Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Metcalf, Calvin (DOT)]

I would love to help on this, iv been working on a tile set for mmassDOT and 
mmost of these things are exacctly what im goiing for (sheields, less use of 
the word motterway)
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---Original Message---
From: "Lars Ahlzen" 
Sent: 9/16/2011 7:48 pm
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

On 09/16/2011 03:37 PM, Ian Dees wrote:
> I'd like to figure out a way to start working collaboratively on 
> getting a style started. Has anyone tried to collaboratively work on a 
> style file before? Is there anyone interested in working with on it 
> with me? I was thinking about firing up a publicly-accessible Tilemill 
> instance on a representative set of US data and going from there.

I'd be happy to help working on it - especially since I'm already doing 
some of the things that were mentioned on TopOSM.

Tilemill is nice for trying out new ideas, though it might be some work 
converting existing styles to carto.

Git might work well, too.

-- 
Lars Ahlzen
l...@ahlzen.com


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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Lars Ahlzen]

On 09/16/2011 03:37 PM, Ian Dees wrote:
I'd like to figure out a way to start working collaboratively on 
getting a style started. Has anyone tried to collaboratively work on a 
style file before? Is there anyone interested in working with on it 
with me? I was thinking about firing up a publicly-accessible Tilemill 
instance on a representative set of US data and going from there.


I'd be happy to help working on it - especially since I'm already doing 
some of the things that were mentioned on TopOSM.


Tilemill is nice for trying out new ideas, though it might be some work 
converting existing styles to carto.


Git might work well, too.

--
Lars Ahlzen
l...@ahlzen.com


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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Richard Weait]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Ian Dees  wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:
>>
>> Let's keep this more "brainstormy" and less "discuss-y and debate-y"
>> for now, okay?
>>
>> Trim and add your ideas to the list for your reply.  We'll come back
>> around for discussion later. ;-)
>>
>> A few of us were just asking on irc what a US-style tile theme would look
>> like?
>>
>> - distinguish divided highways
>> - distinguish toll roads
>> - deconflict trunk / tree colors
>> - Render shields at lower resolutions
>> - De-emphasize railways at lower zooms.
>> - Label motorways with both name and number where both are tagged
>> - Fewer road colors
>
> Richard, thanks for starting this conversation! It was good to hear
> everyone's ideas.
> I'd like to figure out a way to start working collaboratively on getting a
> style started. Has anyone tried to collaboratively work on a style file
> before? Is there anyone interested in working with on it with me? I was
> thinking about firing up a publicly-accessible Tilemill instance on a
> representative set of US data and going from there.
> Any other, better ideas?

Some of the ideas will be simpler to implement than others.  That
might mean that those ideas will be simpler to endlessly bikeshed as
well. ;-) For example, we could change road colors to address a few of
the ideas above.  But what should the final color combination be?  I
predict that there will be endless discussion on that.  If one of us
comes up with a
Super-Contextual-render-a-pub-at-z4-if-it-is-the-only-pub-in-the-hemishpere,
then I expect it will get used without question.

Also, I think we might want to prioritize some of these and see who
has the initiative and knowledge to tackle which ideas.

And I'd like to add "- show surface = values in some way, so I'm not
surprised by gravel roads."

There is a similar thread on talk-ca@ with similar requests from that
portion of the community.

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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Ian Dees]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:

> Let's keep this more "brainstormy" and less "discuss-y and debate-y"
> for now, okay?
>
> Trim and add your ideas to the list for your reply.  We'll come back
> around for discussion later. ;-)
>
> A few of us were just asking on irc what a US-style tile theme would look
> like?
>
> - distinguish divided highways
> - distinguish toll roads
> - deconflict trunk / tree colors
> - Render shields at lower resolutions
> - De-emphasize railways at lower zooms.
> - Label motorways with both name and number where both are tagged
> - Fewer road colors


Richard, thanks for starting this conversation! It was good to hear
everyone's ideas.

I'd like to figure out a way to start working collaboratively on getting a
style started. Has anyone tried to collaboratively work on a style file
before? Is there anyone interested in working with on it with me? I was
thinking about firing up a publicly-accessible Tilemill instance on a
representative set of US data and going from there.

Any other, better ideas?
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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Toby Murray]

Yeah, I typically use a landuse=residential/name=* polygon for
apartment complexes. When I search for my address in nominatim it
correctly says that it is a child element of the surrounding apartment
complex.

But I guess the original point might still stand. It may not be
appropriate to tag an entire new subdivision as landuse=residential if
it includes shopping or business areas along with housing that are all
part of a named area within a city. Not sure place=development is the
best tag for that but as Richard says, that isn't really part of the
rendering brainstorm this thread is supposed to be.

Toby


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Val Kartchner  wrote:
>
>> I think that this is also the time to add a "development" level to the
>> "place" key.  There are so many place names that aren't hamlets but are
>> developments (like subdivisions) that have names.  This could include
>> the name of an apartment complex.
>
> That's a discussion that might be ideal for the tagging@ list.  For a
> named apartment complex, I'd expect the buildings or site relation to
> be named.  I wouldn't expect them to be a place.  By comparison, I
> also wouldn't expect a large university or business campus to be a
> place either while they might be named buildings or site relations.
>
> Looking at our US map rendering brainstorm, how would you restate the
> issues from your suggestions above?
>
> Earlier suggestions include the one you quoted from Brad, which might
> be "context-sensitive rendering; show smaller towns if they are the
> only towns around".
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Richard Weait]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Val Kartchner  wrote:

> I think that this is also the time to add a "development" level to the
> "place" key.  There are so many place names that aren't hamlets but are
> developments (like subdivisions) that have names.  This could include
> the name of an apartment complex.

That's a discussion that might be ideal for the tagging@ list.  For a
named apartment complex, I'd expect the buildings or site relation to
be named.  I wouldn't expect them to be a place.  By comparison, I
also wouldn't expect a large university or business campus to be a
place either while they might be named buildings or site relations.

Looking at our US map rendering brainstorm, how would you restate the
issues from your suggestions above?

Earlier suggestions include the one you quoted from Brad, which might
be "context-sensitive rendering; show smaller towns if they are the
only towns around".

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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Val Kartchner]

On Tue, 2011-09-13 at 11:10 -0500, Brad Neuhauser wrote:
> Towns appear at zoom level 9 in Mapnik, which seems pretty decent to
> me.  There are tagged "towns" in SW Kansas that show up, but some
> "villages" probably need retagging to "towns" in the N and W.  The
> Place page recommends tagging county seats as towns regardless of
> population:  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Place   I started
> "upgrading" some county seats in NW MN to "town", which helps fill
> things in, I think: http://osm.org/go/WprNC4--
> 
> 
> Brad

I think that this is also the time to add a "development" level to the
"place" key.  There are so many place names that aren't hamlets but are
developments (like subdivisions) that have names.  This could include
the name of an apartment complex.

I suggest this because there are apartments next to each other that have
names.  The lowest level that these place names can be tagged with is
"hamlet".  But how many hamlets per square mile would be reasonable?

- Val -



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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Nathan Edgars II]

On 9/13/2011 12:47 PM, Toby Murray wrote:

Hmm I think that page on the wiki has changed since I last looked at
it. The county seat bit is probably a good idea. But even then, there
have been a couple of previous discussions about place name renderings
in the US so I think we can still leave it on the brainstorming list
for things to consider for a US specific rendering.


I like how Florida seems to have worked out, using the metro area 
populations: 
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2010-October/004644.html


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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Toby Murray]

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Brad Neuhauser
 wrote:
> Towns appear at zoom level 9 in Mapnik, which seems pretty decent to me.
>  There are tagged "towns" in SW Kansas that show up, but some "villages"
> probably need retagging to "towns" in the N and W.  The Place page
> recommends tagging county seats as towns regardless of population:
>  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Place   I started "upgrading" some
> county seats in NW MN to "town", which helps fill things in, I
> think: http://osm.org/go/WprNC4--

Hmm I think that page on the wiki has changed since I last looked at
it. The county seat bit is probably a good idea. But even then, there
have been a couple of previous discussions about place name renderings
in the US so I think we can still leave it on the brainstorming list
for things to consider for a US specific rendering.

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Brad Neuhauser]

Towns appear at zoom level 9 in Mapnik, which seems pretty decent to me.
 There are tagged "towns" in SW Kansas that show up, but some "villages"
probably need retagging to "towns" in the N and W.  The Place page
recommends tagging county seats as towns regardless of population:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Place   I started "upgrading" some county
seats in NW MN to "town", which helps fill things in, I think:
http://osm.org/go/WprNC4--

Brad

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Toby Murray  wrote:

> This might be partially a tagging issue but I think it affects rendering
> too.
>
> It would be nice to change the zoom level at which cities/towns are
> rendered in rural areas. I should not be able to get a map with no place
> names on it in western Kansas
>
> Toby
> On Sep 12, 2011 6:15 PM, "Jeffrey Ollie"  wrote:
>
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>
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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Metcalf, Calvin (DOT)]

Or maybe we can tag for density level ? 

>-Original Message-
>From: Greg Troxel [mailto:g...@ir.bbn.com] 
>Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 8:27 AM
>To: Toby Murray
>Cc: talk-us
>Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM 
>data look like
>
>
>Toby Murray  writes:
>
>> This might be partially a tagging issue but I think it 
>affects rendering
>> too.
>>
>> It would be nice to change the zoom level at which 
>cities/towns are rendered
>> in rural areas. I should not be able to get a map with no 
>place names on it
>> in western Kansas
>
>I agree, and it's not just cities/towns but everything else.  In a lot
>of rural areas there isn't so much and it would be nice to show gas
>stations, restaurants, etc. and much lower-numbered zoom levels.
>Basically, add things until you almost get clutter :-)   Currently we
>have static plans suitable for dense areas, which seems like a sane
>default.
>
>I see this more as a rendering than tagging improvement, 
>although we may
>need importance hints in tags.
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Greg Troxel]

Toby Murray  writes:

> This might be partially a tagging issue but I think it affects rendering
> too.
>
> It would be nice to change the zoom level at which cities/towns are rendered
> in rural areas. I should not be able to get a map with no place names on it
> in western Kansas

I agree, and it's not just cities/towns but everything else.  In a lot
of rural areas there isn't so much and it would be nice to show gas
stations, restaurants, etc. and much lower-numbered zoom levels.
Basically, add things until you almost get clutter :-)   Currently we
have static plans suitable for dense areas, which seems like a sane
default.

I see this more as a rendering than tagging improvement, although we may
need importance hints in tags.


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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Metcalf, Calvin (DOT)]

I guess the thing for the US vs UK is just that landscape varies much more in 
the US and a Collector road in NYC is going to be very different from one in 
rural Iowa.  This is opposed to the UK where the level of density is much more 
uniform.
---
Calvin Metcalf
Massachusetts Department of Transportation
Office of Transportation Planning
10 Park Plaza Suite 4150
Boston, MA 02116
Office 617-973-7027
calvin.metc...@state.ma.us


>-Original Message-
>From: Nathan Edgars II [mailto:nerou...@gmail.com] 
>Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:32 AM
>To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM 
>data look like
>
>On 9/12/2011 10:04 PM, Metcalf, Calvin (DOT) wrote:
>> - more road colors just because its a state highway that 
>could mean something unpaved or divided limited access
>
>If it's divided limited access it should be trunk or motorway. If it's 
>unpaved it should probably be tertiary unless unpaved is the 
>norm in the 
>area.
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Nathan Edgars II]

On 9/12/2011 10:04 PM, Metcalf, Calvin (DOT) wrote:

- more road colors just because its a state highway tthat could mean something 
unpaved or divided limited acces


If it's divided limited access it should be trunk or motorway. If it's 
unpaved it should probably be tertiary unless unpaved is the norm in the 
area.


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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Metcalf, Calvin (DOT)]

Sent with Verizon Mobile Email


---Original Message---
From: "Richard Weait" 
Sent: 9/12/2011 7:10 pm
To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

Let's keep this more "brainstormy" and less "discuss-y and debate-y"
for now, okay?

Trim and add your ideas to the list for your reply.  We'll come back
around for discussion later. ;-)

A few of us were just asking on irc what a US-style tile theme would look like?

- distinguish divided highways
- distinguish toll roads
- deconflict trunk / tree colors
- Render shields at lower resolutions
- De-emphasize railways at lower zooms.
- Label motorways with both name and number where both are tagged.
- more road colors just because its a state highway tthat could mean something 
unpaved or divided limited acces
- Distinguish road surface, so gravel, unpaved is obvious.

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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Toby Murray]

This might be partially a tagging issue but I think it affects rendering
too.

It would be nice to change the zoom level at which cities/towns are rendered
in rural areas. I should not be able to get a map with no place names on it
in western Kansas

Toby
On Sep 12, 2011 6:15 PM, "Jeffrey Ollie"  wrote:
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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Jeffrey Ollie]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 6:10 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:
> Let's keep this more "brainstormy" and less "discuss-y and debate-y"
> for now, okay?
>
> Trim and add your ideas to the list for your reply.  We'll come back
> around for discussion later. ;-)
>
> A few of us were just asking on irc what a US-style tile theme would look 
> like?
>
> - distinguish divided highways
> - distinguish toll roads
> - deconflict trunk / tree colors
> - Render shields at lower resolutions
> - De-emphasize railways at lower zooms.
> - Label motorways with both name and number where both are tagged
> - Fewer road colors
> - Distinguish road surface, so gravel, unpaved is obvious.

Distinguishing level B maintenance roads would be nice too.

-- 
Jeff Ollie

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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Richard Weait]

Let's keep this more "brainstormy" and less "discuss-y and debate-y"
for now, okay?

Trim and add your ideas to the list for your reply.  We'll come back
around for discussion later. ;-)

A few of us were just asking on irc what a US-style tile theme would look like?

- distinguish divided highways
- distinguish toll roads
- deconflict trunk / tree colors
- Render shields at lower resolutions
- De-emphasize railways at lower zooms.
- Label motorways with both name and number where both are tagged
- Fewer road colors
- Distinguish road surface, so gravel, unpaved is obvious.

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Re: [Talk-us] Brainstorm: What should a US map of OSM data look like

[Richard Weait]

Let's keep this more "brainstormy" and less "discuss-y and debate-y"
for now, okay?

Trim and add your ideas to the list for your reply.  We'll come back
around for discussion later. ;-)

A few of us were just asking on irc what a US-style tile theme would look like?

- distinguish divided highways
- distinguish toll roads
- deconflict trunk / tree colors
- Render shields at lower resolutions
- De-emphasize railways at lower zooms.
- Label motorways with both name and number where both are tagged
- Fewer road colors

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