously and it was rejected on the basis that the OSM.org website's 
primary focus is to spread the message of how OSM is different. There 
are some people within the community that think we should not provide 
a map on the home screen and instead do something like 
http://openstreetmap.de/ or even http://openstreetmap.us/


I will feed these comments back, and ask for the issue to be 
reconsidered, but please this is by no means a guarantee that thing 
will be changed.


Regards,
Rob

p.s. This redesign is a proposal from John of the MapBox team. It will 
ultimately be accepted or rejected by the OSM Foundation/working 
groups. Anyone can propose changes, so if you have the coding skills 
to make this change then feel free to do it and add a "pull request" 
on github.





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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Jonathan]

I think the point Rob was making is that OpenStreetMap.org can't be all 
things to all men and neither should it attempt to be.  There are many 
many instances of OSM map data rendered in ways that appeal to various 
users, the OpenStreetMap.org page should show a generic map use with 
information and links to encourage new users and new contributors.  As a 
regular contributor I rarely go to OpenStreetMap.org, I approach the map 
data from other more specialised routes depending on my needs.


I feel that the new layout is an improvement on the current and pretty 
well gets the balance right.


Personally speaking I don't feel it would be a terrible idea to ditch 
the OpenStreetMap.org map and just have this page as the homepage:  
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_OpenStreetMap


I don't believe OSM is about rendering maps, isn't it about creating a 
cartographic database?


Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 17/11/2013 21:14, Oliver Jowett wrote:
On 17 November 2013 15:06, Rob Nickerson > wrote:



To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating
around all the time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).

Oliver


You could tick the stay logged in button,


I don't retain cookies between browser sessions.

or alternatively if you want a full screen map there are plenty of
sites that provide alternate views of OSM data. One such full
screen example is at:


http://faffy.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=4&lat=47.63024&lon=1.75347&layers=B


Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed 
changes" really "use something else then"?


Oliver



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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Rob Nickerson]

On 17 November 2013 21:14, Oliver Jowett  wrote:

> Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed changes"
> really "use something else then"?
>
> Oliver
>
>
Not at all. I am trying to help you by communicating the fact that this
change is upcoming, and I am collating responses and feeding them back to
John. I simply noted that this request has been made previously and it was
rejected on the basis that the OSM.org website's primary focus is to spread
the message of how OSM is different. There are some people within the
community that think we should not provide a map on the home screen and
instead do something like http://openstreetmap.de/ or even
http://openstreetmap.us/

I will feed these comments back, and ask for the issue to be reconsidered,
but please this is by no means a guarantee that thing will be changed.

Regards,
Rob

p.s. This redesign is a proposal from John of the MapBox team. It will
ultimately be accepted or rejected by the OSM Foundation/working groups.
Anyone can propose changes, so if you have the coding skills to make this
change then feel free to do it and add a "pull request" on github.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Oliver Jowett]

On 17 November 2013 15:06, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

>
>> To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all
>> the time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).
>>
>> Oliver
>>
>>
> You could tick the stay logged in button,
>

I don't retain cookies between browser sessions.


> or alternatively if you want a full screen map there are plenty of sites
> that provide alternate views of OSM data. One such full screen example is
> at:
>
>
> http://faffy.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=4&lat=47.63024&lon=1.75347&layers=B
>

Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed changes"
really "use something else then"?

Oliver
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Rob Nickerson]

>
>
> To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all
> the time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).
>
> Oliver
>
>
You could tick the stay logged in button, or alternatively if you want a
full screen map there are plenty of sites that provide alternate views of
OSM data. One such full screen example is at:

http://faffy.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=4&lat=47.63024&lon=1.75347&layers=B

Regards,
Rob
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Lester Caine]

Oliver Jowett wrote:

The point is that "just using the map" is not our target audience.

As has been said many times, we are not trying to be an end user mapping
site that offers a Google Maps alternative for the masses.

Our target audience is people that want to signup and contribute.

I contribute when I see problems with the map in areas I am familiar with.

To see the problems, I have to be using the map in the first place.

To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all the
time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).


I'd second that ( although this should probably be on the main talk list )

I CONTRIBUTE to mapping to provide correct information to my client base and I 
encourage them to use OSM instead of Google because we do provide the correct 
details, and in many cases the only detail in an area. We need a clean user 
interface which has easy access to edit functions, although I'm tending towards 
off-line editing as certainly I would NOT recommend iD even to new users, so 
josm currently seems the only option anyway going forward!


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Oliver Jowett]

On 17 November 2013 00:10, Tom Hughes  wrote:

>
> The point is that "just using the map" is not our target audience.
>
> As has been said many times, we are not trying to be an end user mapping
> site that offers a Google Maps alternative for the masses.
>
> Our target audience is people that want to signup and contribute.


I contribute when I see problems with the map in areas I am familiar with.

To see the problems, I have to be using the map in the first place.

To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all
the time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).

Oliver
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Tom Hughes]

On 16/11/13 23:19, ael wrote:


On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 09:45:57PM +, Rob Nickerson wrote:


In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome text,
it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for non
logged in users this request has been raised already. I will mention that
it has been brought up again, but I wouldn't hold out much hope for this
one to change. The previous response was that it "provides a nice impetus
to create an account. :)"


That's just silly - the previous response. Why should one waste time
logging in even if already a contributor when just wanting to *use* the
map?


The point is that "just using the map" is not our target audience.

As has been said many times, we are not trying to be an end user mapping 
site that offers a Google Maps alternative for the masses.


Our target audience is people that want to signup and contribute.

Tom

--
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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Tom Hughes]

On 16/11/13 19:01, Neil Pilgrim wrote:


c) Another thing is that the Edit box requires log-in, so... is there
a reason that the 'log in' isn't the main route to editing, or should
it really be greyed out until the user is logged-in (with a
hover-tip)? I suppose this is about making people aware that it can be
edited (online)?


There's no change in behaviour here is there? The edit link presumably 
still takes you to the login screen if you're note already logged in 
just as it does now.


Surely that is more user friendly than disabling it and making people 
guess that they need to login to enable it?


In any case, if it isn't a regression then it's out of scope as a bug 
report against the redesign.


Tom

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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[ael]

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 09:45:57PM +, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> 
> In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome text,
> it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for non
> logged in users this request has been raised already. I will mention that
> it has been brought up again, but I wouldn't hold out much hope for this
> one to change. The previous response was that it "provides a nice impetus
> to create an account. :)"

That's just silly - the previous response. Why should one waste time
logging in even if already a contributor when just wanting to *use* the
map? 

Potential contributors will want to be convinced that the map is useful
before being motivated to join.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Jonathan]

The Welcome box doesn't linger once you've logged in, so in a way having 
it in the way may encourage some to join and login?


Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 16/11/2013 18:01, ael wrote:

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 01:36:40PM +, David Earl wrote:

On 15/11/2013 20:15, Rob Nickerson wrote:

(The aim of this email is to provide prior knowledge of an upcoming change to 
the
OSM website and to give you an opportunity to provide constructive feedback)


Would it be possible to have a dismiss button on the Welcome to
OpenStreetMap box (including Learn More and Sign Up, but not
including search)? Just like the x on the panels that replace it,
e.g. when you search. Perhaps if you dismiss it it could join the
green buttons as 'Welcome' to get it back.

On iPad and netbooks, this box takes up a substantial part of the
screen obscuring the map. Less of a problem on larger screens, but
still intrusive if you want to see the whole map. Clearly it is a
very important part of the page when the whole point is to promote
OSM, but being able to make it go away would be helpful when you're
just trying to make use of the map.

+1

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Nick Allen]

+2

Regards

Nick

On 16/11/13 18:01, ael wrote:

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 01:36:40PM +, David Earl wrote:

On 15/11/2013 20:15, Rob Nickerson wrote:

(The aim of this email is to provide prior knowledge of an upcoming change to 
the
OSM website and to give you an opportunity to provide constructive feedback)


Would it be possible to have a dismiss button on the Welcome to
OpenStreetMap box (including Learn More and Sign Up, but not
including search)? Just like the x on the panels that replace it,
e.g. when you search. Perhaps if you dismiss it it could join the
green buttons as 'Welcome' to get it back.

On iPad and netbooks, this box takes up a substantial part of the
screen obscuring the map. Less of a problem on larger screens, but
still intrusive if you want to see the whole map. Clearly it is a
very important part of the page when the whole point is to promote
OSM, but being able to make it go away would be helpful when you're
just trying to make use of the map.

+1

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[Neil Pilgrim]

I wondered when the SOTM-suggested redesign would surface :)

For me (regarding the redesigned version):
- The mobile website looks better (menus hidden in the typical menu
section), though the top "title" bar could be shrunk a little IMO.
- The regular website is better on my little netbook screen
a) the wider/shorter search/welcome piece is an improvement, even if
simply due to the absence of a vertical scroll bar due to the height
of the previous left-hand sidebar.
b) I would second (third?) the comment re the ability to 'X' or drop
down/up the welcome piece, though when to have it (re)display by
default (new window/tab, new session, cookie/duration) isn't clear.
c) Another thing is that the Edit box requires log-in, so... is there
a reason that the 'log in' isn't the main route to editing, or should
it really be greyed out until the user is logged-in (with a
hover-tip)? I suppose this is about making people aware that it can be
edited (online)?
d) Lastly, the same point applies as per the mobile website, that the
top white bar is higher/deeper now; it may be more aesthetically
pleasing, but for those of us with tiny screens it's a little
frustrating?

Do we need to forward our comments to the talk list, or is there some
other official channel to make comments to?

--
Neil


On 16 November 2013 18:01, ael  wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 01:36:40PM +, David Earl wrote:
>> On 15/11/2013 20:15, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>> >(The aim of this email is to provide prior knowledge of an upcoming change 
>> >to the
>> >OSM website and to give you an opportunity to provide constructive feedback)
>>
>>
>> Would it be possible to have a dismiss button on the Welcome to
>> OpenStreetMap box (including Learn More and Sign Up, but not
>> including search)? Just like the x on the panels that replace it,
>> e.g. when you search. Perhaps if you dismiss it it could join the
>> green buttons as 'Welcome' to get it back.
>>
>> On iPad and netbooks, this box takes up a substantial part of the
>> screen obscuring the map. Less of a problem on larger screens, but
>> still intrusive if you want to see the whole map. Clearly it is a
>> very important part of the page when the whole point is to promote
>> OSM, but being able to make it go away would be helpful when you're
>> just trying to make use of the map.
>
> +1
>
> ael
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[ael]

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 01:36:40PM +, David Earl wrote:
> On 15/11/2013 20:15, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> >(The aim of this email is to provide prior knowledge of an upcoming change 
> >to the
> >OSM website and to give you an opportunity to provide constructive feedback)
> 
> 
> Would it be possible to have a dismiss button on the Welcome to
> OpenStreetMap box (including Learn More and Sign Up, but not
> including search)? Just like the x on the panels that replace it,
> e.g. when you search. Perhaps if you dismiss it it could join the
> green buttons as 'Welcome' to get it back.
> 
> On iPad and netbooks, this box takes up a substantial part of the
> screen obscuring the map. Less of a problem on larger screens, but
> still intrusive if you want to see the whole map. Clearly it is a
> very important part of the page when the whole point is to promote
> OSM, but being able to make it go away would be helpful when you're
> just trying to make use of the map.

+1

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[David Earl]

On 15/11/2013 20:15, Rob Nickerson wrote:

(The aim of this email is to provide prior knowledge of an upcoming change to 
the
OSM website and to give you an opportunity to provide constructive feedback)


One other thing... notes are really helpful, and not immediately new 
though they were introduced on the way to these changes. I have a feed 
on the whole of my area, but in dealing with these I've seen two 
problems which I imagine others have too...


1. Some people think they are adding a personal note, not making 
feedback. (this is kind of analogous to the pervasive problem with 
Potlatch earlier on where people didn't realise they were live editing 
the database).


I think this would largely go away if the button (on hover, layer toggle 
caption, and the headline in the new panel) were labelled 'Feedback' or 
'Report a problem'


2. Many reports are of 'missing' things, which are already on the map. 
Many times they haven't zoomed in enough to see the feature (e.g. a 
'missing' pub); others it really is missing in the rendering, but not in 
the data because of the way the renderer randomly drops POIs and 
captions if they clash with others. Latter is beyond scope of this, but 
could the text in the salmon box ask them to please zoom in to maximum 
to make sure it isn't already there?


David




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Re: [Talk-GB] Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

[David Earl]

On 15/11/2013 20:15, Rob Nickerson wrote:

(The aim of this email is to provide prior knowledge of an upcoming change to 
the
OSM website and to give you an opportunity to provide constructive feedback)


I very much like the fact it is responsive on small screens.

Would it be possible to have a dismiss button on the Welcome to 
OpenStreetMap box (including Learn More and Sign Up, but not including 
search)? Just like the x on the panels that replace it, e.g. when you 
search. Perhaps if you dismiss it it could join the green buttons as 
'Welcome' to get it back.


On iPad and netbooks, this box takes up a substantial part of the screen 
obscuring the map. Less of a problem on larger screens, but still 
intrusive if you want to see the whole map. Clearly it is a very 
important part of the page when the whole point is to promote OSM, but 
being able to make it go away would be helpful when you're just trying 
to make use of the map.


Why do some of the links in the header have boxes round them and others 
don't?


David



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