Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Roger Patrick wrote: > Hi, > > > If someone acts inappropriately on or off the dance-floor according > to the opinion of a dancer, she/he has reason to choose not to dance > with the person anymore. No-one claims everyone should have a "right" > to get dances, and people shall be free to decide with whom they want > to dance with. -- If someone acts inappropriately on or off the dance-floor according to the opinion of a dancer, she/he has reason to choose not to dance with the person anymore. No-one claims everyone should have a "right" to get dances, and people shall be free to decide with whom they want to dance with. - this bit struck a chord. A female friend retold me a story recently: she was talking to a man who was apparently showing a fair bit of arrogance about his ability to get dances. her response to him was 'as a female, it's best not to put a man offside' which brings home the point of supply and demand, and the gender imbalance in tango. Women will put up with a fair bit in order to get a dance, whether that be arrogance or mediocrity or sleaze...(and this is something that I have witnessed both in Australia and in BsAs) -- Yours in dance dementia, Niki ( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com ) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors
On 14/08/2010 03:32, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > My observation is that a couple who dances a lot with each other (more than 3 > tandas) are either: > > 1) interested in each other, > 2) so bad that no one else wants to dance with them, or > 3) so much better than everyone else that they're not really interested in > dancing with others. 4) uncomfortable in asking anyone else because they both don't know too many people (especially at milongas that have staunchly established cliques) or aren't sure about the local codigos about who is "invitable" by whom. Happens to me from time to time, actually. It's a lot worse where the cabeceo is not established (as the cabeceo is quite good at making you discover the local codes without too much embarassment). By the way, I met my wife at a tango event, but my most common dance partner is someone else (who has another relationship). So for explanation #1 you shouldn't be reading "interested" too narrowly. When I stumble across a very good dancer I don't know, with which I have a really good connection, then I'm certainly curious but not necessarily interested in breaking up my marriage and making my two kids very unhappy. There's also a matter of scale. Say you arrive at a milonga with 80 people out of whom 50 are made out of non-communicating clusters (i.e. cliques) who will only dance between themselves. That leaves at best 15 followers. Suppose there are 7 you really don't want to dance with (a lot), that leaves 8. To avoid dancing more than three tandas over an evening with any one follower requires a very good memory (or a note book), and a willingness to avoid dancing with the few (say three or four) followers with which you have a really *good* connection in honour of the codigo (and at the expense of *really* dancing tango -- I know, I'm drifting towards explanation #3 though I'll make no claims about how good *I* am). If there are 300 people around and no cliques the story is very, very different. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
[Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols TANGO AND CONSCIOUS EVOLUTION by Artem Maloratsky - Copyright ©2007 (with special permission from the author) http://www.tangoprinciples.org/ SUMMARY The art of tango dancing at its best is a means for conscious evolution of the practitioner. In this section I explain what I mean by conscious evolution and how tango dancing can function as a means for it. - Consciousness can be seen as the patterning of matter and energy. - Evolution by natural selection no longer functions among humans. - There is evidence for the existence of other mechanisms of evolution. - Conscious choice more than ever before determines the direction of development of our species. - There is therefore a need to consciously chart our own development as individuals and as a species. - Each human being is capable of knowing the direction of conscious evolution in the given circumstances. The main "sensor" of the direction is one's "heart", one's experience of bliss. - There is research showing the relation between happiness and the so-called "flow" states. - In order to engage meaningfully and consistently in a "flow" activity, it must be sensibly instrumental for one's conscious evolution. - An evolutionary activity or interaction is the one practiced specifically for the purpose of blissful experiences and the evolution of one's consciousness. - In order to be functional, an evolutionary activity must have certain essential features. - Some cultures of the past intuitively recognized good evolutionary activities and their cultural significance. - There are many aspects of tango dancing which make it a good evolutionary activity. - Tango has been therapeutic and has helped the development of my consciousness in a variety of ways. - In order for the evolutionary potential of tango to manifest, the right approach is necessary. "True happiness is the happiness of growth." Pierre Teillard de Chardin ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols Why tango? by Artem Maloratsky - Copyright ©2007 (with special permission of the author) Most tango "addicts" do not ask themselves such a question - they know they love it, and that is why they do it. I myself have had an urge to keep dancing tango for close to 13 years now, and it is not getting any weaker. But, such irrational sentiments aside, I am also interested in understanding the underlying qualities which make this dance so appealing. In my experience, tango has been a positive force in the following three ways: as pleasurable recreation and a comfortable social scene; as a therapeutic activity; as a culturally significant art form, an instrument of conscious evolution of a human being. Taken in the lightest manner, tango, as any other social dance, is a great alternative to leisure activities which center around food and drink. I personally had always been somewhat socially uncomfortable, and did not enjoy spending long hours in bars, restaurants or cocktail parties. The tango scene instantly felt to me like a more natural way to come together with others. It was easier for me to dance with people for hours than to talk with them for 5 minutes. But even talking became easier, for tango also provided an inexhaustible topic of meaningful conversation. To me it also seems more natural to meet people in an environment that involved dancing - one often expresses oneself more eloquently and more inevitably through a dance than through hours of small talk. Before I even began to consciously realize the cultural significance of tango, I felt like I belonged in the milonga, though I was born and grew up in Russia. It made much more sense to me to come together with people on the basis of music and dance which we loved, rather than on the basis of more circumstantial workplace or school acquaintances. Another unique feature of tango is that it is a sensual, yet non-sexual interaction with the opposite sex. It allows one to viscerally experience the other person's psycho-physical being without getting too personal. It is a great way for people to express themselves as men and women without entering into a sexual relationship. Another reason to dance tango is that it can function as a therapeutic activity on many levels. First of all, it is a light aerobic activity, relatively safe and accessible to any age. As such, it can already make one feel better, and it is more fun than many other workouts. Tango is also automatically therapeutic due to the physical connection with another human being that it involves. In modern culture, more and more people feel isolated and lack physical contact, especially if they are single. Being hugged by another person for the duration of a dance can make a big difference in one's mood. But a much greater therapeutic power of tango lies in how metaphorical it is of all our relationships, and especially of the ways we relate to the opposite sex. Tango has been justly called a three-minute love affair. Because the tango embrace is so close and because the dance is improvised, one inevitably expresses one's character and relationship patterns through one's dancing. Such things are not always easy to see from the outside, but they are perceived very clearly by one's partner. With a little effort, one can also begin to notice one's own habitual attitudes and how they affect the experience of both partners. Just becoming more aware of that can teach one a lot about one's relationship patterns in general, and can thus be greatly therapeutic (it has been for me). But even more can be gained by learning how to transform one's patterns creatively. Tango is a model relationship in which one can experiment and learn more safely, for failing to dance a good tango is not as terrifying as failing in a real-life love affair. Another therapeutic value of tango is that it is inevitably a creative act - every dance is a spontaneous, unpremeditated interaction. As such, it develops our creative potential, puts us more in touch with our instincts and intuition. In today's world, where many people do not find enough room for creativity in the workplace, having a more creative hobby, where one expresses oneself more freely, can make a big difference in one's well-being. The greatest reason to dance tango, in my opinion, is that it can be practiced as an evolutionary art form - the concept that I discuss in detail in the Tango and Conscious Evolution section. Tango is an interaction that involves our senses, our motor skills, our instincts, our feelings, our intuition - our whole psycho-physical totality - to such a degree that it can be used as a tool for a general development of a human being (especially if "being" is used as a verb). Tango is a creative interaction which can teach us deeper princi
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
Trini wrote: >I love it when my husband chases the opposite sex at milongas - I met a woman once who said shrugged and accepts the fact her husband likes to flirt at milongas. He is a popular guy and she had to try hard as a dancer to snatch him. Vince In Melbourne ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols Dear A. T fellows, I want to share this link with the group. I feel compelled to mention this essay (many of you may already know about it) which I value as a significant contribution not only to bringing light to the issue under discussion but also to many other aspects of Argentine Tango in general. I identify myself with most of the conclusions presented on: Tango Principles by Artem Maloratsky. http://www.tangoprinciples.org/ Please, particularly read: Introduction/Why Tango? and Tango And Conscious Evolution Respectfully, Ruben Malan ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols Dear Charles, you recently wrote: "Like other aspects of tango "interpreted" by outsiders, such as the protocol being discussed in this same thread, its true meaning is being lost." Would you be kind to further elaborate on this deep but controversial subject matter? I anxious to hear your respectable, experienced, and legitimate Argentine prospective. Thank you Ruben (from Montevideo in Tallahassee) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
I think, Ruben, that both you and Sergio may just be unaware of your own natural charms, given your backgrounds, and may take for granted something that most men must work on. Alas for the North American male who has to debate as to whether he should open the door for a woman. South American men, I've noticed, don't seem to have that issue at all. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
Trini wrote: "I love it when my husband chases the opposite sex at milongas - especially when the only one he is chasing is me. And we both have gotten hit on. It's an easy thing to say no. The guys who are really good at flirting do so in such a way that they "open the door" to the possibility by making her feel special. (Take note, single guys). Piropos? Cafe milonguero or cafe amigos? El duende? The tango embrace as a hug? This list has had multiple threads on these issues. I'm not suggesting that chasing the opposite sex is the main reason for going to a milonga. But it's there and flavors the dance. Without it, you might as well switch to ballet or some other performance-oriented dance." Nice comment Trini! Hilarious too.I agree and please forgive me for my wrong assumption.I'm not an indifferent man Trini, and when a lady calls my attention for one reason or another, I cannot hide it. Believe me, I do not hesitate to say a nice compliment. I have a nice repertoire of "piropos" and I use them with caution. Too late to switch...I'm addicted now. Besides, I love "the abrazo," a natural human need for unity, uncontaminated contact, and affection.As a Hispanic guy, I'm use to it and I need my dairy doses of hugs and affection. It is healthy.May you reserve a tanda for me for the next milonga?I'll ask permission to your kind husband first. :-)Ruben ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
--- On Sun, 8/15/10, Ruben Malan wrote: > > 5) With an increasing percentage we are also observing the > attendance of married couples ... I love it when my husband chases the opposite sex at milongas - especially when the only one he is chasing is me. And we both have gotten hit on. It's an easy thing to say no. The guys who are really good at flirting do so in such a way that they "open the door" to the possibility by making her feel special. (Take note, single guys). Piropos? Cafe milonguero or cafe amigos? El duende? The tango embrace as a hug? This list has had multiple threads on these issues. I'm not suggesting that chasing the opposite sex is the main reason for going to a milonga. But it's there and flavors the dance. Without it, you might as well switch to ballet or some other performance-oriented dance. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango-L/Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
[Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols Regarding John's statement: "Ruben Malan disapproves of the pursuit of the opposite sex at milongas because teenagers might be present." John Ward Bristol, UK Not necessarily true John. Please, read my post again. It is acceptable if done with decency, prudence, and respect, observing the spoken and unspoken codes. It is also natural and inevitable. I plainly and respectfully disagree with Trini's assertions: "Oh, come on. Chasing the opposite sex is what gave popularity to the tango in the first place. I seriously doubt that the first milongueros were thinking about "art" as they were practicing with each other." Some rationale already presented. Please consider that there are different kind of milongas. More specifically, I was talking about our local regular ones. I comfortably endorse the following Sergio's wise comments: "If some romance develops, even better. But the main purpose of going there is to dance, just for the pleasure of dancing. It is not the favorite place to pick up women. There are many other places and occasions." "I think that it is fair to say that today, most people go to the milongas to dance. There is limited socialization, you arrive, you greet people that you know and you sit. " Frankly, I hope I will find a "soul-mate" for myself at a milonga (I doubt it), but I'm not going to them with that purpose in mind. It will negatively affect my concentration, my technique, and my performing as a dancer. Moreover, intuitive woman (most of them) easily detects when a gentleman is needy looking for also a"chase." Besides, I must be faithful with my own unspoken milongas codes fortunately adopted by many in these days. Independently of women's appearances, attractiveness, marital status, age, height, size, and skills, I personally observe the following rules relevant to this friendly discussion: 1)Dance with good dancers to learn and improve. They often give me a good and sincere advise. 2)Dance with those ladies who are new to make them feel well and welcome. 3)Dance with followers who are not often invited, to be fair and encourage them to comeback. 4)Dance with ladies that are ignored because they are beginners. Perhaps I may have a chance to contribute to their further development. 5)Dance with your friends, and your friend's partners for courtesy at least once. Regarding Anton's statement: "Why the need to sanitize?" I'm nobody to sanitize or heal anybody or any milonga. I'm busy working in my own improvement and practicing tango. I can make a humble contribution however, by sharing my views. Usually, we sanitize to prevent contamination and sickness. I believe in preventive medicine. In the light of Nicetune's unhealthy and disturbing experience, perhaps "purify" rather than "disinfect" will be better actions or only wishful verbs. Even better, what about EDUCATE rather than heal? Ruben Malan ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
Hi, > Independently of what was in the mind of the first milongueros, I believe > with confidence that to consider the premise: "chasing the opposite sex is > the main objective in the mind of contemporary milongas attendees either > here or elsewhere" as valid is 100%questionable and even unacceptable. The > first set of realistic concerns that pop up right away in my mind are: I have the impression that we are setting up a straw-men here. Neither Trini nor else claimed that chasing the opposite sex is the main objective for most of the attendees of the milongas most of the time. However, that it is not the main objective or that it is not what's in people's mind all the time does not make it an unacceptable, immoral, or condemnable motivation to dance tango. This is an unjustified jump to a conclusion, and it comes through as a personal moral viewpoint which the author wants to force on others, disguised as an argument. > 1) It twist or prostitute (thinking in its origins) the whole new concept > and "reason d'être" of modern Argentine Tango dancing. Petitio principii. Also, maybe I was just missing out something, but has there been a proclamation for the "raison d'etre" of tango somewhere? Where do I sign? > 2) It is dangerous, an invitation to trouble. I don't see too much of an argument here. > 3) It may jeopardize the preservation of good relationships and > communication among dancers. If someone acts inappropriately on or off the dance-floor according to the opinion of a dancer, she/he has reason to choose not to dance with the person anymore. No-one claims everyone should have a "right" to get dances, and people shall be free to decide with whom they want to dance with. The discussion is not about bastards who force themselves upon ladies and demand dances aggressively, but about polite dancers who might also have motivations relating to sexual appetites in mind. Confusing the two would again be a basis for a straw-men. > 4) It is a no-no particularly in many contemporary milongas where more and > more often we witness the presence and participation of teens, minors, and > even children. > "Think of the children!" Ouch. > 5) With an increasing percentage we are also observing the attendance of > married couples and also married dancers whose spouses are not attending > simply because they do not like tango, they are absent, or they cannot > dance. ...and ? > 6) Local milongas and practilongas are gradually becoming periodic family > and friendly oriented gatherings where a group of well known community > dancers are socializing, sharing ideas, practicing new concepts, and > learning from each other, in a cozy environment, supposedly free of concerns > that some needy (single or not) individual may put her o his eyes (and > hands) in your significant one, looking for something "else" than dancing. Think of the children 2, but now the adult version! > 7) The demands of A.T. are such that an authentic and committed dancer > cannot get distracted with this "chases" and all the subsequent maneuvers if > he wants to be good. I'm not sure whether I follow. Cannot or should not? And why? > 8) Those that do not adequate prioritize their goals and ignore décor > exhibiting improper conduct may be tolerated at milongas, but they are > easily detected and often avoided putting themselves on the spot "de > gratis." Again, you are assuming the point you want to make by gesturing at an supposedly uncontroversial notion of "adequate priority". Mind you again that we are not talking about aggressive behavior but about differing motivations. And it should be up to each individual attendees to decide what to do with the information he/she gathers about the motivations of the other, and not up to some though-police attempting to enforce a conservative moral viewpoint. > > The second statement: "People take up all sorts of hobbies hoping to meet > people and find love is just a personal opinion and a gross generalization. > My own hobby as an example may be enough. Just > let me discard for a moment the love for music, passion for art, enjoyment, > neuro-motor improvement, musicianship, refinement, and a mean of > self-expression, among many other "good reasons" in my list of genuine > motivations. Since music is my hobby and my profession it will be reasonable > to say that I also play, practice, and teach for money, recognition, or > both. Indeed, I did it during practically all my long life and 27 years of > marriage with absolutely no need to meet people or find love. More power to you! Just please don't generalize to what other people may desire and how other people may want to prioritize. > However, in our society it seems that almost everything is accepted, > including "making a catch" at A.T. dances, with the following convenient > excuses in mind: --It is not illegal! --What is bad for one is good for > others! --I'm clear with my conscious! --What are you talking ab
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
Ruben Malan disapproves of the pursuit of the opposite sex at milongas because teenagers might be present. Why does he think these teenagers go there at all? For exactly the same reason I went to the Southend Kursaal every Saturday night 50 years ago when I was a teenager: to meet members of the opposite sex. True, not everybody in a ballroom is looking for love. Some have already found it. But all couple dancing is a courtship ritual, whether you have been with your partner 30 seconds or 30 years. John Ward Bristol, UK ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols Independently of what was in the mind of the first milongueros, I believe with confidence that to consider the premise: "chasing the opposite sex is the main objective in the mind of contemporary milongas attendees either here or elsewhere" as valid is 100%questionable and even unacceptable. The first set of realistic concerns that pop up right away in my mind are: 1) It twist or prostitute (thinking in its origins) the whole new concept and "reason d'être" of modern Argentine Tango dancing. 2) It is dangerous, an invitation to trouble. 3) It may jeopardize the preservation of good relationships and communication among dancers. 4) It is a no-no particularly in many contemporary milongas where more and more often we witness the presence and participation of teens, minors, and even children. 5) With an increasing percentage we are also observing the attendance of married couples and also married dancers whose spouses are not attending simply because they do not like tango, they are absent, or they cannot dance. 6) Local milongas and practilongas are gradually becoming periodic family and friendly oriented gatherings where a group of well known community dancers are socializing, sharing ideas, practicing new concepts, and learning from each other, in a cozy environment, supposedly free of concerns that some needy (single or not) individual may put her o his eyes (and hands) in your significant one, looking for something "else" than dancing. 7) The demands of A.T. are such that an authentic and committed dancer cannot get distracted with this "chases" and all the subsequent maneuvers if he wants to be good. 8) Those that do not adequate prioritize their goals and ignore décor exhibiting improper conduct may be tolerated at milongas, but they are easily detected and often avoided putting themselves on the spot "de gratis." The second statement: "People take up all sorts of hobbies hoping to meet people and find love is just a personal opinion and a gross generalization. My own hobby as an example may be enough. Just let me discard for a moment the love for music, passion for art, enjoyment, neuro-motor improvement, musicianship, refinement, and a mean of self-expression, among many other "good reasons" in my list of genuine motivations. Since music is my hobby and my profession it will be reasonable to say that I also play, practice, and teach for money, recognition, or both. Indeed, I did it during practically all my long life and 27 years of marriage with absolutely no need to meet people or find love. However, in our society it seems that almost everything is accepted, including "making a catch" at A.T. dances, with the following convenient excuses in mind: --It is not illegal! --What is bad for one is good for others! --I'm clear with my conscious! --What are you talking about? --It is a free country! --Go for it! --If not now when? --Why not? --It is nothing wrong! And so on. Ruben ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango-L/Social-ethical behaviors
Nice tune wrote: “Recently, I went to a milonga with my ex-girlfriend, (an experienced milonguera) in a city in mid Florida. We both knew most of the other dancers and they were familiar with us and our close relationship except for few (3 or 4) new guests. That night, I got to dance only one tanda with her as she danced again and again with a newcomer (unknown to me), enthusiastically talking while waiting during the cortinas. She showed an evident flirtatious attitude (accommodating her hair with both arms up, and other well known seductive gestures and postures). She walked several times to where the gentleman was sitting and invited him to dance. In addition, he danced almost exclusively with her. I was astonished by her behavior and began steaming up. She got offended later on after the dance, when I tried to discuss her behavior at the milonga. She categorically denied my observations, refused to discuss the issue arguing that she did not know what I was talking about and that "I'm an insecure man." Then, she sabotaged our relationship by being angry, refusing any reasonable dialog, arguing that she had to “lick her wounds.” We broke up two days later. Although all this may be irrelevant to the tread, what is interesting to point out , is the fact that I was judged to be an angry, judgmental, jealous, and controlling man by few of her close friends who, considered that she had done nothing wrong. On the other hand, some other dancers, shared my opinion; according to them she had exhibited tactless, inconsiderate, and even improper behavior, placing me in a humiliating position; all of this aggravated by her subsequent inability to have a rational discussion, adopting a defensive, haughty, and deeply resentful stance.” Nicetune, just realize that you may have be a typo or omission because if she was your ex you wouldn’t “broke up with her two days later”. Your story will be superfluous. If she indeed was your girl friend at the moment, well, why did you wait two days? It was out of hope, compassion, or manipulation? I admire your braveness by coming forward sharing your uncomfortable but illustrative experience. It is a rich example of poor judgment from a dancer that probably wants to hear other “tunes” but did not have the character or capacity to do it right. Otherwise, it obviously seems then, that she planned to keep and use you while seeking for other “melodies.” It doesn’t looks to me that she was an “experienced” dancer either. Experienced Argentine Tango dancers are familiar enough with the protocols at milongas. My frank opinion? Your case evidences the regrettable proclivity of more that few AT dancers of being unauthentic with this art, replacing a noble purpose with their personal hidden and dubious agendas. Dancing tango and attending milongas with the main purpose to attract, get relationships, flirt, seduce, conquer, and the like, is a solely consequence of a weak, insecure and immature personality who is craving for constant verifications that they may be attractive and seductive sacrificing their relationships and their own reputation. You are better off now. Forget and forgive…if you can. Rafi ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors
2) so bad that no one else wants to dance with them, or Laugh! Yep, it's true. And, for a long time, that was me. :-) -Original Message- From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) To: Tango-L Sent: Fri, Aug 13, 2010 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors My observation is that a couple who dances a lot with each other (more than 3 tandas) are either: 1) interested in each other, 2) so bad that no one else wants to dance with them, or 3) so much better than everyone else that they're not really interested in dancing with others. As to appropriate behavior, what happens on the dance floor, stays on the dance floor. If there's no interest for after the milonga, then don't carry it off of the floor. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors
My observation is that a couple who dances a lot with each other (more than 3 tandas) are either: 1) interested in each other, 2) so bad that no one else wants to dance with them, or 3) so much better than everyone else that they're not really interested in dancing with others. As to appropriate behavior, what happens on the dance floor, stays on the dance floor. If there's no interest for after the milonga, then don't carry it off of the floor. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L/ Social-ethical behaviors and protocols.
Nicetune: >From a sociological perspective, which gender mostly said you were angry, jealous, etc. and which gender mostly said she was tactless? Buenos Aires milongas has codigos (codes). I haven't seen any rules at North American milongas, except first come, first served. Women tend dance with the first man who asks, even if they want to dance with somebody else, so as not to sit out the tanda. Cabeceo is impossible because the lighting is so dark. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: "Nicetune Piazzola" Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L/ Social-ethical behaviors and protocols. “Are there any traditional unspoken rules at Buenos Aires’ Milongas [or elsewhere] regarding how accompanied women …” (Proper conduct ignored. Cultural differences?) Although all this may be irrelevant to the tread, what is interesting to point out, is the fact that I was judged to be an angry, judgmental, jealous, and controlling man by few of her close friends who, considered that she had done nothing wrong. On the other hand, some other dancers, shared my opinion; according to them she had exhibited tactless, inconsiderate, and even improper behavior, placing me in a humiliating position; all of this aggravated by her subsequent inability to have a rational discussion, adopting a defensive, haughty, and resentful stance. Nicetune ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors
Come on, Nicetune You know what message she was sending you. What you want from the group is a condemnation of her behavior so you can go back to her and 'reason' with her and change her mind. Am I guessing you are an engineer or a lawyer? Reasoning with her about her feelings is a no-win activity for you. Her heart has made the choice. It may not be 'rational' to you but telling her that will not reel her back in. Forcing her to see your point only confirms what she suspects - that you are not the guy for her. She is just not that into you. Or do you maybe want her to wear a scarlet M for Maleva on her forehead? You admit you have broken up. Now you want the jury to decide on her punishment for behaving contrary to your wishes. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L/ Social-ethical behaviors and protocols.
Nicetune You start off by saying this was your ex girlfriend and you end by saying you broke up with her two days after the improper behavior? If she was you’re ex when it happened why would you care? If she was you’re girlfriend when it happened why did it take you two days to break up with her? I have read that in BsAs to dance two tandas with the same man in one night is acceptable any more than that and people will suspect something is going on, and it usually is. In the US there are no codes to follow so it seems like some women are willing to dance all night with the same man. This could be out of desperation, ignorance, or disrespect take your pick. In a message dated 8/13/2010 8:29:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, nicet...@live.com writes: Tango-L/ Social-ethical behaviors and protocols. “Are there any traditional unspoken rules at Buenos Aires’ Milongas [or elsewhere] regarding how accompanied women …” (Proper conduct ignored. Cultural differences?) A very touchy and timely tread, indeed! What I am about to relate could be relevant to cultural differences and ignorance of proper dancing codes at the milonga. Or, perhaps, a personal experience irrelevant to the milonga. You be the judge. Recently, I went to a milonga with my ex-girlfriend, (an experienced milonguera) in this city in mid Florida. We both knew most of the other dancers and they were familiar with us and our relationship except for few (3 or 4) new guests. That night, I got to dance only one tanda with her as she danced again and again with a newcomer (unknown to me), enthusiastically talking while waiting during the cortinas. She showed an evident flirtatious attitude (accommodating her hair with both arms up, and other well known seductive gestures and postures). She walked several times to where the gentleman was sitting and invited him to dance. In addition, he danced almost exclusively with her. I was astonished by her behavior and began steaming up. She got offended later on after the dance, when I tried to discuss her behavior at the milonga. She categorically denied my observations, refused to discuss the issue arguing that she did not know what I was talking about and that "I'm an insecure man." Then, she sabotaged our relationship by being angry, refusing any reasonable dialog, arguing that she had to “lick her wounds.” We broke up two days later. Although all this may be irrelevant to the tread, what is interesting to point out, is the fact that I was judged to be an angry, judgmental, jealous, and controlling man by few of her close friends who, considered that she had done nothing wrong. On the other hand, some other dancers, shared my opinion; according to them she had exhibited tactless, inconsiderate, and even improper behavior, placing me in a humiliating position; all of this aggravated by her subsequent inability to have a rational discussion, adopting a defensive, haughty, and resentful stance. Nicetune ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango-L/ Social-ethical behaviors and protocols.
Tango-L/ Social-ethical behaviors and protocols. “Are there any traditional unspoken rules at Buenos Aires’ Milongas [or elsewhere] regarding how accompanied women …” (Proper conduct ignored. Cultural differences?) A very touchy and timely tread, indeed! What I am about to relate could be relevant to cultural differences and ignorance of proper dancing codes at the milonga. Or, perhaps, a personal experience irrelevant to the milonga. You be the judge. Recently, I went to a milonga with my ex-girlfriend, (an experienced milonguera) in this city in mid Florida. We both knew most of the other dancers and they were familiar with us and our relationship except for few (3 or 4) new guests. That night, I got to dance only one tanda with her as she danced again and again with a newcomer (unknown to me), enthusiastically talking while waiting during the cortinas. She showed an evident flirtatious attitude (accommodating her hair with both arms up, and other well known seductive gestures and postures). She walked several times to where the gentleman was sitting and invited him to dance. In addition, he danced almost exclusively with her. I was astonished by her behavior and began steaming up. She got offended later on after the dance, when I tried to discuss her behavior at the milonga. She categorically denied my observations, refused to discuss the issue arguing that she did not know what I was talking about and that "I'm an insecure man." Then, she sabotaged our relationship by being angry, refusing any reasonable dialog, arguing that she had to “lick her wounds.” We broke up two days later. Although all this may be irrelevant to the tread, what is interesting to point out, is the fact that I was judged to be an angry, judgmental, jealous, and controlling man by few of her close friends who, considered that she had done nothing wrong. On the other hand, some other dancers, shared my opinion; according to them she had exhibited tactless, inconsiderate, and even improper behavior, placing me in a humiliating position; all of this aggravated by her subsequent inability to have a rational discussion, adopting a defensive, haughty, and resentful stance. Nicetune ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] social/ethical behaviors
Sandhill Crane says: "From a North American perspective, even if a woman arriveswith a man, she can still decide for herself who she wantsto dance with." "To assume that a woman who arrives with a manis off-limits to everyone else, is similar to assuming thatshe is his property, something very out of date, from aNorth American perspective, as I was saying. Sandhill Crane, to clarify this point so that there is not doubt whatsoever about it, from an Argentine perspective, a woman is not the property of any man and there is not any anachronism in our customs. It is very simple : The lady arrives to the milonga alone or in company of other ladies and then she dances with whom she wishes. When she arrives to the milonga with a man, this means that "SHE WISHES" to dance only with him, otherwise she would come alone or aat the very least would seat alone. Now that we know that foreign women wish to dance with other men despite of the fact that they come with company, we respect their culture and ask them to dance, no problem whatsoever. But we would not offend the members of an Argentine couple by asking her to dance when she came or sits with a male companion. Certain misunderstandings may occur from time to time: It happened to me some time ago, that I arrived to a new milonga, saw a lady sitting by herself and stared at her to invite her to dance. I should have waited for a period to know the dynamics of that milonga. She motioned for me to come to her table and she said " My male friend just went to the restroom, I cannot dance with you today but I will be glad to dance with you any day I come alone". Summary: Customs are different in different cultures. There is a reason for everything. You may think that somebody's codes are old fashioned other may think that you behave in an immoral, improper or unethical way. Best regards, Sergio ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
