Re: [Tango-L] Tango Theory
I'm writing about Argentine Tango in the United States. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of rcgi...@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 2:26 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Theory Michael - I was specifically referring to Argentine tango (in the US.) I've done a little bit of Zydeco. The people I met there were awesome and welcoming. I've do fire dance (yep, with burning gasoline) and even though most of the people in the group are half my age, they have been happy to have me. I've done some ballroom, too. Though I have found them less inviting that the zydeco and fire community, they are still heads above the Argentine tango community. What's up with that? -Original Message- From: Michael <tangoman...@optimum.net> To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu> Sent: Sun, Sep 25, 2016 10:12 am Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Theory Dancing brings out whatever you're feeling. It can bring out feelings of love and acceptance or feelings of control and anger. I guess you can dance like a Jedi or Darth Vader. The way you behave OFF the dance floor is the way you behave ON the dance floor. I don't think dancing makes people more arrogant. I think dancing brings arrogant feelings to the surface and dancers verbally express them. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of rcgi...@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 12:31 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Theory I haven't posted on these boards in years. And, it's a rare day when I get a post from the boards. I've been dancing tango for 13 years. I've come to the conclusion that tango doesn't make people arrogant. It just seems to be a magnet for arrogant people. Anyone else make this observation? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Theory
Dancing brings out whatever you're feeling. It can bring out feelings of love and acceptance or feelings of control and anger. I guess you can dance like a Jedi or Darth Vader. The way you behave OFF the dance floor is the way you behave ON the dance floor. I don't think dancing makes people more arrogant. I think dancing brings arrogant feelings to the surface and dancers verbally express them. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of rcgi...@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 12:31 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Theory I haven't posted on these boards in years. And, it's a rare day when I get a post from the boards. I've been dancing tango for 13 years. I've come to the conclusion that tango doesn't make people arrogant. It just seems to be a magnet for arrogant people. Anyone else make this observation? ___ Tango-L mailing list <mailto:Tango-L@mit.edu> Tango-L@mit.edu <http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Give it a try
I'm going to click on the link because I'll bet it leads to a virus. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of semi...@bailatango.com Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 7:47 PM To: seyda_taylanli; site; skaracabeyli; tameralev; tango-l Subject: [Tango-L] Give it a try Hello, I think you have to try this thing, it's so hilarious, take a look at <http://spithenditre.goodwebcontent.com/fresh.php?d> Warmest, semi...@bailatango.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] About Reddit tango discussion
There's another forum: http://www.dance-forums.com/forums/tango-argentino.9/ Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Kace Tango Subject: [Tango-L] About Reddit tango discussion Hi List, It was fantastic that this discussion list was given a new lease of life last year (kudos to Shahrukh). But level of activity seems to have fallen way down in the past few months. Even organisers seem to have stopped posting announcements. What took the air out of this list, in my opinion, is that nobody is asking interesting questions anymore. Why? -- Probably because newbies entering the scene do not know about this forum, -- Most of the oldies already knew the answers for everything they wish to know. (Of course there are still many new questions being asked, but mostly these live in Facebook or live chats or other ephemeral medium). Without fresh questions to launch discussions, this list is not getting the kind of vigorous and diverse information sharing that used to generate fantastic mega-threads and make this list an essential daily reading and worthy of being archived for future referencing. With that context in mind, I like to introduce the Reddit website -- tagged "the front page of the Internet" -- with 140million monthly readers. (Full disclosure: I am a moderator on Reddit's /r/tango community) The tango forum (http://reddit.com/r/tango) is still a tiny group of less than 1000 readers, but most of them are newbies and therefore have many questions. In the past month, these questions were discussed: = Very stressed at tango = Beginner try dancing outside of classes, very crowded, what to do = How to find inexpensive lessons = Do both partners need to know tango = Where to buy tango shoes The Reddit software allows anonymous posting, and all posts are voted by the community to bubble the most interesting topics to the first page of the "hot" list, and drop the mundane ones to the later pages. Non-registered members can read but cannot post or vote. Each week we plug link headlines from various news publications, blogs, youtubes, media releases and crowdfunding projects that are connected to Tango. I'm hoping for more posts about history, culture and the growth of the world scene, topics that can make big differences. I would be most excited to have you visit from time to time, and contribute your nuggets of wisdom. Kace ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango in Paris
Try this link: http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187147-i14-k6828761-Places_to_dance_salsa_and_Argentine_tango_in_Paris-Paris_Ile_de_France.html Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Mary Menz Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 3:01 PM To: Tango-L@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Tango in Paris I will be in Paris mid - October. The only reference I can find on the internet when I look for places to dance is links to the movie “Last Tango in Paris” Can someone help me with a website that might let me know where and when there might be any milongas? (They need a “tango mango”) Thanks. Mary Menz ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] What is your favorite figure, combination of figures, or adornment?
My favorite combination comes at the end of an intense tango, e.g. DiSarli, Tanturi, and Pugliese or lyrical vals, e.g. D'Arienzo or Firpo. I love when the music reaches the climax, followed by the resolution, (the last note.) It feels like an exclamation point. I love to lead a back displacement, boleo, followed by a leg wrap so that the wrap happens at the same time the last note sounds. It feels better when the woman holds the wrap. What is your favorite? Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] FW: Michael, women's power in tango
Martin: I've danced in New York every week for the past four years. You and I must go to different milongas and practicas. Where I dance, it starts off more men then woman but within the hour, the balance shifts. I'll let the women decide if this is a bogus topic. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better From: Nussbaum, Martin (Law) Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 1:28 PM Michael, he is looking for legitimate topics, not bogus ones. I don't know when the last time you danced in NYC was, but I have never seen or experienced the women you describe. Women have no problem dancing with whomever they want, and turning men down, especially since men outnumber women at the overwhelming majority of practicas and milongas. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Do you have a favorite tango: overall or by orquestra?
I put all my music selections in an Excel file. Now after many years of dancing, I listen to each CD with my list as I read The New York Times. Now I'm learning the names and the orquestras that I hear at milongas. My overall favorite is Quejas de Bandeneon: Troilo 1958 (This is the version from The Tango Lesson.) I don't like any other version including any other Troilo version. My favorite Di Sarli is El Jaguel. What is your favorite overall or favorite orquestra? You can expand your answer to be favorite tango, vals, and milonga. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Women's power in tango
Shahrukh is looking for list activity. I hope I can write this without being flamed or misunderstood. Women have power in tango. Either they don't know it or know it and don't know how to use it. (An alternative description is women finding their voice.) I don't hear everything women say between each other while they sit but I know they discuss the quality of the leaders. Women have complained to me that a leader bent their wrist backwards so they now have carpal tunnel syndrome or squeezed their hand so hard their knuckles almost exploded like popcorn. Why do women continue to dance with horrible leaders (based on their definition?) I remember Karin said she would hurt the man's feelings if she turned him down. I asked her What would you say if a man said 'Let's go to your place after the milonga and do the other tango?' I'd say NO! I asked, Why would you say NO? You'll hurt the man's feelings! I wish I had a camera because the look on her face was a (click) Kodak moment. I've seen men hold out their hand and women just jump. There's a man in New York who has a reputation for dropping partners on the floor. I was amazed that women still danced with him after he dropped one. Do men have the power of Count Dracula to force women to dance with them? (I guess that's the ultimate cabeceo.) I remember a woman who was talking to me say she was now going to dance a horrible tanda with a lousy leader. Why? Some women found their voice (and power) and don't have a problem turning men down even though it shocks some of them. My teacher said everybody has to answer the question Is BAD tango better than NO tango. Why is BAD tango better than NO tango? (Taking a chance pressing the SEND button. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Not dancing with the music
Well, what happens in class? The teacher shows a pattern, exhibits it with music, and tells the students to try the figure. When the class messes up, the teacher will say something like Men, you have to give a lot of rotation so the woman knows you're leading a molinete or Ladies, take big back step so you don't trip over a feet. I've never heard a teacher say in class Is anybody listening to the music? Why is there surprise that men don't listen to music? The music is more like Muzak you hear in elevators. How many dancers understand the music of milonga? How many times do you see couples dancing tango to vals? Ming wanted to know how women tell men they are off beat (or any other complaint?) Simple, don't dance with them anymore. (I think I used Aristophanes Lysistrata as a suggestion.) Women have a lot of power in tango. Either they don't know it or don't know how to use it. If teachers ignore women's complaints, then women should stop attending their classes. I remember a very old Tango L message from a woman in Washington, DC who came to the conclusion that 80% of class time was spent helping the men lead the figure and 20% of the time was helping women follow well. Women were paying the same amount for class but not getting the same amount of benefit. (That could be a separate topic.) Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Ming Mar People aren't dancing with the music even when the music is d'Arienzo, so I don't think the problem is difficult music. Do the men know that they are not dancing with the music? Do they even know they're supposed to? It is impolite to criticize someone, so how are they ever going to know? When leaders don't dance with the music, they move at odd unpredictable times. This means that followers have to pay total attention to the leaders and ignore (not listen to) the music. Students do what they've learned, meaning that the men have learned to dance ignoring the music. Why aren't (more?) women complaining to the teachers? Do the teachers dance with the music? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Not dancing with the music
Based on private messages, I can see that I've confused some list members. I'm going to try again. Technique and musicality are required to dance well. I learned them separately. Daniel Trenner said at Tango Locura in 1999 that you have to learn how to dance before you can dance tango. BUT some people skip learning how to dance and go directly to tango with horrible results. My private teacher (for eight years) concentrated on the fundamentals: axis, frame, posture, balance. (I know there won't ever be universal agreement on the definition of fundamentals.) I was jealous of men who were able to lead figures that were beyond my grasp. My friend Anna, said; But Michael, the men you look at don't have Joe as their teacher so they don't have the fundamentals. Even though it looks like they dance well, they really are dancing very poorly, very well. There's an Argentine expression: When the man walks nicely, the woman wants to die in his arms. When the man walks poorly, the woman wants to die. Before you can learn to dance, you first have to learn how to walk. I had to fix my walk before I could even consider walking well. One of the few times my teacher allowed me to look down was changing to cross feet for ochos. After a (long) while it clicked. I couldn't do figures to the music because I didn't have enough skill and confidence. Once I developed them, musicality was added. I wasn't good enough to learn technique and musicality simultaneously. BUT I was on the right path and I knew I would reach the destination but didn't know when I would arrive. I hope this is a better explanation of my learning curve. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Not Dancing with the music
The Argentines are content with knowing seven or eight figures which are used over and over again. It's the North Americans who aren't content with a limited vocabulary. I remember when ganchos were in vogue, followed by valcaldas and colgaldas. Connection isn't taught but how to do figures that take up a lot of space on the dance floor. Walking the tango presumes you know how to walk well. When a man walks beautifully, the woman wants to die in his arms. When a man walks terribly, the woman wants to die. When I sit out a tanda, I love to watch women's faces as they pass me. Very few have a look of bliss. Some have a look that says Please. Shoot me and put me out of my misery. Others have a look that says Please. Shoot him and put me out of my misery. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- There is dancing on the beat, which may suffice for most European and American ballroom dances. I'm not sure if Ming Mar was referring to stepping on the beat or dancing to the phrases. It is my belief that beginners should be first taught to walk the tango. After they can walk, lead, and follow in time to the music, they should be introduced to this idea: *listen to the music the entire time you are dancing.* When I watch a dance floor, I see some people doing steps to the music. For me, it is tango when couples are dancing with the music, immersed in the dynamic flow of feeling that is so characteristic of tango. This is why it is also important to listen to tango as music. Sit and listen and get to know and develop a feeling for the tangos you dance to. I think the Argentine emphasis on the feeling in the music and dance sets tango apart from the Northern hemispheric approach to social dancing. Jonathan Thornton ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Overteaching
Lois: I think the women you're describing are going through the learning process and they are discovering new aspects. IMHO, they obsess with being on their own axis so they no longer have to think or feel Am I on my axis. There is so much to learn that after a while, dancers realize they may have been taught some aspects out of sequence. (The sequence is different for everybody.) If teachers just teach steps instead of the fundaments I was taught (axis, frame, posture, balance), some dancers have problems and look for the missing pieces. I was consumed by the fundamentals because I didn't pivot well. My frame was broken. I couldn't advance until these problems were fixed. OMG, the crazy things I did to improve. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Lois Donnay Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] heels on floor? I think there is a new thing - overteaching. For instance - women who used to be fun to dance with, now are so obsessed with being on their own axis that they don't connect, or fall backwards or sideways. Perhaps we have lost something from the days when people learned just by doing. Of course, as a person who makes her living teaching tango - I don't want that to spread around... ;) ᐧ Loisa Donnay Minnesota ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Interesting question
Hello Lois: I learned from the grand days of Tango L to avoid right and wrong so I won't use those words. I understand putting the heels on the floor without weight but keeping the weight on the ball of the foot. It doesn't make any sense to put weight on the heels. The heel on the floor acts like a parking brake that will block the woman from pivoting. Also, if the weight is on the heel, the woman will fall backward into the next step. I dance close embrace and Apilado style. I dance on the balls of my feet so my torso is slightly forward so I can make contact with the woman’s chest. I’m going to have difficulty leading her if her weight is back on her heels because she can’t present her chest. The follower can take longer steps if she is on the ball of the foot instead of the heel. (Short steps lead to big problems.) Do teachers contradict other teachers? Since there seems to be multiple ways of dancing tango, they express the style that works best for them. I can’t dance flat footed or have weight on my heel. Maybe some teachers can dance that way, but I can’t. Is this really a preference issue instead of a “right vs. wrong” issue. My advice is stay with the technique that works best for you. Everybody isn’t compatible with everybody else on the dance floor. I’m sticking with my style even if some teachers say it’s wrong. That’s OK. They can dance with somebody else. When no one will dance with me, I’ll change my technique. P.S. Lois, the Minneapolis Visitors Center sent tourist info in case I stop at MSP on my return from Portland, OR tango fest in October. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Lois Donnay Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:53 PM Help! A tango teacher told me to keep my heels on the floor - I should use the heels on my tango shoes to stand on. I've been working hard to do that, even though it didn't feel very natural. Now another teacher (ed not - that was me) says I should keep my heels just slightly off the floor - only if I really need balance should they touch the floor. What is right?? And why do teachers seem to contradict each other so often? Ever heard of that - a teacher who tells followers to keep their heels on the floor your shoes have heels for a reason! Lois ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] The Rules
Trini: You were an important contributor to the List back in the day. Your situation compels a discussion about the rules. I don't know if the rules were created to regulate traffic or a technological issue, i.e. how many postings you can shove through a server. I now realize that the rules were automatic moderation. Shahrukh must have been overwhelmed with monitoring the traffic, like guiding airplanes into and out of a very busy airport. (I think there were auxiliary moderators but I'm not sure.) The rules also prevented too many flames from the same poster. Is it possible to wipe the slate clean for everybody and take a fresh look at the rules? I belong to a dance forum where there is NO limit on the postings to a bulletin board. The major difference is the bulletin board has multiple threads and you can follow certain threads. (The forum sends an alert when somebody has posted to the thread you're following.) You can't set up Tango L to only receive messages on threads you want to follow. But then, it's understood this is a list. Before the rules are changed and the floodgates opened, we need to discuss moderation and who volunteers to be a moderator. It can't fall completely on Shahrukh's shoulders. There will always be listers who will abuse the rules. Shahrukh wrote in an earlier message (which I can't find) that .5% (I hope I remembered the correct percentage) of the listers were the flamers. So we should shut down the list because of .5% of the list? I understand rules have their value. But blindly following rules that may no longer be applicable isn't a good idea. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Sound of the Music When my last three emails to the list did not post, I figured it was time to leave. The first two where responses to a post and I had forgotten about the 2 postings/day limit. I had thought they might post the next day as they did, I thought, bring more light into the discussion and specifically addressed attracting new readers/posters. None of that bothers me, but it really made me realize that I simply don't have the time for this. I could have rewritten my comments and reposted them for the next day, but life calls. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Etiquette for live music
I think the rule is dancing begins AFTER the first composition is played. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Lois Donnay Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 6:38 PM Although I have been to BA many times and have heard many live orchestras, I don't exactly know the etiquette of when to dance to a live orchestra. Last year when an orchestra visited, dancers went out on the floor immediately, and that just seemed so wrong. Waiting as long as they do in BA might be impossible for American dancers who barely listen to the music anyway. What is right? Loisa from Minnesota ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gustavo and Giselle
Writing that there's no such thing as Nuevo is enough to start a spirited discussion. Gustavo and Giselle are the best living tango teachers in the world today, is an opinion that's not universally shared. Just about every promotional announcement that came across the wire said the advertised teacher was the best. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Nussbaum, Martin (Law) Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 12:52 PM I can't believe people are dredging up these old nuevo debates, must be trying intentionally to revive list thru antangonistic postings. There is no such thing as Nuevo, there is only good or bad dancing, given the circumstances (performance or social) and partner, spacing, music, etc. I doubt that Mario sopolete ever took a seminar with GyG. Gustavo and Giselle are the best living tango teachers in the world today. Their dance is a masterwork of interpretation, phrasing, musicality, and theme. The intimacy and joy they share on the dance floor is the reason I started dancing and a continued source of inspiration today. Best, Martin Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:11:12 + (UTC) From: Mario mailto:sopel...@yahoo.com sopel...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] Whatever happened to NUEVO ?? I remember when Tango L was last active...in the golden days of yore... my favorite debate revolved around Traditional and Nuevo dancing and music...having seen what happened to the golden years of Flamenco (50's) once the gypsy kings got hold of it, I was sure that Argentine Tango would go the same route to trivia...but it NEVER HAPENED !!! and today, by my own observations, the traditional dance is more popular than ever ..world wide was it as predicted and we grew older ??? any comments ?? watching a recent video of Gustavo and Giselle looked more like a Tango burlesque than a profound dance...to me, anywayany comments ??? Message: 2 From: Mario mailto:sopel...@yahoo.com sopel...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] NUEVO What ?? in a more readable form I'm trying to recall how to send a post in block form instead of a continuous line, here..maybe this will work ?.I remember when Tango L was last active...in the golden days of yore... my favorite debate revolved around Traditional and Nuevo dancing and music...having seen what happened to the golden years of Flamenco (50's) once the gypsy kings got hold of it, I was sure that Argentine Tango would go the same route to trivia...but it NEVER HAPENED !!! and today, by my own observations, the traditional dance is more popular than ever ..world wide ?was it as predicted and we grew older ??? any comments ?? watching a recent video of Gustavo and Giselle looked more like a Tango burlesque than a profound dance...to me, anywayany comments ??? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Whatever happened to NUEVO ??
I'm glad Nuevo is fading. I wish alternative would follow Nuevo. I once heard a Rhumba at a milonga so I danced...Rhumba. That definitely caused alarms because Rhuma isn't a travelling dance. Lois: I'm NOT taking your bait. I'm NOT going to ask why the 8 count basic shouldn't be taught. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Lois Donnay Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 3:48 PM I've been waiting to talk about this... My observations are that Nuevo appeals to people who have not yet grown to love tango music, or the tango embrace. That's why it fades away... Also, there was a rumor that the young kids in BA danced to Nuevo music. (Ageism...g) Example 1: We had a guy here who fell in love with tango, so much he became a DJ (for free!) and ran his own dance events. Since he was dating a long-time tango dancer, (and also was a musician, a male and handsome), he was more than welcomed into the community before much vetting of his music. He and I would get into it about his choices of music - I could not always tell the difference between the tanda and the cortina. I think he spent hours looking for modern music with the same tempo as tango, plus hours listening to more obscure tangos, the ones not danced to (for a reason) to surprise his attendees with. Well - now he has been to Buenos Aires, learned that the kids there are dancing to traditional music, and has learned a lot more about what makes music tango. He is a much better DJ! He's still mad at me, though... Example 2: There used to be a fairly popular event here, mostly Nuevo music. It has stopped because of lack of attendance. The people who went now have more time in tango, more appreciation for the music, and heard that the kids in BA are dancing to traditional tango. Thank you, Tango-L. I needed to get that off my chest. Now ask me why we should never teach the 8 count basic, please. Lois Donnay www.mndance.com On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Mario sopel...@yahoo.com wrote: I remember when Tango L was last active...in the golden days of yore... my favorite debate revolved around Traditional and Nuevo dancing and music...having seen what happened to the golden years of Flamenco (50's) once the gypsy kings got hold of it, I was sure that Argentine Tango would go the same route to trivia...but it NEVER HAPENED !!! and today, by my own observations, the traditional dance is more popular than ever ..world wide was it as predicted and we grew older ??? any comments ?? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gustavo and Giselle
The water isn't boiling, just simmering. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: robert-b Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 3:57 PM That's the spirit. Keep the kettle boiling. (Not so wild about GG myself.) Robert On Apr 17, 2015, at 1:43 PM, Michael tangoman...@optimum.net wrote: Writing that there's no such thing as Nuevo is enough to start a spirited discussion. Gustavo and Giselle are the best living tango teachers in the world today, is an opinion that's not universally shared. Just about every promotional announcement that came across the wire said the advertised teacher was the best. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Nussbaum, Martin (Law) Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 12:52 PM I can't believe people are dredging up these old nuevo debates, must be trying intentionally to revive list thru antangonistic postings. There is no such thing as Nuevo, there is only good or bad dancing, given the circumstances (performance or social) and partner, spacing, music, etc. I doubt that Mario sopolete ever took a seminar with GyG. Gustavo and Giselle are the best living tango teachers in the world today. Their dance is a masterwork of interpretation, phrasing, musicality, and theme. The intimacy and joy they share on the dance floor is the reason I started dancing and a continued source of inspiration today. Best, Martin Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:11:12 + (UTC) From: Mario mailto:sopel...@yahoo.com sopel...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] Whatever happened to NUEVO ?? I remember when Tango L was last active...in the golden days of yore... my favorite debate revolved around Traditional and Nuevo dancing and music...having seen what happened to the golden years of Flamenco (50's) once the gypsy kings got hold of it, I was sure that Argentine Tango would go the same route to trivia...but it NEVER HAPENED !!! and today, by my own observations, the traditional dance is more popular than ever ..world wide was it as predicted and we grew older ??? any comments ?? watching a recent video of Gustavo and Giselle looked more like a Tango burlesque than a profound dance...to me, anywayany comments ??? Message: 2 From: Mario mailto:sopel...@yahoo.com sopel...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] NUEVO What ?? in a more readable form I'm trying to recall how to send a post in block form instead of a continuous line, here..maybe this will work ?.I remember when Tango L was last active...in the golden days of yore... my favorite debate revolved around Traditional and Nuevo dancing and music...having seen what happened to the golden years of Flamenco (50's) once the gypsy kings got hold of it, I was sure that Argentine Tango would go the same route to trivia...but it NEVER HAPENED !!! and today, by my own observations, the traditional dance is more popular than ever ..world wide ?was it as predicted and we grew older ??? any comments ?? watching a recent video of Gustavo and Giselle looked more like a Tango burlesque than a profound dance...to me, anywayany comments ??? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The Good Ole Days
There is no such thing as a little flame. There were flames and then there were 3 alarm fires. I tend to only remember the 3 alarm fires. Be careful what you ask for, Randy. The flames helped destroy Tango L. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of miamidan...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 8:24 PM This has brought back many good ole memories. Daily postings about Tango from friends around the world. We could use a couple of little flames for ole times sake:) The Tango world has so benefited from Shahrukh's efforts with this list. The benefits have been priceless. Thank you Shahrukh. Tango Forever Randy ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why has Tango-L faded away?
Newbies consider themselves pioneers. Even though the path is well trodden, it's still new to them. I belong to www.dance-forums.com. I have to go to the website to look over topics and decide if I want to read the thread and join in the conversation. Tango L was a mailman that delivered topics to my front door. Some of the topics were junk mail and some were very interesting. There may be 1200 on the mailing list but I suspect the true number is probably lower because it probably includes inactive email addresses. An inactive email address doesn't always generate an undeliverable message. People are lazy and didn't take the time to unsubscribe. The Golden Age of Tango is over but the music isn't forgotten. There are other discussion venues but that doesn't mean Tango L is irrelevant. If Tango L continues, I will post a message to www.dance-forums.com that Tango L has risen like the phoenix. List members can send a similar message to groups they belong. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Shahrukh Merchant Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 6:44 PM Dear Tango-L members, I think there are a number of things that have come together to make a Tango-L type of list redundant. I don't think any one or even two of these items would kill a list like this, but combined they are all just that many nails in the coffin. 1. Tango Pioneering Times (no longer) In the early years of Tango-L, those involved in Tango were pioneers. Tango was new in the US and Europe, and probably even more fragmented in other parts of the world. A foreigner at a Buenos Aires milonga was a source of wonder for locals. Now it's just the opposite--I recently had a (non-Tango-dancing) Argentine friend tell me once (obviously she was misinformed, but it's still a perception), You dance Tango?? But you live here--I thought just tourists did that! The Stanford Tango Week was the only Tango festival in the world (I think) when Tango-L first got started. So of course the pioneers wanted to communicate with others as it was an intimate circle. Now, Tango is much more mature and even mainstream. People don't need a discussion list to talk about it any more than they need one to talk about their refrigerators (OK, Tango isn't quite that generic, but you get the point). Tango is just another activity for a far larger percentage of Tango dancers now than it was then. 2. Internet Pioneering Times (no longer) As others have mentioned, the Internet in its current form did not exist. There was no Google, no web pages with Tango information, initially only academics and those in large or tech corporations had email access (until AOL and Compuserve came along). A list-server was a rare and precious commodity. The ONLY was to find out about Tango outside your local community short of making a trip was via Tango-L. Obviously, the opposite is true now. A search for Tango just in Yahoo groups yields 1,884 matches. A search on Facebook Groups and Pages would no doubt yield many thousands more. Google can search pretty much anything Tango going on anywhere. What special role does or even can Tango-L have in this? 3. Static Membership This is more apparent to me than most people since I get notification of new members joining the list. It's a trickle, as it has been for the last several years. The list has been essentially static in membership for the last 5 years at least (about 1200 people altogether) and that total number has been constant pretty much since a year after Tango-L's inception. During that time, Tango has exploded in the world 10x or 100x perhaps. Of course a discussion mailing list of 10,000 or 100,000 would not be manageable other than as an announcement-only list, but the point is that if there is nothing to draw in new blood, the list can't possibly fulfill its original function. Maybe it can be a nostalgia list for Tango Pioneers or something like that, but that's a far cry from the original scope. Besides, it seems that the older members of the list have heard it all before and without the new blood, the discussions become repetitive. And the new blood tends to be younger, have a different perspective on Tango (for better or for worse, but that's besides the point), has never used mailing lists, has many more electronic media to choose between, or just plain doesn't identify with the increasingly old world view (from their standpoint) on Tango-L. 4. Changing Nature of Discussions The internet overload syndrome combined with greater use of smartphones has led to few people having the time or inclination for protracted internet discussions on anything. At one end of the spectrum, people would rather click to take a picture, click again to post it, and type 5 words (My cat dancing to D'Arienzo!) and be content with 50 people Like-ing it or replies like Mine prefers DiSarli ... LOL. At the other end of the spectrum, they would rather post something more significant
[Tango-L] Tango-L covert attacks
I never experienced this type of contact but I read other off-the-wall comments. I looked at Tango L as a fountain of information. I never suspected that colossal egos were involved. I belong to another list (which has nothing to do with tango.) There's a guy who flames. (Somebody on the list diagnosed him as having disassociate personality disorder.) He will start arguments and twist what people write to justify his comments. He loves to write You lose. I win though nobody can quite figure out what he won. This is a moderated list that nobody moderates. This was the mentality of some posters on Tango L. They had to be right and tried to destroy those who contradicted their belief system. I was unprepared for this behavior and stepped onto a few landmines. There will never be universal agreement on how to dance tango. Instead of appreciating diversity, it was my way or get off Tango L. Posters who you thought were your friends were stabbing you in the back in PMs. Moderation has to be discussed before the list is resurrected. Yes, rules were posted but they were often ignored by the same people over and over. (I'm not mentioning any names.) Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Steve Littler Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:38 PM Back around 2008 when I had been dancing for about 1 year I mentioned in a thread on Tango-L that I was taking some private lessons and how much it was accelerating my progress. Then some guy from NYC contacted me off-list and asked me what kind of dancer I was to take private lessons at such an early stage in my tango career and what kind of teacher would accept someone as a private student who hadn't been dancing already for 3 years minimum, and that this would never be done in NYC since the quality of the student would reflect on the teacher, and the status of the teacher had to be preserved. Did anyone else experience a similar contact. Abrazos! ~ El Stevito de Gainesville ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Email or FB?
Here's an alternative. I belong to a yahoo group that operates the same way as Tango L. (You need a yahoo mail address.) You register with the group. When a list member sends a message, everybody in the group gets the message. You don't have to add anybody to your contact list. Here's an example. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/School_of_Traditional_Argentine_Tango/in fo (I'm not a member of this group.) It has 22 members. Whenever any of the 22 sends a message, to the group address, everybody in the group gets the message. If anybody replies to the message, everybody in the group gets the message. The only addition to your contact list is the group's email address to send messages. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 9:47 AM I understand people's concern over FB. I also know people who refused to leave messages on answering machines when they became popular. Dance groups used to mail out fliers, but none in our area do now as it wasn't cost effective. Postcards with a website address has replaced fliers with all the info. Heck, there are even less postcards now announcing events. But boy, do I get a lot of event invites. What I have not heard are any suggestions on how to attract new voices to FB that would revive discussions and make it worthwhile to continue on MIT. Historically, most of the discussions on Tango-L were started by organizers, teachers, or those maintaining tango websites. All of the new teachers/organizers in my area are much more active in FB than on email listservs (except as it pertains to their work). It's a lot easier to friend someone than add an email to one's contact list. On the other tango listserv's that people use, how's the traffic there? Is it by new voices or the same ones? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Email or FB?
Retransmitting because part of the hyperlink was cut off. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/School_of_Traditional_Argentine_Tango/in fo Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better Here's an alternative. I belong to a yahoo group that operates the same way as Tango L. (You need a yahoo mail address.) You register with the group. When a list member sends a message, everybody in the group gets the message. You don't have to add anybody to your contact list. Here's an example. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/School_of_Traditional_Argentine_Tango/in fo (I'm not a member of this group.) It has 22 members. Whenever any of the 22 sends a message, to the group address, everybody in the group gets the message. If anybody replies to the message, everybody in the group gets the message. The only addition to your contact list is the group's email address to send messages. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 9:47 AM I understand people's concern over FB. I also know people who refused to leave messages on answering machines when they became popular. Dance groups used to mail out fliers, but none in our area do now as it wasn't cost effective. Postcards with a website address has replaced fliers with all the info. Heck, there are even less postcards now announcing events. But boy, do I get a lot of event invites. What I have not heard are any suggestions on how to attract new voices to FB that would revive discussions and make it worthwhile to continue on MIT. Historically, most of the discussions on Tango-L were started by organizers, teachers, or those maintaining tango websites. All of the new teachers/organizers in my area are much more active in FB than on email listservs (except as it pertains to their work). It's a lot easier to friend someone than add an email to one's contact list. On the other tango listserv's that people use, how's the traffic there? Is it by new voices or the same ones? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] FW: The resurrection of Tango-L?: Part 2. Who's still interested? And why or why not?
Shahrukh: Thanks for the summary. You asked - What ARE people using to get their Tango forum fix? I use www.dance-forums.com and choose the Argentine Tango forum. I don't belong to any of them, but there are a lot of Yahoo groups. BUT they are mostly limited to a geographic area. I didn't see any of a general discussion, like Tango L. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Email or FB?
Hello Trini: It's been a long time. I had to delete your message because it was too large to shove through the list with my response. I don't belong to Facebook and wouldn't join FB even if there was tango discussion group on it. Without going into great detail, I have concerns over how FB treats its member's privacy. I once started the registration process and before I finished, without permission, FB grabbed my address list and compared it to their address list. Then, I was asked if I wanted to friend the matches it found. That was enough for me to abort the registration process. Then I've read newspaper articles. Shahrukh: In the old days, a poster got an acknowledgement message that the person's message was accepted by the list and included the number of members. That statistic is missing from today’s acknowledgement message. How many members are there? (I understand the number may include old addresses from members who didn’t unsubscribe.) With technological advances, is it possible to increase the size of messages before they go to moderation because of space constraints? Abrazos, Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Sergio Suppa
NOW I remember him. I never knew his last name. He was in the eye of a hurricane. He would give wisdom in the middle of the flames and ad hominem attacks. He focused on the enjoyment of tango not who was right or wrong. A very sane voice surrounded by not so many sane voices. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Keith Elshaw Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 9:53 PM To: Tango L Subject: [Tango-L] Sergio Suppa I never met Sergio in person but we struck up a real friendship via email and I considered him generous and helpful to the tango community by writing interesting pieces for my website. I am very saddened by this news of his passing and send my condolences to his friends. Thank you Sean and Trini for the notice and pointing to his articles. I especially appreciate Tango-L for being the way I met Sergio 20 years ago. And I think there is something sweet about Tango-L being suddenly around just at the very time this has happened. I am shocked by his passing and at the same time grateful to know and be able to think of him now, I'm sure it would have been a long time before I would have heard otherwise, and this would have added even more sadness for me. That I have kept his writing up for these 18 or 20 years will show I hope how much respect I have for his words and thoughts. Keith http://ToTANGO.net ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Back in business
Thank you, Shakrukh for activating my email address to send messages. Before the list comes back into business, we need to have a conversation about moderation. I don't have statistics but I'm guessing 5% of the old list caused 80% of the problems, e.g. flames and ad hominem attacks. Then there was the problem that new members couldn't join unless their first message was approved. Without approval, their message stayed in moderation status and was never posted. Unfortunately, it all fell on Shahrukh. He needs to staff to monitor messages and add new members. Otherwise, Tango L will burn again. Glad to be back. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Back in business
I know new members add themselves to the list and receive messages immediately. However, they can't immediately post to the list. The moderator has to take them off moderation. [Administrator hat off] Hmm, do I even want to get into this? Perhaps we should know where you were before. ;-) Are you referring to me? I moved, got a new ISP and email address and was locked out of posting. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -Original Message- From: Shahrukh Merchant Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 7:29 PM Before the list comes back into business, we need to have a conversation about moderation. I don't have statistics but I'm guessing 5% of the old list caused 80% of the problems, e.g. flames and ad hominem attacks. Oh, that was going to be part of my Part 2 for tomorrow, but don't let that stop the rest of you from opining meanwhile ... Then there was the problem that new members couldn't join unless their first message was approved. Without approval, their message stayed in moderation status and was never posted. Actually, it doesn't work like that at all. Anyone can join (they get an auto-confirm message to click to confirm their email address like anything else you join with an email address). Their first posts are moderated, as with almost all fora, mostly to catch spammers, and secondarily to catch newbie mistakes. (Those put back on moderation for misbehaviour are few and far between, probably more like 0.5%, though there are some defensive cases where someone's email address got hacked and started sending auto-spam to their address book including the list.) Unfortunately, it all fell on Shahrukh. He needs to staff to monitor messages and add new members. Otherwise, Tango L will burn again. There is no staff. New members don't need to be added manually--they add themselves. Moderation can take as little or as much time as the moderator wishes (more on that tomorrow). Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better [Administrator hat off] Hmm, do I even want to get into this? Perhaps we should know where you were before. ;-) Shahrukh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] why music is played in class
I find that in any class, about HALF of the couples can't immediately execute the figure. The instructors move around the room helping them. Confused couples not being helped watch the couples being helped to try to figure out what to do. This is NOT necessarily an issue of technique. It can be an issue of understanding the figure. I NEVER wrote nor suggested that the figure itself is more important than placing it in the context of music. I wrote if you can't execute without the music, you can't execute with the music so understand the figure FIRST. Michael Going home to New York after 35+ years - Original Message - From: Nussbaum, Martin I am really shocked when I read comments like Michael's who said he doesnt understand why music is played in class, for the alleged reason that it intereferes with his ability to learn the figure. This suggests that he believes executing the figure itself is more important than placing it in the context of the music. If he wants to practice the technique for a movement, he can do that at home by himself, without music. The technique, turns , balance, alignment, is basically the same for all steps in the dance, and once you have it any figure shown in any workshop is a piece of cake. The point to learning a figure is not to show how athletic you are, or how good your memory is, but to place it in the narrative of the story you are expressing when you dance tango. Otherwise, the figure is meaningless, no matter how well or poorly its done. I would so much rather dance with followers who are musical than with someone who is technically proficient at figures, and many followers agree with that statement as it applies to leaders. Thankfully, the best teachers around the world dont agree with Michael, they emphasize integrating the rhythm and expression of the figure into the musical phrase. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy
12+ count sequences encourages dancers to think of tango like ballroom, where there's ONLY way to do a figure because it's tied to the count of the music. Tango doesn't have any count that has to be followed like Cha cha, Samba, Waltz, etc. I think it's better to discover new ways of splicing already known figures together. The problem with difficult figures is they only seem to work in the class. They don't seem to work to well outside the class. I've seen men at milongas rush women or throw them off their axis for some crazy figure that takes up too much space for what is available. I don't understand why music is played in classes. I can't learn a figure as fast as the music is playing. (I know I'm NOT the only one.) I need to stop and think about what I'm leading. If I can't lead a figure without music, I can't lead it with music. I agree with what Trini wrote in another message about absorbing chunks of info. When is started, I wrote down what I was supposed to do. I even wrote the steps for taking a woman to the cross on cross feet. After a while I just wrote Go to cross on cross feet. Michael Going home to New York after 35+ years - Original Message - From: Alexis Cousein Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy On 05/07/2011 23:00, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: Yes, and a teacher would do that for an intermediate workshop but shouldn't be doing it for an advanced workshop. Exactly my point: it gets us to the point where it's no longer needed to be able to handle 12+ count sequences in an advanced class. Or is that you need to be able to... another way of saying that to do the advanced class you simply need to be a splicing and reassembler expert who recognizes splice sites, who can see the forest for the trees even in a long sequence? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy
Jack: I think men and women have DIFFERENT definitions of advanced. Men seem to be fixated on figures so advanced means being able to lead difficult figures well. (A woman can tell if a figure is lead well, not necessarily the man.) Women aren't focused on figures as much as men. MY definition of an advanced woman is one who can interject her personality into the dance, connecting with her partner and music. Personality means adding flair and style to her dancing. For example, some women step over a man's foot like walking down the sidewalk. Others take their time, stepping over but not immediately putting their weight on that foot. My teacher told me that one day I wouldn't need any more lessons from him. I should concentrate on developing my personal style because I knew enough figures. Milongas seem to be competitive with who can do the most difficult figures. Occasionally while sitting out a tanda, I observe women's faces. Very few look exhilarated with their eyes nailed shut. Some have a look of desperation (I don't know what he wants.) Other's have a look of boredom. Women express their feelings with their bodies. Men should pay attention. Michael Going home to New York after 35+ years From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com Second thing is to put requirements up to get into an advanced workshop. From: Jack Dylan I'm not really sure what constitutes an 'advanced dancer'. But, IMHO, to become one requires a lot of private lessons. After that, is there really any point in attending any type of group class, advanced or otherwise? One reason might be to meet famous teachers / performers with whom you can't afford private lessons. But I doubt an advanced dancer will learn much from their workshops. Unless they're just looking for a new figure or sequence. Is that it? Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy
It would be even better if labels were eliminated COMPLETELY. I read one festival where intermediate was defined as dancing for 3 years and advanced was defined as dancing for 3 years. Are labels used to describe milongas? Are milongas advertised as advanced, intermediate, or beginner? Beginners are the only dancers who tell their skill level without being asked. I remember reading on the list a long time ago about a workshop given by Fabian Salas and (I think) Carolina Rivera. (I hope I got that right.) The lister wrote the class was advertised as advanced but it was filled with non advanced dancers. Fabian and Carolina didn't know how to handle the disparity in skill level. Advanced dancers were upset they weren't going to get advanced material and non advanced were upset that the workshop was going to be beyond their skill level. My teacher taught group lessons for two groups: beginners and experienced. After he evaluated the experienced, he decided what to teach them, even sending some of them back to beginners. Michael Going home to New York after 35+ years Lois Donnay don...@donnay.net wrote: Despite reciting the mantra Beginners go to Int., Int. go to advanced, Advanced go to beginners they just can't bring themselves to show up at a beginner class. There they are at advanced workshops, learning back sacadas and single axis turns. What can teachers do for these people? Trini wrote: First thing they can do is quit using words like advanced to actually refer to non-advanced classes. I hear people all the time say they are taking an advanced class when I know perfectly well the class level is actually an intermediate level material. Second thing is to put requirements up to get into an advanced workshop. I've done that for years without a problem. If teachers do not hold to certain standards, then others can't be blamed for not knowing how poorly they do. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Getting tango lessons to the needy
Lois: Part of dancing well is having awareness. Your community did that man a great favor by opening his eyes even though ignorance is bliss. To paraphrase Colonel Nathan Jessep in the movie A Few Good Men, He couldn't handle the truth. How he dealt with the revelation is his problem. There's nothing you can do about it. The man at least went outside his comfort zone and danced with strangers. The only thing that will convince a man to improve - - is when women stop dancing with him. As long as women continue to dance with a poor leader because they don't want to hurt his feelings, he has no motivation (nor clue) to improve. As long as workshops give people what they WANT instead of what they NEED, the problem you described will continue. I remember a friend and I taking a private lesson with a well known NY teacher and dancer. We wanted to learn the latest fad- Volcadas. Before she would teach the figure, the teacher wanted to see me lead a calesitra. She wanted to ensure I knew how to support a woman's weight when she is slightly off axis. The Argentines only use about seven figures to dance. That was a wake up call when I visited BA. Michael Going home to New York after 35+ years ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Heads up
David: I can't give any positive reason but an explanation. This is prevalent when the man is much taller than the woman and he compensates for the height difference, trying for cheek-to-cheek. Some men bend their knees more than usual and dance like Quasimodo. (I hope the spelling is correct.) Michael Going home to New York after 35+ years - Original Message - From: hbboog...@aol.com To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 12:22 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Heads up I think most would agree that tango is about balance, axis, posture and walking in a natural manner. So here is my question, how can you dance with balance, on axis and with good posture if your head is looking down at the floor? The head is very heavy about 10 - 12 pounds and I see many dancers even those claiming to be teachers dancing looking down at the floor? And what in the world are you looking for? Is this why you are always bumping into others? Are you such a bad leader you need to look down to see where the follower’s feet are? Help me out here if you dance this way give me one positive reason why. Thanks David ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
Sharon: Let's put aside musicality for now. Beginner leaders are rarely taught HOW to lead. They are usually taught WHAT to lead. The emphasis is what does the man do with his feet. This reinforces that it's more important for the man to know what he is doing instead of what the woman should be doing. I teach the CONCEPT of leading. I talk about food shopping and put a chair with wheels in front of myself. I explain I don't push the chair to get it out of my way and step forward. I illustrate that my arms are part of my frame and the upper body has to move first. If my feet move first, I'll kick the chair (shopping cart.) The sequence is I come onto the balls of my feet, my weight moves forward and energy is transmitted to the chair though my arms. The chair moves backward and NOW there is space for me to move forward. I don't think men are taught the A frame. Just because there isn't room at chest level doesn't mean there isn't room on the floor. If the man leads the woman to step backward, there will be space for the man to come forward. If he's afraid the woman won't move, he will forcibly push with his arms or step around the woman. Michael Going home to New York On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Sharon Pedersen sharon.peder...@gmail.comwrote: I've been watching some new leaders in our community, and they struggle with alking. Huge steps leading with their legs, or holding themselves in an awkward contorted stance and walking with always-bent legs, or taking very wide steps when walking forwards, or being unable to coordinate to a relatively slow beat and having to hover the foot in the air waiting for the beat to catch up before putting it down. How do you help your beginners to walk reasonably and musically?-- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Men's strategies
Hello Sherie: BA milongas are not like US milongas so I'll stick to BA now. 1) Don't look like a foreigner. Argentines dance in their street shoes. A man changing his shoes at his table is a give away that he is a foreigner. 2) Dress nicely and don't look like a slob. Nicely is defined as tuck your shirt in and don't wear dungarees, especially if they are worn and torn. 3) Be patient. Observe the milonga and the social dynamics for the first hour. Notice that everybody clears the floor during the cortina and women aren't asked to dance before the music of the next tanda begins. Notice the simple vocabulary. 4) Understand cabeceo before you arrive at the milonga. Find the woman you want to dance with and look at her WITH A SMILE on your face. Nobody wants to dance with a grumpy person. 5) Know some Spanish because couples don't immediately start dancing when the next tango in the tanda begins. Your partner will say something. Be prepared. Michael I danced with the Argentines- - in Argentina On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:51 PM, sherp...@aol.com wrote: When men visit a community outside of their home base, or when they go to dance in BsAs, what strategies do you use to get women to return your cabaceo and start dancing with you? What do you do to get that first dance that gives other women an idea of what kind of dancer you are? How do you get your dancing ball rolling? Sherrie -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Men's strategies
Sherie: Clearly, I didn't catch everything because it was so subtle. When I drive a car, I keep my mind on the road even if I'm playing a tango CD. When I dance, I only think about the woman I'm dancing with, not the next one I want to dance. I can't lose my focus. Abrazos, Michael On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 9:03 PM, sherp...@aol.com wrote: Micheal, this is wonderful, i am glad you shared it with the listI have one issue to disagree with...often in BA , the next tanda with a new partner is pre arranged on the dancefloor. AS men are dancing with one woman, they are signaling to another women with whom they want to dance for the next tanda...many of these arrangements are made ahead of time, way before the cortina, while the people are dancing with other partners...very interesting, sherrie From: Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net Hello Sherie: BA milongas are not like US milongas so I'll stick to BA now. 1) Don't look like a foreigner. Argentines dance in their street shoes. A man changing his shoes at his table is a give away that he is a foreigner. 2) Dress nicely and don't look like a slob. Nicely is defined as tuck your shirt in and don't wear dungarees, especially if they are worn and torn. 3) Be patient. Observe the milonga and the social dynamics for the first hour. Notice that everybody clears the floor during the cortina and women aren't asked to dance before the music of the next tanda begins. Notice the simple vocabulary. 4) Understand cabeceo before you arrive at the milonga. Find the woman you want to dance with and look at her WITH A SMILE on your face. Nobody wants to dance with a grumpy person. 5) Know some Spanish because couples don't immediately start dancing when the next tango in the tanda begins. Your partner will say something. Be prepared. Michael I danced with the Argentines- - in Argentina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The spread of Tango
Janis sent me a link to her youtube collection. Below is a link to a Lo de Celia Tango Club milonga. http://www.youtube.com/jantango#p/search/0/ZdD-J3w3g-Y Regardless of style, EVERYBODY is dancing close embrace. Michael Going home to New York after 35+ years From: Michael Janis Kenyon posted some youtube videos from Por Lo Celia on her blog but I forgot the link. Google can probably find it. I don't define traditional as to whether salon or milonguero style is danced but by logistics. Single and unaccompanied dancers sit across from each other in a well illuminated room and cabeceo is used to invite and accept a dance. This by itself is enough to separate BA milongas from those in the United States where the room is usually dark, cabeceo can't be used, and women look like commuters waiting for a late subway, bus, or train to arrive. Michael Going home to New York after 35+ years From: Gordon Erlebacher It would be nice to have a video tape to illustrate what is meant by traditional milonga, which sport several styles I believe. I went to Por Lo Celia, which appeared to be quite traditional milonga and they dance salon (I define salon as a style closer to Urquiza, which many Milongueros dance as well). Gordon And, for clarity, when I say the tango of BsAs, I'm referring to the tango at traditional milongas. Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Interesting Tango Listing
This is part of an announcement for a tango festival: Note on Class Subjects - At the request of the maestros', no class topics will be announced ahead of time. Instead, all classes will be rated by level only. This is what normally happens in Buenos Aires and the purpose is to give the instructors an opportunity to first observe the particular group in the classroom to determine what would be the best topic to teach. They believe that many factors contribute toward the actual level of dancing and request this courtesy to craft a lesson that adapts to what the students in each class can best perceive. I deleted the maestros' names because they aren't important for this message. This is very interesting. I wonder if this will impact how people choose workshops. Abrazos, Michael Going home to New York after 35+ years ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] I can Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLEfi7w5XuQ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] I don't know but...
And guess what? NO MUSIC for the instruction. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Myk Dowling To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] I don't know but... On 28/04/11 07:54, Mario wrote: I'm thinking that this is a really good video for eliminating the mystique of a not so easy move: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLz9qC1RjVg It's interesting, if you ignore the intention of their teaching method and just study it as a leader. It's a nice tight turn, and leading into the cross from a sidestep is kinda neat. Have to try that. Not sure if I've actually done it before or not. Myk, in Canberra ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
Jack: I also dance ballroom so I can answer the question. Not only is ballroom 100% figure based, it's also 100% musically based. Each dance has an unique cadence which is repeated throughout the dance. Cha Cha is S-S-Q-Q-S or numerically 2-3-4--1. Fox Trot is S-S-Q-Q. Quick step is S-Q-Q-S. These cadences are repeated over and over. It doesn't make any difference which orchestra is playing the music. It makes a BIG difference which orchestra is playing AT. IMHO, DiSarli and Pugliese are polar opposites. Once you start a figure, you have to finish a figure. In AT, there are always possibilities after every step. In my ballroom lessons, my teacher will say that's a slow, not a quick. No AT teacher would say that's supposed to be a slow. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Jack Dylan To: tango-l List Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music? Yes, this is the way ballroom is taught because it's 100% figure-based. Unless the couple each know their steps to the same standard figures, they can't dance together. And yet, by some miracle, having learned the steps, they have no problem dancing those steps to the music. In fact, IMHO, ballroom dancers, on average, dance to the music far better than most tango dancers. No comment on why that is. Jack From: Tom Stermitz sterm...@tango.org I have heard this is common in ballroom, but I don't have direct experience there. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Did you wow your partner?
Sharon: I mean that the woman finishes her adornment, step over, or something else at the end of a measure or phrase. (It feels better at the end of a phrase because it feels like a period at the end of a sentence.) She takes her time to add an adornment to her boleo or stepover. She knows what I have lead and subtly sends a signal Don't worry. I'll finish on time with the music. This is part of tango's dialogue. I communicate Do whatever you want. I'll wait for you. Just don't hurt me! I'm not a DJ so the best advice I give is listen to Pugliese. His music is very strongly marked, like an army marching. Walk to his music and you'll feel the end of phrases. Musically, I'm pretty sure a phrase is 16 measures. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Sharon Pedersen To: Tango-L Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Did you wow your partner? On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net wrote: I compliment good dancers where good is defined as ease of movement and musicality, What is the measure of a follower's musicality? (Measure is the wrong word for this, but I can't think of the right word.) For a leader, I measure musicality by, most basically, are they on the beat, but then, are they surging and suspending with the music, dancing large and small, fast and slow, as the music moves. But what can a follower do, bound as she is to dance the music the leader dances? Puzzled (but eager for enlightenment), __Sharon ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Did you wow your partner?
Hello Sharon: My BA tango tour guide, Janis, told me that the embrace reveals everything. Does your leader embrace or suffocate you? Does your leader hold you like a precious vase or like a shopping bag? I compliment good dancers where good is defined as ease of movement and musicality, NOT how many figures she knows. The surprised look on their faces sends the unmistakable message they don't get many compliments. A man has to appreciate a woman's skill level before he can be WOWED. Michael Moving to New York City - Original Message - From: Sharon Pedersen On Sunday, April 24, 2011, Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net wrote: How do you know you wowed your partner? I couldn't make head nor tails of Mario's post, but Michael's question is something I've been thinking about for awhile, in that I'm not sure how I feel to my partner. I don't get many compliments on my following, although recently I've gotten a few comments that I'm dancing much smoother than I used to. Plus in the past few weeks, with a few crucial privates, I'm undergoing something of a seachange in my following, and am more often feeling really solid in my dancing. I think that translates to a good feeling for my leader, but I don't know for sure. So: can you tell how you feel to your partner? --Sharon ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Fw: Better? Worse? Just different
I see things differently. Technique and musicality are two important ingredients to dancing tango. You can't learn both simultaneously. My private lessons dealt with technique followed months later with musicality. If you can't lead a figure without the music, you can't lead it with the music. I really don't understand why music is used in workshops when participants are trying to figure out how to execute the figure. Dancers learn at their own speed, and it's usually slower than the music. Playing music only leads to frustration. It's difficult to have a line of dance in a workshop when people stop in the line to figure out why something isn't working. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Moving to New York City hbboog...@aol.com wrote: “The Music” first you need to learn the music second is “The Heart” you need to feel the music in your heart only then can you dance Tango * Tango is first and last a very special form of music. Argentina is a culture of warm feelings. So much more open and expressive than Anglo-American culture. To focus on the dance and the steps is to get it entirely wrong. Beginners should be told to listen to the music and helped to understand the music and should be given to understand that their dancing can only develop as their understanding and appreciation of the music grows. I must confess I am pessimistic. Jonathan Thornton ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Better? Worse? Just different.
Jack: Thanks for remembering: Below are the figures I observed danced by the Argentines: Walking Ocho Cortado Molinete (to the right and left) Back Ocho Boleo I didn't see any figures that take up a lot of room because there wasn't a lot of room. The Argentines value connection, not figures. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Jack Dylan To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:16 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Better? Worse? Just different. I was merely agreeing with what you were told by an Argentine is Buenos Aires. And my agreement was based on what I've seen at many traditional milongas in Buenos Aires. If you don't agree that's fine; it's all Tango; but it's not all 'traditional'. But you asked a direct question and I responded. Don't blame me if you don't like the answer. I told you what I think is traditional tango. How about you reciprocate and tell us what you think it is. Or anybody else for that matter. I'd be interested to hear. Somebody wrote, quite a while ago, [Michael, I think] that the Argentines in Buenos Aires dance only 5 or 6 figures and I'm sure he didn't include leg wraps in that. Btw, I don't think the shape of the embrace is the defining factor. You can dance huge triple Volcadas in close embrace but I don't think anyone would call that 'traditional'. Jack - Original Message From: Brick Robbins br...@brickrobbins.com So anyone who dances wraps in their tango, no matter the shape of the embrace, is not dancing traditional tango. Thank you for making that clear. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Denver roommate
Hello all, I'm looking for a roomie for Denver Festival; please respond to michaelfig...@yahoo.com Thanks, Michael from Houston ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] sound
Hello all, A question for the dj/audiophiles; I'd like to get a Bose Wave radio/cd player. I know you can get the accessory to play music from an ipod, but is there a way to play from any mp3 player, any brand? Thanks, Michael ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] marketing survey
Dear Tangonista: This is useful information. I remember seeing tango rules posted at a milonga. One of them was follow the line of dance. (Lewis and Clark found a path to the Northwest but a lot of people can't find the line of dance.) Perhaps some of the observations could be printed in local tango magazines or posted at milonga and practica entrances. Milonga or practica promoters could read them or announce they should be read. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines From: meaning of life in an effort to build our tango community, we did a small, informal, and unscientific marketing survey. the sample consisted of young (plus or minus a bit 17-21), likely dancers (already dancing something for the most part), male and female. our hope was to figure out why there was a problem attracting the younger dancers. here were the responses: 1) icky music 2) boring 3) don't like to dance with people i don't know or don't like 4) stinky old men 5) too many rules 6) not fun 7) can't just do it (remember, these are people who already can dance, just not tango) 8) boring practice 9) too slow 10) not cardio enough 11) creepy 12) need special shoes we also attempted to contact people who had dissapeared after one or a few lessons. The majority reflected the above answers, but also commented on feeling berated by people trying to teach them during a practica environment. there were alot of negative comments related to well meaning but less then competent people (my words) teaching during practicas, and either 1) making it no fun 2) making it confusing 3) teaching things that were kinisthetically incorrect (this was from real dancers, with good credentials, but not in tango). and finally, the people that i saw dancing were not doing a dance that i want to do, this was a comment on style, not tango. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] A Training Scale
Lisa: My teacher told me that A lead is an invitation to step. A man holds the door open at a building for a woman to enter. He signals with his eyes, arm or some other body part that she should enter the building. She enters without being shoved through the doorway. But what are men taught about leading? Inviting or shoving through the doorway? On the rare occasions a woman asks me for feedback, I take her hand and tell her we're walking on the sidewalk. She doesn't have any problem walking forward,in a circle, backward, nor rocking. The moment her mind goes to dancing, the brain takes over and she concentrates on what she has learned in class, not what is being invited. The fear of making a mistake trumps everything. But then, what is dancing? Dancing is walking to music! If you can walk and feel your body's rhythm, you can dance. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Washington, DC (hopefully not for much longer) However, and this is not personal to you at all: I don't like the language of lead and follow. Follower seems to imply something very passive. As if the follower were only an expression of the leader's will. As if she had no bones, muscles, or mind. Or, as if she had no part in the creation of the dance. I once heard Corina de la Rosa define leading as proposing something about the music. I like that description very much. Note that it is proposing and it is not dictating, forcing, telling, screaming, controlling or commanding. All those negatives could be associated with leading. Further, with proposing, then the dance partner is still left to dance and express herself - to accept the proposal and to make it reality. Lisa Battan ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] how can one attract more male dancers on the dancefloor?
Larry: IMHO, what you describe is universal in the United States. There are no codes in the States as in Buenos Aires. Sometimes, it looks like men swoop in like hawks or eagles looking for prey. I remember the first year I went to the Atlanta Tango Festival. I thought I'd use cabeceo. I used it - - and nobody else did so I lost out. The following years, I had to be more assertive. Dancers go to dance so they dance with the first person they see or asks them. When I started, I thought I have to get all the dancing I can so I can improve. Instead I picked up a lot of bad habits. As long as dancers value quantity over quality, the problem will persist. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Larry Richelli I would like to talk about a subject that might be relevant to any Dancing community in general, any Tango community in particular: how can one attract more male dancers on the dance floor? One only need to study the tango community in San Diego. There are more men then woman at almost any milonga. It is hard for me because I like to hear the music before I pick a dance partner and one cannot do this in San Diego. If you don't have a partner by the first note of the music, you don't get a dance that tanda. I have not been able to figure this phenomena out, but it is one of the only places I have seen this, so there is something different going on there! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] How to put some oomph into your lead
Mario: First, the definition of factoid: 1.. A piece of unverified or inaccurate information that is presented in the press as factual, often as part of a publicity effort, and that is then accepted as true because of frequent repetition Did you really mean to use the word factoid? 2. I don't see any shooting of the feet or walking on cobble stones. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines From: Mario Subject: [Tango-L] How to put some oomph into your lead This is an interesting and helpful (for the lead) factoid that I picked up from a couple websites devoted to tango it's called 'shooting the feet' or 'walking on cobble stones.' Here's a good example with the performance dance of Jorge Firpo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_86QW0UjIg Note that there is no lackadaisacal walking in this dance..no loosly taking a step but rather a strong marking of the step ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Using the Social dance as THE model for the student
Mario: I don't know why you're so excited. Two and three year students are still trying to figure out how to lead. The figures themselves are unimportant. The salient lesson of the video is how the couple moves as one. Michael Going to New York next week I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Mario http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dARRFHJ-M7Y Here is another Milonguero dance of GIANT value to the 2 and 3 years student lead of the dance to help him with putting together a whole dance, one piece of beauty in the traditional Argentine tango dance. For me the eye-opener is the simplicity of the movements...always going to the cross footed dance with the standard salida, giros mostly counter clockwise and walks to the cross. I mean that's it!!! even beginner leads get taught this in the first few months and here it is...the few turns and walks but done impeccably to the music...therein is THE factor that makes the dance a whole and a thing of beauty...simplicity and musicality. enjoy ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Using the Social dance as THE model for the student
No, Mario. What I see is you want somebody to copy somebody else's dance so they don't have to come up with their own. This is NOT Dancing with the Stars where the pro choreographs a dance for the celebrity to memorize. Do you really want somebody to dance the SAME dance over and over again? My teacher told me, Step side left with the woman. You're on your left foot. What foot is the woman standing? If she's standing on her right foot, what can you lead? Teaching a man how to think is more important than memorizing a routine. Memorized routines don't work when you run out of space. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines From: Mario What I'm enthused about is arriving at a 'whole' dance...from beginning to end... expressed throughout as one whole fluid reaction to the music. I'm comparing again to language aquisition; the difference between studying 'parts of speech' (which doesn't work by-the-way) and hanging into a fluent conversation... as I see it from having just gone thru it., the BIG problem for the 2 and 3 years student is putting it all together and enjoying a complete dance...and at the end feeling that he expressed a whole, complete pice of art. Don't you see what I'm getting at? Fluency produces fluency...you study fluency by practicing fluency...not grammar. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Navigation (was: Using the social dance as THE model)
At a traditional BA milonga, like Lo de Celia, the single men and women are segregated on either side of the floor and use cabeceo to ask for and accept a dance. The ONLY time two partners can talk is when the music starts to play. I noticed that about 60% of the couples are moving within 30 seconds of the music's start, an additional 30% are moving within the next fifteen seconds, and the remaining ten percent are moving about one minute into the selection. It would be wonderful if the late starters were congregated in the center but they are spread around the dance floor. I saw one Argentine actually shove another who wasn't moving. I try not to pass but there are kamikaze leaders who suddenly cut in front of me for time consumming figures. When there's a parada, I can't tell how long his performance is going to be so I'll move around. The biggest problem is when milonga is played because a lot of people dance like it's tango. Milonga is designed for movement, not pauses nor time consumming figures. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines John The main reason for standing and chatting before starting to dance is for the man to “Mark the music” listen to the music the beat the rhythm. In BA it drives me crazy to stand there for 30 or 40 seconds after the music starts before you start dancing. I force myself to comply out of respect for the rules of the milongas in BA. In the US I think it’s okay to mark the music for a couple of seconds and go. Nothing pisses me off more then the idiot that just got back from BA and thinks he’s a milonguero and needs to stand there for eternity after the music starts. I’m like you in the US I’ll dance past someone who’s holding up the floor chatting but once the floor is moving I rarely will pass another couple. David tang...@gmail.com writes: Oh, and I can't abide the way we all feel bound to affect the Buenos Aires interminable chat at the start of every song. Sorry, I like to dance, so I just listen for the music and go. That usually results in passing 5 couples, deep in conversation. Guys, it's not like the women are chaperoned by their mothers any more, or that you must leave them at the ladies tables, BsAs style. Can't you chat somewhere else? John ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Re] The woman turns around the man? was: Navigation
Gordon: I'm not convinced that Alberto had it exactly right. If the dance is circular, that means there's no reason to move around the floor. Ballroom smooth dances (Waltz, Foxtrot, International and American Tango, Quickstep) move around the floor. They have circular figures but you still move around the floor in a line of dance. Most Latin dances stay in one place so there is no line of dance. There is a little floor progression in Samba and Meringue, though not as much as the smooth dances. The description you wrote sounds like a molinete. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines --- On Thu, 1/13/11, Gordon Erlebacher gerlebac...@fsu.edu wrote: Alberto Paz from New Orleans taught us to face the wall when we start. He said on our very first tango lesson 7 years ago: In tango: the woman turns around the man, and the mean turns around the floor. The implication clearly was that the dance was circular and not linear. Thanks Alberto: you had it exactly right. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Navigation: Now ocho cortado
This video wasn't attached to the message I responded from Trini in Pittsburgh. Also, Elena didn't commit her full weight to left foot. Notice that she didn't close. If she had ALL of her weight on her left foot, the next step would be for her to move her right foot. Her right foot stayed in place and her weight rocked back onto her right foot so she could cross with the left. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Don Klein To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Navigation: Now ocho cortado But look at the object video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbUai1Lv5-0. Elena clearly commits weight left at about 22 seconds and then right to the cruzada. Don Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net wrote: The problem with not being able to execute the ocho cortado is FRAME. The man steps sideways to his right for a rock step, and then rotates his shoulders to the left with a slight lift, closing his feet. The woman should step side left but not commit her weight to the left foot because it's a rock step. This is identical to leading the woman to the cross. The lift is needed to tell the woman to keep her weight on the right foot. If the woman's frame is too tight (pushing her right hand outward as far and as stiff as she can), she has physically locked her frame so she can't stay on her right foot. Her stiff frame pushes herself onto her left foot. Now on her left foot, the only way she can get in front of the man is with a forward ocho. Another problem is if the man leads a side step that's too big, forcing the woman to transfer her weight to her left foot ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Navigation: Now ocho cortado
Hello Trini: The problem with not being able to execute the ocho cortado is FRAME. The man steps sideways to his right for a rock step, and then rotates his shoulders to the left with a slight lift, closing his feet. The woman should step side left but not commit her weight to the left foot because it's a rock step. This is identical to leading the woman to the cross. The lift is needed to tell the woman to keep her weight on the right foot. If the woman's frame is too tight (pushing her right hand outward as far and as stiff as she can), she has physically locked her frame so she can't stay on her right foot. Her stiff frame pushes herself onto her left foot. Now on her left foot, the only way she can get in front of the man is with a forward ocho. Another problem is if the man leads a side step that's too big, forcing the woman to transfer her weight to her left foot. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Navigation I've also noticed issues with certain vocabulary since milonguero style has become more prevalent. Such as women having more difficulty recognizing moments to cross and anticipating ocho cortado rather than forward ochos. Anyone else have that experience? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it the guy who's doing the 'teaching' ?
Instead of leading, I'm using intention. I had a lot of situations during my private lessons where my teacher, as follower, didn't execute what I wanted. He said I followed what you lead. My only response was Well, what I lead isn't what I intended. He then explained that I rotated my shoulders the wrong way, pushed him with my arm, or something else. Many times, I'd stop because I didn't get the desired result. Joe said Why did you stop. You should keep going. That was an important lesson. If the woman dances an unintended figure, I have to adapt, keep going and not let her know something went wrong. The woman can't teach because she doesn't know the man's intention, only his lead. Instead of stopping on the floor and advertising there was a mistake, he should make a mental note and try to figure it out later. Now, about professionals teaching dance. Dancing and teaching are two SEPARATE skills. The best dancers aren't necessarily the best teachers. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines From: Mario Subject: [Tango-L] why is it always the guy who's doing the 'teaching' ? Is it something primiordal or perhaps a mating ritual but why is it always the guy on the dance floor who is doing the 'teaching'? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Movie Black Swan
I saw the movie Black Swan today. It's the story of a ballerina who wins the title role in a company's rendition of Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake. The story is about a white swan and her opposite ego, the black swan. Usually, a different ballerina dances each role but in this movie, the artistic director wants ONE woman to dance both roles. While the movie deals with ballet and not tango, some of the dialogue between the artistic director and the Natalie Portman character, Nina, is instructive. Nina has no problem with the white swan role but has artistic expression problems with the black swan role. She concentrates too much on technique, trying to be perfect. The director tells Nina to lose yourself and stop fixating on technique. Control is wonderful, except when it gets in the way of unleashing the inner person. The dialogue caused me to think of tango festivals and the mix between class hours and time available for milongas. I like the Atlanta Tango Festival (none this year, unfortunately) because there are two classes a day followed by two milongas, I went to a festival last year that had about 4 classes a day and one milonga. I will never write that technique isn't important. But shouldn't a dancer reach a point where technique is sufficient and now can concentrate more on the music and partner? I discovered on my Buenos Aires odyssey last year that the Argentines (not Argentineans) know about seven figures and concentrate on connection, which is their reason to dance. The figures are only a means to that end. Do North Americans concentrate so much on technique and figures, trying to be perfect, that they are unable to unleash their inner person? Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Learning from You Tube
Mario: Tango is filled with nuances. I don't see nuances in videos. You can question teachers but you can't question a video. There were plenty of times during my private lessons when my teacher didn't follow my lead. Well, he did follow my lead BUT my lead wasn't what I intended. I had to stop and really think and feel my intention. The true test of a man's skill is NOT his self-evaluation, but the evaluation from his partners. Women have subtle ways of expressing their opinion in their embrace. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Mario sopel...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] Learning from You Tube Now that I have been dancing for 3 1/2 years I can say with confidence that YES one can learn from Utube. Not without qualification however. At first seeing such a great resource I couldn't understand why sooo many were warning NOT to study the dancing on these videos ...I suspected that most of the warnings were from teachers who wanted to preserver their status and business..and to an extent this was true. Now, I can say again honestly that it has taken me three years to understand that there is much more than what first meets the eye..in order to really appreciate what I was/am seeing. However, I am VERY grateful to have had and still have this magnificent resource to learn from. I can't advise a newcomer how to use this resourse except to say ..YES, keep looking and feeling and observing and experiencing in your own dancing in the social dance...that which you observe in the social dance videos... this is in the video but only seen by someone who has accumulated the necessary wins and defeats to be able to appreciate what he/she is seeing... don't give up! . the videos show this but it takes time to see/experience it. adelante! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Statistical Tango
I remember learning Pareto optimality in my statistics class at the University of Hartford. Pareto was an Italian economist who discovered that a high proportion of a population have low incomes, while a small proportion have very high incomes. It has sometimes been reduced to the 80/20 Rule which is described in economics where 80% of the wealth is in the hands of 20% of the population. I'm modifying the 80/20 rule to Tango. 80% of the time, you dance 20% of everything you know. 20% of the time, you dance the other 80% you know. Below is a list of figures I consider danced 80% and 20% of the time: Danced 80% of the timeDanced 20% of the time Ochos (both directions) Volcadas Molinetes (both directions)Colgadas Walking Barridas Ocho CortadoEverything else Sacadas Boleos Based on the above split, it seems strange that a lot of classes concentrate on figures or combinations that are danced 20% of the time. It seems that a half hour after the class, enough of the material is forgotten that students can't dance what was taught, which explains why so many cameras are brought to class. If the above information is correct, why is the focus on what is danced 20% of the time instead of what is danced 80% of the time? Michael Going to New York tomorrow for an all night milonga to bring in the New Year. I hope Manhattan has been plowed I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] What's in a name?
Shakespeare answered that question in Romeo and Juliet with Juliet saying That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. There have been a numerous posts in the thread Tango Salon or Show? Other terms have been thrown into the discussion: milonguero, apilado, performance, social and I don't remember the rest. A few years ago I thought it was important to know the difference. Today, I'm not so sure. These distinctions remind me of ballroom and Latin competitions. Each dance has bronze, silver, and gold syllabi with each level having prescribed figures. The National Dance Council of America (NDCA) wrote a rule book for ballroom and Latin competitions that defines the levels. Is this the direction the list wants to go, looking for a supreme organization to define tango terms? The major divisions I see in tango are traditional music vs. alternative music; close embrace vs. open, and social vs. stage (performance.) To me, social dancing's objective is pleasing your partner; stage (performance) dancing is pleasing the audience or those not dancing. How many dancers ask their partner FIRST if they dance close embrace, nuevo, open, milonguero, apilado, salon, or some other style before going onto the floor? These discussions read like a group of mathematicians discussing Fermat's theorem. It's very exciting to mathematicians, but not to many others. I'm going back to reading a boring book for most people: Annuities for Dummies. If you're planning for retirement or have retired, this is a good book for financial planning. For most people on this list, it has no appeal. Michael Washington, DC Milonga tonight, followed by snow tomorrow; what a wonderful combination I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gringos in BsAs milongas
Pat: I agree with you completely about experiencing the culture of traditional milongas. As in Rome, do as the Romans. Why spend hours in a plane so you can eat McDonalds in BA? It also helps to know some Spanish. Expecting the Argentines to speak English just isn't reasonable. I'm sure that is one reason people go in groups so they don't have to worry about the language. You're missing out on part of the traditional experience if you don't use cabeceo. Tango in BA is completely different! At Lo del Celia, the space is small and navigation is more important than figures. I was surprised to find that the Argentines only use about 7 figures - - and they are content. Happy New Year to all. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Going to NY for New Year's Eve - Original Message - From: Pat Petronio petro...@adam.com.au Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 7:45 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Gringos in BsAs milongas I for one hope that the culture of traditional milongas lingers and regains its strength. I sit on a plane for 16 hours and spend thousands of dollars every year to experience their way of doing things, not to change them. Why would we want to export our barren Western culture to anyone? However I do agree with Brick that there's no one true way to do tango but simply in my opinion, the Porteno way and the rest. ...I prefer to use my hard-earned travel time and dollars to experience the rich culture of Buenos Aires milongas and the generous portenos who truly welcome respect the gringos who embrace the traditional milonga etiquette. Patricia Petronio Tango Salón Adelaide www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] teachers aren't so important
If you have prior dance experience, and dance well, you might be able to pick up tango from group lessons. I don't understand how listening to music teaches a man how to lead nor how a woman learns back ochos without a teacher. Women have taught that we have difficulty with certain figures. They don't necessarily know what caused the problem. The flip side is I don't have the same problem with every woman with the same figure. Bad teachers are optional. Good teachers are mandatory. The real question is what are the teachers teaching? If it's combinations and figures, their value is diminished. If they teach connection, listening to the partner and music, axis, frame, posture, and balance; their value is enhanced. My teacher taught what I needed, not what I wanted. There's a big difference between the two, and not always obvious. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Going to New York Sunday - Original Message - From: Sandhill Crane grus.canaden...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] teachers aren't so important Just a general comment here. Seems like we find ourselves talking about how important it is to find the right teacher, etc etc. I'd like to just remind everybody that teachers aren't really so terribly important. They shouldn't be at the center of anyone's tango universe. What's important is the music, and the dancers, or maybe the dancers, and the music. Teachers are optional. I've learned a lot from many good teachers, but I've learned different, more important things, from every woman I've ever danced with. My heartfelt gratitude to all of you. 8^) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip
Trini: I hear the cha cha rhythmof 2-3-4-1. I don't hear the 1-2, 1-2 of milonga unless you consider the 4 as traspie. But that's a lot of traspie in a milonga. The closest latin dance to milonga is meringue because it's 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com To: Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip Doesn't sound like either to me (based on the rhumba video I saw last night and having danced cha-cha). I'm hearing the milonga rhythm. What you are folks hearing? Trini --- On Sat, 11/20/10, Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net wrote: From: Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net To: Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net, Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010, 12:26 AM Sounds too fast for Rumba. Sounds more like Cha cha. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip Actually, this is not a tango rhythmically, but a rumba. :) Common mistake... Rumba rhythm can be played to hint tango, but it is still a rumba. - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com This came as a nice surprise. Some tango in the new Burlesque movie with Cher. Check it out. http://www.daemonsmovies.com/2010/11/13/burlesque-movie-clip-with-cher/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip
Sounds too fast for Rumba. Sounds more like Cha cha. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip Actually, this is not a tango rhythmically, but a rumba. :) Common mistake... Rumba rhythm can be played to hint tango, but it is still a rumba. - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip This came as a nice surprise. Some tango in the new Burlesque movie with Cher. Check it out. http://www.daemonsmovies.com/2010/11/13/burlesque-movie-clip-with-cher/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] connection
Sherrie: Based on the unpleasantness you described, here's the $64 question. Will women dance with the SAME men again? I'll bet the answer is yes because for some Bad tango is better than NO tango. When women realize their power in saying No, it's not fun by declining an invitation, maybe the leaders will get the message. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: sherp...@aol.com To: TANGO-L@mit.edu Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 2:30 PM Subject: [Tango-L] connection I like that thought, the man follows after he leads. If he is good that is what he doesmany men lead a step and then do not wait for the follow to execute it and finish it before he is leading her out of it into the next step...this often results in the follow feeling pushed...the result is that the dance stops being a dialogue and is only an exercise...I look at the faces of follows dancing with leads like this and they never have a pleasant, enjoying look...they always look somber and very focused on what is coming next. I always fear that I will be tripped up because before I have landed and changed my weight...I am being pushed into the next step...Sherrie ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Some thoughts on connection
Pat: Think of a lead as an invitation to step. A man holds a door open for a woman to step through. He doesn't shove her through the doorway. The woman knows to step through without the man even holding her hand. There's nothing wrong with the terms leading and following. It's how you define them that matters. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Pat Petronio petro...@adam.com.au To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some thoughts on connection Hi fellow tangueros, I find the following point made by Bob most thought-provoking of all: 4. To achieve connection in tango, the man the woman need to dance as equals. Although I fully subscribe to the traditional roles in this dance (the man proposes, etc.), the terminology of leading and following are unfortunately quite misleading. Though I'm at a loss to suggest something better. These commonly used terms clearly suggest dominance subservience, superiority and inferiority. In my opinion the dance has the potential to be at its best, with real connection, when people come together with a mindset that they are equal and will be respected as an equal, regardless of their respective experience. Each listens to the other and responds with respect to the other during the tanda which they share. Pat ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Moe Tango
Last month, while my normal partner, Sarah, whom many of you know, was at the Portland Festival, I had an old friend come to Houston to visit. Susana Gonzalez from Tampa and I lucked into a video at Dan Electro's Guitar Bar, dancing to some great blues by one of our favorite local bands; Moe Hansum. I've long advocated dancing to alternative music as a way of improving your musicality. I didn't grow up listening to tango, for me it was rock and blues. That's the music I grew up feeling and living. And learning how to interpret the blues, for me, translates into learning how to interpret the great tango orchestras of the 30's and 40's. Yes, I know that many say this is not Tango, since there is no tango music, but this is not the point, and its a helluva lot of fun. We often hear of using pauses, but it's difficult learning how to make this pause a long, slow, sensuous pivot, or something other than just a pause. Dancing like this has taught me so many things that enhance my Argentine Tango. Many, many thanks to the Moe Hansum band, especially Sandy the bass player and his wife Janet, of Sweet Spirit Productions, for posting this video. Michael is on guitar and vocals, John on guitar, and Steve on drums. Sarah and I have enjoyed dancing to their music on many an occasion. Also thanks to Bob, and Dan Electro's for providing Houston with a great venue and great live music. Susana is a beautiful partner, and a wonderful dancer. The weekend she was here, we had not seen each other for two years. Here we are, dancing to Water into Wine written by Michael Durbin, and performed by Moe Hansum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J6JVS7_g3g Looking forward to the St Louis Hot Winter Tango Festival next month; hope to see you there. Regards, Michael Figart II ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Ja! Ja!
I thought you look normal till people see you trying to TEACH tango. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier...@hotmail.com To: Tango-L List tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:19 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Ja! Ja! looks can be deceiving. Las apariencias engañan. That is the reason you look normal till people see you trying to learn tango. Sergio ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Male / Female - Defining the different roles.
Now I understand comments from Mario and Sean. Sometimes, the woman takes control of the dance. The best class I ever took was at the New York Tango Festival. Virginia Kelly taught a class on Interleading. (I didn't find anything on youtube but I found some google links if anybody is interested.) Here's an example. I lead the woman in a forward ocho to my right. She pivots on her right foot to her right. My right foot is next to her right foot. She steps over my right foot with her left foot. Before I can lead the next step, she grabs my right foot with her right foot. I'm at her mercy and don't have a clue what comes next. The woman has to lead the next step. In this case, I wasn't completely responsible for the physical aspect (leading and following) of the dance. Tango also has an emotional aspect of the dance though you're not going to have it with every partner. I remember dancing with a New Yorker - - in Florida, while I was on vacation a few years ago. She held me so closely, that if I was even closer, I'd be behind her. She whispered into my ear don't do figures so I stopped the fancy stuff. We moved slowly across the floor feeling every beat of DiSarli. (I'll never forget that tanda.) I read Mario's comment that the woman has absolutely no role. I've danced with women who set the cadence. Technically their adornments shouldn't impact my lead. but sometimes I move slower than usual to ensure I don't push them off their axis. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Jack Dylan jackdylan...@yahoo.com Sean, you may well be right but I'd like to hear more about your views. The man is the leader and must surely take responsibility for the dance. All the steps, pauses, cadence and tiempo are determined by the man. Yes, the lady can make great contributions with what happens between the steps and can, occasionally, if the man is sensitive, even influence the man's next lead, but it's still difficult to see how Mario's statement is not correct. Jack ** Mario wrote: One of the differences in roles that most impresses me is how the man is responsible for the dance itself. That is; he sets the cadence the movements the vital feel of the dance. * Sean wrote: This is the man's archetypal fantasy of tango. It is so important, that if you take it away from him, then what you have left might not even be tango. The problem then is, it has been repeated so many times that women are starting to believe it too. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Male / Female - Defining the different roles.
Mario: Yes, what you wrote rings a bell, AN ALARM BELL! This situation is a big reason why it should be the man who decides when and with whom to dance. You don't really mean the woman has NO say with whom and when she dances? We just had a long, useful thread on cabeceo. What you wrote goes completely against cabeceo in that it removes the woman's choice in dancing and reinforces the mentality that the woman just waits for a knight in shining armor who wears dance shoes. The music and the person with whom he dances ought to give him the conviction that he can pull it off (this song) with her help... Dancing is a partnership. The woman doesn't dance to assist the man in pulling it off. BOTH of them pull it off or it wasn't a good dance. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines From: Mario sopel...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] Male / Female - Defining the different roles. One of the differences in roles that most impresses me is how the man is responsible for the dance itself. That is; he sets the cadence the movements the vital feel of the dance. He is also responsible for what comes next, this in itself can be a BIG job and an intimidating one. This situation is a big reason why it should be the man who decides when and with whom to dance. The music and the person with whom he dances ought to give him the conviction that he can pull it off (this song) with her help (be a positive and elegant experience). The woman's part is equally as challenging, although not being as privy to it as I am the man's, I cannot but marvel at it when I see it well done. There is a combination of both the beauty of surrender and innovation. A truly marvelous dynamic that is replicated thruout life in many ways, but that is besides the point. If any of this rings a bell with you and you would like to add something, please do. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo the no
Technically, the woman never says no with cabeceo. If wants to dance, she will nod yes. If she doesn't want to dance, she looks away from the man as if she never saw the invitation. In fact, if she isn't interested in dancing with the man, she would never make eye contact in the first place. It's the verbal invitation that requires a verbal response. The bottom line is dancers aren't required to justify no. A woman can accept an invitation from another dancer even if she declined using cabeceo. The etiquette is not to accept an invitation after verbally saying no. If it's too late and she discovers during the tanda that it's not going to work, she can truthfully say I'm off balance or I'm having difficulty following. How the man reacts will determine if the tanda continues and if the woman will dance again with him. Daniel Trenner said a festival There's NO security in tango. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Patricia Katz pk...@trebnet.com Subject: [Tango-L] Cabaceo the no The question is: how does a follower convey to a leader that the no doesn't mean forever, but means that when this particular leader improves then she will accept his invitation, whether by cabaceo or a direct verbal invitation? A cabeceo doesn't address this problem. The no doesn't necessarily mean forever; the woman can give all sorts of excuses for not dancing with a particular leader, but how does she actually tell him that he needs to improve before she will dance with him? For many leaders the no means that she doesn't want to dance with him and he really isn't sure of the reason why, even though she gives some excuses. Most leaders don't feel that the no is because they are not at the level of this leader; this particular leader may think that she doesn't like him or that she's a snob or not part of her particular clique. Most followers here as I indicated in my previous post, will accept an invitation from leaders who may be far below her level. http://www.torontoargentinetango.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Playing the cabeceo card: A different perspective
The original message that started this interesting discussion mentioned that women should give the card to men. Sociologically, I don't think this will work. IMHO, American men are taught to be assertive (some are taught to be aggressive) and go get what you want. You want to date an attractive woman, go talk to her. My female ballroom dance teacher told me that American women (of my generation) are taught the complete opposite. Don't be aggressive nor assertive. You just wait and wait until the man asks you to dance. Showing interest in a man is poor character. I see the results of this training where I dance ballroom, Latin, and AT. Women don't make any overt sign they want to dance with a particular man. Expecting a woman to give a man the cabeceo card when she won't use cabeceo doesn't make any sense to me. It makes more sense when a woman tells a man That was wonderful. Ask me again some time, THAT'S the best time to play the card and for the man to say It takes two to tango. I'll be looking for you but I need you to look for me. Expecting the man to use cabeceo when the woman isn't paying attention isn't fair to the man. If the man is out of position to ask and the woman practices first come, first to dance; what chance does he have? NONE!! He's going to get upset that he lost out on tandas because he didn't ask available women because he was looking for somebody. By the time he realizes he isn't going to dance with the special women, the available women - - may not be available anymore. Michael Washington, DC Going to NY Wednesday to dance. It's wonderful to be retired! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Pedulum swing to fundamental
Sandhill Crane wonders when the pendulum will swing back from fancy steps to fundamentals. Martin Nussbaum wrote when most dancers have been dancing for seven or eight years or more. It takes that long for people to realize figures aren't everything, in my experience. IMHO, it's the men who want the fancy steps not the women. The women (at least those who dance close embrace) want to feel protected on the floor from poor navigation and want connection. Women don't realize how much power they have to force men to dance better. Instead of tolerating bad dancing with the same men over and over, they should stop dancing with them instead of complaining. My teacher told me that women would complain about men with poor attitudes and wanted him to do something about it at the milonga. His response was always Then don't dance with him. That wasn't the desired answer. Every woman has to answer the question: Is BAD tango better than NO tango? If the answer is BAD tango, then you'll getting exactly what you wanted. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Hopefully won't drown from the rain in Washington, DC ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] rotation of dance partners
I wrote on On Sat, 9/25/10, I'm lost. Why would advanced dancers and beginners be in the SAME workshop? From: Sandhill Crane To help the beginners move along more quickly, of course. It helps the more experienced dancers as well. You have to figure out how to deal with somebody who hasn't been to all the same workshops as yourself. I just don't see advanced dancers being so altruistic taking classes to help beginners. I've gender balanced at a tango festival so I go where I'm needed. I haven't seen any advanced dancers in the beginners classes. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] rotation of dance partners
I'm lost. Why would advanced dancers and beginners be in the SAME workshop? Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] rotation of dance partners The usual (here in Boston) way is - partners are rotating on teacher's notice... I strongly encourage folks to rotate, also I usually try to pair up more advanced people with beginners, so that at least one partner knows what they are doing. Sergey Roger Miller wrote: I need some comments, advice, etc, regarding the rotation of class participants ... and in particular weekend workshops... ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Basics: Walking
I regret I can't respond in rich text so I could use a different font and color to differentiate my response to Ming's comments. The hips are already back before the free foot moves. If the hip is pulled to much backward, the woman will fall forward. The hips should only go backward enough to bring the weight onto the balls of the feet. This doesn't cause the butt to stick out. Bending forward from the waist causes the butt to stick out, not pulling the hips back. My back is fine. Yes, when people walk outside milongas, they land on their heel first, but that's because their posture is straight up without their hips pulled back. But what happens after you step on your heel. You don't walk heel to toe without rolling to the outside edge. Why? The foot has an arch (except mine because I have flat feet). There's no support under the arch so the foot rolls outward and then comes back in. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Ming Mar ming_...@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 6:29 AM Subject: [Tango-L] Basics. Michael writes: Her foot moves first to establish support for her weight after she steps. Yes. First the foot, then the body. women have to bend their knees so the free foot will move backward as far as possible. Not quite. Move the hip back to extend the reach of the foot. I need the woman's sternum (indentation in the chest) to line up with my sternum. I've never seen anyone dance close embrace like this. For AT, the hips are back so that weight is shifted to the balls of the feet. With weight on the balls of the feet, the chest is brought forward to make contact with the partner. This sounds like Sherrie's stick-out-the-butt dancers. Does your back hurt? The feet are turned out Normal walking is on the outside edge of the foot. Most people don't walk this way. They land on their heels, not the side of their foot. And unless you have to repair the side of your shoe before the heel, you don't walk this way either. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Basics
Trini: This reminds me of what Daniel Trenner said at Tango Locura in Montreal where we met in 1999. (I hope I get it right.) People want to dance tango. But before you learn to dance tango, you first have to learn how to dance. But some people try to dance tango without going through dance. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com To: Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Basics Well, Huck, after the workshop I attended yesterday, Sunday, as a leader, the primary basic I had in mind was just for people to friggin' MOVE. It was an advanced workshop on ganchos and the followers all had the same problem of freezing as if they were deer in the headlights. Every single one of them! Dance. It's movement. Keeping the beat would be nice, too. But moving is critical. If you were to have asked me Saturday, I probably would have given more high-falutin' answers. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Mon, 9/20/10, Huck Kennedy tempeh...@gmail.com wrote: Keith Elshaw ke...@totango.net wrote: Folks make good points based on what they know, who they are, and how they feel. At this moment. You may say what your thoughts are on what the tango basics are, which is the topic at hand. What do you think are the tango basics that should be learned, Keith? I'm not picking up anything about that at all from what you wrote above. A whole bunch of us have given our ideas, what are yours? Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Basics.
Ming: These are the basics for all dances: AXIS: Weight is only on ONE foot. Many men don't understand axis. If they did, they would know the woman has a free foot that can move forward, backward, or sideway. There's no reason to push the woman backward. Her foot moves first to establish support for her weight after she steps. When a man PUSHES backward, the woman doesn't have a chance to get her foot out to support herself and she doesn't have her balance as she falls backward. To improve axis, women have to bend their knees so the free foot will move backward as far as possible. FRAME: The man is the frame, the woman is the painting is a famous dance quote. The man envelops the woman like a frame surrounds a painting. [This only applies to close embrace.] Frame is used to maintain the couple's alignment. When I dance close, I need the woman's sternum (indentation in the chest) to line up with my sternum. There is an imaginary pin (like the pin that holds the hinges on a door and wall together so that the door can swing open and close) that keeps our centers together for the dance. There is a symmetry to the embrace and the frame maintains the symmetry. When the couple is off the alignment, the woman will feel a stronger lead on one side of her body. The lead has to be straight, like the wheels on a shopping cart or the cart doesn't go straight. POSTURE: Think of a hula hoop. The hoop is placed at waist level and spins as the hips rotate in and out. For AT, the hips are back so that weight is shifted to the balls of the feet. With weight on the balls of the feet, the chest is brought forward to make contact with the partner. BALANCE: The feet are turned out, not inward (pigeon toed). This applies to walking forward and backward. Normal walking is on the outside edge of the foot. Dancing should be the same way. You also asked about the consequences of not having the basics. Below is a quote I found somewhere on the Simba Tango blog that summarizes: -When a man walks nicely, the woman dies in his embrace. -When a man walks badly, the woman wants to die.Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines From: Ming Mar ming_...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 10:26 AM Subject: [Tango-L] Basics. Loisa writes: Bring in traveling teachers who insistently teach solid, clean basics! What are these solid, clean basics? What are the consequences of not being able to do these basics? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace
Trini: Show some sensitivity. You don't know what's going on under the hat. The Rogaine might not have kicked in yet!! It only works on 85% of the men. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com To: tango-l tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:09 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace Your shampoo not working for you? Try Pantene. :o I would think wearing a hat would cause one to unconsciously tighten the muscles in the neck, which would inhibit the spiraling of the spine. It's a subtle but important thing. Trini --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com wrote: And most ladies (at least 20 cm shorter than me) didn't have a problem at all with my hat. Sergey ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Just say NO: (the fear of close embrace)
Lois: The easiest way to deal with the situation is to think of telemarketing phone calls. Somehow, my name landed up on an investors list. Companies called trying to get me to buy gold, precious metals, oil, gas and I forget what else. The moment I say I'm not an investor and I don't know how you got my name, the company immediately terminates the call. I suggest women practice That's not what my teacher said. That should end the conversation. If the man persists, when you become my teacher, I'll do it your way. It's polite without any emotion. I'm surprised there aren't workshops on this topic at festivals. I bet the workshop would fill up in no time with a waiting list. Of course, it would be for women only! Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Lois Donnay don...@donnay.net Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace This reminds me of the time I (as the milonga organizer) had to tell a man to stop teaching on the floor. He was respectful to me and said No problem - it stops right now That was nice. (Other times men have blamed me and never returned to the milonga.) Then he went right over to my boyfriend and said Who was that b who complained about me giving her some tips? Because I'm never going to dance with that b___ again! The point is - women would love to stand up for themselves and tell men to stop acting like such cads. How should they do that without having bad manners themselves?? Loisa Donnay ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] The fear of close embrace
Two years ago, I met a woman at a ballroom and Latin dance weekend. She danced very well but not Argentine Tango. We fell out of contact but recently reunited by a mutual friend. She started tango lessons and had reservations about dancing close embrace. That's when it dawned on me that there aren't classes nor workshops on what it means to dance close embrace. This is a class about feelings, not technique. For example, I've heard women say I'm not going to dance close embrace until I know the man better. (Is she expecting to date him first or send his fingerprints to the FBI for a background check?) Tango is a flirtatious dance. Some women think they send a sexual message, almost inviting a man to an encounter after the milonga if they dance close embrace. Men have their own reasons for not dancing close embrace. When I went to BA in April 2009, everybody danced close embrace at the milongas I attended. (Of course, I couldn't attend all 1600 milongas in two weeks.) Argentine women didn't have any problem dancing close embrace with me, sometimes feeling like I was in a straightjacket. Clearly, the Argentines aren't protective of their personal space whereas North Americans are very possessive of their space. My teacher said Before we can embrace others, we have to be able to embrace ourselves. It took a while to understand and feel the importance of the statement before I became comfortable dancing close embrace. I feel a lot of people have fears about dancing close embrace. Unless they have a great teacher or tango support group to discuss these feelings, dancers carry these fears to the milongas. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Washington, DC ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] A BA subway station for a musician
I found a message on Milena Plebs's web page that the subway station Malabia (B line) is having its name modified by adding Pugliese. The station is two stops from Pugliese's grave at Chacarita. Now, the tango La Yumba will remind me of something. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] social ethical behavior
Martin: The reason cabeceo doesn't work well in New York (and other places) is milongas are close to pitch black and women aren't trained to use cabeceo. Even if cabeceo isn't used, it would still be wonderful for the milonga to be illuminated so you could see who is there! Somebody commented at a recent tango festival that women wore great evening gowns, which nobody could see because the lighting was minimal. I've been told the reason for minimal lighting is ambience. When you have a great partner, you create your own ambience. I didn't go to all 1600 milongas when I visited Buenos Aires in April 2009 but at the ones I attended, the lights were up and cabeceo was used. It wasn't as bright as the sun but at least you could see. You're losing out on a lot of dances because you're using cabeceo when nobody else is following the code. I'm not sure there are codes at milongas in North America. Michael Ditkoff I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Nussbaum, Martin mnuss...@law.nyc.gov Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 12:45 PM Subject: [Tango-L] social ethical behavior Ah Niki, come to nyc, where the gender imbalance is in your favor! Entonces, most leaders here are very aggressive in trying to get tandas. Not only will they use verbal invites, but some, pretending to be gallant but really coming off as boorish, will even interrupt your conversations, extending their hand between a man and the woman he is speaking with to get her onto the dance floor. I agree with Sergio re the value of the codigos and I refuse to give up the cabeceo, even if it means I get less dances in NYC. -Martin Nussbaum ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L/ Social-ethical behaviors and protocols.
Nicetune: From a sociological perspective, which gender mostly said you were angry, jealous, etc. and which gender mostly said she was tactless? Buenos Aires milongas has codigos (codes). I haven't seen any rules at North American milongas, except first come, first served. Women tend dance with the first man who asks, even if they want to dance with somebody else, so as not to sit out the tanda. Cabeceo is impossible because the lighting is so dark. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Nicetune Piazzola nicet...@live.com Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L/ Social-ethical behaviors and protocols. “Are there any traditional unspoken rules at Buenos Aires’ Milongas [or elsewhere] regarding how accompanied women …” (Proper conduct ignored. Cultural differences?) Although all this may be irrelevant to the tread, what is interesting to point out, is the fact that I was judged to be an angry, judgmental, jealous, and controlling man by few of her close friends who, considered that she had done nothing wrong. On the other hand, some other dancers, shared my opinion; according to them she had exhibited tactless, inconsiderate, and even improper behavior, placing me in a humiliating position; all of this aggravated by her subsequent inability to have a rational discussion, adopting a defensive, haughty, and resentful stance. Nicetune ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] The Basic Elements of Tango
I think the real problem is some dancers feel their vocabulary is incomplete if the latest fad isn't included. Some people emphasize figures while others emphasize connection. When the connection is so good your heart is palpitating, why would somebody want to break the connection for a colgada? Some dancers concentrate on themselves while others concentrate on their partner. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Keith Elshaw ke...@totango.net Subject: [Tango-L] The Basic Elements of Tango Just got this today in the email from a local (Argentine by origin) teacher: A class to learn, review and polish the fundamental elements in Tango: ochos, paradas, boleos, barridas, ganchos, amagues, giros, sacadas, etc. To me, this is all still teacher talk to make tango complicated so people think they have to endure level 1 though 89, etc. Tango is basically a walking dance, no? There are so many ways to walk to different kinds of music. THAT is surely the fundamental element of tango. The rest of it is basically stuff to ensure one can make money teaching people who haven't a clue what it really is? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Recognizing Tango Music
This is exactly my complaint with the Argentine Tango danced on Dancing with the Stars. It's been orchestrated to match the slow-slow-quick-quick-slow of ballroom (international) style. I remember two seasons ago Derek and Kim danced Taquito Militar but it's not the version you would hear at milongas. It was difficult to recognize. AT doesn't follow a specific cadence which is why DiSarli, Pugliese, Tanturi, Fresedo orchestras all sound differently, but they are play tangos. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com To: Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Recognizing Tango Music --- On Thu, 6/10/10, Myk Dowling poli...@gmail.com wrote: (PATangoS) wrote: But, Myk, would it be wrong, though, for a tango to have a specific rhythm? It could be very boring, but couldn't it still be defined as a tango? It strikes me that older pieces would have had a repetitive structure. It's not that it would be wrong, it's that it wouldn't be tango. If you put a tango melody to a cha cha rhythm, you get a cha cha. If you put it to a rock n' roll rhythm, you get a rock n' roll tune. If you put it to a samba rhythm, you get a samba. Dance music is defined by its rhythm. Except for tango, which is (fairly poorly) defined by its lack of one. Let me try to clarify. If a tango melody played straight through to a specific rhythm of 1-3-1-3-4, for example, just to pull some numbers out of the air, wouldn't it still be a tango, even if the rhythm is repetitive? Or are you saying that it would have to have some other variation? And if so, why do you say that. Trini ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] denver roommate
Looking for a spot at the hotel for Saturday and Sunday nights..does anybody already have a room and want to split the bill? Thanks, Michael Figart II, Houston Tx, michaelfig...@yahoo.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] link for Dancing(?) with the Stars(?)
NONE of the announced Argentine Tangos from any season are really Argentine tango. The music is terrible and it's danced in International style, which is the style for competitive ballroom events. The professional dancers are ballroom dancers and switching to AT would just be too much for them to change. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Miami Tango Fantasy quickly approaching. - Original Message - From: Charles Roques c.roq...@mchsi.com Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:31 PM Subject: [Tango-L] link for Dancing(?) with the Stars(?) I didn't post a link for the Dancing with the Stars disaster because I just happened to see it on the AOL site news postings this morning and thought it might actually be Arg. Tango but it is just bad Ballroom tango. It wasn't there when I went back later. You might try this link below or google it. You have been warned. :-) http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/2010/05/04/2010-05-04_dancing_with_the_stars_evan_lysacek_and_anna_trebunskaya_earn_first_perfect_scor.html ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why do I dance tango if I do not like tango music.
I wonder if this topic is related to alternative milogas, where you don't hear the good stuff. Alternative milongas seem to specialize in ballroom and Latin music, e.g. Foxtrot, American Tango, Merengue, etc. The key behind ballroom and Latin is the cadence never changes. Foxtrot is slow-slow-quick-quick (unless you dance a pattern that's slow-quick-quick.) Since the cadence doesn't change, you don't have to pay attention as much as to Argentine Tango. In Argentine tango, there's no repetitive cadence as in foxtrot or in Latin, e.g. cha cha is slow-slow-quick-quick-slow. Sometimes you can pause in AT. The music doesn't stop in ballroom for poses. You have to find the right time for a pose. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Miami Tango Fantasy starting to show on the radar screen ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors: What else can we see?
Vince: Thanks for the videos. We can learn a lot, not just how fast the LOD moves. Notice that everybody (unless I missed a couple) is in close embrace. The same figures I described in an earlier post are repeated. You don't see Volcadas, Colgadas, Linear Boleos nor other space consuming figures. The emphasis is on movement and connection. You don't see couples staying in place for paradas and other figures that can cause a traffic jam. This is a good illustration of the expression You just don't dance with your partner; but everybody else on the floor. Michael Finally dug out from 35 (no typo) inches of snow Washington, DC - Original Message - From: Vince Bagusauskas vy...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors A search on Youtube for crowded milonga and restricted then to BsAs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVV83rj9aOc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjP6wagMIG0 Vince In Melbourne ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors
I'm not going anywhere because my car is locked in from compounded snow and ice and 16+ inches of snow is on the way. The federal government in Washington has been closed for two days @ $100 Million cost to the taxpayers, who I thank for two days off. Based on the milongas I attended in BA, the main difference is the Argentines dance in close embrace but there is a lot of open embrace in the States, which takes up much more room, leaving less dance space. Also, Argentines only know five figures, and they are content. They don't use figures that stop the line of dance. Based on reading the class schedules at festivals, the emphasis is on figures. Rarely, do I see a class dealing with navigation or what to do in a traffic jam. I remember Robin Thomas taught a class on what to do in a traffic jam. I thought the figure looked familiar. Then I realized it was a figure from AMERICAN ballroom. But it was still good to know. If you want to encourage maintaining a flow of traffic, that's what you teach at festivals. Don't teach figures that STOP the line. I remember Alan Forde saying at the Atlanta Festival You're not just dancing with your partner. You're dancing with everybody else on the floor. Until dancers understand that, expect traffic jams on the floor. Michael Washington, D.C. Winter Wonderland because we wonder when it's going to end I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 9:38 AM Subject: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors Seeing that I'll be getting hit with another big snowfall on top of 20 inches here, I thought'd I'd spend my snowed in time on Tango-L. Here's my question. I've heard from a couple of people that there's a big difference in the speed at which people travel on the dance floors in BsAs versus the crowded festivals in the U.S. Basically, in the U.S., the LOD slows to a crawl. In BsAs, however, the LOD continues at its usual pace, even if it's heavily packed. This brings up a question of how do we change things in the U.S. to encourage a moving floor, even if it's crowded? Trini de Snowburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors
Barbra: It's really 6. I forgot one. 1) Walking 2) Ocho Cortado 3) Molinete to the man's left 4) Molinete to the man's right 5) Back ocho 6) Boleo The Argentines feel they don't have anything to prove and don't need more elaborate figures north americans feel they need to be successful on the floor. Federal government in Washington closed tomorrow. Thanks a million, taxpayers. That's really another $100 million, $300 million for the three days. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Barbra buffmilongu...@aol.com To: Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors okay, I'll bite - which 5 figures.??? -Original Message- From: Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors Based on the milongas I attended in BA, the main difference is the Argentines dance in close embrace but there is a lot of open embrace in the States, which takes up much more room, leaving less dance space. Also, Argentines only know five figures, and they are content. They don't use figures that stop the line of dance. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Live Music at New York City milongas
Go to www.newyorktango.com Michael On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Tanguero tangu...@tanguero.com wrote: Does anyone know where there will be live music at New York City milongas (through March.and beyond)? Do you know who will play? At approximately what time will the musicians play? Thank you so much for any info you could provide. Lorena www.Tanguero.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l -- I'd danced Argentine Tango- - with the Argentines ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] BsAs Floorcraft - How is it really?
Trini: I didn't see any signalling while I was in BA. I saw men running stop signs, red lights and not using directional signals to indicate they were changing lanes. When the music started, it took one minute (out of a 3 minute musical selection) before EVERYBODY was moving on the floor. Some people liked to talk more than dance. But at a BA traditional milonga, men and women are segregated so the only time at the milonga you can talk is when the music starts, which of course, jams up the traffic line. Navigation skills are more important than any figure you can learn. Dancing at the Denver Tango Festival was excellent practice. Michael Washington, DC On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi all, Daniel (Trenner) describes navigating the floor as being like a chess game, with the men trying to find the space on the floor. However, key to this is the men watching and signaling each other. A man might signal to another go ahead and take that space. To me, this makes sense. It also give more meaning to the phrase that you're dancing with everyone else in the room. Comments? Perhaps those currently in BsAs can give this aspect of navigation a try at the milongas? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] self-proclaimed teachers rant
When you're a beginner, you don't recognize good dancing. You're mesmerized by fancy and glitzy figures and think I want to be able to do that so you're drawn to that teacher. Michael Washington, DC I'd danced Argentine Tango- - with the Argentines On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 10:51 AM, hbboog...@aol.com wrote: Went to a milonga last night and not a nuevo in sight. But guess what? Reeking havoc on the floor were the local self-proclaimed teachers. Demonstrating how expert they were with endless boleos, kicking, spinning and generally horrible floor craft. The question is why do men who promote themselves to teachers act in this manner? How can you teach tango without floor craft?-- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Forward Step By Lady
Carlos Gavito said I lead, but I follow. The woman moves first backwards and he follows stepping forward. The opposite is true when the man moves backward. He leads himself backwards and the woman follows him going forward. Other posters spoke about brutally changing weight or waiting a long time for the woman to step forward, which I never wrote. I'm talking about a hundredths of a second from the time the man steps backward and his torso begins to move backward, leading the woman to step forward. To phrase it differently, if the couple is on parallel (same) feet, the man has to step backward with his left foot and create space for the woman to come forward with her right. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Jack Dylan jackdylan...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 3:06 AM Michael, Sorry, I rushed my question and didn't phrase it very well. I mean that when the man steps back and the lady forward, they would step together. So, at the same time as stepping back, the man would lead the lady to step forward and, for this he would use his torso. I don't think the man would step back alone.So the man's back step and torso lead would be at the same time. Whereas, going forward, the man's torso lead would be first, followed by his step. Jack From: Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net It's the same rule for the man and the woman because it makes no difference who's going backward. If the man was to move his torso and step back at the same time, he wouldn't have a foot to support himself and he would pull the woman into himself without having support. Not a good idea. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
