Re: Column width with threading

[Ming-Li]

On Tuesday, September 19, 2000, 10:46:34 AM, Oliver wrote:

> somehow  I  didn't notice this before, but I don't like it: I have
> the message  list  configured  with  the  subject  as the first
> column and threading  active.  Now, every time I expand a thread
> (or sub-thread), the  subject  column width increases by some
> pixels. I have some other columns  to  the  right of that which I
> can see well when no thread is expanded.  But  as  soon  as  I get
> two levels deep, I can't see the rightmost column any more because
> it's out of the screen to the right.

It's because TB needs the extra space to accommodate the "plus"
signs and dotted lines that visualize the relationship of a thread.

> Can  I  do  anything about that?

I'm afraid not.

> Is that new or why didn't I notice it before?

It's been ever since I started using TB a few months ago. I don't
like it, either, but so far I haven't got any better idea. I like
how Forte Agent implement threading, but it doesn't have TB's
ability to expand/collapse a sub-thread.

-- 
Best regards,
Ming-Li

The Bat! 1.47 Beta/3 | Win2k SP1

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Oliver Sturm]

Hi Ming-Li,

On Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 12:36:40 AM you wrote:

>> somehow  I  didn't notice this before, but I don't like it: I have
>> the message  list  configured  with  the  subject  as the first
>> column and threading  active.  Now, every time I expand a thread
>> (or sub-thread), the  subject  column width increases by some
>> pixels. I have some other columns  to  the  right of that which I
>> can see well when no thread is expanded.  But  as  soon  as  I get
>> two levels deep, I can't see the rightmost column any more because
>> it's out of the screen to the right.

> It's because TB needs the extra space to accommodate the "plus"
> signs and dotted lines that visualize the relationship of a thread.

Yes, but (acting like a pure user) that's only the column's content to
me.  The  column doesn't expand width when the subject is long, so why
should it expand when there's a plus?

>> Is that new or why didn't I notice it before?

> It's been ever since I started using TB a few months ago. I don't
> like it, either, but so far I haven't got any better idea.

That's  simple:  stop  the grid from resizing the column on expansion.
Or,  internally  *reduce*  width  after expansion of the plus. Did you
ever submit that as a bug? It's a bug to me... after all, you can even
configure  the  exact width of columns by pixels (whatever that should
be  good  for),  just  to  have  them  scroll out of view when reading
threaded mail.


Oliver Sturm

-- 
% ar m God
ar: God does not exist
-- 
Oliver Sturm / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Key ID: 71D86996
Fingerprint: 8085 5C52 60B8 EFBD DAD0  78B8 CE7F 38D7 71D8 6996

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:50:30 +0200, Oliver Sturm wrote:

>> It's because TB needs the extra space to accommodate the "plus"
>> signs and dotted lines that visualize the relationship of a thread.

OS> Yes, but (acting like a pure user) that's only the column's content
OS> to me. The column doesn't expand width when the subject is long, so
OS> why should it expand when there's a plus?

Agreed!!

>> It's been ever since I started using TB a few months ago. I don't
>> like it, either, but so far I haven't got any better idea.

OS> That's simple: stop the grid from resizing the column on expansion.
OS> Or, internally *reduce* width after expansion of the plus. Did you
OS> ever submit that as a bug? It's a bug to me... after all, you can
OS> even configure the exact width of columns by pixels (whatever that
OS> should be good for), just to have them scroll out of view when
OS> reading threaded mail.

Well there are other ways of dealing with the problem.

Gravity simply leaves the threaded column width fixed and it's up to the
user to make it a reasonable size to accommodate expanded threads. This
is somewhat nicer than the TB! method.

Agent deals with it in a nice way by not listing the same information
over and over again. It makes the subject column the one used for
threading. After the initial subject has been listed, the name of the
subsequent posters in the thread appears in the subject column instead
of the subject. This avoids listing the subject over and over again, and
it also offers a nice wide column to thread the sender names. Agent also
has a setting for you to limit the depth of the threading, after which
the names are simply stacked on top of each other. I like this way a lot
but others seem not to.

X-News offers a similar method to Agent in that the thread subject is
displayed only once and that is at the beginning of the thread. After
this, a little card-like icon is displayed in the subject column and
reflects the flow of the threading. Because of this, very deep threads
can be completely displayed without the subject column having to be
widened. This method I like the most. :-)

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "Faith is good, but scepticism is better. - Giuseppe Verdi "

Using TB! v1.46d «» Win2k Pro SP1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

iQA/AwUBOckpV/AXeSHuB5k3EQKXEwCfee9pv1jsxjgQIBzN4Vdmh83QvXQAnAhz
8celAaeim94nCQYWCyHFSYZI
=c0k7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Oliver,


On  Wednesday, September 20, 2000  at  19:50:30 GMT +0200 (which was 10:50 AM
where I live) witnesses say Oliver Sturm typed:


> Yes, but (acting like a pure user) that's only the column's content to
> me.  The  column doesn't expand width when the subject is long, so why
> should it expand when there's a plus?

Try changing your first column to something other than
the subject.  This resizing is a property of the first column.  I
don't care for it much, but there are few good solutions.  As Allie
mentioned, Xnews has a pretty good system, but it is an all or none
view.  You see all the thread, or none of it.  If we could only
combine TB's collapsing with Xnew's card scheme, I would be very
happy.


-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.47 Beta/3
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:13:32 -0700, Januk Aggarwal wrote:

>> Yes, but (acting like a pure user) that's only the column's content to
>> me.  The  column doesn't expand width when the subject is long, so why
>> should it expand when there's a plus?

JA> Try changing your first column to something other than the subject.

I'm afraid that will not make a difference since the incremental change
in the column size remains the same. The incremental adjustment is
absolute and not relative to the initial column size.

JA> This resizing is a property of the first column. I don't care for it
JA> much, but there are few good solutions. As Allie mentioned, Xnews
JA> has a pretty good system, but it is an all or none view. You see all
JA> the thread, or none of it.

I don't understand what you mean there.

JA> If we could only combine TB's collapsing with Xnew's card scheme, I
JA> would be very happy.

Even the cards wouldn't work with TB!. In TB!, if I use the sender name
as the threading column and make it very thick, expanding a thread by
one level, further widens the column, even though to two names would
have been easily accommodated with the column size as is.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "Virtuoso: A musician with very high morals. "

Using TB! v1.46d «» Win2k Pro SP1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 6.5.8
Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification.

iQA/AwUBOclbpfAXeSHuB5k3EQLLrACgtq9JCUPi+ckLCwAsIVejECV5G5EAoNfY
wlFwPU0xOFnkKiWlemtW6TR7
=qrB0
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Ming-Li]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2000, 5:51:49 PM, A. wrote:

JA>> This resizing is a property of the first column. I don't care
JA>> for it much, but there are few good solutions. As Allie
JA>> mentioned, Xnews has a pretty good system, but it is an all or
JA>> none view. You see all the thread, or none of it.

> I don't understand what you mean there.

I've stopped using XNews for quite a while, so I'm not exactly sure
how it behaves. But if it's similar to Agent, then what Januk means
is that you can open/close a thread, but not part of it. In TB, each
sub-thread has its own little "+/-" sign that opens/closes it, but
not in Agent (and maybe XNews).

In general I like Agent's way of threading, as you described,
especially in that it shows the subject line once, and then showing
author names only using the combined space for subject and author,
giving it enough room to visualize the threading structure. Yet it's
not without shortcomings. Aside from what Januk suggested, it
doesn't allow rearranging column structure (except adjusting the
width of columns). That's why I said I've got a better idea (for a
perfect threaded view).

-- 
Best regards,
Ming-Li

The Bat! 1.47 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Oliver Sturm]

Hi Ming-Li,

On Thursday, September 21, 2000 at 3:13:07 PM you wrote:

I'm  just  replying  to  the  last  message in the thread here, not to
Ming-Li personally.

I  know  neither  Agent's  nor XNews's way of doing things, and I'm in
fact  quite  satisfied  with  TB's  way  of visualising threading (the
threading  itself  is  not  so  good).  The  only  thing  is,  I don't
understand  where the idea comes from to destroy my screen layout when
I  read  some message, be it at the top or the bottom of a thread. So,
the  visual  representation  would be fine for me if the column simply
kept  it's  size  (which,  to repeat myself, I can set manually by the
pixel). I have a 1280 screen width and my first column is really wide,
to view even long subjects and also those on a deeper threading level.
But it shouldn't be resizing all the time!

I don't know if this is even intended behaviour, because I can't see
what should be good about this.


Oliver Sturm

-- 
%make love
Make:  Don't know how to make love.  Stop.
-- 
Oliver Sturm / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Key ID: 71D86996
Fingerprint: 8085 5C52 60B8 EFBD DAD0  78B8 CE7F 38D7 71D8 6996

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Ming-Li]

On Thursday, September 21, 2000, 10:24:03 AM, Oliver wrote:

> Hi Ming-Li,

> I  know  neither  Agent's  nor XNews's way of doing things, and
> I'm in fact  quite  satisfied  with  TB's  way  of visualising
> threading (the threading  itself  is  not  so  good).

Again, I can't talk about XNews since my memory has faded. Agent
does this and it's quite clever, at least to me:

Subject  Author Date

This is a thread John   9/23/00
Mary
Joe
Jackson
Oliver
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nobody
somebody
This is another thread   Linda  9/23/00
 .

I hope that's clear enough (Note that I omitted other irrelevant
columns). Because the subject line is shown only once per thread, it
separate threads visually with ease. It then use the combined space
of the Subject and Author columns to show authors only, giving it
enough room to indent the information and present the hierarchical
relationship between them. The user may decide the width and the
maximum layers of indentation.

It has its downside, however. Whenever there's a long thread, which
isn't unusual in newsgroups, the subject line is missing from the
message list window. You'll have to look it up in the message header
pane.

Second, the order of the columns can't be adjusted, for Agent needs
the subject column and the author column to be held together.

Third, you can only collapse/expand the whole thread, not part of
it.

Except the second one, I guess none of these can't be overcome. As I
said, however, Agent's development has been all but abandoned. Pity.

> The  only thing  is,  I don't understand  where the idea comes
> from to destroy my screen layout when I  read  some message, be it
> at the top or the bottom of a thread. So, the  visual
> representation would be fine for me if the column simply kept
> it's  size (which,  to repeat myself, I can set manually by the
> pixel). I have a 1280 screen width and my first column is really
> wide, to view even long subjects and also those on a deeper
> threading level. But it shouldn't be resizing all the time!

It's a little more complicated than that. Because the column order
is adjustable by the user, the first column isn't necessarily the
Subject column. Take "Message Flag" for example, which is TB's
default and also the first column of my personalized settings.
Without expanding the width of the column automatically, it would
soon run out of space. And I certainly don't want to fix the width
of the Message Flag column to really wide just to accommodate long
threads.

This is not to say the problem can't be overcome or mitigated. I'm
just saying it's not as easy as it seems, and I'm glad for not being
the one who has to come out with a perfect solution. :)

-- 
Best regards,
Ming-Li

The Bat! 1.47 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1


-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Oliver Sturm]

Hi Ming-Li,

On Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 3:20:29 PM you wrote:

>> I  know  neither  Agent's  nor XNews's way of doing things, and
>> I'm in fact  quite  satisfied  with  TB's  way  of visualising
>> threading (the threading  itself  is  not  so  good).

> Again, I can't talk about XNews since my memory has faded. Agent
> does this and it's quite clever, at least to me:

> Subject  Author Date

> This is a thread John   9/23/00

> I hope that's clear enough (Note that I omitted other irrelevant
> columns).

I know that way of threading, Gnus can do it in a similar way.


> This is not to say the problem can't be overcome or mitigated. I'm
> just saying it's not as easy as it seems, and I'm glad for not being
> the one who has to come out with a perfect solution. :)

I  think we have different opinions about what is "the problem" we are
discussing.  To  me,  the  problem  is not that any column is not wide
enough  for  it's  content  or  that I can't see enough information. I
don't  care if the subject is repeated multiple times, although that's
wasted  space.  But I don't want the first column to get wider all the
time when the thread is expanded. There's no reason for that, because

a) I  can  read  the  subject  perfectly  in the first message of the
   thread, even if it's very long.
b) TB *always* widens the column, even if the subject is very short.

But by widening the column, other columns to the right are immediately
out of screen. That's my problem, not anything that's displayed in the
columns.

Oliver Sturm

-- 
Always proofread carefully in case you something out.
-- 
Oliver Sturm / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Key ID: 71D86996
Fingerprint: 8085 5C52 60B8 EFBD DAD0  78B8 CE7F 38D7 71D8 6996

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Ming-Li]

On Saturday, September 23, 2000, 8:01:20 AM, Oliver wrote:

> I  think we have different opinions about what is "the problem" we
> are discussing.  [...] I don't want the first column to get wider
> all the time when the thread is expanded. There's no reason for
> that, because

> a) I  can  read  the  subject  perfectly  in the first message of the
>thread, even if it's very long.
> b) TB *always* widens the column, even if the subject is very short.

I understand your problem and I thought I answered in the second
part. Too bad I didn't make it clear. As I tried to explain, the
first column isn't always the subject column, and is the "Message
Flag" column by default. In such cases, the intended information
(the message flag, and the threading facilities) would be soon
pushed out of bound if it's not widen automatically.

As I said, it's not something undoable. There could be options (for
fixing the column width), or TB could try to detect if Subject is
the first column. I'm merely trying to say it's more complicated for
it has other factors to consider, and TB doesn't do this "for no
reason".

-- 
Best regards,
Ming-Li

The Bat! 1.47 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Oliver Sturm]

Hi Ming-Li,

On Saturday, September 23, 2000 at 5:52:42 PM you wrote:

>> I  think we have different opinions about what is "the problem" we
>> are discussing.  [...] I don't want the first column to get wider
>> all the time when the thread is expanded. There's no reason for
>> that, because

>> a) I  can  read  the  subject  perfectly  in the first message of the
>>thread, even if it's very long.
>> b) TB *always* widens the column, even if the subject is very short.

> I understand your problem and I thought I answered in the second
> part. Too bad I didn't make it clear.

Maybe you did and I didn't understand, sorry.

> As I tried to explain, the first column isn't always the subject
> column, and is the "Message Flag" column by default. In such cases,
> the intended information (the message flag, and the threading
> facilities) would be soon pushed out of bound if it's not widen
> automatically.

Is that true (meaning the message flag being first column by default)?
Try my settings, then, you'll see the most ridiculous thread layout.

I  have  set  threads  to  be  viewed by references. Additionally, I'm
sorting   by  the  field  "Created",  ascending  (meaning  the  newest
messages  at  the bottom of the list). Usually, my first column is the
subject. Now move the message flag column to the absolute left, taking
position  from  the  subject.  Expand  this  (quite  long) thread some
levels.  Is it only me, or does the column even change width now, with
the little envelope all over the place?

> As I said, it's not something undoable. There could be options (for
> fixing the column width), or TB could try to detect if Subject is
> the first column. I'm merely trying to say it's more complicated for
> it has other factors to consider, and TB doesn't do this "for no
> reason".

The  main  problem, taking into account the issue above, is that those
usual  grid/treeview  controls can display the hierarchy lines in only
one column at a time. So, even if one could keep the first column from
resizing,  this would only look nice if the column's original width is
large  enough to accommodate at least some levels of "line structure".
Anyway,  as  they  probably  don't  use  a "standard" listview for the
message list, they might be able to do something about it.



Oliver Sturm

-- 
Always proofread carefully in case you something out.
-- 
Oliver Sturm / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Key ID: 71D86996
Fingerprint: 8085 5C52 60B8 EFBD DAD0  78B8 CE7F 38D7 71D8 6996

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Luca]

20/09/2000, Ming-Li:
> I like
> how Forte Agent implement threading, but it doesn't have TB's
> ability to expand/collapse a sub-thread.

More, in Agent you have to navigate with "start a new thread when a
follow-up subject changes" if you want to see changes in subjects.
Anyway, I like Agent's threading too.

I think an improvement in TB could be obtained simply by providing a
split mode with full width message list pane (Agent allows any
combination) and/or by letting users choose (proportional) fonts in
column headers, subjects, etc.

-- 
Luca

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org

Re: Column width with threading

[Ming-Li]

On Wednesday, October 04, 2000, 4:16:19 AM, Luca wrote:

>> I like how Forte Agent implement threading, but it doesn't have
>> TB's ability to expand/collapse a sub-thread.

> More, in Agent you have to navigate with "start a new thread when a
> follow-up subject changes" if you want to see changes in subjects.

It took me a while to understand what you mean, for I've taken that
option for granted and have never thought of it as a drawback. :) In
fact, I wish TB can start a new thread when a follow-up subject
changes as Agent does. But I got your point.

> I think an improvement in TB could be obtained simply by providing
> a split mode with full width message list pane (Agent allows any
> combination)

While TB doesn't do this, it allows unlimited folder view windows,
where you get the full width message list pane, which is a even
nicer solution, IMHO.

> and/or by letting users choose (proportional) fonts
> in column headers, subjects, etc.

Ehhh, it does, actually. The option is a bit hidden, though. Go to
"Message | Color Group | Edit Color Groups" and you'll see a "Font"
button. Yes, proportional fonts are accepted.

-- 
Best regards,
Ming-Li

The Bat! 1.47 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1

-- 
--
View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com
To send a message to the list moderation team double click here:
   
To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message:
   
--

You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org