Re: [Talk-us] ref tags
Those pages certainly say that Farm to Market Roads and Ranch to Market Roads exist. I don't see anywhere that says they are part of the same network, or that all Ranch to Market Roads are actually Farm to Market Roads, or vice versa. Additionally, Urban Roads are certainly not part of the same network because different laws apply to them. They are eligible for state maintenance but must use local funding for expansion. I'm not seeing why this is that big of an issue. It seems quite clear to me that TxDOT refers to FM and RM as two separate (but similar) things, and it is my opinion that they should be tagged as such in OSM. On Jun 20, 2013 7:31 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > http://www.dot.state.tx.us/tpp/hwy/fmfacts.htm Texas refers to the > network as Farm/Ranch to Market or Farm to Market, except Ranch Road 1 and > NASA Road 1 (both of which are part of single-route networks, because > Texas). The last fact I would correct to say "currently" since Oklahoma > formerly had Farm-to-Market roads, every now and then I find a > long-abandoned farm-to-market reference in the name*=* tags tiger imported > in rural Oklahoma. The TxDOT's official glossary identify Urban Road, Farm > to Market and Ranch to Market identically, and an Urban Road as an FM/RM > running through an urban area. > http://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/division/transportation-planning/highway-designation/glossary.html > > > Using the TxDOT search system, there seems to be a lot of bikeshedding > within the department on request of locals who want a Farm to Market to be > a Ranch to Market or Urban Road or vice-versa-et-cetra and nothing to > suggest that FM/RM/UR are three different networks. > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Clay Smalley wrote: > >> I checked the Wikipedia page and couldn't find anything. Could you do me >> a favor and point me to the part of the article you're referring to, and/or >> the cited source? >> >> I'd rather solve this without more mailing list drama, if possible. >> On Jun 20, 2013 9:06 AM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >> >>> Check the Farm-to-market page on Wikipedia. >>> On Jun 19, 2013 11:00 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: >>> Does the Wikipedia bit have a cited source? I can understand that being true; I just want to verify. The Texas Highway Designation Files list them as two separate types. On Jun 19, 2013 8:25 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > TxDOT is cited in Wikipedia as documenting them as being the same > network (farm to market), and no RM and FM have the same number. They > just > change the sign to RM when the route primarily passes through ranches > instead of farms. According to TxDOT, there is exactly one "Ranch Road", > being RR 1, the rest are "farm to market." It's definitely one of the > more > confusing aspects of the Texas highway system, sort of like the nebulous > distinction between Park Roads and Rec Roads. > On Jun 19, 2013 5:22 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: > >> It's US:TX:FM for FM roads, and US:TX:RM for RM roads. There may be >> little to no overlap between RM and FM, and they may serve the same >> purpose, but I see no need to go through them all and change all of them >> to >> one network. They are different networks according to the state of Texas. >> On Jun 19, 2013 12:52 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >> >>> Curious if the network for RM and FM is consistently US:TX:FM for >>> both, since they're both part of the same network. >>> On Jun 19, 2013 10:52 AM, "Clay Smalley" >>> wrote: >>> Fortunately most of Texas has been done, but unfortunately the FM/RM roads haven't been completed and there are quite a lot of them. I made a Mapcraft to help add relations to them all: http://mapcraft.nanodesu.ru/pie/269 I've made a little progress in the Texas Panhandle but we definitely need more people to help out if it's gonna get done. On Jun 19, 2013 7:39 AM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Martijn van Exel > wrote: > >> Also, how is the situation on the state level? I notice that for >> some states, there are no State Route relation pages. ( >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_Numbered_Highway_Relations#See_also >> ) >> > > I'm working on Oklahoma right now and keeping it documented. > Progress has been slow since I'm not satisfied in just slapping down > relations, I'm checking each highway for continuity and connectivity > as I > go along. I've been going somewhat sequentially but if I come across > a > state highway I know goes through but things refuse to route down it > while > I'm working, I'll go through and fine-tooth-comb it when I get back > (as I'm > doing with O
Re: [Talk-us] ref tags
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/tpp/hwy/fmfacts.htm Texas refers to the network as Farm/Ranch to Market or Farm to Market, except Ranch Road 1 and NASA Road 1 (both of which are part of single-route networks, because Texas). The last fact I would correct to say "currently" since Oklahoma formerly had Farm-to-Market roads, every now and then I find a long-abandoned farm-to-market reference in the name*=* tags tiger imported in rural Oklahoma. The TxDOT's official glossary identify Urban Road, Farm to Market and Ranch to Market identically, and an Urban Road as an FM/RM running through an urban area. http://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/division/transportation-planning/highway-designation/glossary.html Using the TxDOT search system, there seems to be a lot of bikeshedding within the department on request of locals who want a Farm to Market to be a Ranch to Market or Urban Road or vice-versa-et-cetra and nothing to suggest that FM/RM/UR are three different networks. On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Clay Smalley wrote: > I checked the Wikipedia page and couldn't find anything. Could you do me a > favor and point me to the part of the article you're referring to, and/or > the cited source? > > I'd rather solve this without more mailing list drama, if possible. > On Jun 20, 2013 9:06 AM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > >> Check the Farm-to-market page on Wikipedia. >> On Jun 19, 2013 11:00 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: >> >>> Does the Wikipedia bit have a cited source? I can understand that being >>> true; I just want to verify. The Texas Highway Designation Files list them >>> as two separate types. >>> On Jun 19, 2013 8:25 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >>> TxDOT is cited in Wikipedia as documenting them as being the same network (farm to market), and no RM and FM have the same number. They just change the sign to RM when the route primarily passes through ranches instead of farms. According to TxDOT, there is exactly one "Ranch Road", being RR 1, the rest are "farm to market." It's definitely one of the more confusing aspects of the Texas highway system, sort of like the nebulous distinction between Park Roads and Rec Roads. On Jun 19, 2013 5:22 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: > It's US:TX:FM for FM roads, and US:TX:RM for RM roads. There may be > little to no overlap between RM and FM, and they may serve the same > purpose, but I see no need to go through them all and change all of them > to > one network. They are different networks according to the state of Texas. > On Jun 19, 2013 12:52 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > >> Curious if the network for RM and FM is consistently US:TX:FM for >> both, since they're both part of the same network. >> On Jun 19, 2013 10:52 AM, "Clay Smalley" >> wrote: >> >>> Fortunately most of Texas has been done, but unfortunately the FM/RM >>> roads haven't been completed and there are quite a lot of them. I made a >>> Mapcraft to help add relations to them all: >>> http://mapcraft.nanodesu.ru/pie/269 >>> >>> I've made a little progress in the Texas Panhandle but we definitely >>> need more people to help out if it's gonna get done. >>> On Jun 19, 2013 7:39 AM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > Also, how is the situation on the state level? I notice that for > some states, there are no State Route relation pages. ( > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_Numbered_Highway_Relations#See_also > ) > I'm working on Oklahoma right now and keeping it documented. Progress has been slow since I'm not satisfied in just slapping down relations, I'm checking each highway for continuity and connectivity as I go along. I've been going somewhat sequentially but if I come across a state highway I know goes through but things refuse to route down it while I'm working, I'll go through and fine-tooth-comb it when I get back (as I'm doing with OK 48 right now). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] ref tags
> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 15:15:02 -0400 > From: phi...@pobox.com > To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] ref tags > > * Clay Smalley [2013-06-20 09:26 -0700]: > > Also, even if it were the case that they were the same network, it makes > > sense to keep them separate because that is how the shield renderer > > determines which shield to put on the road. > > My shield renderer is pretty flexible. I can assign shields on a > ref-by-ref basis, if need be (though it means that networks' shields > require more maintenance in the long run).[0] As long as the solution > has local consensus I'll find a way to work with it.[1] > > [0] See, for example, Georgia route 515, which gets a blue sign because > it's part of an Appalachian Highway Development System corridor: > > > http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12&lat=34.66561&lon=-84.48668&layers=B > > [1] Or throw up my hands and say, "I don't know how to handle that," but > that shouldn't impede consensus. There are still a bunch of things I > don't have a good way to handle yet, like the way Tennessee does > primary and secondary state highways, or the way Maryland signs > Business US Highways. > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Well, for the Tennessee State Highways, as long as we can find out which are "secondary", we could tag them in the relations as "US:TN:SR" or "US:TN:Secondary" and then use a Super relation to tie together routes that have segments with both primary and secondary segments types. The kicker is how to find out which segments are which. I don't know if TDOT has any GIS data out there to download that would be compatible with OSM that would allow us to figure out which is which. -James ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] ref tags
* Clay Smalley [2013-06-20 09:26 -0700]: > Also, even if it were the case that they were the same network, it makes > sense to keep them separate because that is how the shield renderer > determines which shield to put on the road. My shield renderer is pretty flexible. I can assign shields on a ref-by-ref basis, if need be (though it means that networks' shields require more maintenance in the long run).[0] As long as the solution has local consensus I'll find a way to work with it.[1] [0] See, for example, Georgia route 515, which gets a blue sign because it's part of an Appalachian Highway Development System corridor: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12&lat=34.66561&lon=-84.48668&layers=B [1] Or throw up my hands and say, "I don't know how to handle that," but that shouldn't impede consensus. There are still a bunch of things I don't have a good way to handle yet, like the way Tennessee does primary and secondary state highways, or the way Maryland signs Business US Highways. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] ref tags
Also, even if it were the case that they were the same network, it makes sense to keep them separate because that is how the shield renderer determines which shield to put on the road. Tagging for the renderer, grumble grumble. On Jun 20, 2013 9:23 AM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: > I checked the Wikipedia page and couldn't find anything. Could you do me a > favor and point me to the part of the article you're referring to, and/or > the cited source? > > I'd rather solve this without more mailing list drama, if possible. > On Jun 20, 2013 9:06 AM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > >> Check the Farm-to-market page on Wikipedia. >> On Jun 19, 2013 11:00 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: >> >>> Does the Wikipedia bit have a cited source? I can understand that being >>> true; I just want to verify. The Texas Highway Designation Files list them >>> as two separate types. >>> On Jun 19, 2013 8:25 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >>> TxDOT is cited in Wikipedia as documenting them as being the same network (farm to market), and no RM and FM have the same number. They just change the sign to RM when the route primarily passes through ranches instead of farms. According to TxDOT, there is exactly one "Ranch Road", being RR 1, the rest are "farm to market." It's definitely one of the more confusing aspects of the Texas highway system, sort of like the nebulous distinction between Park Roads and Rec Roads. On Jun 19, 2013 5:22 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: > It's US:TX:FM for FM roads, and US:TX:RM for RM roads. There may be > little to no overlap between RM and FM, and they may serve the same > purpose, but I see no need to go through them all and change all of them > to > one network. They are different networks according to the state of Texas. > On Jun 19, 2013 12:52 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > >> Curious if the network for RM and FM is consistently US:TX:FM for >> both, since they're both part of the same network. >> On Jun 19, 2013 10:52 AM, "Clay Smalley" >> wrote: >> >>> Fortunately most of Texas has been done, but unfortunately the FM/RM >>> roads haven't been completed and there are quite a lot of them. I made a >>> Mapcraft to help add relations to them all: >>> http://mapcraft.nanodesu.ru/pie/269 >>> >>> I've made a little progress in the Texas Panhandle but we definitely >>> need more people to help out if it's gonna get done. >>> On Jun 19, 2013 7:39 AM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > Also, how is the situation on the state level? I notice that for > some states, there are no State Route relation pages. ( > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_Numbered_Highway_Relations#See_also > ) > I'm working on Oklahoma right now and keeping it documented. Progress has been slow since I'm not satisfied in just slapping down relations, I'm checking each highway for continuity and connectivity as I go along. I've been going somewhat sequentially but if I come across a state highway I know goes through but things refuse to route down it while I'm working, I'll go through and fine-tooth-comb it when I get back (as I'm doing with OK 48 right now). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] ref tags
I checked the Wikipedia page and couldn't find anything. Could you do me a favor and point me to the part of the article you're referring to, and/or the cited source? I'd rather solve this without more mailing list drama, if possible. On Jun 20, 2013 9:06 AM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > Check the Farm-to-market page on Wikipedia. > On Jun 19, 2013 11:00 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: > >> Does the Wikipedia bit have a cited source? I can understand that being >> true; I just want to verify. The Texas Highway Designation Files list them >> as two separate types. >> On Jun 19, 2013 8:25 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >> >>> TxDOT is cited in Wikipedia as documenting them as being the same >>> network (farm to market), and no RM and FM have the same number. They just >>> change the sign to RM when the route primarily passes through ranches >>> instead of farms. According to TxDOT, there is exactly one "Ranch Road", >>> being RR 1, the rest are "farm to market." It's definitely one of the more >>> confusing aspects of the Texas highway system, sort of like the nebulous >>> distinction between Park Roads and Rec Roads. >>> On Jun 19, 2013 5:22 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: >>> It's US:TX:FM for FM roads, and US:TX:RM for RM roads. There may be little to no overlap between RM and FM, and they may serve the same purpose, but I see no need to go through them all and change all of them to one network. They are different networks according to the state of Texas. On Jun 19, 2013 12:52 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > Curious if the network for RM and FM is consistently US:TX:FM for > both, since they're both part of the same network. > On Jun 19, 2013 10:52 AM, "Clay Smalley" > wrote: > >> Fortunately most of Texas has been done, but unfortunately the FM/RM >> roads haven't been completed and there are quite a lot of them. I made a >> Mapcraft to help add relations to them all: >> http://mapcraft.nanodesu.ru/pie/269 >> >> I've made a little progress in the Texas Panhandle but we definitely >> need more people to help out if it's gonna get done. >> On Jun 19, 2013 7:39 AM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Martijn van Exel >>> wrote: >>> Also, how is the situation on the state level? I notice that for some states, there are no State Route relation pages. ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_Numbered_Highway_Relations#See_also ) >>> >>> I'm working on Oklahoma right now and keeping it documented. >>> Progress has been slow since I'm not satisfied in just slapping down >>> relations, I'm checking each highway for continuity and connectivity as >>> I >>> go along. I've been going somewhat sequentially but if I come across a >>> state highway I know goes through but things refuse to route down it >>> while >>> I'm working, I'll go through and fine-tooth-comb it when I get back (as >>> I'm >>> doing with OK 48 right now). >>> >>> ___ >>> Talk-us mailing list >>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >>> >>> ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] ref tags
Check the Farm-to-market page on Wikipedia. On Jun 19, 2013 11:00 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: > Does the Wikipedia bit have a cited source? I can understand that being > true; I just want to verify. The Texas Highway Designation Files list them > as two separate types. > On Jun 19, 2013 8:25 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > >> TxDOT is cited in Wikipedia as documenting them as being the same network >> (farm to market), and no RM and FM have the same number. They just change >> the sign to RM when the route primarily passes through ranches instead of >> farms. According to TxDOT, there is exactly one "Ranch Road", being RR 1, >> the rest are "farm to market." It's definitely one of the more confusing >> aspects of the Texas highway system, sort of like the nebulous distinction >> between Park Roads and Rec Roads. >> On Jun 19, 2013 5:22 PM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: >> >>> It's US:TX:FM for FM roads, and US:TX:RM for RM roads. There may be >>> little to no overlap between RM and FM, and they may serve the same >>> purpose, but I see no need to go through them all and change all of them to >>> one network. They are different networks according to the state of Texas. >>> On Jun 19, 2013 12:52 PM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: >>> Curious if the network for RM and FM is consistently US:TX:FM for both, since they're both part of the same network. On Jun 19, 2013 10:52 AM, "Clay Smalley" wrote: > Fortunately most of Texas has been done, but unfortunately the FM/RM > roads haven't been completed and there are quite a lot of them. I made a > Mapcraft to help add relations to them all: > http://mapcraft.nanodesu.ru/pie/269 > > I've made a little progress in the Texas Panhandle but we definitely > need more people to help out if it's gonna get done. > On Jun 19, 2013 7:39 AM, "Paul Johnson" wrote: > >> >> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: >> >>> Also, how is the situation on the state level? I notice that for >>> some states, there are no State Route relation pages. ( >>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_Numbered_Highway_Relations#See_also >>> ) >>> >> >> I'm working on Oklahoma right now and keeping it documented. >> Progress has been slow since I'm not satisfied in just slapping down >> relations, I'm checking each highway for continuity and connectivity as I >> go along. I've been going somewhat sequentially but if I come across a >> state highway I know goes through but things refuse to route down it >> while >> I'm working, I'll go through and fine-tooth-comb it when I get back (as >> I'm >> doing with OK 48 right now). >> >> ___ >> Talk-us mailing list >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us >> >> ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
