Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
russ wrote: > If you' re editing in the US using JOSM, and you find that many roads > now have a yellow tinge about them, it's all my fault. I'm on a > campaign to get every road in the USA reviewed, which means marking > them as reviewed, which means removing tiger:reviewed=no. There's a > lotta lotta roads in the US which are correct, but how would anybody > know unless they've been reviewed? And without showing people that > the roads haven't been reviewed yet, it's hard to find the unreviewed > ones. wow. this seems like a huuuge undertaking. given how many roads will need reviewing, what's the absolute most efficient way to do so? say, for instance, that you live in an area and know from experience that the tiger data is correct? is there a super-quick way of removing the "reviewed" tag from a bunch of roads at once? (i assume removal is the goal, as opposed to editing it to "yes"?) paul =- paul fox, p...@foxharp.boston.ma.us (arlington, ma, where it's 62.8 degrees) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Apr 22, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Paul Fox wrote: Hey there, Paul, I'm glad to see you working on OSM. > > given how many roads will need reviewing, what's the absolute > most efficient way to do so? In JOSM, select all the roads. You can do this using several methods: o Search for certain tags. For example, if you've downloaded a small section, and you've reviewed every street name and location, you can search for "tiger:reviewed" to catch all the unreviewed ways. o Draw a box around the ways. o Shift-click on way after way after way (Control-click if you select too much). When you've selected everything you want to mark as reviewed, go to the Properties box on the right. Scroll down to tiger:reviewed. Click on it, and then click on the trash can on the right. Poof! -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
hi russ -- russ wrote: > On Apr 22, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Paul Fox wrote: > > Hey there, Paul, I'm glad to see you working on OSM. i am, but in a somewhat tangential way. i've been maintaining RoadMap for several years now, and added OSM support to it some time ago. RoadMap can convert and display either quadtile-based downloads, or country-sized downloads (for small countries -- bigger countries are an issue right now). RoadMaps Tiger support hasn't been extended to the new tiger shapefile format, and i'm not too worried about it since OSM is clearly going to be the right place to go for free maps for some time to come. thanks for the josm tips. since i've been using the Tiger maps in new england for many years, i'm confident i could "review" many roads pretty quickly. paul > > > > given how many roads will need reviewing, what's the absolute > > most efficient way to do so? > > In JOSM, select all the roads. You can do this using several methods: >o Search for certain tags. For example, if you've downloaded a > small section, and you've reviewed every street name and location, you > can search for "tiger:reviewed" to catch all the unreviewed ways. >o Draw a box around the ways. >o Shift-click on way after way after way (Control-click if you > select too much). > > When you've selected everything you want to mark as reviewed, go to > the Properties box on the right. Scroll down to tiger:reviewed. > Click on it, and then click on the trash can on the right. Poof! > > -- > Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson > r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - > http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us =- paul fox, p...@foxharp.boston.ma.us (arlington, ma, where it's 64.8 degrees) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
what is the benefit in doing this? have done it earlier but it is a lot of work and I can't find any reason in which use ore application it helps. If you consider it a sign of completeness or accuracy then this is not the way to go. If you want to see if anyone worked on tiger data it is as simple as creating a diff between the original tiger uploads and the current planet. most of the tiger tags should be erased from the database. After split,merge,duplicate,move,correct of ways these tags totally broken. A bot could be used to erase them on any node,way which was modified from the original data. On 22 Apr 2009, at 7:14 , Russ Nelson wrote: > > On Apr 22, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Paul Fox wrote: > > Hey there, Paul, I'm glad to see you working on OSM. >> >> given how many roads will need reviewing, what's the absolute >> most efficient way to do so? > > In JOSM, select all the roads. You can do this using several methods: > o Search for certain tags. For example, if you've downloaded a > small section, and you've reviewed every street name and location, you > can search for "tiger:reviewed" to catch all the unreviewed ways. > o Draw a box around the ways. > o Shift-click on way after way after way (Control-click if you > select too much). > > When you've selected everything you want to mark as reviewed, go to > the Properties box on the right. Scroll down to tiger:reviewed. > Click on it, and then click on the trash can on the right. Poof! > > -- > Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson > r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - > http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Apr 22, 2009, at 11:02 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > what is the benefit in doing this? There is no other method for somebody to say "I looked at this and everything about it is correct." -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
and then what is this info good for? just because someone claims it's correct? is it correct then? more correct than data with the tag set to no? can you give a single example where this info is helping? the tiger data is terrible wrong in some places. it's more important to fix the data instead of spending time on a useless tag. and what is correct in a project like osm? correct name, all attributes, the location. correct location? accuracy +/- 1km, 1m, 1cm? it make editing with josm a real pain. there are 2 solutions. delete it on all ways as soon as data is downloaded to get rid of it or hack the josm source. both isn't too difficult for an experienced josm user but why should anyone need to? On 23 Apr 2009, at 14:25 , Russ Nelson wrote: > > On Apr 22, 2009, at 11:02 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > >> what is the benefit in doing this? > > > There is no other method for somebody to say "I looked at this and > everything about it is correct." > > -- > Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson > r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - > http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
and then what is this info good for? just because someone claims it's correct? is it correct then? more correct than data with the tag set to no? can you give a single example where this info is helping? the tiger data is terrible wrong in some places. it's more important to fix the data instead of spending time on a useless tag. and what is correct in a project like osm? correct name, all attributes, the location. correct location? accuracy +/- 1km, 1m, 1cm? All fair questions, but the obvious notion to me is "good enough compared to the published OSM accuracy standards" :-) More seriously, I've deleted a few erroneous ways and moved one in my town from massgis, but the other 99.8% are clearly close enough so I would just delete the tags as I notice they're ok driving by. it make editing with josm a real pain. there are 2 solutions. delete it on all ways as soon as data is downloaded to get rid of it or hack the josm source. both isn't too difficult for an experienced josm user but why should anyone need to? I'm in Mass which has the higher-quality MassGIS data which doesn't really need the reviewed:no tag for way locations, so I haven't noticed this. But Mass has unreviewed tags for oneway directions because MassGIS knows ways are one-way but apparently buys routing data they couldn't share -- and thus half of those are wrong (until fixed), so they really do need reviewing/fixing. Having them be highlighted would be cause me to notice/fix more of them. Perhaps there should just be a view option "highlight unreviewed objects", and those that like this can turn it on and those that don't can not. pgpUPP52ZKRvY.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 23:01 -0700, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > On 23 Apr 2009, at 14:25 , Russ Nelson wrote: > > On Apr 22, 2009, at 11:02 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > > >> what is the benefit in doing this? > > > > There is no other method for somebody to say "I looked at this and > > everything about it is correct." > > and then what is this info good for? just because someone claims it's > correct? [ ... ] That makes it simpler for a mapper to use their time well when surveying. Having visited several mapping parties away from my normal mapping area, this would have been very helpful to indicate areas that are "worth surveying". As compared to areas that were surveyed but not very interesting. There is also a commercial and marketing benefit. If you are providing services on top of the OpenStreetMap stack or if you want to promote the success of OpenStreetMap it is very helpful to be able to show a client or potential client the volume of checked data. > it make editing with josm a real pain. there are 2 solutions. delete > it on all ways as soon as data is downloaded to get rid of it Surely you aren't suggesting that you would falsify data that you submit to OpenStreetMap by claiming that you've checked it when you haven't? And you've missed at least two other solutions. - add this new tool to your mapping toolkit and continue to enjoy mapping. - ignore it as a "rendering quirk in josm." > or hack > the josm source. Sure. > both isn't too difficult for an experienced josm user but why should > anyone need to? As a single data point, my josm (both 1529 and 1546) does not display the yellow unchecked border. So you could run those. Best regards, Richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Apr 24, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > the tiger data is terrible wrong in some places. And how do you know this? -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
> > > Perhaps there should just be a view option "highlight unreviewed > objects", and those that like this can turn it on and those that don't > can not. > if it's an option I wouldn't wast a second to write about the pro/con. why does anyone try to force users to do it? I have patched josm already but not every user knows how to do it. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On 24 Apr 2009, at 7:14 , Russ Nelson wrote: > > On Apr 24, 2009, at 2:01 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >> >> the tiger data is terrible wrong in some places. > > And how do you know this? > 1. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.379805&lon=-122.166681&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF compare wit Yahoo, 2. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=121u8tc&s=5 this is a residential road imported from tiger. have fun to drive here Tomtom, Yahoo has removed it. Google, Garmin Topo still shows it. 3. http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=37.38851&lon=-122.1795&zoom=17 check the admin borders from the recent tiger 2008 import against yahoo. Can't prove it but it's pretty obvious that borders match with other features like roads, parcel data, streams > -- > Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson > r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - > http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
apollinaris wrote: > > > Perhaps there should just be a view option "highlight unreviewed > > objects", and those that like this can turn it on and those that don't > > can not. > > > > if it's an option I wouldn't wast a second to write about the pro/con. > why does anyone try to force users to do it? > I have patched josm already but not every user knows how to do it. you sound very angry about this? it sounds like you could easily make the change to josm to make it an option, and everyone will benefit. paul =- paul fox, p...@foxharp.boston.ma.us (arlington, ma, where it's 62.6 degrees) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
my java knowledge is 0. can't patch it to make it an option. all I can is to remove the whole style and rebuild. anyone is free to remove this tag and I have done it in the past too but since then I realized it's just useless. why waste time if there is so much to work on? and I consider it really stupid if someone makes a decision to delete and reimport or any other automatic modification an area based on such a tag. On 24 Apr 2009, at 8:14 , Paul Fox wrote: > apollinaris wrote: >> >>> Perhaps there should just be a view option "highlight unreviewed >>> objects", and those that like this can turn it on and those that >>> don't >>> can not. >>> >> >> if it's an option I wouldn't wast a second to write about the pro/ >> con. >> why does anyone try to force users to do it? >> I have patched josm already but not every user knows how to do it. > > you sound very angry about this? it sounds like you could easily > make the change to josm to make it an option, and everyone will > benefit. > > paul > =- > paul fox, p...@foxharp.boston.ma.us (arlington, ma, where it's 62.6 > degrees) > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
> can you give a single example where this info is helping? It may not help you anywhere. It helps me everywhere, in my personal mapping process. > the tiger data is terrible wrong in some places. it's more important > to fix the data instead of spending time on a useless tag. Of course the Tiger data in OSM is terribly wrong in many places. It is also subtly wrong in many places, which can be harder to find and correct, or can be acceptable. It is also correct in many places, some of which were correct in the original Tiger, and some of which have been corrected by OSM mappers, sometimes by me, and sometimes by somebody else. You are free to edit as you prefer, but I need a way to keep track of this. I don't go on comprehensive mapping expeditions like my UK colleagues. I do incremental edits based on various trips that are incidental to the rest of my life. I try to clean up the map on and around the GPS track that I captured, based on what I saw and what I know of the area. If I see a nearby street on the map that I or another mapper has looked at before, I don't need to scrutinize it. If no OSM mapper has looked at it, I will check it out. Sometimes by aerial photo if I know the area or the pictures are clear with few tree obstructions. Sometimes I have to go visit the street, but I may not do it soon, or somebody else might do it. For this process, I find the tiger:reviewed=no tag to be VERY useful. Perhaps this is is the example you were looking for? Calling this tag useless is completely subjective. Much of what I see in other countries is full of useless tags. Mapping mailboxes and postal codes? No use to me, but very useful for people in another context and need. > and what is correct in a project like osm? correct name, all > attributes, the location. > correct location? accuracy +/- 1km, 1m, 1cm? This is the basis of ALL of OSM. Accuracy is up to the mapper, or collective mappers. All of OSM is dependent upon the good-faith efforts of mappers editing based on what they know and observe, to subjective standards that most reasonable people would hopefully consider "good enough", and then revise and improve over time. There is no absolute correctness which any of this data will EVER achieve. However good you think it is, somebody else will consider it inaccurate or incomplete. But reasonable people often can produce a consensus on a relative standard of "good enough for now", within a defined scope or context. For this, the tiger:reviewed tag works for many of us. > there are 2 solutions. delete > it on all ways as soon as data is downloaded to get rid of it or hack > the josm source. There is a completely valid third option you did not list: do like the rest of the planet. Completely delete the TIGER imported data in the area you surveyed. Start over from scratch with fresh GPS tracks and some Yahoo aerial photos. Of course, how will we know *that* is correct? Just because somebody claims it is? Hmm If you don't like the tag, you don't have to use it. But I have been waiting for this highlighting feature for a long time, but never got around to figuring out enough in JOSM, so I am happy to see it. To each his own; there is room for all of us in this project. - Alan ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 09:40 -0700, Alan Millar wrote: > If you don't like the tag, you don't have to use it. But I have been > waiting for this highlighting feature for a long time, but never got > around to figuring out enough in JOSM, so I am happy to see it. To > each his own; there is room for all of us in this project. I'd also be very happy if JOSM flipped the tag for me when I edit a tiger object. It seems reasonable enough that if I'm editing something that we can consider it reviewed. I certainly don't want to have to go flip it manually every time I go fixing some minor road details. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
Dave Hansen wrote: > On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 09:40 -0700, Alan Millar wrote: >> If you don't like the tag, you don't have to use it. But I have been >> waiting for this highlighting feature for a long time, but never got >> around to figuring out enough in JOSM, so I am happy to see it. To >> each his own; there is room for all of us in this project. > > I'd also be very happy if JOSM flipped the tag for me when I edit a > tiger object. It seems reasonable enough that if I'm editing something > that we can consider it reviewed. I certainly don't want to have to go > flip it manually every time I go fixing some minor road details. > > -- Dave Shouldn't it be removed rather than flipped? That's what I've been doing... -Alex Mauer "hawke" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
> I'd also be very happy if JOSM flipped the tag for me when I edit a > tiger object. It seems reasonable enough that if I'm editing something > that we can consider it reviewed. I certainly don't want to have to go > flip it manually every time I go fixing some minor road details. Good idea. (I would personally prefer to be configurable. Sometimes I align a road from aerial photo but want to remind myself to actually visit it later because something in the photo is unclear, so I leave it at reviewed=no.) There are two things I do currently to help in the cleanup: search and presets. In JOSM, you can search on the word "modified" and it will select all items you modified. Select the tiger:reviewed tag and delete it. If any of the modified items didn't have the tag, it doesn't hurt anything. And of course, you can select a rectangular region on the screen and do the same tag edit. I also made myself some JOSM tag presets and stick them on the main button bar. In each one, I set the tiger:reviewed value to blank, which will delete the tag if it is there. Here are some examples of mine: and so on. So before uploading: modified I wonder if I can shorten that even more? Hmm... - Alan ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On 24 Apr 2009, at 9:40 , Alan Millar wrote: >> can you give a single example where this info is helping? > > It may not help you anywhere. It helps me everywhere, in my personal > mapping process. > good for you, osm is free and this a good thing that we can do things the way we like it. is that a reason to force others to use the same work style? > > There is a completely valid third option you did not list: do like the > rest of the planet. Completely delete the TIGER imported data in > the area > you surveyed. Start over from scratch with fresh GPS tracks and some > Yahoo aerial photos. Of course, how will we know *that* is > correct? Just > because somebody claims it is? Hmm > sure this is an option for areas no one else ever touched. otherwise this is vandalism or disrespect for the work of other mappers > If you don't like the tag, you don't have to use it. But I have been > waiting for this highlighting feature for a long time, but never got > around to figuring out enough in JOSM, so I am happy to see it. To > each > his own; there is room for all of us in this project. > repeat myself ... use it if you like it. perfect if it's an option or plugin. forcing every josm user to accept it is somewhere between ignorance and dictatorship > - Alan > > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Apr 24, 2009, at 12:59 PM, Dave Hansen wrote: > On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 09:40 -0700, Alan Millar wrote: >> If you don't like the tag, you don't have to use it. But I have been >> waiting for this highlighting feature for a long time, but never got >> around to figuring out enough in JOSM, so I am happy to see it. To >> each his own; there is room for all of us in this project. > > I'd also be very happy if JOSM flipped the tag for me when I edit a > tiger object. Does anybody object to this? If not, I'll look at inserting special case code which removes tiger:reviewed when the way or any node it solely includes is edited in any way. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Apr 24, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > forcing every josm user to accept it is somewhere between ignorance > and dictatorship Your argument, if true, is an argument against ANY change to JOSM. Is there a different style of markup which would make you a little less angry, and yet still mark unreviewed ways as unreviewed? -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Russ Nelson wrote: > > On Apr 24, 2009, at 12:59 PM, Dave Hansen wrote: > > > On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 09:40 -0700, Alan Millar wrote: > >> If you don't like the tag, you don't have to use it. But I have been > >> waiting for this highlighting feature for a long time, but never got > >> around to figuring out enough in JOSM, so I am happy to see it. To > >> each his own; there is room for all of us in this project. > > > > I'd also be very happy if JOSM flipped the tag for me when I edit a > > tiger object. > > Does anybody object to this? If not, I'll look at inserting special > case code which removes tiger:reviewed when the way or any node it > solely includes is edited in any way. Yes. I make plenty of edits to Tiger-imported data where all I'm doing is adding the way to a relation or moving a single node here and there. I certainly don't want to say I reviewed it when I make any change in JOSM at all. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
Russ Nelson wrote: > On Apr 24, 2009, at 12:59 PM, Dave Hansen wrote: >> I'd also be very happy if JOSM flipped the tag for me when I edit a >> tiger object. > > Does anybody object to this? If not, I'll look at inserting special > case code which removes tiger:reviewed when the way or any node it > solely includes is edited in any way. I do. I split a tiger way when I have reviewed a section of it to indicate which part I reviewed and which part I haven't. I can however see the utility of it. Go ahead and do so, but please make it configurable, so those that want to can, but those that don't won't have to. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > 2. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=121u8tc&s=5 > this is a residential road imported from tiger. have fun to drive here that does need surface condition and access tags. Maybe a bollard/chicane too. but if it's a recorded (right of) way, it's a very good thing to have it access=foot in our data until the developer finally paves it and people for the census to count in 2020 move in. removing it shows TomTom's assumption that there is only one use for GIS data, turn by torn go-to nagging. not so. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On 24 Apr 2009, at 14:27 , Russ Nelson wrote: > > On Apr 24, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >> >> forcing every josm user to accept it is somewhere between ignorance >> and dictatorship > > Your argument, if true, is an argument against ANY change to JOSM. > improvements are always welcome but breaking things for no good reason is bad. you didn't provide any good reason why this is useful for a larger group of people. the new commit message thing in Josm is annoying too but it is useful for all. it is only once per upload. You made the change without communicating it before. and when it was implemented send a not with "blame me ..." you asked for it! ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
First I would like to say I think the highlighting is a good thing. As such I do not see why anyone is upset with it. But to make people happy, perhaps making it an option that defaults to being turned on would solve any issues people have. While this is tiger specific at the moment, I would thing that optionally applying similar tags to other imports might be of benefit. Especially if we could list and edit the tags that were used to trigger the highlighting. Alan, nice tips on the presets. I had not known about searching for modified items either. Both will make future edits easier. I don't think that JOSM should remove the reviewed tag automatically. Too many times I have changed only part of something that I would not claim as reviewed. At most I would make it a checkbox on the upload if there were reviewed tags. That still leaves it up to the person editing to only upload fully reviewed items when they check that. Alan's method is probably a better solution, and just needs to be publicized. Dale On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > On 24 Apr 2009, at 14:27 , Russ Nelson wrote: > >> >> On Apr 24, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >>> >>> forcing every josm user to accept it is somewhere between ignorance >>> and dictatorship >> >> Your argument, if true, is an argument against ANY change to JOSM. >> > > improvements are always welcome but breaking things for no good reason > is bad. > you didn't provide any good reason why this is useful for a larger > group of people. > the new commit message thing in Josm is annoying too but it is useful > for all. it is only once per upload. > > You made the change without communicating it before. and when it was > implemented send a not with "blame me ..." > you asked for it! > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > -- Dale Puch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 10:26 -0700, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > forcing every josm user to accept it is somewhere between ignorance > and dictatorship Hi Apollinaris, I'd be happy to code up a custom version of JOSM for you that doesn't have the yellowness. I'd also be happy to looking into making it a persistent option so you can turn it off once in your preferences and never worry about it again. I can't guarantee anything about the base version of JOSM, but I can certainly customize it and share whatever I do with you. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
Dave, have already done my customize version and removed it from the style file It's just not everyone can do it and you need a working build environment check out the source code ... Not even java knowledge required, a simple grep and an editor is enough this is definitely a feature some will like and others hate. If it can be activated/deactivated it's a nice to have. On 24 Apr 2009, at 21:38 , Dave Hansen wrote: > On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 10:26 -0700, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >> forcing every josm user to accept it is somewhere between ignorance >> and dictatorship > > Hi Apollinaris, > > I'd be happy to code up a custom version of JOSM for you that doesn't > have the yellowness. I'd also be happy to looking into making it a > persistent option so you can turn it off once in your preferences and > never worry about it again. I can't guarantee anything about the base > version of JOSM, but I can certainly customize it and share whatever I > do with you. > > -- Dave > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
Does anybody object to this? If not, I'll look at inserting special case code which removes tiger:reviewed when the way or any node it solely includes is edited in any way. I'm also not in favor of automatic tag removing, for the same reason - any change does not imply adequately fixed. pgpos2eVYLpYd.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Apr 24, 2009, at 10:31 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > have already done my customize version and removed it from the style > file Then what problem are you trying to solve with this discussion? You seem to be the only person with negative feelings about this change. I think that unless there's a groundswell of opinion against it, I'm not going to worry. Because, I mean, there *is* another solution to the problem of unreviewed tiger data: Review it! -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Apr 25, 2009, at 3:34 AM, Greg Troxel wrote: > > Does anybody object to this? If not, I'll look at inserting special > case code which removes tiger:reviewed when the way or any node it > solely includes is edited in any way. > > I'm also not in favor of automatic tag removing, for the same reason - > any change does not imply adequately fixed. Okay, it's pretty clear that most people don't want this change implemented. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > . and when it was > implemented send a not[e] with "blame me ..." *chuckle* fair point ! the commendable idea of option control is awkward to implement, since this is a style setting in XML, not a java patch. Does JOSM allow user override of XML standard values by trying to find xml files outside the Jar before using the one in the jar? -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Russ Nelson wrote: > Okay, it's pretty clear that most people don't want this change > implemented. but it's still the right thing to do. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Apr 24, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > if it's an option I wouldn't wast a second to write about the pro/con. > why does anyone try to force users to do it? > I have patched josm already but not every user knows how to do it. Apollinaris came to Sarah's mapping party in the Henry Coe State Park today (yay!). We spoke briefly about this issue. The problem (and I hope Apo will correct me if I mis-represent him) is that tiger:reviewed is but the crudest possible metric for data quality (I agree with that). In Apo's mind it is worthless. Thus, highlighting it is also worthless. I'm open to a discussion of whether it's worthless or not, but I AGREE with Apo that if tiger:reviewed is worthless, then so is highlighting its presence. I hope that Apo can agree that if we can find a way to make tiger:reviewed=no worth removing, then highlighting it for everyone (not an option, not a plugin) is the right thing to do. We did a survey of people who have mapped, but not recently, and some of them said that they stopped because the "map is complete" in their area. One of the reasons why I suggested this change is to let people know that the tiger data, unreviewed, is not complete. So, the crux of our disagreement is that Apo says that tiger:reviewed=no isn't worth editing, while I say that it's worth editing. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
over all this is a complex topic, maybe I should summarize some obervations tiger data is that the quality is from excellent to really bad in accuracy tiger data is old and contains abandoned roads tiger has no level info, no direction for oneways, no turn restrictions, or any other fancy info which we add in osm all this requires rework for most freeways, but it is good enough for lot of residential areas. As others pointed out the reviewed tag is too crude to mean anything we can all agree on. everyone has a different working style and interest. to produce a map the relative positions of roads are good enough. This is the way maps have been done in the past. absolute accuracy is not important and this way you can beautify a map by shifting some features slightly. for an online map this is still good enough. and it good enough for many mappers. I have come across severe errors on mototways and some locals had added every tiny area and POI beside it. I guess they want to see a beautiful map and don't care about the rest. If you print such a map it is good enough for orientation. so their need is fulfilled. for me osm is good enough if the data can be used for routing too. this requires turn restrictions, correct level, correct oneway directions, correct classification, use restrictions, ref tags, ideally maxspeed, tiger:reviewed could measure anything in between. simply said one tag can not map a multi dimensional requirement and subjective among different users osm doesn't have any metrics for quality or review model. might be really useful but it's not there yet. the minimum requirement for a quality tag system is define the use model and quality measurement some examples. - relative positions. good enough to print - absolute precision +/- 5m, good enough for most GPS users. - absolute precision good for high precision GPS. but good enough for parcel data? - navigation for cars, bikes, pedestrians .. not sure if a project like osm can find enough mappers to add all these levels of accuracy. for now I will spend my time to fix the basics first. and shouldn't spend so much time on these emails ;-) On 25 Apr 2009, at 19:02 , Russ Nelson wrote: > > On Apr 24, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >> >> if it's an option I wouldn't wast a second to write about the pro/ >> con. >> why does anyone try to force users to do it? >> I have patched josm already but not every user knows how to do it. > > Apollinaris came to Sarah's mapping party in the Henry Coe State Park > today (yay!). We spoke briefly about this issue. The problem (and I > hope Apo will correct me if I mis-represent him) is that > tiger:reviewed is but the crudest possible metric for data quality (I > agree with that). In Apo's mind it is worthless. Thus, highlighting > it is also worthless. I'm open to a discussion of whether it's > worthless or not, but I AGREE with Apo that if tiger:reviewed is > worthless, then so is highlighting its presence. I hope that Apo can > agree that if we can find a way to make tiger:reviewed=no worth > removing, then highlighting it for everyone (not an option, not a > plugin) is the right thing to do. We did a survey of people who have > mapped, but not recently, and some of them said that they stopped > because the "map is complete" in their area. One of the reasons why I > suggested this change is to let people know that the tiger data, > unreviewed, is not complete. > > So, the crux of our disagreement is that Apo says that > tiger:reviewed=no isn't worth editing, while I say that it's worth > editing. > > -- > Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson > r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - > http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > over all this is a complex topic, maybe I should summarize some > obervations > tiger data is that the quality is from excellent to really bad in > accuracy > tiger data is old and contains abandoned roads > tiger has no level info, no direction for oneways, no turn > restrictions, or any other fancy info which we add in osm This isn't in itself such a bad thing if we had access to free extremely high res aerial photography of the entire US. And by high-res, I mean, can clearly read pavement markings, see rubber marks and which way cars on the street are facing. This wasn't something I really noticed as a problem until I moved to Salem: Yahoo!'s aerial photography for Portland is sourced from Metro Regional Government's public photography, and is *extremely* high resolution, but south of roughly Wilsonville/Donald/Aurora/Fargo area, the best you're getting is relatively low-resolution and almost uselessly old USGS photography. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 09:50 -0700, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > tiger data is that the quality is from excellent to really bad in > accuracy > tiger data is old and contains abandoned roads > tiger has no level info, no direction for oneways, no turn > restrictions, or any other fancy info which we add in osm > > all this requires rework for most freeways, but it is good enough > for > lot of residential areas. > As others pointed out the reviewed tag is too crude to mean anything > we can all agree on. My personal view on TIGER is that it is like GPS tracks on steroids. GPS tracks are an excellent source of mapping data to help build OSM. They have good information about where roads are, what their shapes are, etc... But they generally can't tell you about an intersection's layout, turn restrictions or other surface features. But, they can't be relied upon universally. People have bad GPSes, they also forget to turn off their "lock to road" feature, etc... TIGER is a wonderful skeleton on which to build but it along is not a complete or *good* map. -- Dave ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On Apr 27, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > As others pointed out the reviewed tag is too crude to mean anything > we can all agree on. everyone has a different working style and > interest. And yet Richard, Greg, and Dale all said that removing tiger:reviewed=no implies pretty much two things: the name is right (more or less) and the location is right (more or less). I think that perhaps we can agree on that. But I also think that we need better data verification tools. For example, I'd like JOSM to be able to tell me whether one area is routable from another. Maybe if there was a plugin which let you select a node, and it would color all the rest of the nodes depending on their route distance from the selected node? That would probably make it painfully obvious where the routing was failing. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
> And yet Richard, Greg, and Dale all said that removing > tiger:reviewed=no implies pretty much two things: the name is right > (more or less) and the location is right (more or less). I think that > perhaps we can agree on that. so it's (more or less) use(ful or less) > > > But I also think that we need better data verification tools. For > example, I'd like JOSM to be able to tell me whether one area is > routable from another. Maybe if there was a plugin which let you > select a node, and it would color all the rest of the nodes > depending on their route distance from the selected node? That would > probably make it painfully obvious where the routing was failing. > http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/2369 > -- > Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson > r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - > http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson > > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
On May 11, 2009, at 11:46 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > > so it's (more or less) use(ful or less) Yes. It means "I looked at this, and see nothing that I think should be changed, so in lieu of changing anything, I removed the tiger:reviewed=no". The key value there is "I". People's opinions about when a node, way, or relation is "done" are necessarily going to be different. > http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/2369 Great minds think alike ... and then there's me. :) -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Blame me for JOSM yellowness
> >> http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/2369 > > Great minds think alike ... and then there's me. :) > still it requires a java programmer and my java knowledge is 0.0 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
