[Texascavers] Snowy River flowing once more :

[JerryAtkin]

Scientists Say Snowy River Flowing  Again
Associated Press 07.23.07, 6:15 PM  ET  


Fort Stanton, NM - A sparkling subterranean crystalline calcite formation  
known as Snowy River is no longer a dry riverbed. Scientists say Snowy River,  
discovered in 2001, is now running with between a half-foot to a 
foot-and-a-half  of water. 
The formation, which is not open to the public, was discovered by a U.S.  
Bureau of Land Management team led by veteran speleologist John McLean of  
Colorado. The passage, which looks like a river of snow surrounded by walls of  
brown clay and black manganese dioxide deposits, stretches more than 2 miles  
from 
a passage in Fort Stanton Cave. 
Water originally carved a channel in the clay and gravel, then eventually  
filled it with brilliant white calcite. In some places, the ceiling soars up to 
 
40 feet; in others it's down to 16 inches. 
Scientists believe the last time water flowed in the Snowy River formation  
may have been 150 years ago. 
The flowing water, coupled with a recently completed safer entrance, will  
allow researchers to do more studies, Penny Boston, associate director of the  
National Cave and Karst Research Institute in Carlsbad and director of the cave 
 and karst studies program at New Mexico Tech, said in a news release Monday. 
Researchers at New Mexico Tech, the state Bureau of Geology and Mineral  
Resources, the University of New Mexico and the National Cave and Karst 
Research  
Institute have already discovered aspects of Snowy River's age, hydrology,  
exotic manganese-eating microorganisms and antibiotic-producing bacteria on the 
 
walls. 
Now they'll be able to study the cave's active hydrology and its relationship 
 to surface water sources, to continue to look for unique microorganisms that 
 could have potential uses as antibiotics or novel enzymes and to do 
paleoclimate  studies that are critical to managing water resources in the face 
of 
future  climate change, she said. 
The water flowing in Snowy River means cave and karst scientists will be able 
 to compare water chemistry and environmental tracers between Snowy River and 
 surface water streams and springs to determine the source and fate of Snowy  
River's water. 
"It is critical to understand the hydrology of such regions of our state  
because the quality and quantity of our precious water resources depends on 
such  
knowledge," Boston said. 
Cave stalactites and stalagmites, as well as the Snowy River calcite,  
preserve geochemical traces of the past climate, she said. 
"This insight is critical in helping us understand our present climate and  
predict what our statewide and global climate future may be in an era of  
anticipated changing world climate," Boston said. 
The route first used into the formation was too hazardous, and in 2004, the  
BLM closed access until a safer route could be found. BLM volunteers finished  
digging a safer opening on June 30. 
Access will continue to be limited to scientific researchers. 
Snowy River is the largest single calcite formation known anywhere at more  
than 2 miles in length. Scientists expect more to be found with future  
exploration. 
_http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/23/ap3942927.html_ 
(http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/23/ap3942927.html) 



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[Texascavers] NSS Conv. Report # 8

[Don Arburn]

I am at Groad Hollow sitting around  the campfire and using Mr.  
Arburn's iPhone.


Today I toured the commercial cave "Bluesprings Cavern."

Troglobitic crawfish are very
common on the tour.

The aluminum flat bottom boat
takes you upstream and then
back downstream.

The depth of the stream ranges
from 2 ft. to 20 ft., but mostly
4 ft.

The tour only covers 5 % of the
cave.



David Locklear




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[Texascavers] Blind Cave Fish in Indiana

[Minton, Mark]

  Geary Schindel said:

>You may also get a chance to see some real blind fish.

  On Monday we went on a wetsuit trip in Whistling Cave in Spring Mill 
State Park, about an hour north of the NSS Convention.  The cave has more 
troglobites than any I've seen north of Mexico.  We counted over 40 blind fish 
and even more blind crayfish (lost count).  Many pools had several of each.  We 
got a cool photo of a blind fish swimming past a blind crayfish sitting on the 
bottom of the pool.  There must be a _lot_ of food washing into that cave.

Mark Minton

[Texascavers] RE: Lee Florea

[Jim Kennedy]

Lee is definately at Convention.
 
-- Crash (also at Convention)



From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Tue 7/24/2007 4:35 PM
To: cavera...@aol.com; gi...@att.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Terra Rossa, anyone?



Roger,

 

Good idea, Lee has experience in Florida and in Kentucky so it would be 
interesting to see what he thinks.  However, I would suspect that he's at 
convention.

Re: [Texascavers] Terra Rossa, anyone? 2

[CaverArch]

 
 
gi...@att.net writes:

Again,  this is business too tricky for us mere dabblers to be dabbling in 
with any  authority.



I agree, certainly as far as "with any authority" goes.  But it  probably 
does little harm as long as the dabblers like me are taken with a large  enough 
grain of salt that we don't spread serious misinformation.  It's fun  to sit 
back, watch, and learn something when the real authorities like  Geary or Lee 
(who is indeed probably at Convention) take the discussion.  
 
David Locklear, take your Blackberry, go find Lee, and get us some  answers!
 
(Just kidding, David.  Thanks for raising some interesting questions  as well 
as giving the Convention blow-by-blow coverage!)
 
Roger 



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[Texascavers] Finding Secrets of Bats' Flight Could Change Military Aircraft

[Robert Tait]

Article from Boston Globe as reported in Mechanical Engineering Magazine.

http://www.memagazine.org/Story.html?story_id=108114727&ID=asme&scategory=Engineering&navStoryId=108161923:108118687:108114727:108112254:108109426:108107912:108099941:&numhl=7

."to the bat plane!".


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RE: [Texascavers] Terra Rossa, anyone? 2

[gille]

-- Original message --
From: "Geary Schindel" 
> This definition doesn't necessarily state that it's derived from
> limestone but we may be nitpicking.  Anyway, I've always thought that
> they are mostly found on limestones so you would think that they would
> be associated with the limestone weathering process.  However, I've had
> some pretty extensive discussions on the matter of Terra Rosa's in the
> Mammoth Cave area with Jim Quinlan, former Mammoth Cave Park Geologist
> about the soils and was surprised when he said that they were most
> likely derived from overlying material as there was insufficient
> insoluble material in the St. Genevieve Limestone to form the soils.  If
> that's the case, why are they red like every other limestone soil.

That all seems good up front. It seems that most (certainly not all) terra 
rossa has traditionally been associated with limestone by various sources. But 
perhaps their experience on a world scale is limited. Certainly not all 
limestone areas contain terra rossa--or at least it is not all red. Quinlan's 
assertion that its primary constituents came from the former overburden (some 
of it miles thick) seems to be too simple to have been missed by others. I 
would futher suggest that it could as easily have been transported hundreds of 
miles to the limestone either on the surface or underground where it was more 
or less trapped (lay in situ, at least) for some time within voids and was 
later exposed (and intensified or concentrated) through weathering. Or that the 
chemical composition of a particular limestone was capable of altering the 
chemical composition of a particular soil deposited on top of it--or vice 
versa. (I'm not proposing that, just suggesting that it could be as likely as 
any other speculation.) Further still, the shades and tones of redness (or lack 
of it) in the various soils and areas would almost certainly be attributed to 
"impurities" from the same or subsequent or even previous sources, in effect 
mechanically watering down or thinning of what is in some places very 
strikingly red soil--obvious terra rossa. The blackish clays and other 
sediments within most Texas caves definitely have enough or a red tint within 
them to leave white shirts pink, not gray, when washed after a caving trip. But 
a lot of the caves in Texas do have red mud--just not brilliantly red mud--and 
red soils can be found in non-limestone areas. Again, this is business too 
tricky for us mere dabblers to be dabbling in with any authority.

--Ediger 

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RE: [Texascavers] FW: Wind-powered robots--too cool

[Fritz Holt]

All of this talk of red soil and its causes is over my head, not being
an earth scientist. I remember vividly the red soil on my grandparents
farm near Kilgore and the surrounding area of East Texas. To my
knowledge there is no karst or caves in that immediate area. Is this
very red soil from clay, iron ore or what? It seems to grow sweet
potatoes and corn well. Just curious but not yellow.
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: gi...@att.net [mailto:gi...@att.net] 
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 5:26 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] FW: Wind-powered robots--too cool

 
-- Forwarded Message: --
From: Cheryl Jones 
To: siv...@listserv.vt.edu
Subject: Wind-powered robots
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:55:28 +
>
> Very cool!
> 
http://www.ministryoftech.com/2006/11/19/kinetic-sculptures-wind-powered
-robots/
> 
> Cheryl



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RE: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana? (UNCLASSIFIED)

[Geary Schindel]

You can also get pseudo karst forms in glacial tills which are quite
interesting.  I've been on glacial till covered with kettle holes which
you would are sinkholes but are actually formed from the melting of
large blocks of ice buried in the glacial till.

Neat stuff.

P.S. be careful not to confuse pseudo karst with Pseudomodo, a groupie
that dressed like Quasimodo but with the hump on the left side rather
than the more preferred right side - it must be getting late.

Geary 

-Original Message-
From: Pekins, Charles E CIV DPW ENV (PKI)
[mailto:charles.pek...@us.army.mil] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 4:24 PM
To: 'David Locklear'; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?
(UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED 
Caveats: NONE

Glacier demarcation lines are important for many reasons...karst wise,
you
can expect glacial cave fill, or even paleo-karst, if the feature is
located
where the glaciers advanced and retreated. 
 

-Original Message-
From: David Locklear [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:58 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

Can someone "briefly" explain the major difference between karst and
caves
of the Texas Hill Country and that of southern Indiana?

( in a few short paragraphs please )


In my opinion, most of the surface area around here looks like parts of
east
Texas just southwest of Texarkana.

I can't imagine there being caves here, but there are and they are
awesome.

What is so important about the glacier demarcation lines?

It seems like there are a lot of caves here where you travel upstream
from a
spring entrance and the cave then ends in breakdown beneath
a plugged sinkhole.   Why don't they open of the sinkholes and
have thru trips?Are there many thru trip caves here?"

There are so many caves here that cavers can't remember which one they
where
in.

Also, I have heard that some of the really small towns of the maps,
have different names used by the locals that live there.I know
for a fact that many of the roads are not marked and there are
very few signs to help a lost tourist.  I have a topo Atlas of
Indiana,
and it is a must have for anybody travelling down here, but you might
could
get by with good GPS navigation system.

I have learned that the Blue River is not really blue.  The only
good swimming hole so far that I have found was in the cave
that I went to.All the creeks and streams resemble
those in East Texas where we commonly have gators.
I don't like swimming with gators.

There appears to be only 2 things to do around here in southern
Indiana. Agricultural work and caving. After 15 minutes of
driving the Hoosier National Forest, I had had enough.I imagine
the locals go stir crazy.

David Locklear

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Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED 
Caveats: NONE

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RE: [Texascavers] Terra Rossa, anyone?

[Geary Schindel]

Roger,

 

Good idea, Lee has experience in Florida and in Kentucky so it would be
interesting to see what he thinks.  However, I would suspect that he's
at convention.

 

 

My dictionary of Geological Terms, Third Addition, prepared by the
American Geological Institute (1984) (guess I need to update it at GSA
this year) says

 

Def: Residual red clay mantling limestone bedrock Etymol: Italian "red
earth".

 

This definition doesn't necessarily state that it's derived from
limestone but we may be nitpicking.  Anyway, I've always thought that
they are mostly found on limestones so you would think that they would
be associated with the limestone weathering process.  However, I've had
some pretty extensive discussions on the matter of Terra Rosa's in the
Mammoth Cave area with Jim Quinlan, former Mammoth Cave Park Geologist
about the soils and was surprised when he said that they were most
likely derived from overlying material as there was insufficient
insoluble material in the St. Genevieve Limestone to form the soils.  If
that's the case, why are they red like every other limestone soil.  Of
course, I invoke Jim Quinlan because he is dead and can't argue back
(Trust me, he would if he could)

 

Interesting discussion.

 

We really need to get a soil scientist to pontificate on the issue.

 

Geary

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: cavera...@aol.com [mailto:cavera...@aol.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 4:09 PM
To: gi...@att.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Terra Rossa, anyone?

 

My cup runneth over with definitions, Gill!  And the definitions are all
pretty much in the sense that I recalled its usage about 35 years ago.  

 

I think I'll repost this whole thread onto the Florida list and see if
Lee Florea or some other Florida geologist will rise to the bait.

 

Roger 







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RE: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana? (UNCLASSIFIED )

[Pekins, Charles E CIV DPW ENV (PKI)]

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED 
Caveats: NONE

Glacier demarcation lines are important for many reasons...karst wise, you
can expect glacial cave fill, or even paleo-karst, if the feature is located
where the glaciers advanced and retreated. 
 

-Original Message-
From: David Locklear [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:58 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

Can someone "briefly" explain the major difference between karst and caves
of the Texas Hill Country and that of southern Indiana?

( in a few short paragraphs please )


In my opinion, most of the surface area around here looks like parts of east
Texas just southwest of Texarkana.

I can't imagine there being caves here, but there are and they are awesome.

What is so important about the glacier demarcation lines?

It seems like there are a lot of caves here where you travel upstream from a
spring entrance and the cave then ends in breakdown beneath
a plugged sinkhole.   Why don't they open of the sinkholes and
have thru trips?Are there many thru trip caves here?"

There are so many caves here that cavers can't remember which one they where
in.

Also, I have heard that some of the really small towns of the maps,
have different names used by the locals that live there.I know
for a fact that many of the roads are not marked and there are
very few signs to help a lost tourist.  I have a topo Atlas of Indiana,
and it is a must have for anybody travelling down here, but you might could
get by with good GPS navigation system.

I have learned that the Blue River is not really blue.  The only
good swimming hole so far that I have found was in the cave
that I went to.All the creeks and streams resemble
those in East Texas where we commonly have gators.
I don't like swimming with gators.

There appears to be only 2 things to do around here in southern
Indiana. Agricultural work and caving. After 15 minutes of
driving the Hoosier National Forest, I had had enough.I imagine
the locals go stir crazy.

David Locklear

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Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED 
Caveats: NONE

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Re: [Texascavers] Terra Rossa, anyone?

[CaverArch]

My cup runneth over with definitions, Gill!  And the  definitions are all 
pretty much in the sense that I recalled its usage  about 35 years ago.  
 
I think I'll repost this whole thread onto the Florida list and see if Lee  
Florea or some other Florida geologist will rise to the bait.
 
Roger 



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[Texascavers] Terra Rossa, anyone?

[gille]

-- Original message --
From: cavera...@aol.com
> But how do the red clays of the Florida and SW Georgia karst fit in?   I 
> don't think these clays are massively thick.  But more interestingly,  unless 
> they 
> are derived from elsewhere, I don't there was much of anything other  than 
> limestone of various ages present in this region.  

It has always been my understanding (admittedly marginally based) that just 
because a soil is "red" does not make it "terra rossa". If you've ever seen any 
real terra rossa you will recognize a definite difference--it is REALLY red. My 
"Glossary of Geographical Terms" (35 years out of date now and of British 
manufacture and some European bias) offers the following:

Terra rossa (Italian)
/Webster/, The red-colored residue from the weathering and partial soulution of 
certain rocks, especially limestone.

Mill, /Dict./ Terra Tossa. Red earth (Italy). The name has been extended to 
other regions.

/Soils and Men/, 1938. ;The term has been widely applied to red soils developed 
under the warm-temperate Mediterranean type of climate, marked by wet and dry 
seasons. Many writers have preferred to limit Terra Rossa to soils developed on 
Limestone, while some would have it include any red soil in a Mediterranean 
climateAt present its only distinction lies in it's color.'(p. 991)

Robinson, G. W., 1932, /Soils/, London: Murby, 'Terra rossa is a name given to 
red soil which oddurs commonly in the countries bordering the Mediterranean 
Sea. Typically it is associated with linestone...we follow A. Reifenberg in 
restricting the term to such soils.'(p. 287) 

Jacks, 1954. Red bbase-saturated clayey soil formed from hard limestone in the 
Mediterranean climate.

However:
Terra roxa (Brazil: Portuguese) pr. ro-shah.
James, 1959. �mong the soils of the Paran� Plateau, the /terra roxa/ (lit. 
purple soil) formed on the outcrops of the diabase...is a deep, porous soil 
containing considerable humus, which can be easily recognized by its dark 
reddish purple color--when wet it becomes so slippery and sticky that travel is 
very difficult, and in dry weather it gives off a powdery red dust which stains 
everything'(p. 474)
   (Note: Diabase is an igneous rock, not at all Limestone. Still, the soil was 
red.)

A Google search yielded:

ORIGIN OF ASSOCIATED TERRA ROSSA AND KARST BY REPLACEMENT
Authigenic terra rossa clay partly replaces limestone across a 9-cm-wide 
metasomatic reaction zone several feet below the earth's surface at 
Bloomington, ...
   

Genesis of a Terra Rossa soil over marble and the influence of a ...
The genesis of Terra Rossa soils is still a matter of controversy. The two 
leading theories are that (1) the soil is derived from the insoluble residue of 
...
  

Colloidal Silicic Acid in Terra Rossa
ACCORDING to Reifenberg1 colloidal silicic acid has an important role in the 
development of terra rossa. In order to substantiate this theory the existence 
...
 

SOURCES OF SILICATE DUST IN TERRA ROSSA SOILS AND SURFICIAL ...
Results show good correspondence between the clayey Terra Rossa soil horizons 
and nearby lunette deposits, indicating that the soil is largely derived from 
...
   

terra rossa (soil) -- Encyclopaedia Britannica
A distinctive feature of Montenegro is the accumulations of terra rossa in its 
coastal area. This red soil, a product of the weathering of dolomite and ...
   

And many more. Good reading

Wikipedia did not appear in the first 4 pages of hits.

I think the jury is still out,
--Ediger

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RE: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

[Geary Schindel]

Roger,

 

If my memory serves me right, Terra Rosa just means red soil.  It is
very characteristic of karst areas but is also found in other non karst
areas depending upon the parent material.  For example, the soils
weathering from some of the granite areas around Llano have some red
(brown) in them rather than being black.  Soil formation is very complex
and I'm not sure if it is fully understood and you're quickly passing my
area of expertise.  

 

In Florida, I know that the Hawthorne Formation (relatively
non-carbonate rock) may account for some of the soils, but certainly not
all of it.  In addition, the limestones in some places may be dirtier
(have more shales and sands) than in other places so those soils may be
formed in place.  I'm not familiar enough with the Florida geology to
know for sure.  

 

Regarding the grasslands, I understand that the earlier settlers that
passed through parts of Kentucky shunned the grasslands for agricultural
purposes because they believed that if they weren't good enough to grow
trees, they probably wouldn't grow much else.  Hence the name Barren
County in Kentucky.  However, it turns out that the grassland areas are
some of the most productive agricultural lands in the state.  They also
grown trees just fine if you suppress fire.

 

Geary

 

 

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: cavera...@aol.com [mailto:cavera...@aol.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:49 PM
To: Geary Schindel; dlocklea...@gmail.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

 

Interesting concepts, indeed, especially in regard to the very thick
soils and fire maintenance of grasslands.

 

But how do the red clays of the Florida and SW Georgia karst fit in?  I
don't think these clays are massively thick.  But more interestingly,
unless they are derived from elsewhere, I don't there was much of
anything other than limestone of various ages present in this region.
It wasn't that long ago (in geologic terms) that the whole area was
under water, and, for the most part, it isn't very much above water
these days.  (More than Houston, I have to concede.)  

 

I think I picked up the term terra rosa from the Florida Geological
Survey's "Geology of Jackson County," written ca. 1955.  (Jackson, in
the eastern panhandle, is one of the leading dry cave counties of
Florida.)

 

Roger 







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Re: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

[CaverArch]

Interesting concepts, indeed, especially in regard to the very thick soils  
and fire maintenance of grasslands.
 
But how do the red clays of the Florida and SW Georgia karst fit in?   I 
don't think these clays are massively thick.  But more interestingly,  unless 
they 
are derived from elsewhere, I don't there was much of anything other  than 
limestone of various ages present in this region.  It wasn't that long  ago (in 
geologic terms) that the whole area was under water, and, for the most  part, 
it isn't very much above water these days.  (More than Houston, I  have to 
concede.)  
 
I think I picked up the term terra rosa from the Florida  Geological Survey's 
"Geology of Jackson County," written ca. 1955.   (Jackson, in the eastern 
panhandle, is one of the leading dry cave counties  of Florida.)
 
Roger 



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Re: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

[CaverArch]

 
 
In a message dated 7/24/2007 2:27:58 PM Central Daylight Time,  
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org writes:

Then again, I think  the folks in the upper Midwest stole their dirt  from 
Canada a couple thousand  years ago.


Typical damnyankee thing to do!
 
Roger 



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RE: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

[Geary Schindel]

Yeah,

 

We'll I think someone in Texas agreed with you as they took all the dirt
from the Hill Country and left just a thin red residue.  However, they
forgot to add the black dirt back.  Then again, I think the folks in the
upper Midwest stole their dirt from Canada a couple thousand years ago.

 

Maybe a soil scientist out there can splain it better.

 

Geary

 

-Original Message-
From: Katherine Arens [mailto:k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 2:20 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

 

Whaddaya mean "red stuff"  --- real dirt is BLACK -- none of this
southern red crap . . . ;-)

from the Chicagoan . . .

-katie

 

We had that red stuff on top in Florida and southern Georgia,
too.  (And it grew Kudzu damn well.)

 

Do I recall correctly that it is a specific residue of dissolved
limestone known as "terra rosa."  It consisted of all the insoluble
particles (including iron oxide) contained originally in the limestone
(which could tell you why many formations are reddish in color, I
assume).

 

Roger Moore

GHG









Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com

.

 

 

-- 



Katherine Arens  (Professor)Office: EPS 3.128;  Phone: (512)
232-6363

Dept. of Germanic Studies   Dept. Phone:  (512)471-4123

1 University Station C3300  FAX (512) 471-4025

University of Texas at Austin   Bldg.Location:  E.P. Schoch
3.102

Austin, TX  78712-0304  k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu
   -.   .-
   _..-'(  )`-.._
 ./'. '||\\.(\_/)   .//||` .`\.
  ./'.|'.'\\|..)O O(..|//`.`|.`\.
 ./'..|'.|| |\`` '`"'`  ''/| ||.`|..`\.
   ./'.||'. . . .`||.`\.
  /'|||'.|| { } ||.`|||`\
 '.|||'.||| { } |||.`|||.`
 '.||| | |/'   ``\||`` ''||/''   `\| | |||.`
|/' \./' `\./ \!|\   /|!/  \./' `\./ `\|
V   V  V  }' `\ /' `{  VV   V
   `  `  `V'  '  '

Re: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

[Katherine Arens]

Whaddaya mean "red stuff"  --- real dirt is BLACK -- none of this 
southern red crap . . . ;-)

from the Chicagoan . . .
-katie

We had that red stuff on top in Florida and southern Georgia, too. 
(And it grew Kudzu damn well.)


Do I recall correctly that it is a specific residue of dissolved 
limestone known as "terra rosa."  It consisted of all the insoluble 
particles (including iron oxide) contained originally in the 
limestone (which could tell you why many formations are reddish in 
color, I assume).


Roger Moore
GHG




Get a sneak peek of the all-new 
AOL.com.



--

Katherine Arens  (Professor)		Office: EPS 3.128;  Phone: 
(512) 232-6363

Dept. of Germanic Studies   Dept. Phone:  (512)471-4123
1 University Station C3300  FAX (512) 471-4025
University of Texas at Austin   Bldg.Location:  E.P. Schoch 3.102
Austin, TX  78712-0304  k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu
   -.   .-
   _..-'(  )`-.._
 ./'. '||\\.(\_/)   .//||` .`\.
  ./'.|'.'\\|..)O O(..|//`.`|.`\.
 ./'..|'.|| |\`` '`"'`  ''/| ||.`|..`\.
   ./'.||'. . . .`||.`\.
  /'|||'.|| { } ||.`|||`\
 '.|||'.||| { } |||.`|||.`
 '.||| | |/'   ``\||`` ''||/''   `\| | |||.`
|/' \./' `\./ \!|\   /|!/  \./' `\./ `\|
V   V  V  }' `\ /' `{  VV   V
   `  `  `V'  '  '

RE: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

[Geary Schindel]

Roger,

 

Actually, there is some discussion regarding the origin of the soils in
the eastern carbonates.  Some folks have done studies and reported that
there is insufficient non-soluble material in the limestone to account
for the very thick soils in the eastern limestone areas such as Indiana,
Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia, and Virginia.  Therefore, the soils
may be weathered from parent material such as sandstones and shales
located above the limestones and are left in place after the parent
material has been removed.

 

Another interesting point is the nature of the large historical
grasslands that were present in the east and made for great hunting by
early Americans.  If you remember, when Daniel Boone saw the Inner
Bluegrass of Kentucky, it was a large grassland with bison and other
savannah animals.  Most of the karst areas with think soils and lots of
limestone were natural grasslands such as southern Indiana, central and
western Kentucky and southern Illinois.  Parts of the Nashville Basin,
the Inner Bluegrass around Lexington, parts of the Tennessee Highland
Rim, the Greenbrier Valley in West Virginia, and parts of the Shenandoah
Valley and Hagerstown Valley in Virginia and Maryland.  While the
grasslands grew tress quite well, the native Americans probably kept the
karst areas burned off for game control.  Since there are few surface
streams, there are not very many natural fire breaks.  You can also grow
a lot more critters on the grasslands than you can in the woodlands.  

 

Anyway, interesting concepts.

 

Geary

 

-Original Message-
From: cavera...@aol.com [mailto:cavera...@aol.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:57 PM
To: Geary Schindel; dlocklea...@gmail.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

 

We had that red stuff on top in Florida and southern Georgia, too.  (And
it grew Kudzu damn well.)  

 

Do I recall correctly that it is a specific residue of dissolved
limestone known as "terra rosa."  It consisted of all the insoluble
particles (including iron oxide) contained originally in the limestone
(which could tell you why many formations are reddish in color, I
assume).  

 

Roger Moore

GHG







Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com

.

Re: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

[CaverArch]

We had that red stuff on top in Florida and southern Georgia, too.   (And it 
grew Kudzu damn well.)  
 
Do I recall correctly that it is a specific residue of dissolved limestone  
known as "terra rosa."  It consisted of all the insoluble  particles (including 
iron oxide) contained originally in the limestone  (which could tell you why 
many formations are reddish in color, I assume).  
 
Roger  Moore
GHG



** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

RE: [Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

[Geary Schindel]

David,

Thanks for the reports on the convention, wish I was there.  To try to
briefly answer your question on Indiana and Texas, the red stuff on top
of the rock in Indiana is called soil.  Most folks from south-central
Texas won't recognize it.  Plants and trees like to grown in it -
especially if there is water present.

There is a significant difference in rainfall between Indiana and Texas.
The Hill Country gets between 22 and 30 inches on average - Southern
Indiana is around 45-50 inches I believe. That's why you can grow lots
of corn without irrigation - they have both soil and abundant rainfall
(on average).

The karst systems in Indiana is mostly epigenic in nature, relatively
shallow systems with relatively short flow paths, usually less than 10
miles in length (however, cave lengths may be much longer).  Springs are
smaller than in Texas because of the shorter length of the flow paths as
well as some other reasons - even though Indiana gets more rain.  I
think that largest spring in Indiana is about 10 times smaller than
Comal.  

Texas processes, in many places, appear to be more hypogene in nature
with deep and long circulation paths.  Just look at it this way, the
longest caves systems in the world may be in the artesian zone of the
Edwards Aquifer, it just happens to be under water and difficult to
explore.  If the Edwards Aquifer was drained, you would have one
relatively well integrated system that is 150 miles long, 5 to 40 miles
wide, and over 3,000 feet deep.  We're talking 1,000's of miles of
conduits.  The longer more integrated flow paths in Texas would be
expected to produce, but much larger springs, even though rain fall
amounts in Texas are about half of Indiana.

Please understand this is a very limited discussion on karst processes
and that it is really much more complicated than that.  

Also, go see Blue Springs Caverns while you're up there.  It's a great
boat ride in a very long cave.  The cave is also owned by a long time
Indiana caver.  You may also get a chance to see some real blind fish.

Geary Schindel




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[Texascavers] cave geology of southern Indiana?

[David Locklear]

Can someone "briefly" explain the major difference between
karst and caves of the Texas Hill Country and that of
southern Indiana?

( in a few short paragraphs please )


In my opinion, most of the surface area around here looks like
parts of east Texas just southwest of Texarkana.

I can't imagine there being caves here, but there are and they
are awesome.

What is so important about the glacier demarcation lines?

It seems like there are a lot of caves here where you travel upstream
from a spring entrance and the cave then ends in breakdown beneath
a plugged sinkhole.   Why don't they open of the sinkholes and
have thru trips?Are there many thru trip caves here?"

There are so many caves here that cavers can't remember which
one they where in.

Also, I have heard that some of the really small towns of the maps,
have different names used by the locals that live there.I know
for a fact that many of the roads are not marked and there are
very few signs to help a lost tourist.  I have a topo Atlas of Indiana,
and it is a must have for anybody travelling down here,
but you might could get by with good GPS navigation system.

I have learned that the Blue River is not really blue.  The only
good swimming hole so far that I have found was in the cave
that I went to.All the creeks and streams resemble
those in East Texas where we commonly have gators.
I don't like swimming with gators.

There appears to be only 2 things to do around here in southern
Indiana. Agricultural work and caving. After 15 minutes of
driving the Hoosier National Forest, I had had enough.I imagine
the locals go stir crazy.

David Locklear

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[Texascavers] NSS Convention - report # 7

[David Locklear]

It is Tuesday around lunchtime, and the cavers are now actively
attending all sorts of programs like the US Exploration session,
and many are caving today.

More Texas cavers are here now.I have seen Dr. George Veni,
and Rick Corbell, Mike Walsh and Stephen Gutting.

I know I am leaving someone's name out.  Can anybody correct
me on that?

At least 3 of the Terminal Siphons are here, Lisa, Keith, and Albert.

I hope they have a sax player this year.

I have tested the hot tubs. There is one big really hot tub, and
a smaller warm and cold tub.

The hot showers are good, but there is no floor drain and the water
just runs off into a gravel area.

I don't think there are co-ed showers.

There is no place to brush your teeth or wash your hands in the
shower room. But there are in the pavillion about 200 feet away.

The volunteers did a lot of hard work building the showers and hot
tubs. But the sauna crew didn't build a sauna.

The weather today is the hottest so far, but it would still be
a pleasant day compared with Houston. It looks like we
are going to get wet on Thursday.

I plan to visit a commercial cave and going caving tomorrow in
"Eric's River Cave," which some claim is the 551st longest
cave in the U.S.

My only other cave trip that is tentatively planned ( for me ) is for Saturday,
assuming I can resolve a rental car problem that I have.At the
moment, I have to turn in my rental car 2 days before my plane
leaves.


With an outdoor event such as this with hundreds of people, someone
is eventually going to need minor medical treatment. I know at least
one person has had to go there to treat a large cut. Future convention
planners need to make sure the medical center has its own facility
and its own electrical system.  This years medical center
power was tied into the same one the rock band was using, and they
couldn't turn off all the lights for the concert which affected the
fun atmosphere of the concert.

I haven't seen many mosquitos yet, but several ticks around
camp early in the morning.

What little I know of the area, is that if you were to live in the
town of Paoli,
you would have about 2,000 caves within an easy hour drive of your house
with no traffic, and many of those caves are awesome.  Maybe Paoli
should get some sort of recognition for that,
or which ever town here is more centered around the caves of southern
Indiana.

http://www.paoliindiana.info/

2B continued ...

David Locklear

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[Texascavers] NSS Convention report # 6

[David Locklear]

This report of my Monday afternoon activities
doesn't have much to say.


I finished my shopping at the vendors. I bought several old caving
books, and a pair of Spandera caving pants. I think I have already
gone over my affordable budget, and will have to postpone getting
a new headlamp or vertical gear.

I didn't attend any official NSS meetings, but I did socialize and examine
many of the displays and kiosk.

The cafeteria food did not look too appealing, so I just snacked on
what I had around camp.


It was Monday afternoon, and I had been looking for my misplaced smartphone
for 2 days in my spare time.  After a thorough and frustrating search, I
realized I had lost it for good.

I found that concept hard to imagine, because back home the phone
is practically glued to my hand. My original plan was to leave it at
home, but I had too many last minute business problems before
leaving town.

So I retraced my steps, which wasn't easy due to my fuzzy memory.

I drove to a town about 15 minutes south of here were I last remembered
using it 3 days ago.  I had been at a scenic place on the
Ohio River about 150 feet
from a famous restaurant called "the Overlook."  I knew I didn't leave
it in the restaurant, and figured I left it where I had been sitting, and
someone now had a wonderful smartphone with my entire business
information on it.

Fortunately, a good samaritan turned it in to the restaurant.And
they had been trying to contact me to get it back to me. That
was incredible luck.

I was so relieved when she pulled the phone out of her lost and
found box.

So by then, my Monday itenarary was messed up, and I spent the
rest of the sunlight that I had, driving the gravel backroads of the
Hoosier national Forest in Perry County and southern Crawford
County.My main stop there was a scenic overlook at the
Ohio River called "Buzzard's Roost" and another one about 5 miles
upstream.

http://www.roadtripmemories.com/images/rtm/IN_KY2003/IN_KY2003035.JPG

http://www.roadtripmemories.com/images/rtm/IN_KY2003/IN_KY2003040.JPG

http://www.roadtripmemories.com/images/rtm/IN_KY2003/IN_KY2003043.JPG

Some of the paved roads were part of the "Ohio River Scenic Byway."

After that, I drove straight to the Howdy Party.

David Locklear

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[Texascavers] NSS Convention - The Howdy Party

[David Locklear]

This year the Howdy Party was held in a large pavillion with cement
floors and open walls on 2 sides.

The band that played was the best in the 8 conventions that I have
attended.

"Tim Brickley and the Bleeding Hearts"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amyi9bQgJvo

The played rock from the early 80's like the Police

"Message in a Bottle"

and Joe Jackson

"Is She really going out with him?"

and some 70's soft rock like:

"Brandy" by Looking Glass.

I am pretty sure they played 2 Van Morrison songs,
a George Harrison song, and a Beatles song.

I don't think there was any hard rock, new wave,
and certainly no hip-hop or heavy metal, and
nothing like Jimi Hendrix or Stevie Ray Vaughn.

They closed the concert with Lou Reed's

"Rock n Roll."

Does anybody remember what songs I left out?

They gave me 2 free copies of their CD:

http://www.tagtuner.com/music/albums/Tim-Brickley-And-The-Bleeding-Hearts/Everything-That-Ever-Was/album-v2174b48

I felt like I was watching John Mellancamp before he became
famous, only Tim Brickley was better.

I think they played 2 or 3 great sets, but they were not allowed
to do an encore and quit playing long before the cavers wanted
them to.  They left with people chanting "We want more!!!"


Outside was a beer garden, and on the other side was a giant
tent where a lot of people ate and socialized. There was
plenty of fried chicken, free ice tea, and there were soft drinks.

Personally, I thought the food could have been better, however,
I was one of the last people to show up and the food had been
sitting there cold for a while.

I have said this after ever convention, and I will say it again.
If the NSS wants to attract younger new blood, they are going
to have to spend the money to put on parties with great
bands like this one. The youngest person I have met so
far at the convention was 26.She told me she had never
heard some of the hit songs that the band was playing.
I think the band was playing what most of the dancing
people wanted to hear.I am afraid future conventions
are going to have to have hip-hop or rap or techno or
something in order to get the youth of today interested
in going to future Howdy Parties.

My personal opinion was there were about 20 single
guys around the dance floor and 2 or 3 girls that
wanted to dance with them.I think somebody needs
to do some work on that ratio.  All the couples were
having a blast dancing.

After the party, many cavers stayed up to the crack of dawn
laughing and socializing.

When I finally fell asleep, somebody shined a bright light in my
face. I woke and wanted to ask them what the heck they were
doing.  But it was just the sunrise.

David Locklear

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