Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> NO!  We would *still* classify them as tracks!  Because there's no good
> reason to classify them as more major, given consistency.  We're trying to
> * not* break the routers, after all.  Yes, I realize that the vast
> majority of county roads are *not* paved in my region.  But to classify
> them as more major is a sickening choice, and would actually make OSM much
> worse than Yahoo Maps, given the situation that actually killed a Yahoo
> founder.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim
>

 Also, given that not all roads in ODOT's system are paved (yes, it's 2014,
and there's substantial parts of Oregon's state highway system not paved!)
and many of the unpaved roads in higher elevation areas are not open in the
winter, with snow gates that are often buried completely and invisibly
(probably contributing to Kim's death) thanks to a lack of snow removal, I
really have a hard time justifying, at least in the north american case,
that any unpaved route should ever get more than a track designation.
 These are routes that, with good reason, should be detoured around
whenever possible.
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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 6:28 AM, Mike N  wrote:

>  Landing on the high plains desert in the west does not make a good case
> that OSM in the US is broken.  Desert imagery cues do not match those of
> conventional climates.   Those roads likely do exist, but are barely
> visible in contrast to the surroundings.  We city-folk would classify them
> as tracks, but a desert prospector or park ranger would consider them
> secondary.


NO!  We would *still* classify them as tracks!  Because there's no good
reason to classify them as more major, given consistency.  We're trying to
* not* break the routers, after all.  Yes, I realize that the vast majority
of county roads are *not* paved in my region.  But to classify them as more
major is a sickening choice, and would actually make OSM much worse than
Yahoo Maps, given the situation that actually killed a Yahoo founder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim

Just because it's a county road doesn't stop it from being a track.  It
might be a grade1 track, but that's still a track.  Even on the most major
tracks, even if they're capable of letting you hit the default speed limit
in most counties (45 mph), I'd still consider them a track.  Mostly because
if it's not paved at all, there's a good chance that 1) it floods
regularly, 2) it's not always the grade reported in OSM and therefore not
always possible in all vehicles, and 3) completely irresponsible to
represent them as something people unfamiliar are going to want to take.
 My comfort level in taking a Chevy Malibu over dozens of miles of county
track, even if it's the shortest or fastest way, is going to be completely
different from someone unfamiliar with the territory, and unfamiliar with
the map's foibles in the region.

At least in North America, I'm willing to go so far as to say as tagging
any unpaved road as anything higher than track is Considered Harmful.
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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Ian Dees]

Hi. Let's stop this thread here, please.

Thanks,
Your friendly list admin
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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Richard Fairhurst]

Mike N. wrote:
> Landing on the high plains desert in the west does not make a 
> good case that OSM in the US is broken.  Desert imagery cues 
> do not match those of conventional climates.

I really wish I could agree with you, Mike, but my experience is that ~75%
of the US landmass is like that.

I just randomly alighted on somewhere in Texas. It's the same story.
'highway=residential's that don't exist or are, at best, very faint farm
tracks at the edge of a field. The majority of the "roads" I click on just
aren't there.

Now looking at somewhere random in Missouri. It's better - the geometries
are reasonably well lined up with the imagery. I'd say that around
two-thirds of the roads I'm clicking on are actually roads, and perhaps just
one-third are faint tracks or just non-existent.

The US community (and, dare I mention it, the late NE2) has done really well
cleaning up the major road data. If you're going from somewhere biggish to
somewhere biggish in a car, the routing will generally be good. I can
happily get OSRM to route from town to town and it works fine.

But that's not a map, that's a sparse routing graph. If I pick a random
highway=residential anywhere in the US, I have no confidence that it'll be
drivable in an average car or cyclable on an average bike. I certainly
couldn't expect it to be a road principally for residential access, in the
way that the rest of the world uses highway=residential. And that's without
going into nice-to-haves like rivers and woodland and so on. 

I don't think people realise quite how far behind OSM is in the US (the
biggest cities aside) compared to Western Europe. I can look anywhere in the
Highlands of Scotland, or barely-inhabited Mid-Wales, and OSM will be right.
Sure, some of the rarer footpaths might be missing and the stream geometry
might be a bit skewiff, but most information will be there, and what's there
will be correct. Similarly, la France profonde has come on in leaps and
bounds over the last couple of years. I don't need to tell you about
Germany. :)

Fixing the rural US is eminently achievable, and achievable right now. A
Tasking Manager instance, for a clearly defined project, would be great. I
think you'd get the armchair mappers of the world rallying to the task. If
you wanted to widen participation, you could probably build a
MapRoulette-on-steroids that provided a fast retagging UI within the
browser, with no need to fire up an editor. Or whatever.

But we can't get to OSM's 20th birthday and still have the same problem. It
needs to be fixed sooner or later, and my sense is that, at the current rate
of progress, it will be "later" - probably not within the next ten years.
Let's decide to make it "sooner" instead.

cheers
Richard





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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Russ Nelson]

Mike N writes:
 > On 8/30/2014 4:33 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 > > Seriously, OSM in the US, outside a few cities, is still way beyond broken.
 > > You can open it at any random location and the map is just fictional. (I
 > > did, just now:http://www.osm.org/edit#map=13/36.1938/-103.6446  .
 > 
 >   Landing on the high plains desert in the west does not make a good 
 > case that OSM in the US is broken.

That's a fair objection to that specific example. You are correct that
it is not representative. Pick some place in Pennsylvania, if you
want. Every time I cross over the border from New York into
Pennsylvania, I shudder.

If $X has the time to make OSM worse by deleting things, then $X
surely has the time to do some armchair mapping to add things.

If you're bored because your country is completely mapped, come visit
the US. Pick any state's list of rivers and streams (other than NY)
from Wikipedia, and start clicking. I'm happy to help anybody who
wants to add to OSM.  Verstehen Sie?

-- 
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Crynwr supports open source software
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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Martijn van Exel]

OK, I believe everyone has made their point here. Let’s leave it at this, or 
take it offline.

—  
Martijn van Exel
President, OpenStreetMap U.S. Chapter
http://openstreetmap.us/
@openstreetmapus

Elections for the 2014-2015 board Oct 4-12 - consider running for a board seat! 
 


From: Russ Nelson 
Reply: Russ Nelson >
Date: August 30, 2014 at 10:07:07 AM
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org >
Subject:  Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway  

Paul Norman writes:
> On 8/29/2014 9:41 PM, Russ Nelson wrote:
> > And then I can point you to oddly connected roads, and a
> > lack of buildings, or new buildings.
> Those things should certainly be mapped, but there are other projects to  
> put historical data.

Don't render them, then. Oh, wait, that's what you're already
doing. I'm not understanding the problem here.

If you want to start deleting things from OSM, the first thing that
should be deleted is your access.

--  
--my blog is at http://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog  

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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Russ Nelson]

Paul Norman writes:
 > On 8/29/2014 9:41 PM, Russ Nelson wrote:
 > > And then I can point you to oddly connected roads, and a
 > > lack of buildings, or new buildings.
 > Those things should certainly be mapped, but there are other projects to 
 > put historical data.

Don't render them, then. Oh, wait, that's what you're already
doing. I'm not understanding the problem here.

If you want to start deleting things from OSM, the first thing that
should be deleted is your access.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Il giorno 30/ago/2014, alle ore 10:33, Richard Fairhurst 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Russ Nelson wrote:
>> I fear that the deletionism infection has jumped from Wikipedia 
>> to OpenStreetMap.
> 
> ...is exactly what I was going to say.
> 
> Seriously, OSM in the US, outside a few cities, is still way beyond broken.
> You can open it at any random location and the map is just fictional. (I
> did, just now: http://www.osm.org/edit#map=13/36.1938/-103.6446 . Half of
> those roads don't exist at all, and the other half are barely roads,
> certainly not residential ones as tagged.) Why would you (contentiously)
> delete railway=abandoned for an actual abandoned railway trackbed when the
> map has thousands, millions, of fictional or entirely mistagged roads and
> tracks?


+1, completely agree. Even if you don't care for abandoned railways and 
question their belonging in OSM, please respect others who actually do care. 
Deleting what someone has entered with great effort (and what is correctly 
tagged) will surely cause more harm than good to OSM as a whole (eg will 
frustrate and ultimately draw engaged mappers away from OSM).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Mike N]

On 8/30/2014 4:33 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Seriously, OSM in the US, outside a few cities, is still way beyond broken.
You can open it at any random location and the map is just fictional. (I
did, just now:http://www.osm.org/edit#map=13/36.1938/-103.6446  .


 Landing on the high plains desert in the west does not make a good 
case that OSM in the US is broken.  Desert imagery cues do not match 
those of conventional climates.   Those roads likely do exist, but are 
barely visible in contrast to the surroundings.  We city-folk would 
classify them as tracks, but a desert prospector or park ranger would 
consider them secondary.



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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Richard Fairhurst]

Russ Nelson wrote:
> I fear that the deletionism infection has jumped from Wikipedia 
> to OpenStreetMap.

...is exactly what I was going to say.

Seriously, OSM in the US, outside a few cities, is still way beyond broken.
You can open it at any random location and the map is just fictional. (I
did, just now: http://www.osm.org/edit#map=13/36.1938/-103.6446 . Half of
those roads don't exist at all, and the other half are barely roads,
certainly not residential ones as tagged.) Why would you (contentiously)
delete railway=abandoned for an actual abandoned railway trackbed when the
map has thousands, millions, of fictional or entirely mistagged roads and
tracks?

I know it's a long-standing OSM joke, but at this rate we _are_ going to
have to import some Germans to the US, because it looks like the only way
the map will ever get fixed.

cheers
Richard





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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Paul Norman]

On 8/29/2014 9:41 PM, Russ Nelson wrote:

And then I can point you to oddly connected roads, and a
lack of buildings, or new buildings.
Those things should certainly be mapped, but there are other projects to 
put historical data.


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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Hans De Kryger]

I ended up deleting it completely. But another mapper disagreed with my
edit and reverted some of it. Not sure if he reverted the entire thing. It
was my mistake completely. Thought everyone was in agreement. The link i
provided no longer shows the entire railway due to my deletion. But if you
follow the link and check the history of the area I'm sure you can find it.
Again sorry if i stepped on anyone's toes. Did not mean to at all.

Regards,
Hans
On Aug 29, 2014 9:42 PM, "Russ Nelson"  wrote:

> Volker Schmidt writes:
>  > I would be a little bit more careful:
>  >
>  > If no bits of the railway survive, remove it. But if some bits are still
>  > there (e.g. buildings converted to different use, some pieces of railway
>  > bed, ...) it may be useful to maintain also some abandoned and now
>  > invisible objects in the database in order to be able to understand the
>  > former structure.
>
> Yes, exactly. I can point you to places where there are "no bits" of a
> railway left. And then I can point you to oddly connected roads, and a
> lack of buildings, or new buildings. How would you know why those
> things were that way if the railway that went through there has been
> deleted?
>
> And both abandoned and dismantled railways are rendered
> on specialized maps like OpenRailwayMap.org. They serve a purpose in
> the database.
>
> It's BAD ENOUGH that abandoned railways aren't rendered on the osm.org
> map at *some* zoom level. It's tolerable that dismantled railways
> aren't rendered. It's intolerable to recommend deleting something from
> the database just because *you* fail to see it.
>
> I fear that the deletionism infection has jumped from Wikipedia to
> OpenStreetMap.
>
> --
> --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
> Crynwr supports open source software
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Russ Nelson]

Volker Schmidt writes:
 > I would be a little bit more careful:
 > 
 > If no bits of the railway survive, remove it. But if some bits are still
 > there (e.g. buildings converted to different use, some pieces of railway
 > bed, ...) it may be useful to maintain also some abandoned and now
 > invisible objects in the database in order to be able to understand the
 > former structure.

Yes, exactly. I can point you to places where there are "no bits" of a
railway left. And then I can point you to oddly connected roads, and a
lack of buildings, or new buildings. How would you know why those
things were that way if the railway that went through there has been
deleted?

And both abandoned and dismantled railways are rendered
on specialized maps like OpenRailwayMap.org. They serve a purpose in
the database.

It's BAD ENOUGH that abandoned railways aren't rendered on the osm.org
map at *some* zoom level. It's tolerable that dismantled railways
aren't rendered. It's intolerable to recommend deleting something from
the database just because *you* fail to see it.

I fear that the deletionism infection has jumped from Wikipedia to
OpenStreetMap.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Russ Nelson]

Paul Norman writes:
 > On 8/28/2014 10:56 PM, Hans De Kryger wrote:
 > > Is this abandoned railway really need at all? The last person to touch 
 > > it was NE2. 
 > If there's no trace on the ground, delete it. If it's still there but 
 > without tracks, use railway=dismantled (e.g. a bed).
 > 
 > By the looks of it, a lot of it goes through farm fields that have 
 > obliterated any sign of it.

If there's no trace on the ground, use railway=dismantled
(e.g. completely dismantled). If it's still there but without tracks,
use railway=abandoned (e.g. a bed).

-- 
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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Volker Schmidt]

I would be a little bit more careful:

If no bits of the railway survive, remove it. But if some bits are still
there (e.g. buildings converted to different use, some pieces of railway
bed, ...) it may be useful to maintain also some abandoned and now
invisible objects in the database in order to be able to understand the
former structure.

Just a consideration ...

Volker




>3. Abandoned railway (Hans De Kryger)
>4. Re: Abandoned railway (Paul Norman)
>
>
>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 22:56:59 -0700
> From: Hans De Kryger 
> To: "talk-us@openstreetmap.org" 
> Subject: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
> Message-ID:
> <
> caocdcsbzed2wjr-psgcalulgqjqp7r0nrn30-3tat_hocsg...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Is this abandoned railway really need at all? The last person to touch it
> was NE2.
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/133791053/history#map=14/43.7165/-92.2442
>
> *Regards,*
>
> *Hans*
>
>
> *http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TheDutchMan13
> <http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TheDutchMan13> *
> -- next part --
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> ------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 23:19:50 -0700
> From: Paul Norman 
> To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway
> Message-ID: <54001b86.8040...@mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> On 8/28/2014 10:56 PM, Hans De Kryger wrote:
> > Is this abandoned railway really need at all? The last person to touch
> > it was NE2.
> If there's no trace on the ground, delete it. If it's still there but
> without tracks, use railway=dismantled (e.g. a bed).
>
> By the looks of it, a lot of it goes through farm fields that have
> obliterated any sign of it.
>
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/attachments/20140828/dc8a23c6/attachment-0001.html
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Re: [Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Paul Norman]

On 8/28/2014 10:56 PM, Hans De Kryger wrote:
Is this abandoned railway really need at all? The last person to touch 
it was NE2. 
If there's no trace on the ground, delete it. If it's still there but 
without tracks, use railway=dismantled (e.g. a bed).


By the looks of it, a lot of it goes through farm fields that have 
obliterated any sign of it.


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[Talk-us] Abandoned railway

[Hans De Kryger]

Is this abandoned railway really need at all? The last person to touch it
was NE2.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/133791053/history#map=14/43.7165/-92.2442

*Regards,*

*Hans*


*http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TheDutchMan13
 *
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