Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
On 6/26/2011 12:40 AM, Dion Dock wrote: However, when I look at Mapnik, I want to see the way's intended use. I'm sure there are plenty of counterexamples, but in my experience, all paths allow pedestrians, while only some allow bikes and/or horses. This renders nicely too: bikes get one color, horses another, foot another. Mapnik is only one representation of the map data. What about those who use OpenCycleMap or Open Mapquest or HikeBikeMap or Hiking / Horseback Map? If tagging for Mapnik messes up another map which is even better rendered to show the different uses, it does not accomplish anything except for showing in Mapnik today the way you wish. Mapnik's rendering might change tomorrow. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
On 6/26/11 12:40 AM, Dion Dock wrote: Here's my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth. :) I can understand why highway=path makes sense from a routing perspective. However, when I look at Mapnik, I want to see the way's intended use. I'm sure there are plenty of counterexamples, but in my experience, all paths allow pedestrians, while only some allow bikes and/or horses. This renders nicely too: bikes get one color, horses another, foot another. So put me on Paul's side for this. if you check out mapnik's rendering, you'll see that it recognizes the presence of the access tags and does in fact render differently depending. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
On 06/20/2011 05:29 PM, PJ Houser wrote: If a way is used for both pedestrians and cyclists, should it be tagged highway=cycleway or highway=path with bicycle=designated? This is what the bridge path looks like - http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673. On the http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway: The highway=cycleway indicates that the used way is mainly or exclusively for bicycles. Some consider it better to use highway=path if use is not restricted to cyclists On the discussion page: Mainly or exclusively I can see from the history of the page that the wording was fought over last summer. But the end result is not correct (and indeed contradicts itself). I'd have said it was more accurate to say that cycleways indicate corridors that are mainly or exclusively for cyclists and pedestrians. Where they are used for ways that are mainly or exclusively for cyclists only, this should either be the norm for that country (as set out in access-restrictions), or be indicated by the addition of a tag foot=no. In either situation, an alternative way for pedestrians should be shown if one exists (this may merely be the footway implied by an adjacent road). --RichardMann http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RichardMann 14:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC) I'm sure this was discussed ad nauseum at some point, so feel free to point me to the correct thread. This was also asked of me off-list, so I'll go ahead and repost what I sent earlier for the sake of discussion. All locations are in the Metro Region, Oregon. highway=footway would be sidewalks, trails and narrow walkways where bicycles are restricted to walking speed (all sidewalks in Oregon), banned (all sidewalks in city center) or otherwise geared primarily or exclusively towards pedestrians at the expense of all other possible users (when this is an entire street, such as found in the Rose Quarter, then it's highway=pedestrian). highway=path is a shared facility suitable for bicycles and pedestrians, that allows or is a designated route for either mode. Examples would be most park paths, and the Willamette Greenway through waterfront park. highway=cycleway is a facility primarily or exclusively geared towards cyclists, that may or may not offer access to other modes. Generally, these have signage found in the Standard Highway Signs guide, and pavement markings consistent with the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices for bicycle facilities. Examples would be the cycleways along I 205 and I 84, Springwater Corridor west of where the pavement ends, Springwater on the Willamette, Hawthorne Bridge (though these could also be considered a highway=path, bicycle=designated, foot=designated, segregated=yes, oneway=yes, and portions of the Westside Trail for cycleways that allow pedestrians; the Morrison Bridge (when it's not perpetually under construction) as a cycleway that doesn't allow pedestrians (they use the bridge sidewalks, which haven't been mapped yet). One thing I didn't mention earlier is my thoughts on the Hawthorne Bridge cycleways is that the pavement markings crossing the bridge itself are of a nonstandard variety and lack concrete delineation between the designated pedestrian space and the designated bicycle space (though it is segregated as such, there's just no obvious edge to either space, and the pavement markings are not standards compliant). signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
On 06/20/2011 05:39 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 6/20/11 8:29 PM, PJ Houser wrote: I'm sure this was discussed ad nauseum at some point, so feel free to point me to the correct thread. i would say that consensus was not achieved. i personally favor highway=path and then setting bicycle, foot, etc., to indicate access permissions as appropriate. When in doubt, when mapping a new facility, this is probably the right answer (unless it's obviously a sidewalk). signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
Here's my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth. :) I can understand why highway=path makes sense from a routing perspective. However, when I look at Mapnik, I want to see the way's intended use. I'm sure there are plenty of counterexamples, but in my experience, all paths allow pedestrians, while only some allow bikes and/or horses. This renders nicely too: bikes get one color, horses another, foot another. So put me on Paul's side for this. (Of course, I'm also of the opinion that highway=footway should imply surface=paved, highway=path implies surface=gravel or dirt and highway=cycleway implies surface=paved.) That said, it's probably better to be consistent than correct. I've grown tired of trying to convince other contributors of the proper types. Now I just sit back and watch the trails in Forest Park change tags every week. ;) -Dion Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:10:39 -0700 From: PJ Houser stephanie.jean.hou...@gmail.com To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Cc: osm-...@googlegroups.com, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path Message-ID: BANLkTi=wktqodm2syffel-yznesus6n...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Well, I have a conundrum here in Portland, Oregon. The 4 TriMet mappers here in Portland would prefer to tag all multi-use paths as paths, with bicycle=designated, particularly because we are attempting to make the Portland area routable. OpenTripPlanner, the multi-modal routing software we'll be using, routes for walking, bicycling, cars, and transit, so I'm hoping to let paths be paths because that implies bicycle AND pedestrian are legally allowed equal access. However, a fellow user, Paul Johnson, favors highway=cycleway for designated multi-use paths. I am cc-ing him for his input, as there is probably a good reason he prefers cycleways. I am also cc-ing the OSM-PDX google group for their input. Terms: Cycleway: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway The highway=cycleway indicates that the used way is mainly or exclusively for bicycles. Some consider it better to use highway=path if use is not restricted to cyclists. Path: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath This tag is used for paths for which all and any of highgway=footway, highway=cycleway, and highway=bridleway would be inappropriate or inadequate (or simply not sufficient), but which are nonetheless usable for travel or navigation. They might be not intended for any particular use, or intended for several different uses. Intended uses can be indicated with the access=designated keys. It is also used for hiking trails. Some examples of multi-use paths tagged as highway=cycleway: Eastbank Esplanade http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105action=ViewPark Morrison Bridge Multi-use Path http://bikeportland.org/2011/06/10/morrison-bridge-path-to-close-for-construction-project-54559 Hawthorne Bridge, with both pedestrian and bicycle markings http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673. Traffic stats: In 2008, the breakdown for peak-hour (4-6 pm) usage of these trails shows that cyclists usually dominate, but pedestrians make up from 15% to 50% of the traffic. http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34778a=292746 -- PJ Houser Trimet GIS intern username: PJ Houser ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
On 6/21/2011 7:10 PM, PJ Houser wrote: Well, I have a conundrum here in Portland, Oregon. The 4 TriMet mappers here in Portland would prefer to tag all multi-use paths as paths, with bicycle=designated, particularly because we are attempting to make the Portland area routable. OpenTripPlanner, the multi-modal routing software we'll be using, routes for walking, bicycling, cars, and transit, so I'm hoping to let paths be paths because that implies bicycle AND pedestrian are legally allowed equal access I see nothing wrong with the JOSM preset for Combined foot- and cycleway. highway=path foot=designated bicycle=designated This will almost certainly be the setting used by everyone tagging a combined use path using JOSM in the future. Routers should be able to key off the 'designated' tag. I may not be aware, but that tag does not imply the legal status in the US as it does in other countries. The actual tag - 'path' / 'cycleway' shouldn't be such a big issue; it's just a token that could as easily be a hidden value generated by editor presets. For that reason, the syntactic implication of the actual tag name does not carry weight; it's merely a mnemonic indicator of the tag function. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
Well, I have a conundrum here in Portland, Oregon. The 4 TriMet mappers here in Portland would prefer to tag all multi-use paths as paths, with bicycle=designated, particularly because we are attempting to make the Portland area routable. OpenTripPlanner, the multi-modal routing software we'll be using, routes for walking, bicycling, cars, and transit, so I'm hoping to let paths be paths because that implies bicycle AND pedestrian are legally allowed equal access. However, a fellow user, Paul Johnson, favors highway=cycleway for designated multi-use paths. I am cc-ing him for his input, as there is probably a good reason he prefers cycleways. I am also cc-ing the OSM-PDX google group for their input. Terms: Cycleway: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway The highway=cycleway indicates that the used way is mainly or exclusively for bicycles. Some consider it better to use highway=path if use is not restricted to cyclists. Path: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath This tag is used for paths for which all and any of highgway=footway, highway=cycleway, and highway=bridleway would be inappropriate or inadequate (or simply not sufficient), but which are nonetheless usable for travel or navigation. They might be not intended for any particular use, or intended for several different uses. Intended uses can be indicated with the access=designated keys. It is also used for hiking trails. Some examples of multi-use paths tagged as highway=cycleway: Eastbank Esplanade http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/finder/index.cfm?PropertyID=105action=ViewPark Morrison Bridge Multi-use Path http://bikeportland.org/2011/06/10/morrison-bridge-path-to-close-for-construction-project-54559 Hawthorne Bridge, with both pedestrian and bicycle markings http://bikeportland.org/2005/11/21/hawthorne-bridge-gets-new-markings-673. Traffic stats: In 2008, the breakdown for peak-hour (4-6 pm) usage of these trails shows that cyclists usually dominate, but pedestrians make up from 15% to 50% of the traffic. http://www.portlandonline.com/transportation/index.cfm?c=34778a=292746 -- PJ Houser Trimet GIS intern username: PJ Houser On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 4:00 AM, talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote: Send Talk-us mailing list submissions to talk-us@openstreetmap.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org You can reach the person managing the list at talk-us-ow...@openstreetmap.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Talk-us digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: highway=cycleway or highway=path (Richard Welty) 2. Re: highway=cycleway or highway=path (Mike N) 3. Re: highway=cycleway or highway=path (Josh Doe) -- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:39:49 -0400 From: Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path Message-ID: 4dffe855.3030...@averillpark.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 6/20/11 8:29 PM, PJ Houser wrote: I'm sure this was discussed ad nauseum at some point, so feel free to point me to the correct thread. i would say that consensus was not achieved. i personally favor highway=path and then setting bicycle, foot, etc., to indicate access permissions as appropriate. richard -- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:48:00 -0400 From: Mike N nice...@att.net To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path Message-ID: 4dffea40.1070...@att.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 6/20/2011 8:39 PM, Richard Welty wrote: i personally favor highway=path and then setting bicycle, foot, etc., to indicate access permissions as appropriate. I agree - this is the approach taken with the JOSM preset, and will thus gravitate toward a more exact definition as tag sets become more unified. -- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:11:27 -0400 From: Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com To: Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path Message-ID: banlktinjrn1n-ump9bcon6vz73f_nbb...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 6/20/11 8:29 PM, PJ Houser wrote: I'm sure this was discussed ad nauseum at some point, so feel free to point me to the correct thread. i would say that consensus was not achieved. Consensus for all of OSM or OSM in the US? i personally favor highway=path and then setting bicycle, foot, etc
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
Wanted to make sure talk-us gets this message from a non-member of talk-us. :) -- Forwarded message -- From: David Turner nova...@novalis.org Date: Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 4:16 PM Subject: Re: highway=cycleway or highway=path To: osm-...@googlegroups.com Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org Hi! I'm a developer on OpenTripPlanner, and I'm writing to clarify things for talk-us members who may not be familiar with the OpenTripPlanner project. I hope my mail will go through as I am not a member of talk-us. OTP is a multi-modal router, supporting bikes, pedestrians, and public transit. It can even do cool things like letting you bike to a bus station and then put it on a bus, in awesome cities like Portland which allow this. Like any router, OTP requires clear rules for whether a cyclist or a pedestrian may use a way. But OTP does not restrict what tags are used to define these rules. That is configurable on a per-install basis. So, if Portland are OSM editors decide that highway=cycleway means bicycles and pedestrians can use the way, that's totally cool. Meanwhile, if in some other area (San Diego, say) highway=cycleway means strictly bicycles only, then OTP users in San Diego can configure their version that way. tl;dr: make any locally consistent decision based one what's best for the map and don't panic about OTP. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
From: David Turner nova...@novalis.org Like any router, OTP requires clear rules for whether a cyclist or a pedestrian may use a way. But OTP does not restrict what tags are used to define these rules. That is configurable on a per-install basis. So, if Portland are OSM editors decide that highway=cycleway means bicycles and pedestrians can use the way, that's totally cool. Meanwhile, if in some other area (San Diego, say) highway=cycleway means strictly bicycles only, then OTP users in San Diego can configure their version that way. tl;dr: make any locally consistent decision based one what's best for the map and don't panic about OTP. So for example, if I'm visiting San Diego and want to plan a trip from my hotel to the zoo, I have to first track down the website that understands the local tagging conventions because San Diegoans decided to tag things differently from Des Moinesians? Or even worse, will I be able to find an iPhone or Android app that knows how to route in San Diego using OpenStreetMap data? How does that do anything but drive traffic to Google Maps and hurt people like MapQuest? Note, this isn't a criticism of OpenTripPlanner - I think it's great that their routing engine is so configurable. This IS a criticism of people that believe that tags shouldn't have a globally consistent meaning. -- Jeff Ollie ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
On 6/20/11 8:29 PM, PJ Houser wrote: I'm sure this was discussed ad nauseum at some point, so feel free to point me to the correct thread. i would say that consensus was not achieved. i personally favor highway=path and then setting bicycle, foot, etc., to indicate access permissions as appropriate. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
On 6/20/2011 8:39 PM, Richard Welty wrote: i personally favor highway=path and then setting bicycle, foot, etc., to indicate access permissions as appropriate. I agree - this is the approach taken with the JOSM preset, and will thus gravitate toward a more exact definition as tag sets become more unified. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] highway=cycleway or highway=path
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 6/20/11 8:29 PM, PJ Houser wrote: I'm sure this was discussed ad nauseum at some point, so feel free to point me to the correct thread. i would say that consensus was not achieved. Consensus for all of OSM or OSM in the US? i personally favor highway=path and then setting bicycle, foot, etc., to indicate access permissions as appropriate. I'd tend to agree, unless it's abundantly clear that it's meant for pedestrians (e.g. sidewalks) or cyclists (e.g. path designated as a cycle path). -Josh ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
