Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Tod Fitch wrote: > I believe that as long as there is at least a solid barrier between > opposing traffic and access is limited to slip/link/ramp ways then that > section is classified as a freeway by CalTrans. Actually, just the latter. There's a fair number of mostly mountainous and rural examples in southern and Sierra parts of California where you'll see freeway entrances leading to a four-lane undivided. Or the division is basically a token move; I recall there's a segment of the 118 around Rocky Peak that allows you to drive on the lefthand shoulder, left of the single-orange line (as opposed to the flush median usually painted to provide the carpool lane some distance from substantially slower general access traffic found closer to central LA) if you're a carpool during peak hours with the only thing separating you from oncoming traffic doing the same thing is a flimsy chain-link fence I wouldn't trust to stop a bicycle from crossing over. Checking street view if they finally fixed it suggests that as of June 2012 it appears to be freshly renovated to use a flush median to seperate now 24-hour carpool access and replaced the chain link with a K-rail. > On the other hand, there is a nearly 40 mile sections of CA152 between > Casa De Fruita and I-5 which at either end have miles of limited access but > which I think are offically non-freeway (tagged as trunk in OSM). So it > could be that the length of the limited access section is taken into > consideration by CalTrans when deciding to put up a “begin freeway” sign. > Well, controlled access. I consider controlled access a little higher than limited access, the difference being whether or not surface intersections and property access is banned unless otherwise unfeasible. I would consider limited access or a mix of limited and controlled access as a trunk. About the only thing I really consider a motorway would be multilane, controlled access, ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
It is my understanding that when you see a CalTrans “Begin Freeway” sign it is indicating the section ahead is free of cross traffic (no intersections without grade separation and on/off ramps). That is, freeway implies limited access. And when you see a “End Freeway” sign there will be possible cross traffic ahead. Driving south on US 101 from Salinas there are numerous end/begin freeway signs bracketing each area with possible cross traffic (often service roads to farms that you’d never really notice without the help of those end freeway signs). Last I checked, that section of US101 is largely tagged as trunk which makes sense to me even though when driving it you are inclined to think of it as a freeway. I believe that as long as there is at least a solid barrier between opposing traffic and access is limited to slip/link/ramp ways then that section is classified as a freeway by CalTrans. On the other hand, there is a nearly 40 mile sections of CA152 between Casa De Fruita and I-5 which at either end have miles of limited access but which I think are offically non-freeway (tagged as trunk in OSM). So it could be that the length of the limited access section is taken into consideration by CalTrans when deciding to put up a “begin freeway” sign. Cheers, Tod > On Sep 2, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: > > . . . Caltrans calls a 4 lane undivided highway a freeway if it's got > ramps, but I'm not sure anybody would consider the broad scope of what some > American DOT's call a freeway to be the strict and only thing that makes it a > freeway in OSM terms. > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
I can't speak to this specific instance, but based on Paul's usual criteria, I'd take what he has to say on the topic with a grain of salt. I gave up trying to convince him OK11 between I-244 and US-75 in Tulsa should be tagged as a motorway a long time ago, even though it has zero at grade intersections. I also think the LL Tisdale between downtown and Pine should be classified motorway, but that one is at least arguable to my mind since it is very short and has only three interchanges, one of which is directional. On September 2, 2015 12:25:11 PM EDT, Paul Johnson wrote: >I'm kind of seeing that as abuse of classification and classification >creep >as well. I'd probably have gone with trunk for the entire length of KS >7 >from KS 32 to KS 10 rather than spin the wheel and creep it upwards. >I'm >not really seeing a significant difference in characteristic in the WA >500 >example or the KS 7 example from the 70 MPH sections of OK 33 or US 75 >between Tulsa and Bartlesville, OK. All four are surface freeways with >regular intersections. This one doesn't "go to 11", folks; if you >think >you need a mix of motorway and trunk, it's probably just a trunk. > >On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Richie Kennedy > >wrote: > >> Revert request opposed. At best, there needs to be additional >discussion >> within talk-us regarding this before DWG takes any action. >> >> I am not one of the participants that have edited WA 500 recently; >> however, those that have have brought this up on the AARoads forum. >It is >> the opinion of the AA posters that significant segments of upgradable >> expressways that have been upgraded to fully controlled access should >be >> tagged as motorway. >> >> I offer as an example this stretch of Kansas Highway 7 between Bonner >> Springs and Olathe: >> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33634149 >> >> It is 4 lane divided from Lansing to Olathe, and KDOT’s future plan >is to >> eventually bring the entire roadway up to freeway standards. I am >also >> personally familiar with this roadway. I have verified and marked the >> controlled access segments of K-7 as motorway, and the partially >controlled >> access roads as Trunk. >> >> Of note: the interchange at 83rd Street is marked as trunk. There is >a >> at-grade intersection with a service road between the 83rd and >Prairie Star >> Parkway interchanges. This intersection has, in fact, been overlooked >by >> OSM mappers, myself included, in the past. >> >> Richie Kennedy >> McLouth, KS >> >> >> From: Paul Johnson >> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 2:36 AM >> To: d...@osmfoundation.org ; OpenStreetMap talk-us list >> Subject: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446 >> >> This is regarding WA 500 in Vancouver, Washington. This is a surface >> expressway that will be later upgraded to a motorway, but currently >has a >> mix of surface intersections and ramp style interchanges. It appears >there >> is a small but vocal minority of people who are attempting to start >an edit >> war regarding this issue. >> > > > > >___ >Talk-us mailing list >Talk-us@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
I'm not so familiar with the K7 example, but I am intimately, first-person familiar with the WA 500 situation. The breakdown from what I gather in the changeset comments is the disconnect with how it functions on the ground and a pretty crassly mindless "but the WSDOT says it's a freeway" idea. WSDOT calls a divided super 2 with no shoulder a freeway as well. Caltrans calls a 4 lane undivided highway a freeway if it's got ramps, but I'm not sure anybody would consider the broad scope of what some American DOT's call a freeway to be the strict and only thing that makes it a freeway in OSM terms. On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Richie Kennedy wrote: > [Removing DWG from this reply] > > As Richard W indicated, and I agree, alternating sections of fully > controlled and partially controlled access is a grey area, and thus is a > judgment call. Both the WA 500 and K-7 examples are judgment calls made by > people who have observation and knowledge of what’s going on “in the field.” > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
Seems the same situation exists with US 52 in south east Minnesota. I often do edits in this region and so often see US 52 and have edited it in the past myself. Some months ago I noticed that someone had changed all of the Trunk segments to Motorway. I didn't respond to this at the time. I thought it looked nicer that way vs having so many alternating green and blue segments, but how it looks isn't what really matters, is it? This post about WA 500 prompted me to go back and look at US 52 again. I see that some of the segments that had been previously changed to Motorway were reverted back to Trunk. I viewed the history for one of these segments, way 299594397, and found that the OSM mapper who changed it from Trunk to Motorway was ajhartig26 and the mapper who reverted it back to Trunk was jumbanho. However, further north, north of Cannon Falls, many segments mistakenly upgraded to Motorway by ajhartig26 have not been corrected back to Trunk. All of that being said, I will add that I have noticed on the odd occasion that I have edited in, or at least viewed the OSM map of, some places in foreign countries, peculiar uses of the classifications, not limited to Trunk vs Motorway, and this raised questions in my mind about the matter, which is the main reason I didn't bother to re-edit those segments of US 52 that ajhartig26 had edited. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Request-revert-on-Changeset-33669446-tp5853774p5853859.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
[Removing DWG from this reply] As Richard W indicated, and I agree, alternating sections of fully controlled and partially controlled access is a grey area, and thus is a judgment call. Both the WA 500 and K-7 examples are judgment calls made by people who have observation and knowledge of what’s going on “in the field.”___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
On 9/2/15 12:25 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: > I'm kind of seeing that as abuse of classification and classification > creep as well. I'd probably have gone with trunk for the entire > length of KS 7 from KS 32 to KS 10 rather than spin the wheel and > creep it upwards. I'm not really seeing a significant difference in > characteristic in the WA 500 example or the KS 7 example from the 70 > MPH sections of OK 33 or US 75 between Tulsa and Bartlesville, OK. > All four are surface freeways with regular intersections. This one > doesn't "go to 11", folks; if you think you need a mix of motorway and > trunk, it's probably just a trunk. > it's a grey area, and i think anyone getting into an edit war over it probably needs to chill out a bit. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
I'm kind of seeing that as abuse of classification and classification creep as well. I'd probably have gone with trunk for the entire length of KS 7 from KS 32 to KS 10 rather than spin the wheel and creep it upwards. I'm not really seeing a significant difference in characteristic in the WA 500 example or the KS 7 example from the 70 MPH sections of OK 33 or US 75 between Tulsa and Bartlesville, OK. All four are surface freeways with regular intersections. This one doesn't "go to 11", folks; if you think you need a mix of motorway and trunk, it's probably just a trunk. On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Richie Kennedy wrote: > Revert request opposed. At best, there needs to be additional discussion > within talk-us regarding this before DWG takes any action. > > I am not one of the participants that have edited WA 500 recently; > however, those that have have brought this up on the AARoads forum. It is > the opinion of the AA posters that significant segments of upgradable > expressways that have been upgraded to fully controlled access should be > tagged as motorway. > > I offer as an example this stretch of Kansas Highway 7 between Bonner > Springs and Olathe: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33634149 > > It is 4 lane divided from Lansing to Olathe, and KDOT’s future plan is to > eventually bring the entire roadway up to freeway standards. I am also > personally familiar with this roadway. I have verified and marked the > controlled access segments of K-7 as motorway, and the partially controlled > access roads as Trunk. > > Of note: the interchange at 83rd Street is marked as trunk. There is a > at-grade intersection with a service road between the 83rd and Prairie Star > Parkway interchanges. This intersection has, in fact, been overlooked by > OSM mappers, myself included, in the past. > > Richie Kennedy > McLouth, KS > > > From: Paul Johnson > Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 2:36 AM > To: d...@osmfoundation.org ; OpenStreetMap talk-us list > Subject: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446 > > This is regarding WA 500 in Vancouver, Washington. This is a surface > expressway that will be later upgraded to a motorway, but currently has a > mix of surface intersections and ramp style interchanges. It appears there > is a small but vocal minority of people who are attempting to start an edit > war regarding this issue. > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
Revert request opposed. At best, there needs to be additional discussion within talk-us regarding this before DWG takes any action. I am not one of the participants that have edited WA 500 recently; however, those that have have brought this up on the AARoads forum. It is the opinion of the AA posters that significant segments of upgradable expressways that have been upgraded to fully controlled access should be tagged as motorway. I offer as an example this stretch of Kansas Highway 7 between Bonner Springs and Olathe: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/33634149 It is 4 lane divided from Lansing to Olathe, and KDOT’s future plan is to eventually bring the entire roadway up to freeway standards. I am also personally familiar with this roadway. I have verified and marked the controlled access segments of K-7 as motorway, and the partially controlled access roads as Trunk. Of note: the interchange at 83rd Street is marked as trunk. There is a at-grade intersection with a service road between the 83rd and Prairie Star Parkway interchanges. This intersection has, in fact, been overlooked by OSM mappers, myself included, in the past. Richie Kennedy McLouth, KS From: Paul Johnson Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 2:36 AM To: d...@osmfoundation.org ; OpenStreetMap talk-us list Subject: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446 This is regarding WA 500 in Vancouver, Washington. This is a surface expressway that will be later upgraded to a motorway, but currently has a mix of surface intersections and ramp style interchanges. It appears there is a small but vocal minority of people who are attempting to start an edit war regarding this issue.___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] TIGER tracing layer updated to 2015 release
Yay! The eye of the TIGER! Thanks Eric! On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 8:55 PM Nick Hocking wrote: > Yes, many thanks Eric, > > This facility will result in significant improvements to the US OSM data. > > Cheers > > > Nick > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 3:37 AM Paul Johnson wrote: > This is regarding WA 500 in Vancouver, Washington. This is a surface > expressway that will be later upgraded to a motorway, but currently has a > mix of surface intersections and ramp style interchanges. It appears there > is a small but vocal minority of people who are attempting to start an edit > war regarding this issue. > I believe this reversion would be inappropriate and the tagging as-is should stand. The portions of WA 500 tagged in OSM as "motorway" have full control of access and meet the accepted tagging standards for motorway status in North America, while the portion of the roadway lacking full access control is properly tagged as "trunk." Furthermore, the state department of transportation in question signs the "highway=motorway" sections as a freeway using "FREEWAY ENTRANCE" signage and their official state highway map also uses the line styling associated with a freeway for these segments. This would at least create a strong presumption that motorway is the correct classification for the portions of the roadway so signed. Chris -- Christopher N. Lawrence ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Request revert on Changeset #33669446
This is regarding WA 500 in Vancouver, Washington. This is a surface expressway that will be later upgraded to a motorway, but currently has a mix of surface intersections and ramp style interchanges. It appears there is a small but vocal minority of people who are attempting to start an edit war regarding this issue. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us