Re: [Talk-us] Removing tiger:* tags

2010-07-31 Thread Val Kartchner
On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 15:00 -0400, Anthony wrote:
 Basically, the only tag I can imagine worth keeping would be the
 name_type, name_base, name_* ones, and those should be removed from
 the tiger:* namespace.  But really before that can be done a standard
 should be decided on about how to store the names.  Once that is done,
 I'll gladly produce a script to re-add all the name_base/name_types
 that I've deleted.

Good luck on this idea.  This is the fourth time that it has been
brought up since I've been on this mailing list (less than a year).
There is much discussion but no decision is made.  The topic gets
dropped, then the topic comes up a few months later.

- Val -


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[Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names

2010-07-31 Thread Kevin Atkinson


Salt Lake City street names are a bit of a mess.  They are often several 
redundant names:

  name = South 900 East
  name_1 = 900 East
  name_2 = South 900  East (an extra space)
and sometimes:
  name_3 = 9th East

I would like to write a bot (or semi-automated plugin for JOSM) to clean 
up Sale Lake City Street Names so that they follow the following 
convention:


1) The name tag shall include the primary street name as signed, 
_without_ the directional prefix, but with the direction (really part of 
the street name and not a suffix) spelled out, for example 900 East. The 
street signs do not generally include the directional prefix, and the 
prefix is generally not considered part of the name.  They are only used 
when forming an address.


2) A new tag name_prefix, shall contain the directional prefix as one
of N, S, E, or W.  (I will document this tag on the wiki)

3) The alt_name tag shall include the full name with prefix, for example 
South 900 East.  This is primary to aid the name finder, I'm assuming 
it won't get displayed on the map.


4) The loc_name tag shall the #th name (ie 9th East) when the street is 
a multiple of 100, as that form of the name is also very commonly used.


5) The name_1 tag shell include the other signed named for a street (for 
example Broadway for 300 South) when one exists.


6) The alt_name_* tags shall include any other names found in the 
name_* tags which I can't make sense of.  These can be hand checked 
later.


Thoughts?

I am only going to run my bot on the streets under the salt lake city grid 
system, but can run it on other areas by request.  In addition I will make 
the source code available.


Notes: I am new here, but I read over the thread Street Naming 
Conventions and wish to stay out of that debate.  Several people have 
systemically expanded all abbreviations of street names in Salt Lake City.
I am not going to change them back to the abbreviated form.  I have looked 
at: http://vidthekid.info/misc/osm-abbr.html, and from that have some 
specific recommendations on handling directional prefixes and suffixes that 
I can go into later if desired.




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Re: [Talk-us] Removing tiger:* tags

2010-07-31 Thread Anthony
On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 9:25 PM, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 31 July 2010 03:02, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote:
 But road A has been rerouted since the TIGER data was created and now
 ends at road C, without touching road B. You can't use shortcuts like
 this.

 Sure it can be outdated same as any other tag value.

The difference is that no one is keeping it up to date.

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Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names

2010-07-31 Thread Kevin Atkinson

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Mike Thompson wrote:


On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote:

Is there a reason you replied privately?  May I forward your post to the
list?

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Mike Thompson wrote:


In presume you live in Salt Lake City?


Yes I do.


I don't live in Utah, but my experience during my travels has been
that streets are generally signed like S 900 E.


Not in salt lake city.


All cities in Utah
(that I am aware of) are laid out in a grid and use grid style
addressing (I think you alluded to this in your post).  In the above
example, there is probably also a N 900 E.  If move the S or
South (I don't want to get into the expand vs. not expanding
abbreviations here), you introduce a potential ambiguous situation.


There is a North and South 900 East, but they are the same road.  North
becomes South when it crosses South Template.  The only ambiguous situation
is if you give an address of 333 900 E, as this has two potential
locations (one North and one south of South Temple). The correct address is
333 S 900 E.  Hence, the directional prefix is more part of the address.
 In additional most printed maps do not include the directional prefix.  It
is only really found on online maps.


If the road changes names when it crosses South Temple (other cities
in Utah use Main or Central as the dividing line), then I would
contend that it is a different road, at least name wise.


The road name does not really change.  The directional prefix is not 
really part of the road name, it is not signed that way.  When someone 
asks you what street you live on you would say 900 East (or sometimes 
9th East), you will not include the directional prefix.



Wash DC has a different four quadrant grid system. 14 St NW becomes 14
St SW when it crosses Constitution Ave.  I don't think anyone would
suggest changing it to 14 St W and moving the N or S to the
address.


Washington DC, uses a different system, and is a separate case.


I think putting the first directional in with the address makes
handling the address more difficult.  When finding a numeric address
it is just a matter of comparison, 850 is between 800 and 900.
Typically anything that follows the address, e.g. Suite B, just
makes the address more specific, it does not mean the location is on
the other side of town.


Yes it does, slightly.  Which is why online maps probably include it.  It 
simplifies forming the address.  You simply combine a number with the 
street names.  But a full address is more complicated than that.  See

  http://vidthekid.info/misc/osm-abbr.html
Also see
  http://pe.usps.com/text/pub28/pub28c2.html (section 233)

The directional prefix (especially when spelled out) in my view just adds 
noise to the map.
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Re: [Talk-us] Would Like To Clean Salt Lake City Street Names

2010-07-31 Thread Val Kartchner
On Sat, 2010-07-31 at 16:34 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote:
 On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Mike Thompson wrote:
 
  On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org 
  wrote:
  All cities in Utah
  (that I am aware of) are laid out in a grid and use grid style
  addressing (I think you alluded to this in your post).  In the above
  example, there is probably also a N 900 E.  If move the S or
  South (I don't want to get into the expand vs. not expanding
  abbreviations here), you introduce a potential ambiguous situation.
 
  There is a North and South 900 East, but they are the same road.  North
  becomes South when it crosses South Template.  The only ambiguous situation
  is if you give an address of 333 900 E, as this has two potential
  locations (one North and one south of South Temple). The correct address is
  333 S 900 E.  Hence, the directional prefix is more part of the address.
   In additional most printed maps do not include the directional prefix.  It
  is only really found on online maps.
 
  If the road changes names when it crosses South Temple (other cities
  in Utah use Main or Central as the dividing line), then I would
  contend that it is a different road, at least name wise.
 
 The road name does not really change.  The directional prefix is not 
 really part of the road name, it is not signed that way.  When someone 
 asks you what street you live on you would say 900 East (or sometimes 
 9th East), you will not include the directional prefix.

In Salt Lake City, South Temple is 0 N/S and Main Street is 0 E/W.
Though the Avenues District changes the normal grid layout.

While Ogden (Utah) is laid out in a grid, it is somewhat different. In
Ogden, Wall Avenue is 100 E/W and North Street is 100 N/S.  Also, east
and south direction prefixes are assumed if none is given.  So 3725
Washington is really 3725 South Washington Boulevard, and 350 25th
is 350 East 25th Street.  If/when you run your script on Ogden (which
I'd like), you'll have to take this directional assumption into account.

However, we come to the problem of tagging as the street signs say (as
the wiki says with abbreviations expanded), or tagging for address
look-up (which I've only seen Cloud Made make available).  When tagging
for alternate names, do we use name, name_1, name_2, name_3,
etc, or name, alt_name.

Note: Some streets that I've corrected tags on legitimately have six
name tags.  For instance: Washington Boulevard, South Washington
Boulevard, 400 East, South 400 East, 400 East Street, South 400
East Street, US-89, though the last one I've put in the ref tag.
(However, it would be legitimate to give an address like 3750 South
US-89 and it would get there.  When US-89 splits off from Washington
Boulevard, it is fully spelled out as United States Highway 89.)  If
you don't want all of the variations put in some sort of name tag,
then develop a standard way of conveying the same information.

- Val -


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Re: [Talk-us] Directional Prefix/Postfix Proposal

2010-07-31 Thread Kevin Atkinson

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Kevin Atkinson wrote:

Since someone objected to my proposed changes to Salt Lake City, I am going 
to go ahead and give my proposal for how I think directional prefixes should 
be handled.  I am going to stay out of the debate on street name 
abbreviations and focus on just the directional prefix/postfix parts.  I want 
to come an agreement on talk-us, and then would like to make it an official 
standard (at least in the U.S.).


INTRO)

A full street address included more than just a Number and a Street, it also 
includes a directional prefix.  Vid the kid, gave an excellent overview at 
http://vidthekid.info/misc/osm-abbr.html.  For example (from his page) in the 
address:

 4242 S Champion Ave E
The 'S' is a directional prefix and the 'E' is the suffix and in:
 1337 Rainbow Dr SW
The 'SW' is a directional suffix (really a quadrant suffix).

I would like to formally propose two things

 1) An exception to the abbreviation rule for directional indicators
with the fully expanded name going into alt_name
 2) New tags to record the presence of directional indicators in the
address.

#1)

I propose an exception to the abbreviation rule be made for directional 
indicators.  'North, 'South', 'East', and 'West' when a directional indicator 
(and not part of the street name) shall be abbreviated 'N.', 'S.', 'E.', and 
'W.' (with a period, will explain why below), and Northeast, Southeast, 
Northwest, Southwest shall be abbreviated as 'NW', 'SW', 'SE', and 'NW' 
(without any periods).  The fully expanded name may be included in 
alt_name.


Please note that when a street name included a number and a direction for 
example 700 South I consider the direction part of the name and not a 
suffix, hence (for now) it should be abbreviated.

^^^ make that should _not_ be abbreviated sorry.


Reasons:

1) When a directional indicator is included as part of the street sign it is 
almost universally in smaller letters and hence of less importance. 
Abbreviating emphases this fact.


2) Unlike street name indications, the abbreviations for directions are 
fairly standard (with the exception of South sometimes being 'So' to avoid 
confusion with Street, but that is not used very much, and 'S' is never an 
accepted abbreviation for Street).


3) Spelling out the prefix can lead to ambiguous situations where it is 
unclear if the prefix is part of the street name (vid the kid gave several 
examples in his web page)


4) Single letter shall end with a period to avoid confusion with single 
letter street names (E Street) or route designators (County Route E, but I 
have no idea where that is used).


5) The fully expanded name may be included using the alt_name tag to aid 
those searching for an address.


#2)

I propose two new tags:
 name_prefix
 name_suffix

If the directional prefix is not part of the name than the appropriate tag 
shall be used to indicate the need for a directional prefix in an address. 
North, South, etc, shall be abbreviated as one of

 'N' 'S' 'E' 'W', 'NW' 'SW', 'NE', 'SE'
There is no need for a period here.

If it is included in the word included shall be used instead.  This means 
the the first word (for a prefix) or the last word (for a suffix) is a 
directional indicator and shall be left in abbreviated form by name 
correction bots and the like.


Some Examples)

To encode South 700 East in Salt Lake City:
 name = S. 700 East
 name_prefix = included
 alt_name = South 700 East
OR if the prefix is not included:
 name = 700 East
 name_prefix = S
 alt_name = South 700 East

To encode South West Temple in Salt Lake City:
 name = S. West Temple
 name_prefix = included
 alt_name = South West Temple
(as an aside, it should never be written SW Temple, as google maps has it)

K Street NW in Washington DC,
 name = K Street NW
 name_suffix = included
 alt_name = K Street Northwest (would anyone really write this?)

FINAL WORDS)

Comments welcome.  I would like to get a clear indication on where people 
stand on my proposal, so please clearly indicate if you overall agree or 
disagree with my proposal.


If most people agree with me, I would like to know the proper procedure for 
making this into an official standard to follow (for at least the U.S.).


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Re: [Talk-us] Directional Prefix/Postfix Proposal

2010-07-31 Thread andrzej zaborowski
On 1 August 2010 03:54, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote:
  1) An exception to the abbreviation rule for directional indicators
     with the fully expanded name going into alt_name

First I'd like to oppose making exceptions from the global rules in
local rules.  The global rules are vague enough that there's always
some space to express all that is needed by further specifying the
rules.

(Note that in the end there's no official local or global rules..
question you asked at the end of your mail.  So in the end many people
will try to learn the scheme by looking at the map data around them,
or by doing what seems logical.  This does not mean that there
shouldn't be any rules, but it does mean that they need to be rather
simple)

...
 #1)

 I propose an exception to the abbreviation rule be made for directional
 indicators.  'North, 'South', 'East', and 'West' when a directional
 indicator (and not part of the street name) shall be abbreviated 'N.', 'S.',
 'E.', and 'W.' (with a period, will explain why below), and Northeast,
 Southeast, Northwest, Southwest shall be abbreviated as 'NW', 'SW', 'SE',
 and 'NW' (without any periods).  The fully expanded name may be included in
 alt_name.

You can make up a new tag, like full_name, or alt_spelling, there's no
limitation on this.  I feel that alt_name should probably be left for
actual alternative names.

...
 3) Spelling out the prefix can lead to ambiguous situations where it is
 unclear if the prefix is part of the street name (vid the kid gave several
 examples in his web page)

But you later propose the included thing which removes this ambiguity.

Cheers

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Re: [Talk-us] Directional Prefix/Postfix Proposal

2010-07-31 Thread Kevin Atkinson

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Val Kartchner wrote:


1) I agree with most of your proposal.
 a) Your proposal doesn't take into account cases where there is both a
name and a numeric designation for a street.  An instance in Ogden,
Utah is Washington Boulevard and its alias 400 East.


In both cases doesn't a directional prefix apply.

However, to avoid ambiguity with the _prefix tag.  How about this rule. 
The _prefix and _suffix apply to all name tags.  Hence if name_1 is 
400 East than name_1_prefix shall be S, etc.



 b) In the example 700 East that you give, wouldn't the official name
be 700 East Street?


Do you call you numbered streets Street in Ogden?  I have never thought 
about it much but I would always say I lived on 700 South not 700 South 
Street.  It sounds odd to non-locals (try giving that address to someone 
in the east over the phone) but I don't think anyone really considers 
Street part of the name of numbered streets.  Than again, I have only 
been living here for 6 years, so I will yield to someone who grew up the 
area.



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Re: [Talk-us] Directional Prefix/Postfix Proposal

2010-07-31 Thread Kevin Atkinson

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Val Kartchner wrote:


On Sat, 2010-07-31 at 21:31 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote:

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Val Kartchner wrote:


1) I agree with most of your proposal.
 a) Your proposal doesn't take into account cases where there is both a
name and a numeric designation for a street.  An instance in Ogden,
Utah is Washington Boulevard and its alias 400 East.


In both cases doesn't a directional prefix apply.

However, to avoid ambiguity with the _prefix tag.  How about this rule.
The _prefix and _suffix apply to all name tags.  Hence if name_1 is
400 East than name_1_prefix shall be S, etc.


So, you're also proposing that the additional name(s) be placed in
name_1, etc.


No.  I'm saying _if_ the name is places in name_1 than use name_1_prefix, 
if it is placed in alt_name, use alt_name_prefix, etc.



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