Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 22:49 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 06/20/2013 10:05 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: So if I'm reading things right, no, langtable doesn't currently make any attempt to associate each Indian language with a territory any more specific than 'India', and as currently implemented, couldn't actually do this. Mike may well correct me if I'm wrong and he's reading, though. It may be the case that he'd consider it valid to extend the concept of a 'territory' down to province/state level but just hasn't implemented it yet, or it may be that he considers it to be strictly tied to the ISO 3166 standard. I don't know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_with_official_status_in_India#States has a mapping of languages to states if anyone wants to go that route and if you need more help, feel free to ping me. So I did one more bit of digging into this - went and checked what anaconda actually *does* with prelocation and translations. Here it is, from welcome.py: # We can use the territory from geolocation here # to preselect the translation, when it's available. territory = geoloc.get_territory_code() self.language = Language(LOCALE_PREFERENCES, territory=territory) # check if there is one and only one locale for the territory if len(self.language.preferred_locales) != 1: log.info(Didn't get a single locale from Geolocation, falling back to default locale.) self.language = Language(LOCALE_PREFERENCES, territory=None) # Explanation: # Some territories have multiple locales, # for example, the Switzerland has: # de_CH, it_CH and fr_CH # As there is no clear order of preference for them, # it is safer to just fall back to the default locale So it definitely is trying to pick a default language from the geolocation-determined territory, but if the territory it decides you're in has more than one language associated with it in langtable, it gives up and falls back on 'the default locale' (i.e. US English). So this is actually good for our big test case, India - presumably people in India will wind up with U.S. English as the pre-selected language, which is what we thought would be best anyway. There could potentially still be some problems, but at least some of the more problematic cases should actually be okay. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 05:54:33PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 12:39 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: On 14/06/13 12:31, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 12:28 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: Well, I configured the wireless network prior to get to the installation summary with all the spokes in the previous screen, and it correctly got the assigned host name IPv4 address. So I asumed the network was up. Also from that point on, I did nothing explicit to do with networks, and I has able to ssh in after reboot! Could be a bug with the geoloc stuff in the case where you need the pre-hub network screen, I guess. Does the network config screen come up *before* or *after* the Welcome screen? The welcome screen comes up first: WELCOME TO FEDORA 19-TC3. Ah. Well then obviously it can't guess your language based on your location at that point, as you haven't configured the network yet. This seems reasonable - it's probably better to do it this way around than the other (which would make the geoloc work, but require people to navigate the network spoke in English first). If it doesn't re-do the geoloc stuff to get the timezone at least correct after you complete the network screen, though, that could be considered a bug. Just FYI, we have another method of guessing language now as well - *if* you've got a UEFI machine, and the firmware vendor has set the language the firmware is in, and that language is in our list, we'll use it. So if e.g. you buy a new PC in the middle of China, it's possible that it'll come up in Simplified Chinese. So far I've seen a couple of machines that at least support different languages reasonably well in the firmware *and* correctly set the values that tell us what language they're using, but I haven't seen anything default to non-en_US. That said, I'm in Massachusetts, so the odds aren't that high that I would. Obviously, this is just for language, not timezone. -- Peter -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 16:01 -0400, Peter Jones wrote: On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 05:54:33PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 12:39 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: On 14/06/13 12:31, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 12:28 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: Well, I configured the wireless network prior to get to the installation summary with all the spokes in the previous screen, and it correctly got the assigned host name IPv4 address. So I asumed the network was up. Also from that point on, I did nothing explicit to do with networks, and I has able to ssh in after reboot! Could be a bug with the geoloc stuff in the case where you need the pre-hub network screen, I guess. Does the network config screen come up *before* or *after* the Welcome screen? The welcome screen comes up first: WELCOME TO FEDORA 19-TC3. Ah. Well then obviously it can't guess your language based on your location at that point, as you haven't configured the network yet. This seems reasonable - it's probably better to do it this way around than the other (which would make the geoloc work, but require people to navigate the network spoke in English first). If it doesn't re-do the geoloc stuff to get the timezone at least correct after you complete the network screen, though, that could be considered a bug. Just FYI, we have another method of guessing language now as well - *if* you've got a UEFI machine, and the firmware vendor has set the language the firmware is in, and that language is in our list, we'll use it. So if e.g. you buy a new PC in the middle of China, it's possible that it'll come up in Simplified Chinese. So far I've seen a couple of machines that at least support different languages reasonably well in the firmware *and* correctly set the values that tell us what language they're using, but I haven't seen anything default to non-en_US. That said, I'm in Massachusetts, so the odds aren't that high that I would. Obviously, this is just for language, not timezone. On general principles, I'm rather reluctant to trust *firmware providers* of all people to be a reliable source of...well...anything at all. Is this really a good idea? Doesn't Murphy's Law Of Firmware Engineers pretty much predict that someone is going to set the 'firmware language' variable to Chinese even when the firmware's actually in English, or something? This is the kind of thing we want to have very few 'false positive' results on, given that if we get it wrong, there is a very high chance the first screen of the installer will inexplicably look like gibberish. I think people are usually willing to tolerate it defaulting to English when they speak something else - English is pretty much the unofficial lingua franca of Tech In General, if nothing else, everyone's pretty much resigned to it by now - but people (of whatever nationality) are far more likely to find it problematic if it defaults to a non-English language which is incorrect. It may even be politically sensitive in some cases (hiya, Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere!) Frankly I'm not 100% convinced that it's a good idea to try and guess language even from a fairly reliable geolocation mechanism like ours. It's still not 100% reliable - people behind corporate VPNs can be routed through just about anywhere - and even when it gives a correct geographic location, what the hell do you do for, say, India? Where you'd need to have house-level accuracy to have a snowball's chance in hell of guessing what language someone speaks? I mean, even the US's hat is officially a bilingual country, and the US itself is pretty much unofficially bilingual at this point (please don't take this as a political statement, sensitive USians, it's a purely pragmatic one: we can't 100% safely assume someone wants to install Fedora in English just because they are geographically located in the United States). I know vpodzime is thinking of changing the whole language/location logic for F20, which is probably a good thing. If we have a question which is simply 'what country are you in?' - as distinct from 'what language do you speak?' - it would seem reasonable (though still somewhat politically fraught, in a few cases...) to guess that from geolocation, and populate the 'most likely' list of languages from langtable's association of languages with countries. But just going straight to guessing a language, cold, based on location, seems to me a mechanism that's prone to failing in embarrassing ways. Apologies I didn't bring this up sooner - we may have to eat it for F19, but I'm just _really_ not sure it's a great idea. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/21/13 09:04, Adam Williamson wrote: English is pretty much the unofficial lingua franca of Tech In General, if nothing else, everyone's pretty much resigned to it by now - but people (of whatever nationality) are far more likely to find it problematic if it defaults to a non-English language which is incorrect. It may even be politically sensitive in some cases (hiya, Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere!) Yep Heaven forbid you display Simplified Chinese to the end user in Taiwan. :-) :-) -- The only thing worse than a poorly asked question is a cryptic answer. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/20/2013 09:04 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: Frankly I'm not 100% convinced that it's a good idea to try and guess language even from a fairly reliable geolocation mechanism like ours. It's still not 100% reliable - people behind corporate VPNs can be routed through just about anywhere - and even when it gives a correct geographic location, what the hell do you do for, say, India? Where you'd need to have house-level accuracy to have a snowball's chance in hell of guessing what language someone speaks? It is not that bad despite the recognized thousands of languages, only about 30 or so are considered major and less than that would have meet the necessary L10N criteria anyway. Most speak in India speak several different languages and you can guess the primary language spoken in any given area quite reliably since the states boundaries were drawn by the major language spoken in that area. Speaking as someone who has done L10N work before, I would assume a number of users in India who install Fedora would want the installation in English and not in their native language since technical terms often have translations that local speakers themselves wouldn't recognize. If the installer lets one pick English quickly, it is not a problem if the default guess is wrong. Rahul -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 21:19 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 06/20/2013 09:04 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: Frankly I'm not 100% convinced that it's a good idea to try and guess language even from a fairly reliable geolocation mechanism like ours. It's still not 100% reliable - people behind corporate VPNs can be routed through just about anywhere - and even when it gives a correct geographic location, what the hell do you do for, say, India? Where you'd need to have house-level accuracy to have a snowball's chance in hell of guessing what language someone speaks? It is not that bad despite the recognized thousands of languages, only about 30 or so are considered major and less than that would have meet the necessary L10N criteria anyway. Most speak in India speak several different languages and you can guess the primary language spoken in any given area quite reliably since the states boundaries were drawn by the major language spoken in that area. Speaking as someone who has done L10N work before, I would assume a number of users in India who install Fedora would want the installation in English and not in their native language since technical terms often have translations that local speakers themselves wouldn't recognize. If the installer lets one pick English quickly, it is not a problem if the default guess is wrong. To me that's just more illustration of the problem. Do things look better to an Indian who just wants to install in English anyway if we: a) default to English? b) default to an Indian language they don't speak at all? Seem pretty clear-cut to me. We have Gujarati, Hindi, Kannada, Malayalam, Marathi, Oriya, Tamil and Telugu in the installer; I've no idea which we default to for India (or if we just wave a white flag and go for English), or if langtable actually tries to distinguish by province at all, but I'm kind of pessimistic about our likely success rate in this mechanism. (We also have Bengali for Bangladesh and Punjabi and Urdu for Pakistan; I am going to go out on a limb and guess we really wouldn't want to get those mixed up in any way). For other 'fraught' geopolitical areas we have Traditional and Simplified Chinese, Japanese, and Korean all in the installer - none of which you'd particular want to get wrong. We have Hebrew (Israel); I sure hope our geolocation is right on point there. We have Catalan and 'Spanish' (which some prefer to call 'Castilian'...) both associated with Spain. Oh look! We also have Basque, just to complete the set. We've got Bosnian and Serbian. I haven't looked at langtable to see what actual associations anaconda is going to wind up drawing from the geoloc data, I'm just highlighting language sets in the list which you really wouldn't want to get mixed up via geolocation...yes, this stuff really does get people mad if you get it wrong. Defaulting to English seems rather safer. I suppose, for testing purposes, it'd be rather handy to be able to feed arbitrary results or source data - fake an IP address, etc - into the geoloc processing mechanism via a kernel parameter or kickstart or something... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/20/2013 09:40 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: To me that's just more illustration of the problem. Do things look better to an Indian who just wants to install in English anyway if we: a) default to English? b) default to an Indian language they don't speak at all? Obviously its globally easier if you default to English but I assumed since Anaconda is trying to guess, you want to fine tune it rather than revert that behavior. If Anaconda is picking up a default only at a country level, that certainly doesn't make much sense in India and English is a better choice. Rahul -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 21:52 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On 06/20/2013 09:40 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: To me that's just more illustration of the problem. Do things look better to an Indian who just wants to install in English anyway if we: a) default to English? b) default to an Indian language they don't speak at all? Obviously its globally easier if you default to English but I assumed since Anaconda is trying to guess, you want to fine tune it rather than revert that behavior. If Anaconda is picking up a default only at a country level, that certainly doesn't make much sense in India and English is a better choice. AIUI it basically farms it off to langtable, so let's stop guessing and look at langtable: https://raw.github.com/mike-fabian/langtable/master/data/languages.xml I think that's it, anyhow. As I'm reading it, it has the concept that a 'language' can map to an arbitrary number of 'territories' (and various other things that don't concern us here). Territories are defined here: https://github.com/mike-fabian/langtable/blob/master/data/territories.xml From a brief look through that, it looks like it's basically the concept of a 'territory' doesn't really extend down to state/province/county etc. level. Instead it looks to be pretty much a straight out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1 listing - i.e., it's basically 'countries', with fudges for politically sensitive cases like Hong Kong and Taiwan. So if I'm reading things right, no, langtable doesn't currently make any attempt to associate each Indian language with a territory any more specific than 'India', and as currently implemented, couldn't actually do this. Mike may well correct me if I'm wrong and he's reading, though. It may be the case that he'd consider it valid to extend the concept of a 'territory' down to province/state level but just hasn't implemented it yet, or it may be that he considers it to be strictly tied to the ISO 3166 standard. I don't know. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/20/2013 10:05 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: So if I'm reading things right, no, langtable doesn't currently make any attempt to associate each Indian language with a territory any more specific than 'India', and as currently implemented, couldn't actually do this. Mike may well correct me if I'm wrong and he's reading, though. It may be the case that he'd consider it valid to extend the concept of a 'territory' down to province/state level but just hasn't implemented it yet, or it may be that he considers it to be strictly tied to the ISO 3166 standard. I don't know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_with_official_status_in_India#States has a mapping of languages to states if anyone wants to go that route and if you need more help, feel free to ping me. Rahul -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 2013-06-14 12:53 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 15:40 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: Mount point among the input fields appears above everything except (the inexplicably present input field:) device name (duplicating the larger bolder device name above it to left). One should be able to fill it in at any time, including (logically top to bottom) first. Well, no, because it's not a legitimate operation to assign a mount point to a partition that is set to contain no filesystem. It can't be mounted. Why should the configuration be allowed? If anaconda let you do this, you could then complete custom part with a partition given a mount point, but not containing a filesystem: what are you expecting anaconda to do in this case? Write a nonsensical fstab? Implement an error condition on trying to complete custom partitioning in this situation? It's already running a sanity check by not allowing some fields to be completed prior to the secret prerequsite field. Why shouldn't the check be run when the user tries to exit the screen, with another of those little ! icons to indicate something's missing? Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks at the done-exit point is when it makes good sense to do the check: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Suse/yast2-04-expertPartChooseEdit0768.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Suse/yast2-04-expertPart18Select0768.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Suse/yast2-04-expertPart18Config0768.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Suse/yast2-04-expertPart18Options0768.png Why is that better than just not allowing a mount point to be set in the first place until a filesystem is set? Easier to avoid user being frustrated. Whatever is prerequisite to other should be above other. I'm not a UI expert, so I don't know if this is an accepted principle of UI design. Might be good to ask Mo about. In USA and elsewhere Latin alphabets are normal, people read left to right and top to bottom. Top to bottom is how forms are most commonly laid out. Forms usually also allow field completion in no particular order as long as all required receive valid entries. When a prerequisite exists, typically whatever it is prerequisite to is not presented or available before it's appropriate to complete. Anaconda has this latter, but the prerequsite is a secret. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
consider people with poor vision, was Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...[consider people with poor vision
On 15/06/13 16:22, Felix Miata wrote: On 2013-06-14 12:53 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: [...] Among the many other complaints other people have raised about the installer, I don't recall one other person complaining about text being too small. Do you think people in the business of developing software or otherwise using a PC for most of any given work day are people whose vision is below average? I don't. I think quite the opposite, that those with poorer than average vision gravitate away from using a PC screen any more than they must, that many won't do it at all, and that few such people pursue occupations that require doing more than a little that requires using a PC. Net result is most in the puter business, including FOSS software testers, have both better than average vision, and more importantly, little or no understanding of or appreciation for the difficulties encountered by those who see less well. People aren't complaining because the people doing are almost entirely made up of a class of people with good vision, people who do it because they don't have undue visual obstacles to doing it. [...] For several years, I often had very misty vision because the layer of cells above my cornea could not handle moisture properly. Sometimes it was so bad that I could hardly read the keyboard at 300mm, and glancing around the screen meant I could eassily miss things. I remember concentrating hard to resolve whether a character was a comma ',' or a full stop '.' (similarly 'a' 'e') - not good for a software developer. I have had cataract surgery, and surgery to replace those layer of cells from grafts. So now I can see the screen quite fine with glasses - even from a metre away, whereas previously I needed to be at 600mm or closer depending on how misty my eyes were. Well I am 62 and still doing software development - so please do not put important things in small print and avoid dark grey text on a light grey background etc. (I can read it if I notice it, but I might miss its significant if I just glance at the screen). When my eyes were misty, I often recognised things by their overall shape even when individual characters where fuzzy. I am lucky (I know people who were a lot younger than I am, with much worse vision), I now can reduce fonts to less than their default sizes and see quite well, though I notice I tend to make browser text bigger. For me, what helped most (prior to my eye surgeries) was getting a 30 monitor. Now the biggest nuisance is swapping glasses: one for my laptop, one for my monitor, and no glasses required for walking around driving. In conclusion, there is a whole continuum between perfect vision being blind. So for really important things, especially if considered unexpected (either by new people - or people familiar with that screen, but something important has changed) be carefully how the text is presented. Cheers, Gavin -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: consider people with poor vision, was Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...[consider people with poor vision
On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 12:07 +0300, moshe nahmias wrote: I agree with Gavin, I have a poor vision because of Keratoconus and on most cases it's not easy or comfortable for me to read things when installing fedora. More important is that we should consider poor eyesight since we want any one to be able to install and use fedora. I would want (for F20 if possible) to be able to change the font size easily. It's really not technically possible to do that with how anaconda's written. The UI is to an extent written around the text. You can't just change all the text to be 20pt in size and still have the UI work; stuff just doesn't _fit_ any more. I'm going to look up some a11y guidelines from respectable institutions and file a few bugs on things it might be plausible to fix, but it's not any kind of simple 'implement ctrl+' fix, I'm afraid. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 2013-06-13 15:42 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: All existing partitions are shown in the tree view on the left hand side of custom partitioning. You can select one and assign a mount point to it on the right hand side, and choose whether or not to reformat it. Its unintuitive logic has me pretty well baffled. I started my first new installation since December on Wednesday evening. Since then, all my F19s had been the result of F18 upgrades, most of which were F17 upgrades, many of which were F16 upgrades. I didn't like Fedora's old installer much. I like the current one a lot less. I started with this partititon layout: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/kt880L09.txt When I started, sda20 was a freshly created empty EXT3, and my target for F19's /. In spite of a huge variety of difficulty, a few hours after beginning I somehow managed to get a working Basic Desktop installed onto it, followed by adding as much of KDE as I'll ever use, for a net 73% used of the total 4.8G partition size. More than 60% of the gross time since beginning, at least 15 hours estimated net, I was doing nothing unrelated to F19 installation, including trying unsuccessfully to get a minimal installation onto the identically sized sda19. Each time I got as far as http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-06parts-0768.png and no further than being told insufficient space http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-11addfailure-1024.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-04partoptions-1200.png even though available space for / on sda19 is identical to the successful and larger http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedora19tc3-KDEinstsum.png installation. It let me select the empty 4.8G partitions for formatting, but no amount of clicking on the add mount point or configure selected mount point buttons would allow me any progress in attempting to fill in the partition characteristics fields - until: in advance of beginning an installation attempt, I put a filesystem on the never-used-previously target / partition!?!?!?! Is absence of any filesystem on a target / supposed to block installation??? http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/ has screenshots mostly of the installation process, in part because without them the problems have been too numerous to for me to be able to remember. My difficulty with Anaconda's wheel logic is compounded by the illegibility of its tiny gray text on gray background. I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out some way to get legible text. The closest thing to a solution I've been able to come up with is using both video= and resolution= on cmdline, both set much lower than the CRT's preferred mode, with the X resolution much lower than my personal preferred mode. A byproduct of coming up with it is I did some editing of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda_Boot_Options, initially replacing resolution= with video=, then adding resolution= back, as video only affects the KMS framebuffer, while resolution only affects X. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 05:24:18 -0400 Felix Miata wrote: Its unintuitive logic has me pretty well baffled. Me too. My preferred install technique these days is to install into a nice new virtual machine where it can't screw anything up, then guestmount and rsync the virtual machine image to the real partition where I want it to live and edit grub.cfg to fixup the root definitions and fstab to fix the mounts. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 05:24 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: On 2013-06-13 15:42 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: All existing partitions are shown in the tree view on the left hand side of custom partitioning. You can select one and assign a mount point to it on the right hand side, and choose whether or not to reformat it. Its unintuitive logic has me pretty well baffled. I started my first new installation since December on Wednesday evening. Since then, all my F19s had been the result of F18 upgrades, most of which were F17 upgrades, many of which were F16 upgrades. I didn't like Fedora's old installer much. I like the current one a lot less. I started with this partititon layout: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/kt880L09.txt When I started, sda20 was a freshly created empty EXT3, and my target for F19's /. In spite of a huge variety of difficulty, a few hours after beginning I somehow managed to get a working Basic Desktop installed onto it, followed by adding as much of KDE as I'll ever use, for a net 73% used of the total 4.8G partition size. More than 60% of the gross time since beginning, at least 15 hours estimated net, I was doing nothing unrelated to F19 installation, including trying unsuccessfully to get a minimal installation onto the identically sized sda19. Each time I got as far as http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-06parts-0768.png and no further than being told insufficient space http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-11addfailure-1024.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-04partoptions-1200.png even though available space for / on sda19 is identical to the successful and larger http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedora19tc3-KDEinstsum.png installation. It let me select the empty 4.8G partitions for formatting, but no amount of clicking on the add mount point or configure selected mount point buttons would allow me any progress in attempting to fill in the partition characteristics fields - until: in advance of beginning an installation attempt, I put a filesystem on the never-used-previously target / partition!?!?!?! Is absence of any filesystem on a target / supposed to block installation??? Well, no, but it seems pretty clear to me what you should have done at the point of http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-06parts-0768.png : changed the 'File System' drop down to whatever you wanted to use (ext4, whatever) and then entered / for the 'Mount Point'. That ought to have been sufficient. All you've done in the screenshot is tell anaconda to reformat the partition: you haven't told it you actually want to *use* it for anything. 'Add Mount Point' is for creating a new partition, and 'configure selected mount point' is only going to work for a partition that has been assigned a mount point. Did you try, at any point, reading the documentation? The F18 Installation Guide did a rather good job of documenting how newUI works. http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/ has screenshots mostly of the installation process, in part because without them the problems have been too numerous to for me to be able to remember. My difficulty with Anaconda's wheel logic is compounded by the illegibility of its tiny gray text on gray background. If you're talking about http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-03destination-1024.png , it's not actually meant to be that small, I don't think. It doesn't look like that for me in VMs or on metal. What environment are you running the installer in, exactly? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 05:24 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-06parts-0768.png and no further than being told insufficient space http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-11addfailure-1024.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-04partoptions-1200.png even though available space for / on sda19 is identical to the successful and larger http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedora19tc3-KDEinstsum.png installation. 'Available space' is *unpartitioned* space, not 'partitions that happen to be empty'. Anaconda isn't about to assume it can just go ahead and stick itself in any partition which doesn't currently contain any data. That does not seem like a sensible thing to do. If you want to re-use an existing partition, you have to tell anaconda that's what you want to do. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 2013-06-14 09:59 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: 'Available space' is *unpartitioned* space, not 'partitions that happen to be empty'. Anaconda isn't about to assume it can just go ahead and stick itself in any partition which doesn't currently contain any data. That does not seem like a sensible thing to do. Absolutely. If you want to re-use an existing partition, you have to tell anaconda that's what you want to do. That's a part I can't figure out about Anaconda. To me the natural thing to do is specify one as a mount point. So far I've been unable to figure out how that's done without having first before starting Anaconda put a filesystem on it. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 14:01 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: On 2013-06-14 09:59 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: 'Available space' is *unpartitioned* space, not 'partitions that happen to be empty'. Anaconda isn't about to assume it can just go ahead and stick itself in any partition which doesn't currently contain any data. That does not seem like a sensible thing to do. Absolutely. If you want to re-use an existing partition, you have to tell anaconda that's what you want to do. That's a part I can't figure out about Anaconda. To me the natural thing to do is specify one as a mount point. So far I've been unable to figure out how that's done without having first before starting Anaconda put a filesystem on it. I put that in my other email, at least as far as I could based on my understanding. 'Mount point' is just an element of the partition's properties on the right hand side of custom partitioning. I think it's greyed out in your screenshot because you did not yet specify a filesystem for the partition. As I wrote in my other mail, I think all you need to do is set the filesystem drop down and then the mount point text entry. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 2013-06-14 09:57 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 05:24 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: it seems pretty clear to me what you should have done at the point of http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-06parts-0768.png : changed the 'File System' drop down Yup, now after catching up on sleep I see it. But, time and again the eyestrain apparently caused me to be fooled by its appearance. That barely visible (gray on gray mousetype) select list is at least 6 times as wide as the name of any filesystem type I can think of. to whatever you wanted to use (ext4, whatever) and then entered / for the 'Mount Point'. That ought to have been sufficient. All you've done in the screenshot is tell anaconda to reformat the partition: you haven't told it you actually want to *use* it for anything. Mount point among the input fields appears above everything except (the inexplicably present input field:) device name (duplicating the larger bolder device name above it to left). One should be able to fill it in at any time, including (logically top to bottom) first. Whatever is prerequisite to other should be above other. 'Add Mount Point' is for creating a new partition, and 'configure selected mount point' is only going to work for a partition that has been assigned a mount point. The way I remember this is that it's a circular problem not presented by such other installers as http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/mgaReadonly1s2.png (screen of nothing but choosing mount points) and http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Suse/yast2-04-expertPartChooseEdit0768.png (edit button under partitions list). Did you try, at any point, reading the documentation? The F18 Installation Guide did a rather good job of documenting how newUI works. Try, yes. Succeed, no. Attempts produce the likes of these: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-05parthelp-1200.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedoradocs03b.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedoradocs04b.png https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-June/116133.html http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/ has screenshots mostly of the installation process, in part because without them the problems have been too numerous to for me to be able to remember. My difficulty with Anaconda's wheel logic is compounded by the illegibility of its tiny gray text on gray background. If you're talking about http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-03destination-1024.png , it's not actually meant to be that small, I don't think. It doesn't look like that for me in VMs or on metal. What environment are you running the installer in, exactly? Hardware, switching between a 15 1024x768 LCD and a 19.8 visible CRT trying to discover a way to make everything legible. At the time I was trying to get a 1600x1200 screenshot of Anaconda from the installed F19 system, lack of configured installation sources prevented it. So, as a substitute I created http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-08softselect-1200-120.png which is an excellent contextual showing of actual text sizes encountered on the CRT with either resolution='1600x1200' on cmdline, or no gfx config params specified on cmdline. NAICT, the smaller text being used is 9px, or roughly 25% of comfortable to read if black on white rather than gray on gray. On the CRT, besides being tiny, its all _very_ muddy looking compared to looking at the same image on a 20 1600x1200 LCD. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 15:40 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: On 2013-06-14 09:57 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 05:24 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: it seems pretty clear to me what you should have done at the point of http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-06parts-0768.png : changed the 'File System' drop down Yup, now after catching up on sleep I see it. But, time and again the eyestrain apparently caused me to be fooled by its appearance. That barely visible (gray on gray mousetype) select list is at least 6 times as wide as the name of any filesystem type I can think of. You probably can't think of them all...;) to whatever you wanted to use (ext4, whatever) and then entered / for the 'Mount Point'. That ought to have been sufficient. All you've done in the screenshot is tell anaconda to reformat the partition: you haven't told it you actually want to *use* it for anything. Mount point among the input fields appears above everything except (the inexplicably present input field:) device name (duplicating the larger bolder device name above it to left). One should be able to fill it in at any time, including (logically top to bottom) first. Well, no, because it's not a legitimate operation to assign a mount point to a partition that is set to contain no filesystem. It can't be mounted. Why should the configuration be allowed? If anaconda let you do this, you could then complete custom part with a partition given a mount point, but not containing a filesystem: what are you expecting anaconda to do in this case? Write a nonsensical fstab? Implement an error condition on trying to complete custom partitioning in this situation? Why is that better than just not allowing a mount point to be set in the first place until a filesystem is set? Whatever is prerequisite to other should be above other. I'm not a UI expert, so I don't know if this is an accepted principle of UI design. Might be good to ask Mo about. 'Add Mount Point' is for creating a new partition, and 'configure selected mount point' is only going to work for a partition that has been assigned a mount point. The way I remember this is that it's a circular problem not presented by such other installers as http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/mgaReadonly1s2.png (screen of nothing but choosing mount points) and http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Suse/yast2-04-expertPartChooseEdit0768.png (edit button under partitions list). Did you try, at any point, reading the documentation? The F18 Installation Guide did a rather good job of documenting how newUI works. Try, yes. Succeed, no. Attempts produce the likes of these: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-05parthelp-1200.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedoradocs03b.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/fedoradocs04b.png https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-June/116133.html Well, yes, and so far as I can tell, everyone else in the universe is still of the opinion that your obstinate refusal to read any web page which doesn't meet your beliefs about how web font rendering ought to work is absurd. We know you have Strong Opinions. It is known. But you appear to be bending over backwards in order to shoot yourself in the heel by simply refusing to read the instructions on the installer because of this entirely ancillary issue, when there are literally dozens of ways in which you could do it at the font size you like: use the brower's font size controls, download the PDF of the instructions and use a PDF reader's font size controls, copy and paste the text into _any other app you like_ and control the fonts sizes...I don't think you're going to get a lot of sympathy with that approach, I'm afraid. http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/ has screenshots mostly of the installation process, in part because without them the problems have been too numerous to for me to be able to remember. My difficulty with Anaconda's wheel logic is compounded by the illegibility of its tiny gray text on gray background. If you're talking about http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-03destination-1024.png , it's not actually meant to be that small, I don't think. It doesn't look like that for me in VMs or on metal. What environment are you running the installer in, exactly? Hardware, switching between a 15 1024x768 LCD and a 19.8 visible CRT trying to discover a way to make everything legible. At the time I was trying to get a 1600x1200 screenshot of Anaconda from the installed F19 system, lack of configured installation sources prevented it. So, as a substitute I created http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-08softselect-1200-120.png which is an excellent contextual showing of actual text sizes encountered on the CRT with either resolution='1600x1200' on cmdline, or no gfx config params specified on cmdline. NAICT, the smaller text being used is 9px, or roughly 25% of comfortable to
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 2013-06-14 12:53 (GMT-0700) Adam Williamson composed: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 15:40 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: Hardware, switching between a 15 1024x768 LCD and a 19.8 visible CRT trying to discover a way to make everything legible. At the time I was trying to get a 1600x1200 screenshot of Anaconda from the installed F19 system, lack of configured installation sources prevented it. So, as a substitute I created http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-08softselect-1200-120.png which is an excellent contextual showing of actual text sizes encountered on the CRT with either resolution='1600x1200' on cmdline, or no gfx config params specified on cmdline. NAICT, the smaller text being used is 9px, or roughly 25% of comfortable to read if black on white rather than gray on gray. On the CRT, besides being tiny, its all _very_ muddy looking compared to looking at the same image on a 20 1600x1200 LCD. Once I zoom in on your screenshot, it does actually look roughly like the installer looks in my VMs. I don't have any trouble reading that text at all. Among the many other complaints other people have raised about the installer, I don't recall one other person complaining about text being too small. Do you think people in the business of developing software or otherwise using a PC for most of any given work day are people whose vision is below average? I don't. I think quite the opposite, that those with poorer than average vision gravitate away from using a PC screen any more than they must, that many won't do it at all, and that few such people pursue occupations that require doing more than a little that requires using a PC. Net result is most in the puter business, including FOSS software testers, have both better than average vision, and more importantly, little or no understanding of or appreciation for the difficulties encountered by those who see less well. People aren't complaining because the people doing are almost entirely made up of a class of people with good vision, people who do it because they don't have undue visual obstacles to doing it. Imagine Joe's going to buy a PC with a bigger display than his old PC used. Why bigger? Does he: A-want more stuff to fit on his virtual desktop? B-want the same stuff on his virtual desktop to be bigger? C-want some of both A and B? There is a considerable practical problem with making the text in the installer any larger, which is that we'd wind up with far more 'all the bits don't fit in the screen and the rendering is corrupt' bugs: we already have problems with multiple spokes in multiple languages at 800x600, which are rather hard to fix. http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anaconda19tc3-01welcome-1200-096.png demonstrates several characteristics that cause legibility problems with current Anaconda: 1-descriptive smaller text is (reduced contrast) gray, not black 2-font used is apparently Cantarell, which is a relatively diminutive physical size for its nominal size compared to the more commonly used, and Fedora configured system-wide default, DejaVu Sans 3-X DPI is forced to 96, which on the higher density 1600x1200 screen installation and image were made on is in error by making everything 18.75% shorter and narrower physically than its nominal size 4-nominal font size is 10pt, which in every legitimate web usability report I've read is the recommended minimum size ever be used on the web, and then only when other factors that reduce legibility are not present 5-Even its headings have shorter apparent x-height than default size and family desktop UI text http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fedora/anasoft0768v1200.jpg shows a 15 1024x768 LCD with closest face point vertically aligned with closest face point of below 19.8 CRT with preferred resolution 1600x1200. The former is 85.3 DPI, the latter 101, or 18.4% (nominally) denser. In the image, the top of the CRT frame has 4 blocks of 7 rows of X Window System with a choice of window manager in sizes 6pt through 12pt. Those words in the LCD measure 94mm wide. The same in the CRT measure 80mm wide. Using width as the gauge of text size, the smaller display has (nominally) 17.5% bigger text. Based on the line lengths of 11pt 12pt in the printed Cantarell block, those 94mm 1024x768 lines are about 11.6pt. Based on the line length of 10pt in the printed Cantarell block, those 80mm 1600x1200 lines are about 9.875pt, which would be closer to exactly 10pt on a 20 1600x1200 LCD. To sum up, the 15 display is rendering text that is nominally 16%/34.6% physically bigger than the text on the nominally 33%/77.8% physically bigger display. So, if Joe is a type A guy, there is a reasonable chance Joe will be happy getting so much more onto the bigger screen. Maybe he won't, if yet more but smaller stuff to go along with it isn't expected or appreciated. OTOH, if Joe is a type C guy, there's a virtual certainty he's not happy that everything is so much smaller on his
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Jun 12, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2013-06-12 at 06:19 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 19:25:29 -0700 Adam Williamson wrote: It is very useful if you want to be absolutely sure that a given disk will not be used at all But a option in the tree view to say Protect this disk from any changes would work as well, and also give you the opportunity to actually identify the disk by what partitions are on it. I would like to take one more shot at the 'Done' button for F20 Actually, just calling it Next instead of Done would help a lot to provide some hope that you might eventually get to select partitions :-). Like I said, that's exactly what it was labeled before, and people didn't like that either (check F18). No, for F18's Destination Installation page, there was a Continue button on the lower right hand side. People have always been complaining about the Done button in the upper left hand corner, which has been there since F18. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3253801/F18_installationdestination.png For F19, the Continue button is removed, leaving only the ill advised Done button. Just because I've chosen destination devices doesn't mean I'm done with this spoke, and further specifying how those devices are to be used and exactly where Fedora is to be located. Yet the UI implies upon choosing a physical device I can only be done. I consider it a regression. Chris Murphy -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 12.06.2013 09:00, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2013-06-12 at 00:27 -0500, John Morris wrote: On Mon, 2013-06-10 at 19:09 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: You are 'Done' picking disks, though, and there's a big chunk of text on the screen saying They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's Begin Installation button. So I'm not sure it's really that scary now. Why not label the button Next to more clearly indicate that this isn't a final step, that there are more selections to be made. Shouldn't damage the Fung Shui of the screen too badly. I'm pretty sure that's what it was labelled before...when people complained about it. This discussion shows that going with hub-spoke model in Anaconda is not so awesome idea as it seemed to be. I'm not saying that old wizard was better than this new UI but certainly, new hub-spoke model needs very careful design and naming. For me it was also surprising that I'm done with partitioning before I've even touched anything. I think that additional Next button is the best option at the moment. For F20 bigger redesign might be required. Mateusz Marzantowicz -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Thu, 2013-06-13 at 23:40 +0200, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: On 12.06.2013 09:00, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2013-06-12 at 00:27 -0500, John Morris wrote: On Mon, 2013-06-10 at 19:09 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: You are 'Done' picking disks, though, and there's a big chunk of text on the screen saying They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's Begin Installation button. So I'm not sure it's really that scary now. Why not label the button Next to more clearly indicate that this isn't a final step, that there are more selections to be made. Shouldn't damage the Fung Shui of the screen too badly. I'm pretty sure that's what it was labelled before...when people complained about it. This discussion shows that going with hub-spoke model in Anaconda is not so awesome idea as it seemed to be. Well, no, it shows that there's a small issue in one area of a huge application. I don't understand why people persist in reasoning from small issues to huge conclusions. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
With vintage Anaconda installers I was able to select existing partitions and give them mount paths without reformatting, or use an existing partition for a nre root or swap area. This doesn't seem possible with the current Anaconda. I partially work around the problem by saving fstab entries made by the last good Anaconda several versions ago. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/13/2013 03:23 PM, Gavin Flower wrote: On 14/06/13 09:40, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: On 12.06.2013 09:00, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2013-06-12 at 00:27 -0500, John Morris wrote: On Mon, 2013-06-10 at 19:09 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: You are 'Done' picking disks, though, and there's a big chunk of text on the screen saying They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's Begin Installation button. So I'm not sure it's really that scary now. Why not label the button Next to more clearly indicate that this isn't a final step, that there are more selections to be made. Shouldn't damage the Fung Shui of the screen too badly. I'm pretty sure that's what it was labelled before...when people complained about it. This discussion shows that going with hub-spoke model in Anaconda is not so awesome idea as it seemed to be. I'm not saying that old wizard was better than this new UI but certainly, new hub-spoke model needs very careful design and naming. For me it was also surprising that I'm done with partitioning before I've even touched anything. I think that additional Next button is the best option at the moment. For F20 bigger redesign might be required. Mateusz Marzantowicz I think it would be a very good idea to be able to systematically check, change settings if necessary- so some way of it systematically presenting the spokes would be good (in this aspect, the old way was better). I know I keep forgetting to set the correct tome zone! Who lives in New York? 'Everybody' I know lives in Auckland! I think it would probably be better _NOT_ to set a default time zone - joking aside, most people do not live in New York. Cheers, Gavin Let the time zone Linus lives in and make that the default. As for the rest, let them eat cake. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Thu, 2013-06-13 at 15:16 -0700, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote: With vintage Anaconda installers I was able to select existing partitions and give them mount paths without reformatting, or use an existing partition for a nre root or swap area. This doesn't seem possible with the current Anaconda. I partially work around the problem by saving fstab entries made by the last good Anaconda several versions ago. It's perfectly possible. All existing partitions are shown in the tree view on the left hand side of custom partitioning. You can select one and assign a mount point to it on the right hand side, and choose whether or not to reformat it. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 10:23 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: I think it would be a very good idea to be able to systematically check, change settings if necessary - so some way of it systematically presenting the spokes would be good (in this aspect, the old way was better). I know I keep forgetting to set the correct tome zone! Who lives in New York? 'Everybody' I know lives in Auckland! I think it would probably be better _NOT_ to set a default time zone - joking aside, most people do not live in New York. Since Final TC1 or so, it now tries to pick the correct timezone by geolocation. It seems pretty accurate from the results reported so far. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 10:57 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: On 14/06/13 10:43, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 10:23 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: I think it would be a very good idea to be able to systematically check, change settings if necessary - so some way of it systematically presenting the spokes would be good (in this aspect, the old way was better). I know I keep forgetting to set the correct tome zone! Who lives in New York? 'Everybody' I know lives in Auckland! I think it would probably be better _NOT_ to set a default time zone - joking aside, most people do not live in New York. Since Final TC1 or so, it now tries to pick the correct timezone by geolocation. It seems pretty accurate from the results reported so far. Well I am physically in Auckland, New Zealand - but I may have an IPv4 address associated with Christchurch, New Zealand (blame my ISP!). Either way, I am definitely not in New York! Possibly, people should be given an option to either confirm or to change? Are you actually testing with a Final TC, or with Beta? Is your network coming up at the start of install? You do have the option 'to either confirm or change', I mean, that's what the spoke is for. If you don't go into the spoke, that's your own problem. It makes a hub and spoke design pretty meaningless if we force everyone to go into all the spokes. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/14/13 06:57, Gavin Flower wrote: On 14/06/13 10:43, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 10:23 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: I think it would be a very good idea to be able to systematically check, change settings if necessary - so some way of it systematically presenting the spokes would be good (in this aspect, the old way was better). I know I keep forgetting to set the correct tome zone! Who lives in New York? 'Everybody' I know lives in Auckland! I think it would probably be better _NOT_ to set a default time zone - joking aside, most people do not live in New York. Since Final TC1 or so, it now tries to pick the correct timezone by geolocation. It seems pretty accurate from the results reported so far. Well I am physically in Auckland, New Zealand- but I may have an IPv4 address associated with Christchurch, New Zealand (blame my ISP!). Either way, I am definitely not in New York! Possibly, people should be given an option to either confirm or to change? Ahhh There certainly is the option to change... On theInstallation Summary page there is a Date Time option to change it Anyway, what do you get when you go to this URL (no trailing slashes) https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city or https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city?ip=18.0.0.1Where you replace the IP address with your public IP address. -- The only thing worse than a poorly asked question is a cryptic answer. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 11:14 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: If you forget to go into the spoke, it just takes the default. Well, yeah, of course it does. That's not exactly a disaster; you can change it any time after install, after all. You have to remember to check all the spokes. If you had to go in to confirm, then it would be better. Well, no it wouldn't, because it'd be useless make-work for everyone for whom the geolocation works fine. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/14/13 07:14, Gavin Flower wrote: I am using TC3, and my network is up. So, what do you get with https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city or https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city?ip=18.0.0.1Where you replace the IP address with your public IP address. -- The only thing worse than a poorly asked question is a cryptic answer. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 14/06/13 11:08, Ed Greshko wrote:
On 06/14/13 06:57, Gavin Flower wrote:
On 14/06/13 10:43, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 10:23 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote:
I think it would be a very good idea to be able to systematically check,
change settings if necessary - so some way of it systematically presenting the
spokes would be good (in this aspect, the old way was better). I know I keep
forgetting to set the correct tome zone! Who lives in New York? 'Everybody' I know
lives in Auckland! I think it would probably be better _NOT_ to set a default time
zone - joking aside, most people do not live in New York.
Since Final TC1 or so, it now tries to pick the correct timezone by
geolocation. It seems pretty accurate from the results reported so far.
Well I am physically in Auckland, New Zealand- but I may have an IPv4 address
associated with Christchurch, New Zealand (blame my ISP!). Either way, I am
definitely not in New York!
Possibly, people should be given an option to either confirm or to change?
Ahhh There certainly is the option to change... On theInstallation Summary page there
is a Date Time option to change it
Anyway, what do you get when you go to this URL (no trailing slashes)
https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city
or
https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city?ip=18.0.0.1Where you replace the
IP address with your public IP address.
{region_name: Auckland, area_code: 0, latitude: -36.86669921875,
region: E7, dma_code: 0, country_name: New Zealand,
postal_code: null, city: Auckland, longitude:
174.76669311523438, time_zone: Pacific/Auckland, metro_code: 0,
country_code: NZ, country_code3: NZL}
Interesting. A couple of years ago, an online map put us in Christchurch.
However, the F19 TC3 installer gave me a time zone of New York!
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Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/14/13 08:08, Gavin Flower wrote:
On 14/06/13 11:08, Ed Greshko wrote:
Ahhh There certainly is the option to change... On theInstallation
Summary page there is a Date Time option to change it
Anyway, what do you get when you go to this URL (no trailing slashes)
https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city
or
https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city?ip=18.0.0.1Where you replace
the IP address with your public IP address.
{region_name: Auckland, area_code: 0, latitude: -36.86669921875,
region: E7, dma_code: 0, country_name: New Zealand, postal_code:
null, city: Auckland, longitude: 174.76669311523438, time_zone:
Pacific/Auckland, metro_code: 0, country_code: NZ, country_code3:
NZL}
Interesting. A couple of years ago, an online map put us in Christchurch.
However, the F19 TC3 installer gave me a time zone of New York
Kind of sounds like your network isn't really up.
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Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 12:28 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: Well, I configured the wireless network prior to get to the installation summary with all the spokes in the previous screen, and it correctly got the assigned host name IPv4 address. So I asumed the network was up. Also from that point on, I did nothing explicit to do with networks, and I has able to ssh in after reboot! Could be a bug with the geoloc stuff in the case where you need the pre-hub network screen, I guess. Does the network config screen come up *before* or *after* the Welcome screen? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 12:39 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: On 14/06/13 12:31, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2013-06-14 at 12:28 +1200, Gavin Flower wrote: Well, I configured the wireless network prior to get to the installation summary with all the spokes in the previous screen, and it correctly got the assigned host name IPv4 address. So I asumed the network was up. Also from that point on, I did nothing explicit to do with networks, and I has able to ssh in after reboot! Could be a bug with the geoloc stuff in the case where you need the pre-hub network screen, I guess. Does the network config screen come up *before* or *after* the Welcome screen? The welcome screen comes up first: WELCOME TO FEDORA 19-TC3. Ah. Well then obviously it can't guess your language based on your location at that point, as you haven't configured the network yet. This seems reasonable - it's probably better to do it this way around than the other (which would make the geoloc work, but require people to navigate the network spoke in English first). If it doesn't re-do the geoloc stuff to get the timezone at least correct after you complete the network screen, though, that could be considered a bug. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/14/13 08:28, Gavin Flower wrote: Well, I configured the wireless network prior to get to the installation summary with all the spokes in the previous screen, and it correctly got the assigned host name IPv4 address. So I asumed the network was up. Also from that point on, I did nothing explicit to do with networks, and I has able to ssh in after reboot! Ahhh wirelessI only tested a wireless install one time and recall there was a problem in that area. Didn't go back and investigate or file a bugzilla. :-( Maybe you should at this point. -- The only thing worse than a poorly asked question is a cryptic answer. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Jun 13, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Ed Greshko ed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: https://geoip.stg.fedoraproject.org/city How is this working? With a WiFi access point MAC address entered into Skyhook it has the location within +/- 20 feet from the actual location. But the lat/long from the URL above is about 1.5 miles off. I mean, that's probably fine for the purposes of setting the date/time unless I'm precariously close to a boundary (which I'm not), but the sigfigs used in the lat/long from the URL is ~17. That's a level of precision about the size of a gnat's ass. So, for that level of precision it seems like it needs to be more accurate. Chris Murphy -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 14/06/13 12:57, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/14/13 08:28, Gavin Flower wrote: Well, I configured the wireless network prior to get to the installation summary with all the spokes in the previous screen, and it correctly got the assigned host name IPv4 address. So I asumed the network was up. Also from that point on, I did nothing explicit to do with networks, and I has able to ssh in after reboot! Ahhh wirelessI only tested a wireless install one time and recall there was a problem in that area. Didn't go back and investigate or file a bugzilla. :-( Maybe you should at this point. see: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=974346 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Wed, 2013-06-12 at 00:27 -0500, John Morris wrote: On Mon, 2013-06-10 at 19:09 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: You are 'Done' picking disks, though, and there's a big chunk of text on the screen saying They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's Begin Installation button. So I'm not sure it's really that scary now. Why not label the button Next to more clearly indicate that this isn't a final step, that there are more selections to be made. Shouldn't damage the Fung Shui of the screen too badly. I'm pretty sure that's what it was labelled before...when people complained about it. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 19:25:29 -0700 Adam Williamson wrote: It is very useful if you want to be absolutely sure that a given disk will not be used at all But a option in the tree view to say Protect this disk from any changes would work as well, and also give you the opportunity to actually identify the disk by what partitions are on it. I would like to take one more shot at the 'Done' button for F20 Actually, just calling it Next instead of Done would help a lot to provide some hope that you might eventually get to select partitions :-). -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Wed, 2013-06-12 at 06:19 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 19:25:29 -0700 Adam Williamson wrote: It is very useful if you want to be absolutely sure that a given disk will not be used at all But a option in the tree view to say Protect this disk from any changes would work as well, and also give you the opportunity to actually identify the disk by what partitions are on it. I would like to take one more shot at the 'Done' button for F20 Actually, just calling it Next instead of Done would help a lot to provide some hope that you might eventually get to select partitions :-). Like I said, that's exactly what it was labeled before, and people didn't like that either (check F18). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:09:02 -0700 Adam Williamson wrote: Actually, just calling it Next instead of Done would help a lot to provide some hope that you might eventually get to select partitions :-). Like I said, that's exactly what it was labeled before, and people didn't like that either (check F18). I'm pretty sure the interface I would find most useful that should also solve the problem of protecting disks is this: Go directly to a tree of disks and partitions and free space. The disks are all locked. They probably have a lock icon next to them. You can do readonly operations on locked disks, but not clobber anything. The tree contains a comment field out to the side which can include things like the kernel installed on that partition, the label of that parition, etc. Or for disks the model and serial number. But kernels are not roots of trees (that is just utter nonsense). You have to unlock a disk first to be able to reformat or delete partitions and use free space. So now there are no extra screens to go through on a hope and a prayer and disks are protected unless you unlock them. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Wed, 2013-06-12 at 12:20 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 09:09:02 -0700 Adam Williamson wrote: Actually, just calling it Next instead of Done would help a lot to provide some hope that you might eventually get to select partitions :-). Like I said, that's exactly what it was labeled before, and people didn't like that either (check F18). I'm pretty sure the interface I would find most useful that should also solve the problem of protecting disks is this: Go directly to a tree of disks and partitions and free space. The disks are all locked. They probably have a lock icon next to them. You can do readonly operations on locked disks, but not clobber anything. The tree contains a comment field out to the side which can include things like the kernel installed on that partition, the label of that parition, etc. Or for disks the model and serial number. But kernels are not roots of trees (that is just utter nonsense). You have to unlock a disk first to be able to reformat or delete partitions and use free space. So now there are no extra screens to go through on a hope and a prayer and disks are protected unless you unlock them. That's a complete re-design of partitioning, and way beyond the scope we're talking about here. I doubt the anaconda team would go with that idea, but anyway, you'd need to propose that as a complete partitioning workflow re-design, with justifications and mockups and etc etc, not just in a test@ thread. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:43:35 -0700, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote: Quite a lot of people have said they find the current layout a bit confusing, but then, we tried two other layouts before this one and people found both of those confusing too. At this point we are running out of possibilities, but perhaps we could label the button 'Unicorn' and have it orbit the screen randomly. That would at least be different. =) Relabel the DONE button to SELECTION COMPLETED or something else that is not ambiguous. [Click here] -- SCNR, mschwendt Fedora release 19 (Schrödinger’s Cat) - Linux 3.9.4-301.fc19.x86_64 loadavg: 0.13 0.04 0.05 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Tue, 2013-06-11 at 08:01 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:43:35 -0700, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote: Quite a lot of people have said they find the current layout a bit confusing, but then, we tried two other layouts before this one and people found both of those confusing too. At this point we are running out of possibilities, but perhaps we could label the button 'Unicorn' and have it orbit the screen randomly. That would at least be different. =) Relabel the DONE button to SELECTION COMPLETED or something else that is not ambiguous. [Click here] Well it's certainly not *ambiguous*, I'll give it that... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:09:47 -0700 Adam Williamson wrote: They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's Begin Installation button. Yea, but then what happens? You still have no idea. we tried two other layouts before this one and people found both of those confusing too How about just starting directly in a screen listing all the disks and partitions in a tree? I've never understood what good the select disks step is (especially if I have a pair of identical disks in the system I can't possibly distinguish between unless I have the serial numbers memorized :-). -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Tue, 2013-06-11 at 06:27 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:09:47 -0700 Adam Williamson wrote: They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's Begin Installation button. Yea, but then what happens? You still have no idea. It ought to make it pretty clear that it's safe to just go ahead and click 'Done' and see what happens. we tried two other layouts before this one and people found both of those confusing too How about just starting directly in a screen listing all the disks and partitions in a tree? I've never understood what good the select disks step is (especially if I have a pair of identical disks in the system I can't possibly distinguish between unless I have the serial numbers memorized :-). It is very useful if you want to be absolutely sure that a given disk will not be used at all, without using custom partitioning. We don't want to show everyone in the world a treeview of disks and partitions. In fact we don't want to show anyone a treeview of disks and partitions, because for everyone but those of us who've been looking at tree views of disks and partitions long enough that we have Stockholm Syndrome, it's a horrible and incomprehensible interface. And remember, it's 2013, we don't just care about partitions any more. We have RAID sets, LVM containers and btrfs containers to worry about. The newUI storage workflow is pretty clearly defined: pick some disks (or network storage devices or whatever), then pick what to do with their contents. I would like to take one more shot at the 'Done' button for F20, and I do think there are some issues with how the 'Installation Options' dialog behaves in complex cases, but overall I think the workflow is pretty good in F19, and once you're used to it, if you go back to F17, it seems like a mess. At least, it does to me. I don't really _enjoy_ creating LVM layouts or software RAID sets from scratch, the partition-by-partition way... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
F19 Installer a little better, but...
...I'm still filled with trepidation when the only choice I appear to have is to click Done after selecting a disk to install on. I'm not Done :-). I want to pick partitions to install on, etc, but there is absolutely no indication you will have that chance unless you actually work up the nerve to click Done then see that you are provided additional options. (So apparently even anaconda doesn't think you are Done). -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On Mon, 2013-06-10 at 21:23 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: ...I'm still filled with trepidation when the only choice I appear to have is to click Done after selecting a disk to install on. I'm not Done :-). I want to pick partitions to install on, etc, but there is absolutely no indication you will have that chance unless you actually work up the nerve to click Done then see that you are provided additional options. (So apparently even anaconda doesn't think you are Done). You are 'Done' picking disks, though, and there's a big chunk of text on the screen saying They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's Begin Installation button. So I'm not sure it's really that scary now. Quite a lot of people have said they find the current layout a bit confusing, but then, we tried two other layouts before this one and people found both of those confusing too. At this point we are running out of possibilities, but perhaps we could label the button 'Unicorn' and have it orbit the screen randomly. That would at least be different. =) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: F19 Installer a little better, but...
On 06/10/2013 07:09 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2013-06-10 at 21:23 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: ...I'm still filled with trepidation when the only choice I appear to have is to click Done after selecting a disk to install on. I'm not Done :-). I want to pick partitions to install on, etc, but there is absolutely no indication you will have that chance unless you actually work up the nerve to click Done then see that you are provided additional options. (So apparently even anaconda doesn't think you are Done). You are 'Done' picking disks, though, and there's a big chunk of text on the screen saying They will be left untouched until you click on the main menu's Begin Installation button. So I'm not sure it's really that scary now. Quite a lot of people have said they find the current layout a bit confusing, but then, we tried two other layouts before this one and people found both of those confusing too. At this point we are running out of possibilities, but perhaps we could label the button 'Unicorn' and have it orbit the screen randomly. That would at least be different. =) Relabel the DONE button to SELECTION COMPLETED or something else that is not ambiguous. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
