Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Mary, Tuesday, October 10, 2006, 2:22:57 PM, you wrote (possibly edited): > Understood. I concede defeat without in any way agreeing that this is > not a trap for lesser human beings like myself. Just as a suggestion, could you create a template including the "%TO=" and "%SIGNCOMPLETE" macros in it? This way you would create a new blank message and insert this template in it. It should automatically take care of the addressee and the encryption requirements, while avoiding making any typing mistakes of the recipient's address. -- Best regards, Costas Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Roelof! On Tuesday, October 10, 2006, 6:12 AM, you wrote: > Merely checking the listed recipient(s) prevents a lot of > embarrassment, caused by self addressing folder templates or over > enthusiastic autocompletes or in your case lacking encryption. Understood. I concede defeat without in any way agreeing that this is not a trap for lesser human beings like myself. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hallo Mary, On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 13:12:02 -0500GMT (9-10-2006, 20:12 , where I live), you wrote: MB> No, no. Again, you've missed my point. All I have to do is not use the MB> To-field "handle" function. You do know what that is? Doesn't matter. The same will happen when you pick the wrong contact for the addressee from the address book or when you're lured into a mistake by the autocomplete. The most important thing when using an email client is to check the recipient *_before_* composing the message, especially with a template driven beastie like TB. Merely checking the listed recipient(s) prevents a lot of embarrassment, caused by self addressing folder templates or over enthusiastic autocompletes or in your case lacking encryption. -- Groetjes, Roelof Everyone IS entitled to my opinion. http://www.voormijalleen.nl/ The Bat! 3.85.03 Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 1 pop3 account, server on LAN OTFE enabled P4 3GHz 2 GB RAM pgpj2vBrcW6PC.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Alexander! On Monday, October 09, 2006, 3:36 PM, you wrote: >> No, no. Again, you've missed my point. All I have to do is not use the >> To-field "handle" function. You do know what that is? > Sure, I'm using it all the time. Okay, then do you have someone you correspond with regularly, using a handle, in whose template you have %SIGNCOMPLETE? For those whom I have that macro in the template, I shall no longer use the handle. I'll bring up a message from that folder, right-click, and choose "Write a message to this address." Simple as that. No more handle-using, because my brain is subject to short-term inattention, and I think it's a result of aging. I am 79 years old. > I just tried to show an alternative. For anyone else, it would be a very good alternative. However, I did not bring this possible bug, which turned out to be a feature, to TBBETA to get personal help. I brought it to try to solve a security risk--infrequently though it may pop up for TB! users: look at me, it's been 4 years before my attention lapsed and I got bit. Thanks for discussing it with me, Alex. I'm going to start a new thread now, proposing my feature wish. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Mary Bull & everyone else, on 09-Okt-2006 at 20:12 you (Mary Bull) wrote: > No, no. Again, you've missed my point. All I have to do is not use the > To-field "handle" function. You do know what that is? Sure, I'm using it all the time. I just tried to show an alternative. -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de) Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. - Bokonon Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: Bug in template called by handle function?
10/9/2006 2:13 PM Hi Alexander, On 10/9/2006 Alexander S. Kunz wrote: ASK> Maybe you should just change your way of handling things like this. As ASK> Paul said, simply start over again with a new message where you're sure ASK> you typed in the correct handle. It has been my experience for 64 years to see that when something is started inappropriately it tends to finish that way, especially when attempting to automate functions. Because of this, I view starting from the beginning as the only prudent way to insure the appropriate. -- Take Care, Paul Voyager v.3.85.03 on Win2k SP4-Rollup1 5.1.2600 No IMAP OTFE Opera 8.5 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Alexander! On Monday, October 09, 2006, 12:57 PM, you wrote: >> Alex, I thought I wrote clearly, but I guess I didn't: >> I *did* write in the message body. The greeting is part of the message >> body. I changed "Hello siss," to Hello Sue!" > Ah. I have overlooked that detail. I see it now in the paragraph you > wrote, but it was difficult for me to spot it. :-) >> I simply won't use the handle function any more. A great loss of >> convenience for me, of course. But, security over convenience every >> time, in my hierarchy of priorities. > Maybe you should just change your way of handling things like this. As > Paul said, simply start over again with a new message where you're sure > you typed in the correct handle. Or add some subtle change in the > signature, greetings, or somewhere else in the template that uses > encryption, so that you have a visual confirmation that you're indeed > sending the message encrypted. No, no. Again, you've missed my point. All I have to do is not use the To-field "handle" function. You do know what that is? I'm too old and too much a creature of habit to trust my use of it any more, with this trap embedded in it. Remember, I'm going on 80 years old. >> I thought some sort of over-ride for addresses with "%ENCRYPTCOMPLETE" >> in their templates over addresses without that macro might be >> possible to code. > That would require to sorta "classify" the macros. I can't really say if > this is a convenient way to handle this issue, since the personal > preference of users may differ, and the last thing I need would be > another configuration dialogue to classify the macros (just thinking the > idea to the end). Well, I'm not a programmer, of course. :) >>> Maybe there should be some sort of notification window, something >>> like: "Warning - the TO address uses a different message template >>> than the one that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any >>> changes in the editor and apply the new template? " >> Oh, I would be very pleased, even to have that much protection! > Maybe the other members of the list should chime in here so that > eventually a reasonable wish can be formed out of this. That's why I put it up here at TBBETA. If it were only myself, I'd shut up. I've learned my *own* lesson. Baptism of fire, no less! TB! is (one hopes) constantly gaining new customers. I'd hate for this to pop up with no warning in the face of one of them, and with an encrypted message to their bank, for instance. Bad scene. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Mary Bull & everyone else, on 09-Okt-2006 at 19:41 you (Mary Bull) wrote: > Alex, I thought I wrote clearly, but I guess I didn't: > I *did* write in the message body. The greeting is part of the message > body. I changed "Hello siss," to Hello Sue!" Ah. I have overlooked that detail. I see it now in the paragraph you wrote, but it was difficult for me to spot it. :-) > I simply won't use the handle function any more. A great loss of > convenience for me, of course. But, security over convenience every > time, in my hierarchy of priorities. Maybe you should just change your way of handling things like this. As Paul said, simply start over again with a new message where you're sure you typed in the correct handle. Or add some subtle change in the signature, greetings, or somewhere else in the template that uses encryption, so that you have a visual confirmation that you're indeed sending the message encrypted. > I thought some sort of over-ride for addresses with "%ENCRYPTCOMPLETE" > in their templates over addresses without that macro might be > possible to code. That would require to sorta "classify" the macros. I can't really say if this is a convenient way to handle this issue, since the personal preference of users may differ, and the last thing I need would be another configuration dialogue to classify the macros (just thinking the idea to the end). >> Maybe there should be some sort of notification window, something >> like: "Warning - the TO address uses a different message template >> than the one that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any >> changes in the editor and apply the new template? " > Oh, I would be very pleased, even to have that much protection! Maybe the other members of the list should chime in here so that eventually a reasonable wish can be formed out of this. -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de) The crisis of today is the joke of tomorrow. -- H. G. Wells Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Alexander! On Monday, October 09, 2006, 12:14 PM, you wrote: >>> As long as I haven't made any changes to the message body, I can >>> change the recipient, and the template will change with it. So I >>> assume you had already begun typing the actual message, and then >>> changed the recipient. >> Well you are right, but I had only glanced down into the message body >> and seen that the greeting said "Hello ssis," so I put my sister's >> name in there. Only then did I glance up and see in the To field only >> the one word "ssis." As I told before, I did a back-space, tabbed >> down, the address went in, > I just tried to reproduce this. Even when I move into the message editor > and haven't made any changes (not a single keystroke) and then go back > to the header pane to change the TO field, the new template is applied. > Maybe you accidentally typed something (even if its only one letter + > backspace to delete it again). Alex, I thought I wrote clearly, but I guess I didn't: I *did* write in the message body. The greeting is part of the message body. I changed "Hello siss," to Hello Sue!" So, that's why I said, "You are correct.' My problem is that this is a trap waiting for the unwary or the naive--or even a new TB! user--when it comes to the encryption of sensitive material. I can't trust myself not to make a typo again like that and fix the "greeting" in the message body without thinking and then notice the "To" field and go up and type the "handle" which calls the address correctly. I simply won't use the handle function any more. A great loss of convenience for me, of course. But, security over convenience every time, in my hierarchy of priorities. >> You're correct. But both you and Paul are missing the issue that is >> meaningful to me, here. > Oh, I understand the problem, but I see no way around it I thought some sort of over-ride for addresses with "%ENCRYPTCOMPLETE" in their templates over addresses without that macro might be possible to code. That would solve my problem of the "%ENCRYPTCOMPLETE" being over-ridden in the Outbox when a Saved Draft there is opened for a little more editing, also. Two birds with one stone? > ... Either the > already existing message body (if any changes were made) is preserved, > or the template is applied again, clearing the editor window. I understand that that's the current hard-coded feature. But it's a security hazard, all the same. :soapbox: :) > Maybe there should be some sort of notification window, something like: > "Warning - the TO address uses a different message template than the one > that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any changes in the > editor and apply the new template? " Oh, I would be very pleased, even to have that much protection! -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Mary Bull & everyone else, on 08-Okt-2006 at 23:35 you (Mary Bull) wrote: >> As long as I haven't made any changes to the message body, I can >> change the recipient, and the template will change with it. So I >> assume you had already begun typing the actual message, and then >> changed the recipient. > Well you are right, but I had only glanced down into the message body > and seen that the greeting said "Hello ssis," so I put my sister's > name in there. Only then did I glance up and see in the To field only > the one word "ssis." As I told before, I did a back-space, tabbed > down, the address went in, I just tried to reproduce this. Even when I move into the message editor and haven't made any changes (not a single keystroke) and then go back to the header pane to change the TO field, the new template is applied. Maybe you accidentally typed something (even if its only one letter + backspace to delete it again). > You're correct. But both you and Paul are missing the issue that is > meaningful to me, here. Oh, I understand the problem, but I see no way around it. Either the already existing message body (if any changes were made) is preserved, or the template is applied again, clearing the editor window. Maybe there should be some sort of notification window, something like: "Warning - the TO address uses a different message template than the one that was initially applied. Do you want to discard any changes in the editor and apply the new template? " -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de) Lubarsky's Law of Cybernetic Entomology: There's always one more bug. Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: Bug in template called by handle function?
10/8/2006 5:52 PM Hi Mary, On 10/8/2006 Mary Bull wrote: MB> You're correct. But both you and Paul are missing the issue that is MB> meaningful to me, here. Perhaps you are missing a point also. To put this in other words, computers are big glorified calculators that have the ability to store their calculations. They do not have, nor will they have, the ability to read your mind to determine your intentions. They only have the ability to "read" your fingers and the input they provide. -- Take Care, Paul Voyager v.3.85.03 on Win2k SP4-Rollup1 5.1.2600 No IMAP OTFE Opera 8.5 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Alexander! On Sunday, October 08, 2006, 3:47 PM, you wrote: >> Can anyone confirm the behavior? > As long as I haven't made any changes to the message body, I can change > the recipient, and the template will change with it. So I assume you had > already begun typing the actual message, and then changed the recipient. Well you are right, but I had only glanced down into the message body and seen that the greeting said "Hello ssis," so I put my sister's name in there. Only then did I glance up and see in the To field only the one word "ssis." As I told before, I did a back-space, tabbed down, the address went in, And I typed and sent my message. Unencrypted. Unintentionally unencrypted. Because I trusted my template, I did not pull down the Privacy menu and double check. It's too much to ask of my old brain, which is farther down toward entropy than I would like, to remember to check the Privacy menu every time I'm sending something encrypted, when it's such a usual thing with a particular person that habits are embedded. My work-around is not to use these handles any more for persons I encrypt to. And, to me, as an annoyance, it's on a par with the Draft function which does not conserve the PGP settings, because in one folder only--Outbox--folder settings over-ride Address Book settings. And the Outbox serves double-duty as a draft folder box. As soon as I type one thing into the message body of a saved-draft to edit it, "Encrypt when completed" is lost. And the one time I would forget to double-check the pull-down privacy menu would probably be when I was in correspondence with my accountant, or someone else about sensitive material. Stefan Tanurkov knows this drawback. But he won't give Miguel and me a separate Draft folder in which we can customize the settings. > Just tested it with my girlfriend as a recipient, who has a personal > address template, then changed the recipient to be you, and my standard > "english - personal" template was applied. You're correct. > As soon as I typed something in the message body, the template won't > change - this is correct IMHO, because you'd lose what you already wrote > when the new template is applied. You're correct. But both you and Paul are missing the issue that is meaningful to me, here. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Mary Bull & everyone else, on 08-Okt-2006 at 16:42 you (Mary Bull) wrote: > Can anyone confirm the behavior? As long as I haven't made any changes to the message body, I can change the recipient, and the template will change with it. So I assume you had already begun typing the actual message, and then changed the recipient. Just tested it with my girlfriend as a recipient, who has a personal address template, then changed the recipient to be you, and my standard "english - personal" template was applied. As soon as I typed something in the message body, the template won't change - this is correct IMHO, because you'd lose what you already wrote when the new template is applied. -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de) It is the task of science to turn the impossible into the boring. -- Robert Ornstein Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Paul! On Sunday, October 08, 2006, 3:22 PM, you wrote: MB>> If it's a feature, I do believe that it should be changed. > If it were to change the template every time changes were made in the > address it would also keep changing as you add addresses to the first > one. Wouldn't that be a riot!? It's the encryption security issue that I am focused on. I am sure there is a way to code so that PGP encryption in a template would automatically over-ride simple PGP signing in a previous template. And even Stefan Tanurkov agreed with me back when we were having the draft folder discussion that it was a hazard that saving to Draft caused the Outbox to over-ride the PGP encryption settings, so that when one brought up the draft to edit it, the Privacy menu that you depended upon to be set to encrypt was no longer so set. And you have to remember to check that Privacy menu each time you edit a draft in which you had specified an encrypt template. Well--I just don't save to Draft any more. Since we can't have a separate Draft folder. And I won't use my handy "handles" to put To addresses for people I encrypt to anymore. I'll go to the Address Book. But it's a shame. TB! is otherwise so versatile. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: Bug in template called by handle function?
10/8/2006 4:19 PM Hi Mary, On 10/8/2006 Mary Bull wrote: MB> If it's a feature, I do believe that it should be changed. If it were to change the template every time changes were made in the address it would also keep changing as you add addresses to the first one. Wouldn't that be a riot!? -- Take Care, Paul Voyager v.3.85.03 on Win2k SP4-Rollup1 5.1.2600 No IMAP OTFE Opera 8.5 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Paul! On Sunday, October 08, 2006, 2:22 PM, you wrote: MB>> Can anyone confirm the behavior? > I believe you should have deleted the message and started over since > the template call is the first activity and changing the criteria > after loading a template is not a valid move to change the template > itself. I view this as a feature, not a bug. Thanks, Paul. But it's not apparent to a naive user like me. Another of those little traps The Bat! has in store, like not conserving your PGP settings when you save as Draft. If it's a feature, I do believe that it should be changed. -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: Bug in template called by handle function?
10/8/2006 3:20 PM Hi Mary, On 10/8/2006 Mary Bull wrote: MB> Hello Everyone! MB> As seen in my sig, I'm running beta 3.86.02. MB> I have a few correspondents whose templates include "Encrypt when MB> Completed." MB> I use the handle function--for instance, one of my Texas sisters is MB> "sis," and just typing that into the "To" field invokes her address MB> and the template for it. MB> 1) A few minutes ago, I mistyped a handle, and the default Account MB> template kicked in--which is "Sign when Completed," but does not MB> include "Encrypt when Completed," of course. MB> 2) I had an extra letter in my typo. I simply deleted the extra letter MB> with the back button and tabbed down to body text. MB> 3) Didn't even think to check the privacy menu to be sure that "Encrypt MB> when Completed" was enabled. MB> 4) Sent the message. It went "in clear," signed, but not encrypted. MB> Well, it was only a friendly e-mail, so not a lot lost by its having MB> gone "in clear." MB> But it's disconcerting that this happened. MB> Can anyone confirm the behavior? I believe you should have deleted the message and started over since the template call is the first activity and changing the criteria after loading a template is not a valid move to change the template itself. I view this as a feature, not a bug. -- Take Care, Paul Voyager v.3.85.03 on Win2k SP4-Rollup1 5.1.2600 No IMAP OTFE Opera 8.5 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Bug in template called by handle function?
Hello Everyone! As seen in my sig, I'm running beta 3.86.02. I have a few correspondents whose templates include "Encrypt when Completed." I use the handle function--for instance, one of my Texas sisters is "sis," and just typing that into the "To" field invokes her address and the template for it. 1) A few minutes ago, I mistyped a handle, and the default Account template kicked in--which is "Sign when Completed," but does not include "Encrypt when Completed," of course. 2) I had an extra letter in my typo. I simply deleted the extra letter with the back button and tabbed down to body text. 3) Didn't even think to check the privacy menu to be sure that "Encrypt when Completed" was enabled. 4) Sent the message. It went "in clear," signed, but not encrypted. Well, it was only a friendly e-mail, so not a lot lost by its having gone "in clear." But it's disconcerting that this happened. Can anyone confirm the behavior? -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.86.02 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
