Re: [Talk-us] Removing tiger:* tags
On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 15:00 -0400, Anthony wrote: Basically, the only tag I can imagine worth keeping would be the name_type, name_base, name_* ones, and those should be removed from the tiger:* namespace. But really before that can be done a standard should be decided on about how to store the names. Once that is done, I'll gladly produce a script to re-add all the name_base/name_types that I've deleted. Good luck on this idea. This is the fourth time that it has been brought up since I've been on this mailing list (less than a year). There is much discussion but no decision is made. The topic gets dropped, then the topic comes up a few months later. - Val - ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
Salt Lake City street names are a bit of a mess. They are often several redundant names: name = South 900 East name_1 = 900 East name_2 = South 900 East (an extra space) and sometimes: name_3 = 9th East I would like to write a bot (or semi-automated plugin for JOSM) to clean up Sale Lake City Street Names so that they follow the following convention: 1) The name tag shall include the primary street name as signed, _without_ the directional prefix, but with the direction (really part of the street name and not a suffix) spelled out, for example 900 East. The street signs do not generally include the directional prefix, and the prefix is generally not considered part of the name. They are only used when forming an address. 2) A new tag name_prefix, shall contain the directional prefix as one of N, S, E, or W. (I will document this tag on the wiki) 3) The alt_name tag shall include the full name with prefix, for example South 900 East. This is primary to aid the name finder, I'm assuming it won't get displayed on the map. 4) The loc_name tag shall the #th name (ie 9th East) when the street is a multiple of 100, as that form of the name is also very commonly used. 5) The name_1 tag shell include the other signed named for a street (for example Broadway for 300 South) when one exists. 6) The alt_name_* tags shall include any other names found in the name_* tags which I can't make sense of. These can be hand checked later. Thoughts? I am only going to run my bot on the streets under the salt lake city grid system, but can run it on other areas by request. In addition I will make the source code available. Notes: I am new here, but I read over the thread Street Naming Conventions and wish to stay out of that debate. Several people have systemically expanded all abbreviations of street names in Salt Lake City. I am not going to change them back to the abbreviated form. I have looked at: http://vidthekid.info/misc/osm-abbr.html, and from that have some specific recommendations on handling directional prefixes and suffixes that I can go into later if desired. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Removing tiger:* tags
On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 9:25 PM, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 July 2010 03:02, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: But road A has been rerouted since the TIGER data was created and now ends at road C, without touching road B. You can't use shortcuts like this. Sure it can be outdated same as any other tag value. The difference is that no one is keeping it up to date. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Mike Thompson wrote: On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: Is there a reason you replied privately? May I forward your post to the list? On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Mike Thompson wrote: In presume you live in Salt Lake City? Yes I do. I don't live in Utah, but my experience during my travels has been that streets are generally signed like S 900 E. Not in salt lake city. All cities in Utah (that I am aware of) are laid out in a grid and use grid style addressing (I think you alluded to this in your post). In the above example, there is probably also a N 900 E. If move the S or South (I don't want to get into the expand vs. not expanding abbreviations here), you introduce a potential ambiguous situation. There is a North and South 900 East, but they are the same road. North becomes South when it crosses South Template. The only ambiguous situation is if you give an address of 333 900 E, as this has two potential locations (one North and one south of South Temple). The correct address is 333 S 900 E. Hence, the directional prefix is more part of the address. In additional most printed maps do not include the directional prefix. It is only really found on online maps. If the road changes names when it crosses South Temple (other cities in Utah use Main or Central as the dividing line), then I would contend that it is a different road, at least name wise. The road name does not really change. The directional prefix is not really part of the road name, it is not signed that way. When someone asks you what street you live on you would say 900 East (or sometimes 9th East), you will not include the directional prefix. Wash DC has a different four quadrant grid system. 14 St NW becomes 14 St SW when it crosses Constitution Ave. I don't think anyone would suggest changing it to 14 St W and moving the N or S to the address. Washington DC, uses a different system, and is a separate case. I think putting the first directional in with the address makes handling the address more difficult. When finding a numeric address it is just a matter of comparison, 850 is between 800 and 900. Typically anything that follows the address, e.g. Suite B, just makes the address more specific, it does not mean the location is on the other side of town. Yes it does, slightly. Which is why online maps probably include it. It simplifies forming the address. You simply combine a number with the street names. But a full address is more complicated than that. See http://vidthekid.info/misc/osm-abbr.html Also see http://pe.usps.com/text/pub28/pub28c2.html (section 233) The directional prefix (especially when spelled out) in my view just adds noise to the map. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names
On Sat, 2010-07-31 at 16:34 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Mike Thompson wrote: On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: All cities in Utah (that I am aware of) are laid out in a grid and use grid style addressing (I think you alluded to this in your post). In the above example, there is probably also a N 900 E. If move the S or South (I don't want to get into the expand vs. not expanding abbreviations here), you introduce a potential ambiguous situation. There is a North and South 900 East, but they are the same road. North becomes South when it crosses South Template. The only ambiguous situation is if you give an address of 333 900 E, as this has two potential locations (one North and one south of South Temple). The correct address is 333 S 900 E. Hence, the directional prefix is more part of the address. In additional most printed maps do not include the directional prefix. It is only really found on online maps. If the road changes names when it crosses South Temple (other cities in Utah use Main or Central as the dividing line), then I would contend that it is a different road, at least name wise. The road name does not really change. The directional prefix is not really part of the road name, it is not signed that way. When someone asks you what street you live on you would say 900 East (or sometimes 9th East), you will not include the directional prefix. In Salt Lake City, South Temple is 0 N/S and Main Street is 0 E/W. Though the Avenues District changes the normal grid layout. While Ogden (Utah) is laid out in a grid, it is somewhat different. In Ogden, Wall Avenue is 100 E/W and North Street is 100 N/S. Also, east and south direction prefixes are assumed if none is given. So 3725 Washington is really 3725 South Washington Boulevard, and 350 25th is 350 East 25th Street. If/when you run your script on Ogden (which I'd like), you'll have to take this directional assumption into account. However, we come to the problem of tagging as the street signs say (as the wiki says with abbreviations expanded), or tagging for address look-up (which I've only seen Cloud Made make available). When tagging for alternate names, do we use name, name_1, name_2, name_3, etc, or name, alt_name. Note: Some streets that I've corrected tags on legitimately have six name tags. For instance: Washington Boulevard, South Washington Boulevard, 400 East, South 400 East, 400 East Street, South 400 East Street, US-89, though the last one I've put in the ref tag. (However, it would be legitimate to give an address like 3750 South US-89 and it would get there. When US-89 splits off from Washington Boulevard, it is fully spelled out as United States Highway 89.) If you don't want all of the variations put in some sort of name tag, then develop a standard way of conveying the same information. - Val - ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Directional Prefix/Postfix Proposal
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Kevin Atkinson wrote: Since someone objected to my proposed changes to Salt Lake City, I am going to go ahead and give my proposal for how I think directional prefixes should be handled. I am going to stay out of the debate on street name abbreviations and focus on just the directional prefix/postfix parts. I want to come an agreement on talk-us, and then would like to make it an official standard (at least in the U.S.). INTRO) A full street address included more than just a Number and a Street, it also includes a directional prefix. Vid the kid, gave an excellent overview at http://vidthekid.info/misc/osm-abbr.html. For example (from his page) in the address: 4242 S Champion Ave E The 'S' is a directional prefix and the 'E' is the suffix and in: 1337 Rainbow Dr SW The 'SW' is a directional suffix (really a quadrant suffix). I would like to formally propose two things 1) An exception to the abbreviation rule for directional indicators with the fully expanded name going into alt_name 2) New tags to record the presence of directional indicators in the address. #1) I propose an exception to the abbreviation rule be made for directional indicators. 'North, 'South', 'East', and 'West' when a directional indicator (and not part of the street name) shall be abbreviated 'N.', 'S.', 'E.', and 'W.' (with a period, will explain why below), and Northeast, Southeast, Northwest, Southwest shall be abbreviated as 'NW', 'SW', 'SE', and 'NW' (without any periods). The fully expanded name may be included in alt_name. Please note that when a street name included a number and a direction for example 700 South I consider the direction part of the name and not a suffix, hence (for now) it should be abbreviated. ^^^ make that should _not_ be abbreviated sorry. Reasons: 1) When a directional indicator is included as part of the street sign it is almost universally in smaller letters and hence of less importance. Abbreviating emphases this fact. 2) Unlike street name indications, the abbreviations for directions are fairly standard (with the exception of South sometimes being 'So' to avoid confusion with Street, but that is not used very much, and 'S' is never an accepted abbreviation for Street). 3) Spelling out the prefix can lead to ambiguous situations where it is unclear if the prefix is part of the street name (vid the kid gave several examples in his web page) 4) Single letter shall end with a period to avoid confusion with single letter street names (E Street) or route designators (County Route E, but I have no idea where that is used). 5) The fully expanded name may be included using the alt_name tag to aid those searching for an address. #2) I propose two new tags: name_prefix name_suffix If the directional prefix is not part of the name than the appropriate tag shall be used to indicate the need for a directional prefix in an address. North, South, etc, shall be abbreviated as one of 'N' 'S' 'E' 'W', 'NW' 'SW', 'NE', 'SE' There is no need for a period here. If it is included in the word included shall be used instead. This means the the first word (for a prefix) or the last word (for a suffix) is a directional indicator and shall be left in abbreviated form by name correction bots and the like. Some Examples) To encode South 700 East in Salt Lake City: name = S. 700 East name_prefix = included alt_name = South 700 East OR if the prefix is not included: name = 700 East name_prefix = S alt_name = South 700 East To encode South West Temple in Salt Lake City: name = S. West Temple name_prefix = included alt_name = South West Temple (as an aside, it should never be written SW Temple, as google maps has it) K Street NW in Washington DC, name = K Street NW name_suffix = included alt_name = K Street Northwest (would anyone really write this?) FINAL WORDS) Comments welcome. I would like to get a clear indication on where people stand on my proposal, so please clearly indicate if you overall agree or disagree with my proposal. If most people agree with me, I would like to know the proper procedure for making this into an official standard to follow (for at least the U.S.). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Directional Prefix/Postfix Proposal
On 1 August 2010 03:54, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: 1) An exception to the abbreviation rule for directional indicators with the fully expanded name going into alt_name First I'd like to oppose making exceptions from the global rules in local rules. The global rules are vague enough that there's always some space to express all that is needed by further specifying the rules. (Note that in the end there's no official local or global rules.. question you asked at the end of your mail. So in the end many people will try to learn the scheme by looking at the map data around them, or by doing what seems logical. This does not mean that there shouldn't be any rules, but it does mean that they need to be rather simple) ... #1) I propose an exception to the abbreviation rule be made for directional indicators. 'North, 'South', 'East', and 'West' when a directional indicator (and not part of the street name) shall be abbreviated 'N.', 'S.', 'E.', and 'W.' (with a period, will explain why below), and Northeast, Southeast, Northwest, Southwest shall be abbreviated as 'NW', 'SW', 'SE', and 'NW' (without any periods). The fully expanded name may be included in alt_name. You can make up a new tag, like full_name, or alt_spelling, there's no limitation on this. I feel that alt_name should probably be left for actual alternative names. ... 3) Spelling out the prefix can lead to ambiguous situations where it is unclear if the prefix is part of the street name (vid the kid gave several examples in his web page) But you later propose the included thing which removes this ambiguity. Cheers ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Directional Prefix/Postfix Proposal
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Val Kartchner wrote: 1) I agree with most of your proposal. a) Your proposal doesn't take into account cases where there is both a name and a numeric designation for a street. An instance in Ogden, Utah is Washington Boulevard and its alias 400 East. In both cases doesn't a directional prefix apply. However, to avoid ambiguity with the _prefix tag. How about this rule. The _prefix and _suffix apply to all name tags. Hence if name_1 is 400 East than name_1_prefix shall be S, etc. b) In the example 700 East that you give, wouldn't the official name be 700 East Street? Do you call you numbered streets Street in Ogden? I have never thought about it much but I would always say I lived on 700 South not 700 South Street. It sounds odd to non-locals (try giving that address to someone in the east over the phone) but I don't think anyone really considers Street part of the name of numbered streets. Than again, I have only been living here for 6 years, so I will yield to someone who grew up the area. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Directional Prefix/Postfix Proposal
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Val Kartchner wrote: On Sat, 2010-07-31 at 21:31 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Val Kartchner wrote: 1) I agree with most of your proposal. a) Your proposal doesn't take into account cases where there is both a name and a numeric designation for a street. An instance in Ogden, Utah is Washington Boulevard and its alias 400 East. In both cases doesn't a directional prefix apply. However, to avoid ambiguity with the _prefix tag. How about this rule. The _prefix and _suffix apply to all name tags. Hence if name_1 is 400 East than name_1_prefix shall be S, etc. So, you're also proposing that the additional name(s) be placed in name_1, etc. No. I'm saying _if_ the name is places in name_1 than use name_1_prefix, if it is placed in alt_name, use alt_name_prefix, etc. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
