Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
Dave Hansen wrote: > I know the current turn restriction relations aren't suited for it. > But, instead of tagging "left turn restriction from X to Y" shouldn't we > be tagging "the pavement has an arrow that says left turn only"? See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn Alexander ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Michael Patrick wrote: > FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty cool, > one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter Expert! ;-) > > Michael > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: FHP > Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:08 AM > Subject: RE: Legal Intersection Crossing > To: Michael Patrick > > > Dear Michael, > > ** ** > > Thanks for your inquiry. Your question is: > > ** ** > > The maneuver in question is whether one can proceed from the off ramp stop > line, proceed perpendicular across Buena Vista Dr. , and enter onto the > southbound onramp back onto southbound World Drive. > > ** ** > > The answer is *“not without violating Florida law”.* > Based on this response I've gone ahead and put the turn restriction back in: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/14997729 I'd appreciate it if further disputes on this matter directly involve the Data Working Group. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
> Someone better add the routing restriction to this:
>
> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=dale+mabry+and+ehrlich,+tampa&hl=en&ll=28.08305,-82.505677&spn=0.000588,0.000426&sll=28.083838,-82.505216&sspn=0.002339,0.001706&t=h&hnear=Dale+Mabry+Hwy+%26+Ehrlich+Rd,+Tampa,+Florida+33618&z=21
>
> Along with the thousands of other places where this occurs.
>
Not necessarily - it is the 'system' of markings in a particular situation,
See offline comments below.
Michael
-- Forwarded message --
From: Michael Patrick
Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
To: Nathan Edgars II
> That passage from the Florida Driver Handbook is not based in law, but
seems to have been made up. Florida has adopted the MUTCD, which defines a
single white line as having no restrictive meaning. The FHP's ignorance of
the law is troubling but not surprising.
The engineer here says there is no one specific meaning for a single white
line ( 'sort of'', I think what you mean). That being said, it's the full *
system* of markers that deliver the intent and meaning, a single white line
can appear in many different places, to restrict movement in and out from
'trap lanes', or more specifically, when it is used in sequence with normal
dashed line, to close dashes (warning), to a solid line (lane restriction,
and eventually to the gore triangle. He said the solid white line is for
all intents and purposes regarded as part of the gore marking and is
illegal to cross ( even though it is not 'doubled' as mentioned below). See
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part3/fig3b_08_1_longdesc.htm ) The
MUTEC is a design guideline, state and local standards can supersede or
deviate with their own published standards, and there is a huge amount of
legacy markings which are gradually upgraded during maintenance. Law
enforcement 'interprets' MUTEC in conjunction with other guidelines ("Uniform
Vehicle Code (UVC)" from the National Committee on Uniform Traffic Laws ),
and local ordinance.
For what it's worth, if I had pulled off on the exit, checked my trailer
lights, and proceeded to the top of the lamp, I probably would have went
straight through, because of the double signal configuration and position (
unless both green were left arrows), and the gore line isn't awfully
visible, and traffic probably would have been stopped on all three lanes on
Buena Vista Drive. Having done it once, though, I personally wouldn't do it
again.
> ... it's a little ridiculous that this dispute is going so far that
anyone even consulted an expert.
Ooops! Sorry, I talked to an expert. Again. Sigh. I should have realized
that the routing in question is transecting the intersection of two
alternate realities, OSM and also within a mile of The Magic of Disney
Animation. So instead of the Florida Highway Patrol, I've forwarded the
question to the staff at the co-located Twilight Zone Theater and the cast
and characters of
'Cars'<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/Cars_2006.jpg>
for
a more OSM suitable answer.
> Obviously NE2 is wrong; we get it.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. (Once if it's showing 24 ... )
Michael
Reference:--
Not exactly the same situation, but related:
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/faqs/faq_part3.htm#q7
1. *Q: Does a solid white lane line prohibit crossing to change lanes on
the approach to an intersection?*
*A:* MUTCD Section 3B.04 says to use a single solid white line to
"discourage" crossing the lane line and a double white line to prohibit
crossing it. A single solid white line is used for a variety of lines that
drivers should be discouraged from crossing in "normal" situations but
which drivers do need to cross in some situations. An example is the "edge
line"---the line that separates the rightmost travel lane from the
shoulder. The single solid white line discourages crossing onto the
shoulder but does not prohibit it because it is obviously desirable and/or
necessary to cross it in some situations, such as an emergency stop. The
MUTCD sets the national standards for pavement markings, but it does not
establish what the laws of the individual States may define as the legal
meanings of various types of lines in each State. Some States may have laws
that prohibit crossing a single solid white line in specific circumstances.
Some states also have laws that go beyond just the meaning of the lines, by
making certain driving maneuvers illegal under certain situations
regardless of the markings, such as changing lanes when it is "unsafe to do
so".
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/faqs/faq_part3.htm#q8
1. *Q: How far in advance of a lane drop should the special lane drop
markings begin?*
*A:* For a lane drop
Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
If it wasn't this dispute then it would have been another. At least now there's a precedent set for ground truth and following the local laws. One of the premises of OSM is that crowd-sourcing and local knowledge improves the quality of the maps, I think this conversation and eventual legal conclusion attained by going to the local authorities is exactly what OSM is about. On Feb 11, 2013, at 12:22 PM, Clay Smalley wrote: > I think it's a little ridiculous that this dispute is going so far that > anyone even consulted an expert. Obviously NE2 is wrong; we get it. This dead > horse hasn't just been beaten; it's been liquefied. Let's just let the OSM > gods deal with it, and go on with our lives. > > On Feb 11, 2013 10:35 AM, "Michael Patrick" wrote: > FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty cool, one > can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter Expert! ;-) > > Michael > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: FHP > Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:08 AM > Subject: RE: Legal Intersection Crossing > To: Michael Patrick > > > Dear Michael, > > > > Thanks for your inquiry. Your question is: > > > > The maneuver in question is whether one can proceed from the off ramp stop > line, proceed perpendicular across Buena Vista Dr. , and enter onto the > southbound onramp back onto southbound World Drive. > > > > The answer is “not without violating Florida law”. > > > > Point #1: The off ramp lane in your scenario is clearly marked as a “Left > Turn Only” lane by the turn arrows painted on the roadway. In your scenario, > instead of making a legal left turn, you would drive straight across the > intersection and cross a “solid white line” and enter a “Right turn only > lane” as indicated by the right turn arrows painted on the roadway. > > > > Point #2: The right turn lane on Buena Vista Dr in which you would be > entering, has a solid white line on both sides of the lane which means that a > vehicle that has lawfully entered the lane cannot exit or change lanes and no > other vehicles are permitted to cross the solid white line to enter the lane > at that location. > > > > The Florida Driver Handbook states on page 47: > > > > Solid White Line > > A solid white line marks the right edge of the roadway or separates lanes of > traffic moving in the > > same direction. You may travel in the same direction on both sides of this > line, but you should > > not cross the line unless you must do so to avoid a hazard. > > > > Since no hazard exit, this would be a violation of Florida Law. > > > > Customer Service Center > > Correspondence/Email Unit > > Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles > > www.flhsmv.gov > > > > > The Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles is committed to Service, > Integrity, Courtesy, Professionalism, Innovation and Excellence in all we do. > Please let us know how we are doing via our online customer service survey at > https://www.research.net/s/MLR9RGC. > > > > From: Michael Patrick [mailto:geodes...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 1:47 AM > To: FHP > Subject: Legal Intersection Crossing > > > > We are embedding turn restrictions in automated routing software. > > > > What is contested: > > > > The general area is west of Epcot Center, the end of the southbound off ramp > from southbound World Drive to the intersection with Buena Vista Dr. > > See attached photo BuenaVistaDrive-004.jpg ( or > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2S25sLXRLUW4wb0E/edit?usp=sharing ) > > > > The maneuver in question is whether one can proceed from the off ramp stop > line, proceed perpendicular across Buena Vista Dr. , and enter onto the > southbound on ramp back onto southbound World Drive. This is shown as the > red arrow on BuenaVistaDrive-001.jpg ( or see > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2M0lIY0RoUUEzUTA/edit?usp=sharing ) > > > > This seems to be indicated because of the double signal visible from the off > ramp stop line, even though at this point the road is a single lane. > Also,there is a white left turn pavement arrow on the exit ramp. > > See the red arrow on BuenaVistaDrive-002.jpg ( or > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2em84TG1jb2hTcTQ/edit?usp=sharing ) > > > > Superficially, at least, it seems possible to do this without crossing the > gore markers in the intersection. > > BuenaVistaDrive-003.jpg ( or > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2X1RKVzI3RXdzQzA/edit?usp=sharing ) > > > > Also, although there is only a double signal on Buena Vista Dr. eastbound at > this intersection, the stop line extends all the way across all three lanes > of traffic, including the exit only onto the southbound World Drive ramp. > > BuenaVistaDrive-005.jpg ( or > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2YlotaTVMRHA2OW8/edit?usp=sharing ) > > > > After
Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
I think it's a little ridiculous that this dispute is going so far that anyone even consulted an expert. Obviously NE2 is wrong; we get it. This dead horse hasn't just been beaten; it's been liquefied. Let's just let the OSM gods deal with it, and go on with our lives. On Feb 11, 2013 10:35 AM, "Michael Patrick" wrote: > FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty cool, > one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter Expert! ;-) > > Michael > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: FHP > Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:08 AM > Subject: RE: Legal Intersection Crossing > To: Michael Patrick > > > Dear Michael, > > ** ** > > Thanks for your inquiry. Your question is: > > ** ** > > The maneuver in question is whether one can proceed from the off ramp stop > line, proceed perpendicular across Buena Vista Dr. , and enter onto the > southbound onramp back onto southbound World Drive. > > ** ** > > The answer is *“not without violating Florida law”.* > > ** ** > > Point #1: The off ramp lane in your scenario is clearly marked as a “Left > Turn Only” lane by the turn arrows painted on the roadway. In your > scenario, instead of making a legal left turn, you would drive straight > across the intersection and cross a “solid white line” and enter a “Right > turn only lane” as indicated by the right turn arrows painted on the > roadway. > > ** ** > > Point #2: The right turn lane on Buena Vista Dr in which you would be > entering, has a *solid white line* on both sides of the lane which means > that a vehicle that has lawfully entered the lane cannot exit or change > lanes and no other vehicles are permitted to cross the solid white line to > enter the lane at that location. > > ** ** > > The Florida Driver Handbook states on page 47: > > ** ** > > *Solid White Line* > > A solid white line marks the right edge of the roadway or separates lanes > of traffic moving in the > > same direction. You may travel in the same direction on both sides of this > line, but you should > > not cross the line unless you must do so to avoid a hazard. > > ** ** > > Since no hazard exit, this would be a violation of Florida Law. > > ** ** > > *Customer Service Center* > > *Correspondence/Email Unit* > > *Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles* > > *www.flhsmv.gov*** > > ** ** > > > The Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles is committed to > Service, Integrity, Courtesy, Professionalism, Innovation and Excellence in > all we do. Please let us know how we are doing via our online customer > service survey at *https://www.research.net/s/MLR9RGC.* > > ** > > > *From:* Michael Patrick [mailto:geodes...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 11, 2013 1:47 AM > *To:* FHP > *Subject:* Legal Intersection Crossing > > ** ** > > We are embedding turn restrictions in automated routing software. > > ** ** > > What is contested: > > ** ** > > The general area is west of Epcot Center, the end of the southbound off > ramp from southbound World Drive to the intersection with Buena Vista Dr.* > *** > > See attached photo BuenaVistaDrive-004.jpg ( or > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2S25sLXRLUW4wb0E/edit?usp=sharing > ) > > ** ** > > The maneuver in question is whether one can proceed from the off ramp stop > line, proceed perpendicular across Buena Vista Dr. , and enter onto the > southbound on ramp back onto southbound World Drive. This is shown as the > red arrow on BuenaVistaDrive-001.jpg ( or see > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2M0lIY0RoUUEzUTA/edit?usp=sharing) > > > ** ** > > This seems to be indicated because of the double signal visible from the > off ramp stop line, even though at this point the road is a single lane. > Also,there is a white left turn pavement arrow on the exit ramp. > > See the red arrow on BuenaVistaDrive-002.jpg ( or > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2em84TG1jb2hTcTQ/edit?usp=sharing) > > > ** ** > > Superficially, at least, it seems possible to do this without crossing the > gore markers in the intersection. > > BuenaVistaDrive-003.jpg ( or > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2X1RKVzI3RXdzQzA/edit?usp=sharing) > > > ** ** > > Also, although there is only a double signal on Buena Vista Dr. eastbound > at this intersection, the stop line extends all the way across all three > lanes of traffic, including the exit only onto the southbound World Drive > ramp. > > BuenaVistaDrive-005.jpg ( or > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2YlotaTVMRHA2OW8/edit?usp=sharing) > > > ** ** > > After researching the Federal Highway Standards, the Florida Driver's > Manual, etc. we were unable to make a conclusion. ** > > ** ** > > Thank you for your time and consideration, > > ** ** > > Michael Patrick > > Open Street Map > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/ > > ** ** >
Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
So can we revert NE2's revert from last night? On Feb 11, 2013 10:35 AM, "Michael Patrick" wrote: > FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty cool, > one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter Expert! ;-) > > Michael > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: FHP > Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:08 AM > Subject: RE: Legal Intersection Crossing > To: Michael Patrick > > > Dear Michael, > > ** ** > > Thanks for your inquiry. Your question is: > > ** ** > > The maneuver in question is whether one can proceed from the off ramp stop > line, proceed perpendicular across Buena Vista Dr. , and enter onto the > southbound onramp back onto southbound World Drive. > > ** ** > > The answer is *“not without violating Florida law”.* > > ** ** > > Point #1: The off ramp lane in your scenario is clearly marked as a “Left > Turn Only” lane by the turn arrows painted on the roadway. In your > scenario, instead of making a legal left turn, you would drive straight > across the intersection and cross a “solid white line” and enter a “Right > turn only lane” as indicated by the right turn arrows painted on the > roadway. > > ** ** > > Point #2: The right turn lane on Buena Vista Dr in which you would be > entering, has a *solid white line* on both sides of the lane which means > that a vehicle that has lawfully entered the lane cannot exit or change > lanes and no other vehicles are permitted to cross the solid white line to > enter the lane at that location. > > ** ** > > The Florida Driver Handbook states on page 47: > > ** ** > > *Solid White Line* > > A solid white line marks the right edge of the roadway or separates lanes > of traffic moving in the > > same direction. You may travel in the same direction on both sides of this > line, but you should > > not cross the line unless you must do so to avoid a hazard. > > ** ** > > Since no hazard exit, this would be a violation of Florida Law. > > ** ** > > *Customer Service Center* > > *Correspondence/Email Unit* > > *Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles* > > *www.flhsmv.gov*** > > ** ** > > > The Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles is committed to > Service, Integrity, Courtesy, Professionalism, Innovation and Excellence in > all we do. Please let us know how we are doing via our online customer > service survey at *https://www.research.net/s/MLR9RGC.* > > ** > > > *From:* Michael Patrick [mailto:geodes...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 11, 2013 1:47 AM > *To:* FHP > *Subject:* Legal Intersection Crossing > > ** ** > > We are embedding turn restrictions in automated routing software. > > ** ** > > What is contested: > > ** ** > > The general area is west of Epcot Center, the end of the southbound off > ramp from southbound World Drive to the intersection with Buena Vista Dr.* > *** > > See attached photo BuenaVistaDrive-004.jpg ( or > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2S25sLXRLUW4wb0E/edit?usp=sharing > ) > > ** ** > > The maneuver in question is whether one can proceed from the off ramp stop > line, proceed perpendicular across Buena Vista Dr. , and enter onto the > southbound on ramp back onto southbound World Drive. This is shown as the > red arrow on BuenaVistaDrive-001.jpg ( or see > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2M0lIY0RoUUEzUTA/edit?usp=sharing) > > > ** ** > > This seems to be indicated because of the double signal visible from the > off ramp stop line, even though at this point the road is a single lane. > Also,there is a white left turn pavement arrow on the exit ramp. > > See the red arrow on BuenaVistaDrive-002.jpg ( or > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2em84TG1jb2hTcTQ/edit?usp=sharing) > > > ** ** > > Superficially, at least, it seems possible to do this without crossing the > gore markers in the intersection. > > BuenaVistaDrive-003.jpg ( or > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2X1RKVzI3RXdzQzA/edit?usp=sharing) > > > ** ** > > Also, although there is only a double signal on Buena Vista Dr. eastbound > at this intersection, the stop line extends all the way across all three > lanes of traffic, including the exit only onto the southbound World Drive > ramp. > > BuenaVistaDrive-005.jpg ( or > > > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2YlotaTVMRHA2OW8/edit?usp=sharing) > > > ** ** > > After researching the Federal Highway Standards, the Florida Driver's > Manual, etc. we were unable to make a conclusion. ** > > ** ** > > Thank you for your time and consideration, > > ** ** > > Michael Patrick > > Open Street Map > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/ > > ** ** > > ** ** > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > > ___ Talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
Dave Hansen wrote: > On 02/11/2013 08:34 AM, Michael Patrick wrote: > > FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty > cool, > > one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter > Expert! ;-) > > While I admire the resourcefulness, I do question whether we're doing > "the right thing" if we are trying to interpret the law in this way. > We're obviously ill-equipped to do so ourselves. > > I know the current turn restriction relations aren't suited for it. > But, instead of tagging "left turn restriction from X to Y" shouldn't > we > be tagging "the pavement has an arrow that says left turn only"? > > One of those requires interpretation and is subject to the law > changing > or being interpreted differently. The other is only subject to change > if someone goes out and scrapes the arrow off the pavement. > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Well, you are then placing the burden of interpreting the legal meaning of the markings on the person who writes the routing software, and who may not even live in the country in question. I think the combination of a local mapper, and, if necessary, checking with the government department regulating such matters, as was done in this case, is better than the method you proposed. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
On 02/11/2013 08:34 AM, Michael Patrick wrote: > FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty cool, > one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter Expert! ;-) While I admire the resourcefulness, I do question whether we're doing "the right thing" if we are trying to interpret the law in this way. We're obviously ill-equipped to do so ourselves. I know the current turn restriction relations aren't suited for it. But, instead of tagging "left turn restriction from X to Y" shouldn't we be tagging "the pavement has an arrow that says left turn only"? One of those requires interpretation and is subject to the law changing or being interpreted differently. The other is only subject to change if someone goes out and scrapes the arrow off the pavement. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty cool, one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter Expert! ;-) Michael -- Forwarded message -- From: FHP Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:08 AM Subject: RE: Legal Intersection Crossing To: Michael Patrick Dear Michael, ** ** Thanks for your inquiry. Your question is: ** ** The maneuver in question is whether one can proceed from the off ramp stop line, proceed perpendicular across Buena Vista Dr. , and enter onto the southbound onramp back onto southbound World Drive. ** ** The answer is *“not without violating Florida law”.* ** ** Point #1: The off ramp lane in your scenario is clearly marked as a “Left Turn Only” lane by the turn arrows painted on the roadway. In your scenario, instead of making a legal left turn, you would drive straight across the intersection and cross a “solid white line” and enter a “Right turn only lane” as indicated by the right turn arrows painted on the roadway. ** ** Point #2: The right turn lane on Buena Vista Dr in which you would be entering, has a *solid white line* on both sides of the lane which means that a vehicle that has lawfully entered the lane cannot exit or change lanes and no other vehicles are permitted to cross the solid white line to enter the lane at that location. ** ** The Florida Driver Handbook states on page 47: ** ** *Solid White Line* A solid white line marks the right edge of the roadway or separates lanes of traffic moving in the same direction. You may travel in the same direction on both sides of this line, but you should not cross the line unless you must do so to avoid a hazard. ** ** Since no hazard exit, this would be a violation of Florida Law. ** ** *Customer Service Center* *Correspondence/Email Unit* *Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles* *www.flhsmv.gov*** ** ** The Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles is committed to Service, Integrity, Courtesy, Professionalism, Innovation and Excellence in all we do. Please let us know how we are doing via our online customer service survey at *https://www.research.net/s/MLR9RGC.* ** *From:* Michael Patrick [mailto:geodes...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, February 11, 2013 1:47 AM *To:* FHP *Subject:* Legal Intersection Crossing ** ** We are embedding turn restrictions in automated routing software. ** ** What is contested: ** ** The general area is west of Epcot Center, the end of the southbound off ramp from southbound World Drive to the intersection with Buena Vista Dr.*** * See attached photo BuenaVistaDrive-004.jpg ( or https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2S25sLXRLUW4wb0E/edit?usp=sharing ) ** ** The maneuver in question is whether one can proceed from the off ramp stop line, proceed perpendicular across Buena Vista Dr. , and enter onto the southbound on ramp back onto southbound World Drive. This is shown as the red arrow on BuenaVistaDrive-001.jpg ( or see https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2M0lIY0RoUUEzUTA/edit?usp=sharing) ** ** This seems to be indicated because of the double signal visible from the off ramp stop line, even though at this point the road is a single lane. Also,there is a white left turn pavement arrow on the exit ramp. See the red arrow on BuenaVistaDrive-002.jpg ( or https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2em84TG1jb2hTcTQ/edit?usp=sharing) ** ** Superficially, at least, it seems possible to do this without crossing the gore markers in the intersection. BuenaVistaDrive-003.jpg ( or https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2X1RKVzI3RXdzQzA/edit?usp=sharing) ** ** Also, although there is only a double signal on Buena Vista Dr. eastbound at this intersection, the stop line extends all the way across all three lanes of traffic, including the exit only onto the southbound World Drive ramp. BuenaVistaDrive-005.jpg ( or https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxor0dnxUrN2YlotaTVMRHA2OW8/edit?usp=sharing) ** ** After researching the Federal Highway Standards, the Florida Driver's Manual, etc. we were unable to make a conclusion. ** ** ** Thank you for your time and consideration, ** ** Michael Patrick Open Street Map http://www.openstreetmap.org/ ** ** ** ** ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
