Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Joel Holdsworth

> A simpler explanation would be that women are simply interested in other
> past-times. And what's wrong with that?


*On average* women are simply interested in other past-times. And what's 
wrong with that?


--- groan that I have to put that caveat in, or people will twist your 
words.




On 05/09/17 14:32, Joel Holdsworth wrote:



The ultimate goal for OSM should be a project which everyone feels
welcome to be a part of, and which does not have a noticeable bias
towards either gender or any given race. Also, please realize just
because women are welcome to participate in OSM, does not necessarily
mean that some women will *feel* they are welcome.



But exactly how is the project unwelcoming? How could the "Edit" button 
be welcoming to men and not women?


I didn't even know the map had strip-clubs or childcare in it - and I've 
been contributing for 10-years, so this clearly isn't an explanation for 
the gender percentages we have.


A simpler explanation would be that women are simply interested in other 
past-times. And what's wrong with that?


Joel

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us



___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Joel Holdsworth



The ultimate goal for OSM should be a project which everyone feels
welcome to be a part of, and which does not have a noticeable bias
towards either gender or any given race. Also, please realize just
because women are welcome to participate in OSM, does not necessarily
mean that some women will *feel* they are welcome.



But exactly how is the project unwelcoming? How could the "Edit" button 
be welcoming to men and not women?


I didn't even know the map had strip-clubs or childcare in it - and I've 
been contributing for 10-years, so this clearly isn't an explanation for 
the gender percentages we have.


A simpler explanation would be that women are simply interested in other 
past-times. And what's wrong with that?


Joel

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Shawn K. Quinn
On 09/05/2017 12:48 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:
> Nick,
> 
> This is a study, not a manifesto. All this researcher is doing
> is looking for gender bias, IF it exists, in OSM mapping.
> So, I have to ask, what would you do if she does find certain
> areas of gender bias in OSM and reports them? Would you be
> angry and quit mapping? Would you ignore the report? Or would
> you make subtle changes in your mapping to avoid that bias?
> The choice is yours.
> 
> Charlotte

Well said. Though given the number of tags we have for things like bars,
pubs, brothels, strip clubs, etc versus the lack of tags for child care
facilities, the gender imbalance kind of outs itself. That said, I don't
mind another study to get a current measurement to see if it's gotten
better or worse since the last one.

The ultimate goal for OSM should be a project which everyone feels
welcome to be a part of, and which does not have a noticeable bias
towards either gender or any given race. Also, please realize just
because women are welcome to participate in OSM, does not necessarily
mean that some women will *feel* they are welcome.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Kristin Rollins
The very notion that studying who participates in OSM is divisive is
preposterous.

The very notion that there would be nothing to learn if a project where
"everyone has a chance to contribute if they want to" had a 99% to 1%
gender imbalance is absolutely ridiculous. If there are groups of people
who have a chance to contribute but choose not to participate, the
reasons for that are absolutely worth studying. Are there ways that OSM
could change to encourage more people to participate? Are there ways
that OSM could change how it works in a way that would produce a better
product? Or a more welcoming experience for people who aren't like you?

I also find the idea that learning more about ANYTHING is divisive to be
offensive. I find it difficult to find any legitimate reason for the
vehemence of your responses on this topic.

And, to be frank, if the price of my participation is putting up with
anti-knowledge and faux-egalitarian BS, then I suspect I will be another
woman walking out the door of OSM.

Kristin

-- 
  Kristin Rollins
  g...@kristin.verumsolum.com
  Chesapeake, VA

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017, at 02:27 PM, Joel Holdsworth wrote:
> Because the very notion that it is relevant to study OSM by gender is 
> divisive.
> 
> Who cares what the gender balance of contributors to OSM is? I don't. I 
> didn't even know what the split was until this thread. Because it 
> literally doesn't matter.
> 
> Even it were 99% women, it wouldn't matter. So long as everyone has a 
> chance to contribute if they want to.
> 
> Some people are saying about how awful it is to have a gender bias in 
> the mapped data. If it were 99% women, I would imagine there might be 
> better detail about the women's toilets. In that case, I would add data 
> about the men's. No one owes me an apology, or a commitment to change 
> their mapping habits. The solution starts with me - "Be the change you 
> want to see."
> 
> It's simple - whatever gender, race, social group you are, come and use 
> OSM. If some data you care about is missing, get mapping!
> 
> 
> Joel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 05/09/17 12:14, Charlotte Wolter wrote:
> > 
> > My goodness, all this anxiety! Why are you feeling that
> > you have to justify what you map, just because someone is
> > studying it by gender?
> > 
> > Charlotte
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > At 10:10 AM 9/5/2017, you wrote:
> >> On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 08:25:33 +0200 Marc Gemis  
> >> wrote: > One of the discussion points on her diary entry was female 
> >> hygiene > products found in women's toilets. How is a man going to map 
> >> that, > without access to women's toilets ? > > The real question for 
> >> me is are men more likely going to map shop=car > than 
> >> shop=clothes;clothes=underwear/fashion/ ... (sorry for the > 
> >> stereotyping) > will men map leisure=playground or amenity=pub ? > 
> >> will a roman catholic map a mosque ? > will a non-dog owner map 
> >> leisure=dog_park ? > > in short: will we map everything we see or do 
> >> we map only our > interests ? Furthermore, do we really see everything 
> >> or do we only see > (and map) things we are conditioned to ? > > This 
> >> is not about buildings, addresses, roads and paths. They are
> >> > pretty gender neutral I think. It's about POIs.
> >>
> >> I know I map what I see (or more precisely, what my camera
> >> captures). If it doesn't have a sign out front, I don't map it.
> >> To take an example from the midwives vs. strip clubs debate,
> >> the phone book lists seven midwives and/or midwife groups
> >> in the Spokane area. Of those, three are attached to hospitals
> >> and one to a community-health clinic, and so wouldn't have
> >> signs. Two are operating out of private homes and don't have
> >> signs (and I wouldn't map them if they did, just like I don't map
> >> lawn care or computer repair businesses operating out of
> >> private homes).
> >> The last one is in the 95% of the city I haven't yet photo-mapped.
> >> The phone book lists zero strip clubs in the Spokane area.
> >> Despite that, I've found and mapped one strip club: it was on a
> >> major street and had a clear sign out front.
> >> Yes, there's a bias in my mapping, but it's a bias towards
> >> "things identifiable from the street." I'm more likely to map a car
> >> store than a clothes store, because car stores are generally
> >> not found inside shopping malls. Playgrounds beat pubs,
> >> because every playground is visible from the street.  And this
> >> non-dog-owner didn't map the dog park, because it was
> >> already mapped by the time I got started.
> >>
> >> -- Mark
> >> ___
> >> Talk-us mailing list
> >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org 
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > 
> > Charlotte Wolter
> > 927 18th Street Suite A
> > Santa Monica, California
> > 90403
> > +1-310-597-4040
> > techl...@techlady.com
> > Skype: thetechlady
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _

Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Ian Dees
Hi everybody,

We're going to stop this thread here (at least on the lists I moderate).
Not only is it off-topic for this thread, but we're also off-topic for the
mailing list. Let's remember to keep conversations positive, constructive,
and on topic.

Thanks!
Ian, your friendly list moderator

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Joel Holdsworth 
wrote:

> Because the very notion that it is relevant to study OSM by gender is
> divisive.
>
> Who cares what the gender balance of contributors to OSM is? I don't. I
> didn't even know what the split was until this thread. Because it literally
> doesn't matter.
>
> Even it were 99% women, it wouldn't matter. So long as everyone has a
> chance to contribute if they want to.
>
> Some people are saying about how awful it is to have a gender bias in the
> mapped data. If it were 99% women, I would imagine there might be better
> detail about the women's toilets. In that case, I would add data about the
> men's. No one owes me an apology, or a commitment to change their mapping
> habits. The solution starts with me - "Be the change you want to see."
>
> It's simple - whatever gender, race, social group you are, come and use
> OSM. If some data you care about is missing, get mapping!
>
>
> Joel
>
>
>
>
>
> On 05/09/17 12:14, Charlotte Wolter wrote:
>
>>
>> My goodness, all this anxiety! Why are you feeling that
>> you have to justify what you map, just because someone is
>> studying it by gender?
>>
>> Charlotte
>>
>>
>>
>> At 10:10 AM 9/5/2017, you wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 08:25:33 +0200 Marc Gemis 
>>> wrote: > One of the discussion points on her diary entry was female hygiene
>>> > products found in women's toilets. How is a man going to map that, >
>>> without access to women's toilets ? > > The real question for me is are men
>>> more likely going to map shop=car > than 
>>> shop=clothes;clothes=underwear/fashion/
>>> ... (sorry for the > stereotyping) > will men map leisure=playground or
>>> amenity=pub ? > will a roman catholic map a mosque ? > will a non-dog owner
>>> map leisure=dog_park ? > > in short: will we map everything we see or do we
>>> map only our > interests ? Furthermore, do we really see everything or do
>>> we only see > (and map) things we are conditioned to ? > > This is not
>>> about buildings, addresses, roads and paths. They are
>>> > pretty gender neutral I think. It's about POIs.
>>>
>>> I know I map what I see (or more precisely, what my camera
>>> captures). If it doesn't have a sign out front, I don't map it.
>>> To take an example from the midwives vs. strip clubs debate,
>>> the phone book lists seven midwives and/or midwife groups
>>> in the Spokane area. Of those, three are attached to hospitals
>>> and one to a community-health clinic, and so wouldn't have
>>> signs. Two are operating out of private homes and don't have
>>> signs (and I wouldn't map them if they did, just like I don't map
>>> lawn care or computer repair businesses operating out of
>>> private homes).
>>> The last one is in the 95% of the city I haven't yet photo-mapped.
>>> The phone book lists zero strip clubs in the Spokane area.
>>> Despite that, I've found and mapped one strip club: it was on a
>>> major street and had a clear sign out front.
>>> Yes, there's a bias in my mapping, but it's a bias towards
>>> "things identifiable from the street." I'm more likely to map a car
>>> store than a clothes store, because car stores are generally
>>> not found inside shopping malls. Playgrounds beat pubs,
>>> because every playground is visible from the street.  And this
>>> non-dog-owner didn't map the dog park, because it was
>>> already mapped by the time I got started.
>>>
>>> -- Mark
>>> ___
>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org 
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>>
>>
>> Charlotte Wolter
>> 927 18th Street Suite A
>> Santa Monica, California
>> 90403
>> +1-310-597-4040
>> techl...@techlady.com
>> Skype: thetechlady
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Joel Holdsworth
Because the very notion that it is relevant to study OSM by gender is 
divisive.


Who cares what the gender balance of contributors to OSM is? I don't. I 
didn't even know what the split was until this thread. Because it 
literally doesn't matter.


Even it were 99% women, it wouldn't matter. So long as everyone has a 
chance to contribute if they want to.


Some people are saying about how awful it is to have a gender bias in 
the mapped data. If it were 99% women, I would imagine there might be 
better detail about the women's toilets. In that case, I would add data 
about the men's. No one owes me an apology, or a commitment to change 
their mapping habits. The solution starts with me - "Be the change you 
want to see."


It's simple - whatever gender, race, social group you are, come and use 
OSM. If some data you care about is missing, get mapping!



Joel




On 05/09/17 12:14, Charlotte Wolter wrote:


My goodness, all this anxiety! Why are you feeling that
you have to justify what you map, just because someone is
studying it by gender?

Charlotte



At 10:10 AM 9/5/2017, you wrote:
On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 08:25:33 +0200 Marc Gemis  
wrote: > One of the discussion points on her diary entry was female 
hygiene > products found in women's toilets. How is a man going to map 
that, > without access to women's toilets ? > > The real question for 
me is are men more likely going to map shop=car > than 
shop=clothes;clothes=underwear/fashion/ ... (sorry for the > 
stereotyping) > will men map leisure=playground or amenity=pub ? > 
will a roman catholic map a mosque ? > will a non-dog owner map 
leisure=dog_park ? > > in short: will we map everything we see or do 
we map only our > interests ? Furthermore, do we really see everything 
or do we only see > (and map) things we are conditioned to ? > > This 
is not about buildings, addresses, roads and paths. They are

> pretty gender neutral I think. It's about POIs.

I know I map what I see (or more precisely, what my camera
captures). If it doesn't have a sign out front, I don't map it.
To take an example from the midwives vs. strip clubs debate,
the phone book lists seven midwives and/or midwife groups
in the Spokane area. Of those, three are attached to hospitals
and one to a community-health clinic, and so wouldn't have
signs. Two are operating out of private homes and don't have
signs (and I wouldn't map them if they did, just like I don't map
lawn care or computer repair businesses operating out of
private homes).
The last one is in the 95% of the city I haven't yet photo-mapped.
The phone book lists zero strip clubs in the Spokane area.
Despite that, I've found and mapped one strip club: it was on a
major street and had a clear sign out front.
Yes, there's a bias in my mapping, but it's a bias towards
"things identifiable from the street." I'm more likely to map a car
store than a clothes store, because car stores are generally
not found inside shopping malls. Playgrounds beat pubs,
because every playground is visible from the street.  And this
non-dog-owner didn't map the dog park, because it was
already mapped by the time I got started.

-- Mark
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady



___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us




___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Charlotte Wolter


My goodness, all this anxiety! Why are you feeling that
you have to justify what you map, just because someone is
studying it by gender?

Charlotte



At 10:10 AM 9/5/2017, you wrote:
On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 08:25:33 +0200 Marc Gemis  
wrote: > One of the discussion points on her diary entry was female 
hygiene > products found in women's toilets. How is a man going to 
map that, > without access to women's toilets ? > > The real 
question for me is are men more likely going to map shop=car > than 
shop=clothes;clothes=underwear/fashion/ ... (sorry for the > 
stereotyping) > will men map leisure=playground or amenity=pub ? > 
will a roman catholic map a mosque ? > will a non-dog owner map 
leisure=dog_park ? > > in short: will we map everything we  see or 
do we map only our > interests ? Furthermore, do we really see 
everything or do we only see > (and map) things we are conditioned 
to ? > > This is not about buildings, addresses, roads and paths. They are

> pretty gender neutral I think. It's about POIs.

I know I map what I see (or more precisely, what my camera
captures). If it doesn't have a sign out front, I don't map it.
To take an example from the midwives vs. strip clubs debate,
the phone book lists seven midwives and/or midwife groups
in the Spokane area. Of those, three are attached to hospitals
and one to a community-health clinic, and so wouldn't have
signs. Two are operating out of private homes and don't have
signs (and I wouldn't map them if they did, just like I don't map
lawn care or computer repair businesses operating out of
private homes).
The last one is in the 95% of the city I haven't yet photo-mapped.
The phone book lists zero strip clubs in the Spokane area.
Despite that, I've found and mapped one strip club: it was on a
major street and had a clear sign out front.
Yes, there's a bias in my mapping, but it's a bias towards
"things identifiable from the street." I'm more likely to map a car
store than a clothes store, because car stores are generally
not found inside shopping malls. Playgrounds beat pubs,
because every playground is visible from the street.  And this
non-dog-owner didn't map the dog park, because it was
already mapped by the time I got started.

-- Mark
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Charlotte Wolter

Nick,

This is a study, not a manifesto. All this researcher is doing
is looking for gender bias, IF it exists, in OSM mapping.
So, I have to ask, what would you do if she does find certain
areas of gender bias in OSM and reports them? Would you be
angry and quit mapping? Would you ignore the report? Or would
you make subtle changes in your mapping to avoid that bias?
The choice is yours.

Charlotte


At 02:53 AM 9/5/2017, you wrote:



We are, mostly, volunteers. Therefore I think we should map
whatever takes our fancy and should not feel obliged to spend
our time/money on mapping that we do not want to do willingly.
If the location-based service providers find that certain info is
missing that they would like to have, then maybe they could pay
someone to collect the data, or even better, do it themselves.
If you can convince mappers to alter their mapping habits, well
and good, but trying to shame or threaten them into doing so
will just destroy whatever community there is.
Your statement (highly paraphrased) of "If you don't map what I
want you to map, then nobody is going to want to use your data"
may not be the best way to win people over to your cause.

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Mark Wagner
On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 08:25:33 +0200
Marc Gemis  wrote:

> One of the discussion points on her diary entry was female hygiene
> products found in women's toilets. How is a man going to map that,
> without access to women's toilets ?
> 
> The real question for me is are men more likely going to map shop=car
> than shop=clothes;clothes=underwear/fashion/ ... (sorry for the
> stereotyping)
> will men map leisure=playground or amenity=pub ?
> will a roman catholic map a mosque ?
> will a non-dog owner map leisure=dog_park ?
> 
> in short: will we map everything we  see or do we map only our
> interests ? Furthermore, do we really see everything or do we only see
> (and map) things we are conditioned to ?
> 
> This is not about buildings, addresses, roads and paths. They are
> pretty gender neutral I think. It's about POIs.

I know I map what I see (or more precisely, what my camera captures).
If it doesn't have a sign out front, I don't map it.

To take an example from the midwives vs. strip clubs debate, the phone
book lists seven midwives and/or midwife groups in the Spokane area.  Of
those, three are attached to hospitals and one to a community-health
clinic, and so wouldn't have signs.  Two are operating out of private
homes and don't have signs (and I wouldn't map them if they did, just
like I don't map lawn care or computer repair businesses operating out
of private homes).  The last one is in the 95% of the city I haven't yet
photo-mapped.

The phone book lists zero strip clubs in the Spokane area.  Despite
that, I've found and mapped one strip club: it was on a major street
and had a clear sign out front.

Yes, there's a bias in my mapping, but it's a bias towards "things
identifiable from the street".  I'm more likely to map a car store than
a clothes store, because car stores are generally not found inside
shopping malls. Playgrounds beat pubs, because every playground is
visible from the street.  And this non-dog-owner didn't map the dog
park, because it was already mapped by the time I got started.

-- 
Mark

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Philip Barnes
I am not sure pubs are a good thing to compare but I have certainly mapped 
playgrounds as I find them, no particular interest beyond trying to complete 
the map of my home town. Finding them does take time, they are not as easy to 
map as pubs (big buildings on the main roads).

We are not a huge community hence things like pubs can be surveyed just by 
driving through a place so there is going to be a bias, they are the low 
hanging fruit so to speak. 

Using playgrounds as an example, I believe I have mapped them all in my home 
town, 8 in town of 5000. But mapping such things as playgrounds does take a 
serious amount of time and shoe leather. 

Phil (trigpoint) 


On 5 September 2017 11:43:01 BST, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>While I agree that changing peoples mapping habits is possible by
>posting about certain mapping subjects, or developing apps, I do not
>see why it is wrong to question whether a typical mapper only maps
>what interests him/her or whether they also map other stuff.
>
>I map a lot of items in which I have no personal interest, but because
>I know other people are interested and because I want to work on the
>best map possible.
>Are there other mappers that map e.g. playgrounds (even if they do not
>have children) ? Or are playgrounds mainly mapped by people with young
>children?
>
>Is not it worth to investigate this type of mapping habits ?
>
>
>m
>
>p.s. Who said you have to start mapping what you do not want to map? I
>might have missed this with all the cross posting going on.
>
>On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 12:27 PM, Nick Hocking 
>wrote:
>> This is how it's done
>>
>>
>http://www.dw.com/en/online-map-shows-wheelchair-accessible-locations-worldwide/a-15381244
>>
>> I met this bloke at SOTM Japan some years ago.   He didn't put out a
>> questionaire about whether non-disabled persons tended to tag less
>> accessability tags than disabled persons, because he already knew the
>> answer. He just went out and mapped them, created a website to
>support his
>> interest and got thousands of people interested in his project. Truly
>an
>> inspirational mapper.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>
>___
>Talk-us mailing list
>Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Marc Gemis
While I agree that changing peoples mapping habits is possible by
posting about certain mapping subjects, or developing apps, I do not
see why it is wrong to question whether a typical mapper only maps
what interests him/her or whether they also map other stuff.

I map a lot of items in which I have no personal interest, but because
I know other people are interested and because I want to work on the
best map possible.
Are there other mappers that map e.g. playgrounds (even if they do not
have children) ? Or are playgrounds mainly mapped by people with young
children?

Is not it worth to investigate this type of mapping habits ?


m

p.s. Who said you have to start mapping what you do not want to map? I
might have missed this with all the cross posting going on.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 12:27 PM, Nick Hocking  wrote:
> This is how it's done
>
> http://www.dw.com/en/online-map-shows-wheelchair-accessible-locations-worldwide/a-15381244
>
> I met this bloke at SOTM Japan some years ago.   He didn't put out a
> questionaire about whether non-disabled persons tended to tag less
> accessability tags than disabled persons, because he already knew the
> answer. He just went out and mapped them, created a website to support his
> interest and got thousands of people interested in his project. Truly an
> inspirational mapper.
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Nick Hocking
This is how it's done

http://www.dw.com/en/online-map-shows-wheelchair-accessible-locations-worldwide/a-15381244

I met this bloke at SOTM Japan some years ago.   He didn't put out a
questionaire about whether non-disabled persons tended to tag less
accessability tags than disabled persons, because he already knew the
answer. He just went out and mapped them, created a website to support his
interest and got thousands of people interested in his project. Truly an
inspirational mapper.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Rihards
On 2017.09.05. 12:53, Nick Hocking wrote:
> We are ,mostly, volunteers.  Therefore I think we should map whatever
> takes our fancy and should not feel obliged to spend our time/money on
> mapping that we do not want to do willingly.
> 
> If the location based service providers find that certain info is
> missing that they would like to have then maybe they could pay someone
> to collect the data, or even better, do it themselves.
> 
> If you can convince mappers to alter their mapping habits, well and
> good, but trying to shame or threaten them into doing so will just
> destroy whatever community there is.
> 
> Your statement (highly paraphrased) of "If you don't map what I want you
> to map, then nobody is going to want to use your data" may not be the
> best way to win people over to your cause.
wtf, man. the analysis that Frederik showed to be deeply flawed before
is one thing, but this reaction is just wtf.
-- 
 Rihards

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Nick Hocking
We are ,mostly, volunteers.  Therefore I think we should map whatever takes
our fancy and should not feel obliged to spend our time/money on mapping
that we do not want to do willingly.

If the location based service providers find that certain info is missing
that they would like to have then maybe they could pay someone to collect
the data, or even better, do it themselves.

If you can convince mappers to alter their mapping habits, well and good,
but trying to shame or threaten them into doing so will just destroy
whatever community there is.

Your statement (highly paraphrased) of "If you don't map what I want you to
map, then nobody is going to want to use your data" may not be the best way
to win people over to your cause.
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-05 Thread Dave Swarthout
Zoe,

Reading these responses helps me understand why you are doing what you're
doing. It's almost laughable that some male mappers responded with, well,
sexist remarks concerning your work. People are not usually aware of the
biases they introduce and that's why researchers must use statistical
analyses and double blind tests to evaluate new drugs, consumer trends and
preferences, etc. I'm reasonably sure OSM is no different. I know that a
portion of my mapping effort tends to concentrate on areas and things that
are of interest to me and while I don't think my being a man has much to do
with it, I would be curious to see if your research shows something
different. Towards that end, I'd be happy to cooperate with your effort to
clarify the situation.

Best wishes,

Dave (aka AlaskaDave)

On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> One of the discussion points on her diary entry was female hygiene
> products found in women's toilets. How is a man going to map that,
> without access to women's toilets ?
>
> The real question for me is are men more likely going to map shop=car
> than shop=clothes;clothes=underwear/fashion/ ... (sorry for the
> stereotyping)
> will men map leisure=playground or amenity=pub ?
> will a roman catholic map a mosque ?
> will a non-dog owner map leisure=dog_park ?
>
> in short: will we map everything we  see or do we map only our
> interests ? Furthermore, do we really see everything or do we only see
> (and map) things we are conditioned to ?
>
> This is not about buildings, addresses, roads and paths. They are
> pretty gender neutral I think. It's about POIs.
>
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 6:24 AM, Greg Morgan 
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Zoe Gardner 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear OSM talk subscriber
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am a Research Fellow in the Nottingham Geospatial Institute at the
> >> University of Nottingham in the UK, interested in participation biases
> in
> >> geospatial crowdsourced projects such as OSM and other Volunteered
> >> Geographical Information (VGI) projects. My current research project is
> >> concerned with the way in which participation biases in OSM may
> potentially
> >> affect the usability of the data that is collected and subsequently
> what is
> >> available to location based service providers which use OSM as their
> primary
> >> geospatial database.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The project is motivated by recent research that has found a strong male
> >> bias in OSM participation. This has led to assertions that various
> >> geospatial knowledge could be under represented or poorly recorded on
> the
> >> map.
> >
> >
> > Zoe,
> >
> > I believe that you need to go back to the drawing board.  OSM is not
> about
> > gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation. OSM is about people with
> > leisure time that are willing to spend to add nodes to a map.  If I like
> to
> > add buidlings to the map, there is nothing about those nodes and one way
> > that compose the building that would discriminate or leave out
> information
> > based on gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation.
> >
> > This sounds like one of those surveys designed to damage OSM.
> > "data that is collected and subsequently what is available to location
> based
> > service providers"
> > That statement sound like you are performing research for a vendor that
> > cannot compete with OSM.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> >
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>



-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-04 Thread Marc Gemis
One of the discussion points on her diary entry was female hygiene
products found in women's toilets. How is a man going to map that,
without access to women's toilets ?

The real question for me is are men more likely going to map shop=car
than shop=clothes;clothes=underwear/fashion/ ... (sorry for the
stereotyping)
will men map leisure=playground or amenity=pub ?
will a roman catholic map a mosque ?
will a non-dog owner map leisure=dog_park ?

in short: will we map everything we  see or do we map only our
interests ? Furthermore, do we really see everything or do we only see
(and map) things we are conditioned to ?

This is not about buildings, addresses, roads and paths. They are
pretty gender neutral I think. It's about POIs.


regards

m.



On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 6:24 AM, Greg Morgan  wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Zoe Gardner  wrote:
>>
>> Dear OSM talk subscriber
>>
>>
>>
>> I am a Research Fellow in the Nottingham Geospatial Institute at the
>> University of Nottingham in the UK, interested in participation biases in
>> geospatial crowdsourced projects such as OSM and other Volunteered
>> Geographical Information (VGI) projects. My current research project is
>> concerned with the way in which participation biases in OSM may potentially
>> affect the usability of the data that is collected and subsequently what is
>> available to location based service providers which use OSM as their primary
>> geospatial database.
>>
>>
>>
>> The project is motivated by recent research that has found a strong male
>> bias in OSM participation. This has led to assertions that various
>> geospatial knowledge could be under represented or poorly recorded on the
>> map.
>
>
> Zoe,
>
> I believe that you need to go back to the drawing board.  OSM is not about
> gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation. OSM is about people with
> leisure time that are willing to spend to add nodes to a map.  If I like to
> add buidlings to the map, there is nothing about those nodes and one way
> that compose the building that would discriminate or leave out information
> based on gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation.
>
> This sounds like one of those surveys designed to damage OSM.
> "data that is collected and subsequently what is available to location based
> service providers"
> That statement sound like you are performing research for a vendor that
> cannot compete with OSM.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>

___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-04 Thread Joel Holdsworth
Zoe, I'm not surprised that most OSM contributors are blokes. But what would 
make you think that indicates any kind of bias? People choose what they want to 
give their time to. I really don't mind what demographics contribute - it 
doesn't matter, so long as it's open to all - which osm certainly is.

You should talk to a psychologist - they would be able to explain why the 
demographics are what they are, but that's academic as far as I'm concerned. 

Best Regards
Joel Holdsworth

On September 4, 2017 4:45:27 AM MDT, Zoe Gardner  wrote:
>Dear OSM talk subscriber
>
> 
>
>I am a Research Fellow in the Nottingham Geospatial Institute at the
>University of Nottingham in the UK, interested in participation biases
>in geospatial crowdsourced projects such as OSM and other Volunteered
>Geographical Information (VGI) projects. My current research project is
>concerned with the way in which participation biases in OSM may
>potentially affect the usability of the data that is collected and
>subsequently what is available to location based service providers
>which use OSM as their primary geospatial database.
>
> 
>
>The project is motivated by recent research that has found a strong
>male bias in OSM participation. This has led to assertions that various
>geospatial knowledge could be under represented or poorly recorded on
>the map. However, the actual consequences of this bias remain little
>explored or reported. By collecting information about contributors to
>OSM, which can then be analyzed along with their editing patterns, the
>impacts of this bias might begin to be measured and therefore better
>understood. I have therefore published an online survey designed to
>collect information directly from OSM editors and I would like to
>invite as many of you as possible to participate. The survey is
>anonymous and takes a couple of minutes to complete.
>
> 
>
>If you are an OSM contributor and are interested in or would like to
>participate in the study, please click on the link below, which will
>take you to the Bristol Online Survey website where you will find more
>information and an opportunity to participate in the survey. As a small
>incentive, at the close of the survey in a few weeks’ time, 60
>respondents will be drawn at random to receive a £15 Amazon voucher.
>
> 
>
>To participate in the survey, click on the link below:
>
> 
>
>https://nottingham.onlinesurveys.ac.uk/osm-user-profiles
>
> 
>
>Please do think about participating. It is hoped that knowledge about
>the way participation biases impact on crowdsourced maps will enable
>new strategies to be developed to address any resulting voids in the
>geospatial information provided by amateur mappers. In turn this could
>strengthen the role played by platforms such as OSM in urban planning
>and sustainability and raise the profile of the important mapping work
>that you all do.
>
> 
>
>In the meantime, if you would like to know more about me, my research
>activities or the project, please visit my University webpage (link
>below) and do not hesitate to get in touch directly or via the OSM
>messaging service.
>
> 
>
>https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/engineering/people/zoe.gardner
>
> 
>
>Thank you
>
>Zoe
>
> 
>
> 

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


Re: [Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-04 Thread Greg Morgan
On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Zoe Gardner  wrote:

> Dear OSM talk subscriber
>
>
>
> I am a Research Fellow in the Nottingham Geospatial Institute at the
> University of Nottingham in the UK, interested in participation biases in
> geospatial crowdsourced projects such as OSM and other Volunteered
> Geographical Information (VGI) projects. My current research project is
> concerned with the way in which participation biases in OSM may potentially
> affect the usability of the data that is collected and subsequently what is
> available to location based service providers which use OSM as their
> primary geospatial database.
>
>
>
> The project is motivated by recent research that has found a strong male
> bias in OSM participation. This has led to assertions that various
> geospatial knowledge could be under represented or poorly recorded on the
> map.
>

Zoe,

I believe that you need to go back to the drawing board.  OSM is not about
gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation. OSM is about people with
leisure time that are willing to spend to add nodes to a map.  If I like to
add buidlings to the map, there is nothing about those nodes and one way
that compose the building that would discriminate or leave out information
based on gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation.

This sounds like one of those surveys designed to damage OSM.
"data that is collected and subsequently what is available to location
based service providers"
That statement sound like you are performing research for a vendor that
cannot compete with OSM.

Regards,
Greg
___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


[Talk-us] Open survey on participation biases in OSM

2017-09-04 Thread Zoe Gardner
Dear OSM talk subscriber

 

I am a Research Fellow in the Nottingham Geospatial Institute at the University 
of Nottingham in the UK, interested in participation biases in geospatial 
crowdsourced projects such as OSM and other Volunteered Geographical 
Information (VGI) projects. My current research project is concerned with the 
way in which participation biases in OSM may potentially affect the usability 
of the data that is collected and subsequently what is available to location 
based service providers which use OSM as their primary geospatial database.

 

The project is motivated by recent research that has found a strong male bias 
in OSM participation. This has led to assertions that various geospatial 
knowledge could be under represented or poorly recorded on the map. However, 
the actual consequences of this bias remain little explored or reported. By 
collecting information about contributors to OSM, which can then be analyzed 
along with their editing patterns, the impacts of this bias might begin to be 
measured and therefore better understood. I have therefore published an online 
survey designed to collect information directly from OSM editors and I would 
like to invite as many of you as possible to participate. The survey is 
anonymous and takes a couple of minutes to complete.

 

If you are an OSM contributor and are interested in or would like to 
participate in the study, please click on the link below, which will take you 
to the Bristol Online Survey website where you will find more information and 
an opportunity to participate in the survey. As a small incentive, at the close 
of the survey in a few weeks’ time, 60 respondents will be drawn at random to 
receive a £15 Amazon voucher.

 

To participate in the survey, click on the link below:

 

https://nottingham.onlinesurveys.ac.uk/osm-user-profiles 

 

Please do think about participating. It is hoped that knowledge about the way 
participation biases impact on crowdsourced maps will enable new strategies to 
be developed to address any resulting voids in the geospatial information 
provided by amateur mappers. In turn this could strengthen the role played by 
platforms such as OSM in urban planning and sustainability and raise the 
profile of the important mapping work that you all do.

 

In the meantime, if you would like to know more about me, my research 
activities or the project, please visit my University webpage (link below) and 
do not hesitate to get in touch directly or via the OSM messaging service.

 

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/engineering/people/zoe.gardner 

 

Thank you

Zoe

 

 ___
Talk-us mailing list
Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us