[ot_caving] fabric bags
I bought Sierra Club bags here in Wichita Falls in ? the 1980's I think and still use the worn stained bags. They have been great bags to carry dirty cave clothes and even when I moved to hold the last stuff I had to pack. I had some in the car all the time when I still could drive. I also have a larger old tote bag that fits between my feet when full on my electric wheelchair. You have to have one hand free to move the darn thing with its 'dead man switch' movement. This is great when I roll across the street to the new Walmart. I know I hate Walmart but it is nice to do some of my own shopping for a change now that one is really just across the street. I miss all the stuff on one list but I agree with Kara it will get back together some time soon. I miss caving but am glad I had the chance to do so when I did, and was happy to be on quite a few of the original trips to work on the Colorado Bend project. Reading about the project now is fun. Quinta
confirm subscribe to o...@texascavers.com
Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the o...@texascavers.com mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at ot-ow...@texascavers.com. To confirm that you would like wok...@gmail.com added to the ot mailing list, please send an empty reply to this address: ot-sc.1200403474.nilfjmiighocalapebig-wokkad=gmail@texascavers.com Usually, this happens when you just hit the reply button. If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into the To: field of a new message. This confirmation serves two purposes. First, it verifies that I am able to get mail through to you. Second, it protects you in case someone forges a subscription request in your name. Some mail programs are broken and cannot handle long addresses. If you cannot reply to this request, instead send a message to ot-requ...@texascavers.com and put the entire address listed above into the Subject: line. --- Administrative commands for the ot list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: For help and a description of available commands, send a message to: ot-h...@texascavers.com To subscribe to the list, send a message to: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To remove your address from the list, just send a message to the address in the ``List-Unsubscribe'' header of any list message. If you haven't changed addresses since subscribing, you can also send a message to: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com or for the digest to: ot-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For addition or removal of addresses, I'll send a confirmation message to that address. When you receive it, simply reply to it to complete the transaction. If you need to get in touch with the human owner of this list, please send a message to: ot-ow...@texascavers.com Please include a FORWARDED list message with ALL HEADERS intact to make it easier to help you. --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. Return-Path: wok...@gmail.com Received: (qmail 41682 invoked by uid 31338); 15 Jan 2008 13:24:34 - Received: from wok...@gmail.com by raistlin.wokka.org by uid 89 with qmail-scanner-1.22 (clamscan: 0.75.1. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:0(72.14.220.157):SA:0(-4.8/5.0):. Processed in 16.590423 secs); 15 Jan 2008 13:24:34 - X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 Received: from unknown (HELO fg-out-1718.google.com) (72.14.220.157) by 5a.b9.3845.static.theplanet.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2008 13:24:17 - Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id l27so2683718fgb.42 for ot-subscr...@texascavers.com; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:24:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=BBkkJE6mkeT0xRCgdtnLgr43zN69T9v8CYJR/fMUR3Q=; b=HJyjA83l7dlsPsxUETngw138Uox5F5fEXvfTWXAcV5A1jaA2NlDwz8d4R3TjdmX7svDCOpNyWFFVgl7W7bqqE3ofQzuuqbT0lZjOT2+tnqBD97HAojyjz6Ni1ZjhqqirkIQFzYKgD4+zlO4m0k5DqILuf6nam/DvvtQMOz7+ydU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=BG+md6eoTc2BVRSIczBJ/PyluOfXOBwhohMyIVmPHot0trsTxh841h93PuFj54Y5y2RAfiiQXt7vRJZ0a18wWMNGd244Gc/zzQ9jN7vAzGoSfCcNoMs7PeKUIJQGkaEJE99I5wFMcb5Yg9r0ONc8SKblqO5G/dwYvFn20PM0zeM= Received: by 10.82.116.15 with SMTP id o15mr13145888buc.3.1200403451878; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.180.12 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:24:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: b6445c8c0801150524r7a296325m3b70be4dbdcf1...@mail.gmail.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:24:11 -0600 From: Charles Goldsmith wok...@gmail.com To: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com Subject: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_Part_9561_2334931.1200403451871 --=_Part_9561_2334931.1200403451871 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --=_Part_9561_2334931.1200403451871 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline br --=_Part_9561_2334931.1200403451871--
Re: [ot_caving] wow!
Yes, ot-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com is the correct address, with ezmlm (mailing list software that I use), ot-h...@texascavers.com will give you all of the instructions. The help address is given to you when subscribe, just most people don't read it :) It looks like you already moved yourself over to digest, so good deal We are up to 22 subscribers! Charles On 1/14/08, Alex Sproul imoca...@comcast.net wrote: Now forgive me, but how are the instructions wrong? Well, Charles, though I think we've been here before, there are no instructions for how to get _digested_ OT, though there's a way to UNsubsribe from a digested membership. Should I have subscribed to ot-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com ? Since I am in here already, will you please switch me to digested? Digests are the *only* way to get OT -- you can cherry-pick, and not have to even scroll past the drivel you don't want to read! Alex -- Alex Sproul, NSS 8086 NSS IT Committee
[ot_caving] caver mommyhood
I did not do caver mommyhood just caver grandmommyhood. I took my 2 year old granddaughter caving ( the easy day trips from Wichtia Falls) and she went with me to Colorado Bend at least one time. Umm -she now has 4 children and dang it I am not able to take them caving.
RE: [ot_caving] caver mommyhood
Congratulations, Kara! That's great news! I think a lot of the skills are like riding a bike. You won't forget. Besides, these projects will be around when you and your boy/girl are ready to get back into it. Heck, CBSP Project just turned 20! Plus, there's a lot of babysitters on the surface and you and Dad/Charley can take turns. That's how Travis and Amanda Scott do it now. In the meantime, don't do any caving but be sure to attend the meetings. You definitely don't want to do anything to jeopardize the baby's or your health. Good luck on the pregnancy, you poor thing. My late/great wife carried all three of our kids during the summer. They were all born in late July/early August! Whew! You women are a tougher animal than us guys are. Mark -Original Message- From: Kara Savvas [mailto:misskarabi...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:02 PM To: o...@texascavers.com Subject: [ot_caving] caver mommyhood So, I'm going to have a baby late this summer. I am personally very excited about that... but as a caver, I'm starting to have fears. I'm starting to worry that I'm going to lose ground on whatever skills I have, and because I do plan to breastfeed for an extended time, that I will really miss out on some caving. How do I get back into it? How do I make sure I don't get too far out of it? Has anyone else had this experience, and jumped back in? Any advice? Kara Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] [Looking for Gary Franklin]
Please contact me off list. or If someone could get me contact information for him. Thanks! --- donarb...@mac.com
cavetex and OTtex
Do not listen to Mr Wes. I think you are doing a great job with something that is very difficult. I think that the setting up of the OT tex list was a great move and one of the best win/win solutions that anyone could have come up with. It is so much in keeping with the all inclusive traditions that we have long strived for in Texas caving. I hope that everyone will accept and honor this new arrangement and then maybe we can get back a number of the people who dropped cavetex
Re: cavetex and OTtex
Thanks for the support. Charles On 1/13/08, Andy Grubbs hays...@centurytel.net wrote: Do not listen to Mr Wes. I think you are doing a great job with something that is very difficult. I think that the setting up of the OT tex list was a great move and one of the best win/win solutions that anyone could have come up with. It is so much in keeping with the all inclusive traditions that we have long strived for in Texas caving. I hope that everyone will accept and honor this new arrangement and then maybe we can get back a number of the people who dropped cavetex
Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
I don't need consoling! :-) I'm doing just fine. I'll ask again, why aren't
people saying this on Texascavers?
I respect some of the objectors very much, too, but wish they would get over
themselves for a minute. I don't think the uglyness came from any particular
subject, it came from a FEW INDIVIDUALS. I considered a Poll, but I think that
would be beat back considerably. But I also think there are more pro-OT people
on Texascavers than not.
This is the bottom line for me - I think there is a kind of an arrogant move to
try to 'get rid' of high volume posters that some don't find to be serious
enough about caving. And that bothers me.
With a little perspective, its is just all so silly. But I say, give Cavetex
what it asks for, and maybe they will come around? Or not. But the experiment
is worthwhile.
k
- Original Message
From: Johnson, Russ (ATX) russ.k.john...@westonsolutions.com
To: imoca...@comcast.net; misskarabi...@yahoo.com; Scott Nicholson
csnichol...@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:55:50 AM
Subject: FW: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
Alex and Kara, Fear not, cavetex will be back.
I am hopeful that OT-tex will be abandoned in time. No plans for me to
subscribe. The public beat-downs on OT postings happen periodically. I have a
lot of respect some of those who have complained, and their right to express
themselves. And I appreciate fully the modern torture of having to wade
through more email than any one mind should have to endure. It is healthy and
appropriate for this complaint to arise every so often, especially if things
get ugly as they recently have.
OT postings will get quiet and remain so for a bit. Then they will resume a
tolerable normal background noise level...as it should be. Then one day
someone will get under another's saddle and this will all repeat. This cycle
has repeated several times since the days of the primordial Cavetex list, it is
natural.
However, for the reasons Alex so eloquently expresses below, the curmudgeons
should not be allowed to run the rest of us off. It is our list too. Frankly,
those interested in (or at least willing to delete) the OT postings outweigh
the ones complaining. So I encourage everyone to let OT-tex die on the vine,
not the real caver email server.
I surely thought I had heard enough on the evolution-religion thread ... but
just then someone posts an interesting and thoughtful statement that causes
everyone to pause. I wouldn't miss it. Everyone would lose if we lost the
postings on S. Texas railways, the Rio Bravo, and twisty tobacco, pig and
chicken-operated one-holers and other brick shithouses, Terlingua goats, ...I
could go on.
Please feel free to forward this to OT-Tex.
Russ
Llano, TX
From: Scott Nicholson [mailto:csnichol...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 11:09 PM
To: Johnson, Russ (ATX)
Subject: Fw: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
you should forward this to cavetex.
Scott Nicholson
Broker/Waterboy
The Discovery Team
(512) 94-SCOTT {947-2688}
Keller Williams Realty
- Forwarded Message
From: Alex Sproul
To: o...@texascavers.com
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 10:26:20 PM
Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
Absolutely!
Kara, you are clearly feeling a lot better! Glad to see it!
I agree that this splitting of the list is silly and divisive and doomed to
failure, but in the meantime, I don't want to miss any of the juicy bits!
In case any of you Tejanos haven't noticed (I started to say 'have your heads
so far up, you can't see' but that wouldn't be PC...), you have THE largest,
busiest, most vibrant and entertaining caver mail-list in the country. You know
it's good if the internationally renowned Sr. Sleaze Weasel has joined up and
become a regular contributor. (And what, pray tell, could be more OT than
*that*??)
I very much look forward to my daily dose, I mean digest, of Texas tripe, all
the way up here in VA. I'm a member of every caver list I know of, and
texascavers is my fave. Why? Because it's always so full of irreverent humor,
witticisms, strange factoids, and tall tales from the likes of Gil 'Oztotl'
Ediger, Sleaze, and the DirtDoc, not to mention SpeleoSteele, WaV, and others,
and certainly to mention the inimitable David Locklear.
Sure, all the lists have a Rule Numero Uno that says all posts have to be
caving related. Some of them actually enforce that. The VAR list has ONLY
posts directly related to caving, and I get one, maybe two digests a week, each
with one message in them. Bo-ring! TAG-Net is always extolling the virtues of
it's 5,000-word trip reports, which put me straight to sleep. Bo- ring!! And
they have actually excommunicating cavers for not playing by the rules! I love
TAG, and I love Texas, but I don't cave there very often, so mostly I scroll
past the cave talk, looking for the
Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
There are always people who complain, that want change, and most aren't
willing to help with it. I probably went off on Wes a bit hard, but it
struck a nerve and I'm having a bad year so far, so I vented a bit. He
deserved it, but probably not as harsh as I did it.
Splitting the list is probably an easy way out, shutting up the complainers,
but I'm hoping that it will actually drive more people to our Texas caving
chatter here on either of the lists, making us grow more. Growing these
lists also helps out our Grotto's and Regional groups (TCMA, TSA, TCC, etc).
If people have ideas that will help us grow as a community, I'm game and
will assist where I can.
Charles
On 1/15/08, Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com wrote:
I don't need consoling! :-) I'm doing just fine. I'll ask again, why
aren't people saying this on Texascavers?
I respect some of the objectors very much, too, but wish they would get
over themselves for a minute. I don't think the uglyness came from any
particular subject, it came from a FEW INDIVIDUALS. I considered a Poll, but
I think that would be beat back considerably. But I also think there are
more pro-OT people on Texascavers than not.
This is the bottom line for me - I think there is a kind of an arrogant
move to try to 'get rid' of high volume posters that some don't find to be
serious enough about caving. And that bothers me.
With a little perspective, its is just all so silly. But I say, give
Cavetex what it asks for, and maybe they will come around? Or not. But the
experiment is worthwhile.
k
- Original Message
From: Johnson, Russ (ATX) russ.k.john...@westonsolutions.com
To: imoca...@comcast.net; misskarabi...@yahoo.com; Scott Nicholson
csnichol...@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:55:50 AM
Subject: FW: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
Alex and Kara, Fear not, cavetex will be back.
I am hopeful that OT-tex will be abandoned in time. No plans for me to
subscribe. The public beat-downs on OT postings happen periodically. I
have a lot of respect some of those who have complained, and their right to
express themselves. And I appreciate fully the modern torture of having to
wade through more email than any one mind should have to endure. It is
healthy and appropriate for this complaint to arise every so often,
especially if things get ugly as they recently have.
OT postings will get quiet and remain so for a bit. Then they will resume
a tolerable normal background noise level...as it should be. Then one day
someone will get under another's saddle and this will all repeat. This
cycle has repeated several times since the days of the primordial Cavetex
list, it is natural.
However, for the reasons Alex so eloquently expresses below, the
curmudgeons should not be allowed to run the rest of us off. It is our list
too. Frankly, those interested in (or at least willing to delete) the OT
postings outweigh the ones complaining. So I encourage everyone to let
OT-tex die on the vine, not the real caver email server.
I surely thought I had heard enough on the evolution-religion thread ...
but just then someone posts an interesting and thoughtful statement that
causes everyone to pause. I wouldn't miss it. Everyone would lose if we
lost the postings on S. Texas railways, the Rio Bravo, and twisty tobacco,
pig and chicken-operated one-holers and other brick shithouses, Terlingua
goats, ...I could go on.
Please feel free to forward this to OT-Tex.
Russ
Llano, TX
--
*From:* Scott Nicholson [mailto:csnichol...@sbcglobal.net]
*Sent:* Monday, January 14, 2008 11:09 PM
*To:* Johnson, Russ (ATX)
*Subject:* Fw: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
you should forward this to cavetex.
*Scott Nicholson*
*Broker/Waterboy*
*The Discovery Team*
*(512) 94-SCOTT {947-2688}*
*Keller Williams Realty*
- Forwarded Message
From: Alex Sproul
To: o...@texascavers.com
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 10:26:20 PM
Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
Absolutely!
Kara, you are clearly feeling a lot better! Glad to see it!
I agree that this splitting of the list is silly and divisive and doomed
to failure, but in the meantime, I don't want to miss any of the juicy bits!
In case any of you Tejanos haven't noticed (I started to say 'have your
heads so far up, you can't see' but that wouldn't be PC...), you have THE
largest, busiest, most vibrant and entertaining caver mail-list in the
country. You know it's good if the internationally renowned Sr. Sleaze
Weasel has joined up and become a regular contributor. (And what, pray
tell, could be more OT than *that*??)
I very much look forward to my daily dose, I mean digest, of Texas tripe,
all the way up here in VA. I'm a member of every caver list I know of, and
texascavers is my fave. Why? Because it's always so full of irreverent
humor,
RE: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentence, Charles. In all of my years of being involved with Scouting, soccer, softball, caving, and other volunteer activities, there's never a shortage of critics. A shortage of doers/volunteers? Always, but never a shortage of folks criticizing how you do something. Creating the On Topic and Off Topic list was brilliant. Let everyone else self moderate by hitting the delete key. You're doing a superb, yet, thankless job and we all appreciate you for providing this service. Criticism is all too common, but, pats on the back are, often times, too infrequent. Much like being the TEXAS CAVER editor! 8^) (A smirking) Mark From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tue 1/15/2008 12:52 PM To: Kara Savvas Cc: Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? There are always people who complain, that want change, and most aren't willing to help with it. I probably went off on Wes a bit hard, but it struck a nerve and I'm having a bad year so far, so I vented a bit. He deserved it, but probably not as harsh as I did it. Splitting the list is probably an easy way out, shutting up the complainers, but I'm hoping that it will actually drive more people to our Texas caving chatter here on either of the lists, making us grow more. Growing these lists also helps out our Grotto's and Regional groups (TCMA, TSA, TCC, etc). If people have ideas that will help us grow as a community, I'm game and will assist where I can. Charles On 1/15/08, Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com mailto:misskarabi...@yahoo.com wrote: I don't need consoling! :-) I'm doing just fine. I'll ask again, why aren't people saying this on Texascavers? I respect some of the objectors very much, too, but wish they would get over themselves for a minute. I don't think the uglyness came from any particular subject, it came from a FEW INDIVIDUALS. I considered a Poll, but I think that would be beat back considerably. But I also think there are more pro-OT people on Texascavers than not. This is the bottom line for me - I think there is a kind of an arrogant move to try to 'get rid' of high volume posters that some don't find to be serious enough about caving. And that bothers me. With a little perspective, its is just all so silly. But I say, give Cavetex what it asks for, and maybe they will come around? Or not. But the experiment is worthwhile. k - Original Message From: Johnson, Russ (ATX) russ.k.john...@westonsolutions.com mailto:russ.k.john...@westonsolutions.com To: imoca...@comcast.net; misskarabi...@yahoo.com; Scott Nicholson csnichol...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:55:50 AM Subject: FW: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? Alex and Kara, Fear not, cavetex will be back. I am hopeful that OT-tex will be abandoned in time. No plans for me to subscribe. The public beat-downs on OT postings happen periodically. I have a lot of respect some of those who have complained, and their right to express themselves. And I appreciate fully the modern torture of having to wade through more email than any one mind should have to endure. It is healthy and appropriate for this complaint to arise every so often, especially if things get ugly as they recently have. OT postings will get quiet and remain so for a bit. Then they will resume a tolerable normal background noise level...as it should be. Then one day someone will get under another's saddle and this will all repeat. This cycle has repeated several times since the days of the primordial Cavetex list, it is natural. However, for the reasons Alex so eloquently expresses below, the curmudgeons should not be allowed to run the rest of us off. It is our list too. Frankly, those interested in (or at least willing to delete) the OT postings outweigh the ones complaining. So I encourage everyone to let OT-tex die on the vine, not the real caver email server. I surely thought I had heard enough on the evolution-religion thread ... but just then someone posts an interesting and thoughtful statement that causes everyone to pause. I wouldn't miss it. Everyone would lose if we lost the postings on S. Texas railways, the Rio Bravo, and twisty tobacco, pig and chicken-operated one-holers and other brick shithouses, Terlingua goats, ...I could go on. Please feel free to forward this to OT-Tex. Russ Llano, TX From: Scott Nicholson
Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
Don't worry. Curmudgeoness will drive people away from the main list. I expect this list to take over in the next few years, especially if all you ever see are cave reports and flashlight reviews. I'll post some really boring, multi-part cave reports just to help the process along. Simon -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:52:21 -0600 Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? There are always people who complain, that want change, and most aren't willing to help with it. I probably went off on Wes a bit hard, but it struck a nerve and I'm having a bad year so far, so I vented a bit. He deserved it, but probably not as harsh as I did it. Splitting the list is probably an easy way out, shutting up the complainers, but I'm hoping that it will actually drive more people to our Texas caving chatter here on either of the lists, making us grow more. Growing these lists also helps out our Grotto's and Regional groups (TCMA, TSA, TCC, etc). If people have ideas that will help us grow as a community, I'm game and will assist where I can. Charles - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
and I hope that people also post cave related stuff here, too. I'm interested in it all! K - Original Message From: Simon Newton csnew...@gmail.com To: o...@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:21:54 PM Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? Don't worry. Curmudgeoness will drive people away from the main list. I expect this list to take over in the next few years, especially if all you ever see are cave reports and flashlight reviews. I'll post some really boring, multi-part cave reports just to help the process along. Simon -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:52:21 -0600 Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? There are always people who complain, that want change, and most aren't willing to help with it. I probably went off on Wes a bit hard, but it struck a nerve and I'm having a bad year so far, so I vented a bit. He deserved it, but probably not as harsh as I did it. Splitting the list is probably an easy way out, shutting up the complainers, but I'm hoping that it will actually drive more people to our Texas caving chatter here on either of the lists, making us grow more. Growing these lists also helps out our Grotto's and Regional groups (TCMA, TSA, TCC, etc). If people have ideas that will help us grow as a community, I'm game and will assist where I can. Charles - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
I know this sounds bad, but we really need to keep this place On-Topic for the off-topic things, therefore, the caving stuff should really go only to the main list, texascavers@texascavers.com. I don't want emails being cross-posted, that will actually split the two lists and it shouldn't be like that. Everyone on this list should be on the main list, but not vice-versa. Charles On 1/15/08, Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com wrote: and I hope that people also post cave related stuff here, too. I'm interested in it all! K - Original Message From: Simon Newton csnew...@gmail.com To: o...@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:21:54 PM Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? Don't worry. Curmudgeoness will drive people away from the main list. I expect this list to take over in the next few years, especially if all you ever see are cave reports and flashlight reviews. I'll post some really boring, multi-part cave reports just to help the process along. Simon -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:52:21 -0600 Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? There are always people who complain, that want change, and most aren't willing to help with it. I probably went off on Wes a bit hard, but it struck a nerve and I'm having a bad year so far, so I vented a bit. He deserved it, but probably not as harsh as I did it. Splitting the list is probably an easy way out, shutting up the complainers, but I'm hoping that it will actually drive more people to our Texas caving chatter here on either of the lists, making us grow more. Growing these lists also helps out our Grotto's and Regional groups (TCMA, TSA, TCC, etc). If people have ideas that will help us grow as a community, I'm game and will assist where I can. Charles - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
Just to clarify - the lengthy (extra dry) trip reports will go to the main list. The interesting stuff I'll post here (unless it's specifically cave related). Simon On Jan 15, 2008 1:43 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I know this sounds bad, but we really need to keep this place On-Topic for the off-topic things, therefore, the caving stuff should really go only to the main list, texascavers@texascavers.com . I don't want emails being cross-posted, that will actually split the two lists and it shouldn't be like that. Everyone on this list should be on the main list, but not vice-versa. Charles On 1/15/08, Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com wrote: and I hope that people also post cave related stuff here, too. I'm interested in it all! K
Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
Cool On 1/15/08, Simon Newton csnew...@gmail.com wrote: Just to clarify - the lengthy (extra dry) trip reports will go to the main list. The interesting stuff I'll post here (unless it's specifically cave related). Simon On Jan 15, 2008 1:43 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: I know this sounds bad, but we really need to keep this place On-Topic for the off-topic things, therefore, the caving stuff should really go only to the main list, texascavers@texascavers.com . I don't want emails being cross-posted, that will actually split the two lists and it shouldn't be like that. Everyone on this list should be on the main list, but not vice-versa. Charles On 1/15/08, Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com wrote: and I hope that people also post cave related stuff here, too. I'm interested in it all! K
Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet?
I just cringed. I'm not going to worry about it terribly much right now. I think it will all work out. Kara - Original Message From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com Cc: Simon Newton csnew...@gmail.com; o...@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:43:18 PM Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? I know this sounds bad, but we really need to keep this place On-Topic for the off-topic things, therefore, the caving stuff should really go only to the main list, texascavers@texascavers.com . I don't want emails being cross-posted, that will actually split the two lists and it shouldn't be like that. Everyone on this list should be on the main list, but not vice-versa. Charles On 1/15/08, Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com wrote: and I hope that people also post cave related stuff here, too. I'm interested in it all! K - Original Message From: Simon Newton csnew...@gmail.com To: o...@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:21:54 PM Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? Don't worry. Curmudgeoness will drive people away from the main list. I expect this list to take over in the next few years, especially if all you ever see are cave reports and flashlight reviews. I'll post some really boring, multi-part cave reports just to help the process along. Simon -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:52:21 -0600 Subject: Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? There are always people who complain, that want change, and most aren't willing to help with it. I probably went off on Wes a bit hard, but it struck a nerve and I'm having a bad year so far, so I vented a bit. He deserved it, but probably not as harsh as I did it. Splitting the list is probably an easy way out, shutting up the complainers, but I'm hoping that it will actually drive more people to our Texas caving chatter here on either of the lists, making us grow more. Growing these lists also helps out our Grotto's and Regional groups (TCMA, TSA, TCC, etc). If people have ideas that will help us grow as a community, I'm game and will assist where I can. Charles - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[Texascavers] international congress
I hope someone is keeping the europeans who are thinking of coming here for the ICS abreast of this. In my experience they are an irreverent lot who would just as soon discuss canyoneering skiing or drinking games as stick to the subject of caving. I volunteer to write a prologue to the guidebook dilineating what is acceptable subject matter here in Texas. Nancy - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Invitation to a Texas cave blog
I have posted 19 new threads on the blog below: http://360.yahoo.com/profile-5_RNwxg1erAi872DBDvnj4.c5c_D8Q--?cq=1 David Locklear P.S. This is intended to be a supplement and not a replacement for the things I want to post about. Blogging appears to have several advantages and several disadvantages. I will be discussing those in the blog. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] George Veni has offered some excellent guide lines
yes indeed, and since George is presumably an intelligent man, one can only assume they were written with a sublime sense of irony as telling people what is appropriate to post is not as a matter of fact an appropriate cave related posting. Nancy author of 2 of the 3 actual caving posts in recent memory
RE: [Texascavers] George Veni has offered some excellent guide lines
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] George Veni has offered some excellent guide lines
GIVE IT A REST. On Jan 15, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Nancy Weaver wrote: yes indeed, and since George is presumably an intelligent man, one can only assume they were written with a sublime sense of irony as telling people what is appropriate to post is not as a matter of fact an appropriate cave related posting. Nancy author of 2 of the 3 actual caving posts in recent memory
RE: [Texascavers] George Veni has offered some excellent guide lines
I hold George Veni in high esteem but do love irreverence to all things. Anything mentioning George is caving related. Don't taise me bro! F _ From: Don Arburn [mailto:donarb...@mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 3:11 PM To: Texas Cavers Subject: Re: [Texascavers] George Veni has offered some excellent guide lines GIVE IT A REST. On Jan 15, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Nancy Weaver wrote: yes indeed, and since George is presumably an intelligent man, one can only assume they were written with a sublime sense of irony as telling people what is appropriate to post is not as a matter of fact an appropriate cave related posting. Nancy author of 2 of the 3 actual caving posts in recent memory
RE: [Texascavers] George Veni has offered some excellent guide lines
These are the sorts of useless e-mails that bug me. I call them the quips. Bill Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: I hold George Veni in high esteem but do love irreverence to all things. Anything mentioning George is caving related. Don't taise me bro! F _ From: Don Arburn [mailto:donarb...@mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 3:11 PM To: Texas Cavers Subject: Re: [Texascavers] George Veni has offered some excellent guide lines GIVE IT A REST. On Jan 15, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Nancy Weaver wrote: yes indeed, and since George is presumably an intelligent man, one can only assume they were written with a sublime sense of irony as telling people what is appropriate to post is not as a matter of fact an appropriate cave related posting. Nancy author of 2 of the 3 actual caving posts in recent memory - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] [Toyota Caver Request]
I have a sort of strange request for Texas Cavers and ALL other cavers. Please send me a picture of your TOYOTA caving vehicle, any year any condition, preferably in caving trip action attire, but any shot would do. These will not be published (unless it warrants it for the Caver), Its a research project FOR the Caver. Thanks Don-on-topic Arburn - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] [Toyota Caver Request]
You should have been there at the last Robber Baron work day. There was this line of about 5 Toyota Tacomas (owned by cavers/volunteers) parked right beside the Robber Baron park. On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:09:46 -0600 donarb...@mac.com wrote: I have a sort of strange request for Texas Cavers and ALL other cavers. Please send me a picture of your TOYOTA caving vehicle, any year any condition, preferably in caving trip action attire, but any shot would do. These will not be published (unless it warrants it for the Caver), Its a research project FOR the Caver. Thanks Don-on-topic Arburn - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] [Toyota Caver Request]
Should this also include caving vehicles that are not running? In my yard are two choice Toyota's - a Landcruiser with a broken Chevy V-8 engine and Bev Shade's old Toyota w/lift kit and red fiberglass camper shell. -WaV On Jan 15, 2008 11:09 AM, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: I have a sort of strange request for Texas Cavers and ALL other cavers. Please send me a picture of your TOYOTA caving vehicle, any year any condition, preferably in caving trip action attire, but any shot would do. These will not be published (unless it warrants it for the Caver), Its a research project FOR the Caver. Thanks Don-on-topic Arburn - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people’s adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? “While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took care of itself in this matter.” If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a ubiquitous feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if they are posting to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic. That is where the moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread back on course. And passive moderating does not work! “These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I do think that some of them should be answered off list to the person directly.” This is not a solution! It is lethargy. And furthermore the audacity of those individuals who attempt to link their topic by six degrees of separation to caving somehow are not fooling anyone. We know you’re trying to mask the issue. Perhaps those individuals who simply want to have wild, broad discussions about anything and everything would be better served by a separate listserv but I hardly think they are a large enough group to sustain a separate list. Consequently they will come back and continue posting OT emails to Cavetex. We need regulation. Not because it is necessary to stifle entertaining discussions and keep caver thought and opinions in line, but because it is discourteous to the entire subscribership to let the posts become more than say 30% off topic. I enjoy some of these threads as much as Kara and others, and anyone who knows me knows how anti authoritarian my views are, but in the name of keeping our subscribers and preserving a place for caver information exchange on the internet please rein in these individuals. Wes~ List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:54:28 -0800 From: misskarabi...@yahoo.com To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: OT Off topic time, all the time. Oh yeah, we talk about caves, too. Please join in a lively discussion at o...@texascavers.com. If it is important to you, a caver, it is worthwhile to talk about. Like Caving, we're about the Journey, not the destination. Respect is key, so is participation. While I fear the divisive nature of this approach, I'm willing to give it a shot. There are better things to talk about, which most of us probably agree, (but never all of us) so let's get on with it. Please exercise your delete command with the list, o...@texascavers.com... where, should you need to, deleting rants from flamers is your prerogative, and renders flamers irrelevant, not subject matter. Now run along and play with your silly off-topic friends Kara ot-subscr...@texascavers.com to subscribe _ Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Hold on.
Are we trashing our unpaid volunteers who make Cavetex possible?
Maybe this is a joke and I am missing it.
Maybe we have a new volunteer to take over the duty of being a moderator.
Solutions are not composed of somebody should -- either I volunteer to
help___ or nothing makes more sense to me.
Maybe I am in a bad mood this morning and should just stop e-mailing.
Linda
wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote:.hmmessage P { margin:0px;
padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }
Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt
to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and
create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the
argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution
if you ask me.
Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be
done with it but this relies on too many people�s adherence to a logical
course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam.
This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this
new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of
censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list
populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic
rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this
listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax?
�While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going
to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out
a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it
continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of
this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took
care of itself in this matter.�
If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we
need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others
on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a ubiquitous
feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if they are posting
to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic. That is where the
moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread back on course. And
passive moderating does not work!
�These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I
do think that some of them should be answered off list to the person
directly.�
This is not a solution! It is lethargy. And furthermore the audacity of those
individuals who attempt to link their topic by six degrees of separation to
caving somehow are not fooling anyone. We know you�re trying to mask the
issue.
Perhaps those individuals who simply want to have wild, broad discussions
about anything and everything would be better served by a separate listserv but
I hardly think they are a large enough group to sustain a separate list.
Consequently they will come back and continue posting OT emails to Cavetex.
We need regulation. Not because it is necessary to stifle entertaining
discussions and keep caver thought and opinions in line, but because it is
discourteous to the entire subscribership to let the posts become more than say
30% off topic. I enjoy some of these threads as much as Kara and others, and
anyone who knows me knows how anti authoritarian my views are, but in the name
of keeping our subscribers and preserving a place for caver information
exchange on the internet please rein in these individuals.
Wes~
-
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:54:28 -0800
From: misskarabi...@yahoo.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: OT Off topic time, all the time. Oh yeah, we talk
about caves, too.
.ExternalClass DIV {;} Please join in a lively discussion at
o...@texascavers.com. If it is important to you, a caver, it is worthwhile to
talk about. Like Caving, we're about the Journey, not the destination. Respect
is key, so is participation. While I fear the divisive nature of this approach,
I'm willing to give it a shot. There are better things to talk about, which
most of us probably agree, (but never all of us) so let's get on with it.
Please exercise your delete command with the list, o...@texascavers.com...
where, should you need to, deleting rants from flamers is your prerogative,
and renders flamers irrelevant, not subject matter.
Now run along and play with your silly off-topic friends
Kara
ot-subscr...@texascavers.com to subscribe
-
Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista� + Windows Live�.
Start now!
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took care of itself in this matter. If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a ubiquitous feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if they are posting to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic. That is where the moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread back on course. And passive moderating does not work! These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I do think that some of them should be answered off list to the person directly. This is not a solution! It is lethargy. And furthermore the audacity of those individuals who attempt to link their topic by six degrees of separation to caving somehow are not fooling anyone. We know you're trying to mask the issue. Perhaps those individuals who simply want to have wild, broad discussions about anything and everything would be better served by a separate listserv but I hardly think they are a large enough group to sustain a separate list. Consequently they will come back and continue posting OT emails to Cavetex. We need regulation. Not because it is necessary to stifle entertaining discussions and keep caver
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Charles, I want to tell you that Wes is young and does not understand the word volunteer well. But upon thinking about it, I don't think there is any excuse for his comments. so let me just say -Many thanks for what you do. Linda Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took care of itself in this matter. If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a ubiquitous feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if they are posting to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic. That is where the moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread back on course. And passive moderating does not work! These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I do think that some of them should be answered off list to the person directly. This is not a solution! It is lethargy. And furthermore the audacity of those individuals who attempt to link their topic by six degrees of separation to caving somehow are not fooling anyone. We know you're trying to mask the issue. Perhaps those individuals who simply want to have wild, broad discussions about anything
RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Maybe we both are in a bad mood :) I didn't see your posting until I sent mine.
-Original Message-
From: Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net
To: wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com; Texascavers@texascavers.com
texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: 1/15/2008 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Hold on.
Are we trashing our unpaid volunteers who make Cavetex possible?
Maybe this is a joke and I am missing it.
Maybe we have a new volunteer to take over the duty of being a moderator.
Solutions are not composed of somebody should -- either I volunteer to
help___ or nothing makes more sense to me.
Maybe I am in a bad mood this morning and should just stop e-mailing.
Linda
wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote:.hmmessage P { margin:0px;
padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }
Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt
to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and
create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the
argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution
if you ask me.
Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be
done with it but this relies on too many peoples adherence to a logical course
action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This
sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new
listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of
censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list
populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic
rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this
listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax?
While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going
to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out
a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it
continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of
this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took
care of itself in this matter.
If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we
need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others
on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a ubiquitous
feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if they are posting
to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic. That is where the
moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread back on course. And
passive moderating does not work!
These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I do
think that some of them should be answered off list to the person directly.
This is not a solution! It is lethargy. And furthermore the audacity of those
individuals who attempt to link their topic by six degrees of separation to
caving somehow are not fooling anyone. We know youre trying to mask the issue.
Perhaps those individuals who simply want to have wild, broad discussions
about anything and everything would be better served by a separate listserv but
I hardly think they are a large enough group to sustain a separate list.
Consequently they will come back and continue posting OT emails to Cavetex.
We need regulation. Not because it is necessary to stifle entertaining
discussions and keep caver thought and opinions in line, but because it is
discourteous to the entire subscribership to let the posts become more than say
30% off topic. I enjoy some of these threads as much as Kara and others, and
anyone who knows me knows how anti authoritarian my views are, but in the name
of keeping our subscribers and preserving a place for caver information
exchange on the internet please rein in these individuals.
Wes~
-
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:54:28 -0800
From: misskarabi...@yahoo.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: OT Off topic time, all the time. Oh yeah, we talk
about caves, too.
.ExternalClass DIV {;} Please join in a lively discussion at
o...@texascavers.com. If it is important to you, a caver, it is worthwhile to
talk about. Like Caving, we're about the Journey, not the destination. Respect
is key, so is participation. While I fear the divisive nature of this approach,
I'm willing to give it a shot. There are better things to talk about, which
most of us probably agree, (but never all of us) so let's get on with it.
Please exercise your delete command with the list, o...@texascavers.com...
where, should you need to, deleting rants from flamers is your prerogative,
and renders flamers irrelevant, not subject matter.
Now run along and play
RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
one of those mornings -- minor crises just keep taking me out.
anyway, keep up the good work
and I do mean -- Thanks!
I really so appreciate your keeping the forum up.
Linda
Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Maybe we both are in a bad mood
:) I didn't see your posting until I sent mine.
-Original Message-
From: Linda Palit
To: wesley s ; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: 1/15/2008 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Hold on.
Are we trashing our unpaid volunteers who make Cavetex possible?
Maybe this is a joke and I am missing it.
Maybe we have a new volunteer to take over the duty of being a moderator.
Solutions are not composed of somebody should -- either I volunteer to
help___ or nothing makes more sense to me.
Maybe I am in a bad mood this morning and should just stop e-mailing.
Linda
wesley s wrote:.hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage {
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }Divisive to say the least! This is
like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators
will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of
the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the
system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me.
Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be
done with it but this relies on too many people�s adherence to a logical
course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam.
This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this
new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of
censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list
populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic
rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this
listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax?
�While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going
to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out
a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it
continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of
this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took
care of itself in this matter.�
If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we
need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others
on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a ubiquitous
feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if they are posting
to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic. That is where the
moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread back on course. And
passive moderating does not work!
�These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I
do think that some of them should be answered off list to the person
directly.�
This is not a solution! It is lethargy. And furthermore the audacity of those
individuals who attempt to link their topic by six degrees of separation to
caving somehow are not fooling anyone. We know you�re trying to mask the
issue.
Perhaps those individuals who simply want to have wild, broad discussions
about anything and everything would be better served by a separate listserv but
I hardly think they are a large enough group to sustain a separate list.
Consequently they will come back and continue posting OT emails to Cavetex.
We need regulation. Not because it is necessary to stifle entertaining
discussions and keep caver thought and opinions in line, but because it is
discourteous to the entire subscribership to let the posts become more than say
30% off topic. I enjoy some of these threads as much as Kara and others, and
anyone who knows me knows how anti authoritarian my views are, but in the name
of keeping our subscribers and preserving a place for caver information
exchange on the internet please rein in these individuals.
Wes~
-
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:54:28 -0800
From: misskarabi...@yahoo.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: OT Off topic time, all the time. Oh yeah, we talk
about caves, too.
.ExternalClass DIV {;} Please join in a lively discussion at
o...@texascavers.com. If it is important to you, a caver, it is worthwhile to
talk about. Like Caving, we're about the Journey, not the destination. Respect
is key, so is participation. While I fear the divisive nature of this approach,
I'm willing to give it a shot. There are better things to talk about, which
most of us probably agree, (but never all of us) so let's get on with it.
Please exercise your delete command with the list, o...@texascavers.com...
where, should
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Man oh Man... Good thing I am busy and don't have time to jive in... I agree with you whole hartedly and those rules were left overs from the origination of cavetex with Tom White after he set everything up... One thing I was wondering if you had a link on Texascavers.com to the archives. For research purposes. I noticed that a week or so ago I missed 2 emails from texascavers as I got them on hotmail and yahoo but not on caver.net Weird... I can certainly appreciate where you are right now... Bill Quoting Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org: Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took care of itself in this matter. If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a ubiquitous feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if they are posting to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic. That is where the moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread back on course. And passive moderating does not work! These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I do think that some of them should be answered off list to the person directly. This is not a solution! It is lethargy. And furthermore the audacity of those individuals who attempt to
[Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
No, Linda, it's not you. On this occasion I think Wes is way off-base. Leaving aside the not insignificant issues of volunteer labor and financing, Charles has offered a reasonable solution to the OT posting situation. Those wanting to chat about topics that are aside from the caving-related issues for which CaveTex (TexasCavers) was chartered now have a forum for that. It's optional. Sign up for it and start wailing away. You can be a member of both groups and it will be up to you to post your comments to the appropriate forum. George Veni has offered some excellent guide lines for which forum might be appropriate: Plastic bags: Discussing new uses in caving is cave related. Discussing their molecular structure and mileage if converted to oil isn't. Global warming: Is it or is it not happening and what are the general implications isn't cave related. Discussing what effects it might have on caves or what the climate record from research in caves shows about past climates is cave related. Of course, with some topics like this where strong opinions may lurk, it is important to keep the tone reasonable and non-flammable. Hybrid cars: Their mileage and value in general isn't cave related. If a hybrid off-road vehicle is built that is suitable for caving, then a review of its caving performance is appropriate. Far from being divisive, the creation of the OT list server should be a good thing for the caving community. Charles, I thank you for your time, energy, and financial assistance. Regardless of some previous comments, please be assured that the great majority do appreciate your efforts. ===Carl Kunath - Original Message - From: Linda Palit To: wesley s ; Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Hold on. Are we trashing our unpaid volunteers who make Cavetex possible? Maybe this is a joke and I am missing it. Maybe we have a new volunteer to take over the duty of being a moderator. Solutions are not composed of somebody should -- either I volunteer to help___ or nothing makes more sense to me. Maybe I am in a bad mood this morning and should just stop e-mailing. Linda wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took care of itself in this matter. If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a ubiquitous feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if they are posting to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic. That is where the moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread back on course. And passive moderating does not work! These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I do think that some of them should be answered off list to the person directly. This is not a solution! It is lethargy. And furthermore the audacity of those individuals who attempt to link their topic by six degrees of separation to caving somehow are not fooling anyone. We know you're trying to mask the issue. Perhaps those individuals who simply want to have wild, broad discussions about anything and everything would be better served by a separate listserv but I hardly think they are a large enough group to sustain a separate list. Consequently they will come back and continue posting OT emails to Cavetex. We need regulation. Not
RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Hi Charles, Boy, Wes is way out of line. I, personally, think you've shown remarkable restraint through this whole brouhaha and I commend you for it. You chastized me once for a political comment and I took that to heart. You may be interested to know that I found out yesterday from Don Cooper that Bill Steel is automatically deleting anything from him, me or David Locklear. Like I give a big rat's patootie. My happiness and self esteem does not rise and fall on whether or not somebody reads my e-mail. Oo-o-o-o-o! Others should not take a threat of this kind of censorship so seriously. After all, that's what I recommended recently for things you didn't want to read. Anyway, six months from now, nobody will care. Ten years (or maybe even one year) from now, nobody will remember.Thank you for taking on this thankless task and, since you won't take money, take my everlasting gratitude and support for the great, even-handed job you're doing. Louise List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:59:10 -0600From: wokka@justfamily.orgTo: mudmallet@hotmail.comCC: texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. CavetexWes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket.Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here.No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances.If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. ThanksCharles On 1/15/08, wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took care of itself in this matter. If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we need to find someone who is and
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Thanks Louise for the support. On 1/15/08, Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Charles, Boy, Wes is way out of line. I, personally, think you've shown remarkable restraint through this whole brouhaha and I commend you for it. You chastized me once for a political comment and I took that to heart. You may be interested to know that I found out yesterday from Don Cooper that Bill Steel is automatically deleting anything from him, me or David Locklear. Like I give a big rat's patootie. My happiness and self esteem does not rise and fall on whether or not somebody reads my e-mail. Oo-o-o-o-o! Others should not take a threat of this kind of censorship so seriously. After all, that's what I recommended recently for things you didn't want to read. Anyway, six months from now, nobody will care. Ten years (or maybe even one year) from now, nobody will remember. Thank you for taking on this thankless task and, since you won't take money, take my everlasting gratitude and support for the great, even-handed job you're doing. Louise -- Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:59:10 -0600 From: wo...@justfamily.org To: mudmal...@hotmail.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, *wesley s* mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took care of itself in
Fwd: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Bill, I'm not trying to stoke any fires or stir up any problems, I wanted you to be aware of this. You made a comment to me the other day in a private email. I didn't forward or mention it to anyone, I'm guessing that you have made this comment to someone else and it was then told to Don or forwarded. Hope all is well and Tammy says hey back :) BTW, you probably haven't heard, but Tammy and I have separated. The good news is, we have our best friends back, we were good friends before being married, and are again. Strange I know, we are both too hard headed to live with each other, but make great friends. Say howdy to Diana for me. -- Forwarded message -- From: Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Jan 15, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex To: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org Hi Charles, Boy, Wes is way out of line. I, personally, think you've shown remarkable restraint through this whole brouhaha and I commend you for it. You chastized me once for a political comment and I took that to heart. You may be interested to know that I found out yesterday from Don Cooper that Bill Steel is automatically deleting anything from him, me or David Locklear. Like I give a big rat's patootie. My happiness and self esteem does not rise and fall on whether or not somebody reads my e-mail. Oo-o-o-o-o! Others should not take a threat of this kind of censorship so seriously. After all, that's what I recommended recently for things you didn't want to read. Anyway, six months from now, nobody will care. Ten years (or maybe even one year) from now, nobody will remember. Thank you for taking on this thankless task and, since you won't take money, take my everlasting gratitude and support for the great, even-handed job you're doing. Louise -- List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:59:10 -0600 From: wo...@justfamily.org To: mudmal...@hotmail.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, *wesley s* mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
I had to pull the archives down, my software wasn't hashing or hiding the email addresses properly and someone complained. I tried out the google group archiving of an external email list, but they have similar problems. No one has asked for archives, but I do have them in the google groups. They are restricted to google users that are authorized by me. The link is http://groups.google.com/group/cavetex but I'll have to add you, and I think you have to use a google login (like a gmail account). There is a link off that page about contacting the list owner, give that a try. You can be my guinea pig and test it for me, I never got around to it :) Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, Bill Bentley-Webmail ca...@caver.net wrote: Man oh Man... Good thing I am busy and don't have time to jive in... I agree with you whole hartedly and those rules were left overs from the origination of cavetex with Tom White after he set everything up... One thing I was wondering if you had a link on Texascavers.com to the archives. For research purposes. I noticed that a week or so ago I missed 2 emails from texascavers as I got them on hotmail and yahoo but not on caver.net Weird... I can certainly appreciate where you are right now... Bill Quoting Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org: Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple.
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Thank you for the support :)
Charles
On 1/15/08, Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
one of those mornings -- minor crises just keep taking me out.
anyway, keep up the good work
and I do mean -- Thanks!
I really so appreciate your keeping the forum up.
Linda
*Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org* wrote:
Maybe we both are in a bad mood :) I didn't see your posting until I sent
mine.
-Original Message-
From: Linda Palit
To: wesley s ; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: 1/15/2008 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Hold on.
Are we trashing our unpaid volunteers who make Cavetex possible?
Maybe this is a joke and I am missing it.
Maybe we have a new volunteer to take over the duty of being a moderator.
Solutions are not composed of somebody should -- either I volunteer to
help___ or nothing makes more sense to me.
Maybe I am in a bad mood this morning and should just stop e-mailing.
Linda
wesley s wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage {
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } Divisive to say the least! This is
like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators
will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part
of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support
the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me.
Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and
be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical
course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively
spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation
of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be
accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be
done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not
appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort
of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to
be so lax?
While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not
going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll
send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If
it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of
all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the
community took care of itself in this matter.
If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we
need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the
others on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a
ubiquitous feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if
they are posting to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic.
That is where the moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread
back on course. And passive moderating does not work!
These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I
do think that some of them should be answered off list to the person
directly.
This is not a solution! It is lethargy. And furthermore the audacity of
those individuals who attempt to link their topic by six degrees of
separation to caving somehow are not fooling anyone. We know you're trying
to mask the issue.
Perhaps those individuals who simply want to have wild, broad discussions
about anything and everything would be better served by a separate listserv
but I hardly think they are a large enough group to sustain a separate list.
Consequently they will come back and continue posting OT emails to Cavetex.
We need regulation. Not because it is necessary to stifle entertaining
discussions and keep caver thought and opinions in line, but because it is
discourteous to the entire subscribership to let the posts become more than
say 30% off topic. I enjoy some of these threads as much as Kara and others,
and anyone who knows me knows how anti authoritarian my views are, but in
the name of keeping our subscribers and preserving a place for caver
information exchange on the internet please rein in these individuals.
Wes~
-
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:54:28 -0800
From: misskarabi...@yahoo.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: OT Off topic time, all the time. Oh yeah, we
talk about caves, too.
.ExternalClass DIV {;} Please join in a lively discussion at
o...@texascavers.com. If it is important to you, a caver, it is worthwhile
to talk about. Like Caving, we're about the Journey, not the destination.
Respect is key, so is participation. While I fear the divisive nature of
this approach, I'm willing to give it a shot. There are better things to
talk about, which most of us probably agree, (but never all of us) so let's
get on with it. Please exercise your delete command with the list,
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Perhaps those individuals who simply want to have wild, broad discussions about anything and everything would be better served by a separate listserv but I hardly think they are a large enough group to sustain a separate list. Consequently they will come back and continue posting OT emails to Cavetex. We need regulation. Not because it is necessary to stifle entertaining discussions and keep caver thought and opinions in line, but because it is discourteous to the entire subscribership to let the posts become more than say 30% off topic. I enjoy some of these threads as much as Kara and others, and anyone who knows me knows how anti authoritarian my views are, but in the name of keeping our subscribers and preserving a place for caver information exchange on the internet please rein in these individuals. Wes~ Does that mean you are volunteering to take on this task? Mary TZ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:54:28 -0800 From: misskarabi...@yahoo.com To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: OT Off topic time, all the time. Oh yeah, we talk about caves, too. Please join in a lively discussion at o...@texascavers.com. If it is important to you, a caver, it is worthwhile to talk about. Like Caving, we're about the Journey, not the destination. Respect is key, so is participation. While I fear the divisive nature of this approach, I'm willing to give it a shot. There are better things to talk about, which most of us probably agree, (but never all of us) so let's get on with it. Please exercise your delete command with the list, o...@texascavers.com... where, should you need to, deleting rants from flamers is your prerogative, and renders flamers irrelevant, not subject matter. Now run along and play with your silly off-topic friends Kara ot-subscr...@texascavers.com to subscribe Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. Start now!
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
O.K. gang quit wasting time, energy and effort on this. Get me a picture of a Toyota caving Action shot. It's on topic and for the common good. Ya buncha whiners!!! - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
charles thank you for one of the few reasoned responses to any of this hoo haa. Good Lord what a bunch of sourpusses we've become. As the author of two of the three actual caving posts in who knows how long - I'll be damned if I'm going to let others dictate my posts. geess the sound of steam pouring out of the top of my head, so thanks for the otherwise thankless service you perform Nancy
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Thanks for your support Charles On 1/15/08, Nancy Weaver nan...@io.com wrote: charles thank you for one of the few reasoned responses to any of this hoo haa. Good Lord what a bunch of sourpusses we've become. As the author of two of the three actual caving posts in who knows how long - I'll be damned if I'm going to let others dictate my posts. geess the sound of steam pouring out of the top of my head, so thanks for the otherwise thankless service you perform Nancy
Re: Fwd: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
I did tell Don Cooper (who I invited countless times to D/FW Grotto meetings, caving trips, caver Christmas parties, etc., and he never once came) that I had come to the point where I was just deleting anything posted by him, Locklear, Louise Powers, and Fritz Holt. Most of what they posted was just quips anyway. Bill Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Bill, I'm not trying to stoke any fires or stir up any problems, I wanted you to be aware of this. You made a comment to me the other day in a private email. I didn't forward or mention it to anyone, I'm guessing that you have made this comment to someone else and it was then told to Don or forwarded. Hope all is well and Tammy says hey back :) BTW, you probably haven't heard, but Tammy and I have separated. The good news is, we have our best friends back, we were good friends before being married, and are again. Strange I know, we are both too hard headed to live with each other, but make great friends. Say howdy to Diana for me. -- Forwarded message -- From: Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com Date: Jan 15, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex To: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org Hi Charles, Boy, Wes is way out of line. I, personally, think you've shown remarkable restraint through this whole brouhaha and I commend you for it. You chastized me once for a political comment and I took that to heart. You may be interested to know that I found out yesterday from Don Cooper that Bill Steel is automatically deleting anything from him, me or David Locklear. Like I give a big rat's patootie. My happiness and self esteem does not rise and fall on whether or not somebody reads my e-mail. Oo-o-o-o-o! Others should not take a threat of this kind of censorship so seriously. After all, that's what I recommended recently for things you didn't want to read. Anyway, six months from now, nobody will care. Ten years (or maybe even one year) from now, nobody will remember. Thank you for taking on this thankless task and, since you won't take money, take my everlasting gratitude and support for the great, even-handed job you're doing. Louise -- Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:59:10 -0600 From: wo...@justfamily.org To: mudmal...@hotmail.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, *wesley s* mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but
Re: Fwd: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
And no, I didn't know that Tammy and you separated. Hang in there. Bill Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Bill, I'm not trying to stoke any fires or stir up any problems, I wanted you to be aware of this. You made a comment to me the other day in a private email. I didn't forward or mention it to anyone, I'm guessing that you have made this comment to someone else and it was then told to Don or forwarded. Hope all is well and Tammy says hey back :) BTW, you probably haven't heard, but Tammy and I have separated. The good news is, we have our best friends back, we were good friends before being married, and are again. Strange I know, we are both too hard headed to live with each other, but make great friends. Say howdy to Diana for me. -- Forwarded message -- From: Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com Date: Jan 15, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex To: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org Hi Charles, Boy, Wes is way out of line. I, personally, think you've shown remarkable restraint through this whole brouhaha and I commend you for it. You chastized me once for a political comment and I took that to heart. You may be interested to know that I found out yesterday from Don Cooper that Bill Steel is automatically deleting anything from him, me or David Locklear. Like I give a big rat's patootie. My happiness and self esteem does not rise and fall on whether or not somebody reads my e-mail. Oo-o-o-o-o! Others should not take a threat of this kind of censorship so seriously. After all, that's what I recommended recently for things you didn't want to read. Anyway, six months from now, nobody will care. Ten years (or maybe even one year) from now, nobody will remember. Thank you for taking on this thankless task and, since you won't take money, take my everlasting gratitude and support for the great, even-handed job you're doing. Louise -- Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:59:10 -0600 From: wo...@justfamily.org To: mudmal...@hotmail.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, *wesley s* mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action.
Re: Fwd: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Thanks, things are good though, I just need to get back underground. On 1/15/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote: And no, I didn't know that Tammy and you separated. Hang in there. Bill Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Bill, I'm not trying to stoke any fires or stir up any problems, I wanted you to be aware of this. You made a comment to me the other day in a private email. I didn't forward or mention it to anyone, I'm guessing that you have made this comment to someone else and it was then told to Don or forwarded. Hope all is well and Tammy says hey back :) BTW, you probably haven't heard, but Tammy and I have separated. The good news is, we have our best friends back, we were good friends before being married, and are again. Strange I know, we are both too hard headed to live with each other, but make great friends. Say howdy to Diana for me. -- Forwarded message -- From: Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com Date: Jan 15, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex To: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org Hi Charles, Boy, Wes is way out of line. I, personally, think you've shown remarkable restraint through this whole brouhaha and I commend you for it. You chastized me once for a political comment and I took that to heart. You may be interested to know that I found out yesterday from Don Cooper that Bill Steel is automatically deleting anything from him, me or David Locklear. Like I give a big rat's patootie. My happiness and self esteem does not rise and fall on whether or not somebody reads my e-mail. Oo-o-o-o-o! Others should not take a threat of this kind of censorship so seriously. After all, that's what I recommended recently for things you didn't want to read. Anyway, six months from now, nobody will care. Ten years (or maybe even one year) from now, nobody will remember. Thank you for taking on this thankless task and, since you won't take money, take my everlasting gratitude and support for the great, even-handed job you're doing. Louise -- Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:59:10 -0600 From: wo...@justfamily.org To: mudmal...@hotmail.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, *wesley s* mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Like almost all aspects of this entire group you have the ones who work and the ones who complain about the way the job is done. I have a delete button just like everyone else and I use it quite a bit. Just how many people subscribe to cavetex??? How many people write stuff on cavetex (not that many) ? How many people complain(really not that many as to compared to how many subscribe I bet) ? How many people really care? What really concerns me is how we as a group is perceived by folks that are cavers from other areas states,countries , land owners etc etc Do you get my drift. Contrary to popular belief we are not a private forum, we are very much a public forum(anyone can subscribe).When you trash someones Volunteer efforts,religious beliefs etc etc what does that have to say about the organization as a whole.Remember something the person you pi-- off today could be rigging your pit tomorrow. He/she could be helping you to get out of a cave after an injury,maybe going fo! r gas or Bob Cowell/Treasurer Bexar Grotto/Land Steward Bracken Cave 5806 Cactus Sun San Antonio,Tx 78244-1260 HP 210-662-9171 Cell 210-724-9365 WP 210-655-2144
[Texascavers] Government Canyon Karst Project
Get out your calendars. There will be no Government Canyon Karst Project scheduled for January or February. The next scheduled weekend for the project is March 15th and 16th. I will send a reminder when we get closer to that date. -Marvin Miller
[ot_caving] [OT] Secrets of Google Earth
It's a ten minute video. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/975366/secrets_of_google_earth/ Simon - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] Attachments?
I wonder ... ??? Given this list is populated by only the texasCaver list members who don't want to hear about anything other than rocks and air (and a little water) in a particular configuration, What is the correlation between non-ot-list cavers and cavers who don't want attachments on their e-mails??? Who on this list would like to see attachments allowed here? Who not? - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [ot_caving] Attachments?
I have no problem with them, RD. I think the only ones who had a problem were those with dial-up. (Does anyone still have this!?) Mark From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Tue 1/15/2008 10:17 AM To: List: OT-TexasCavers Subject: [ot_caving] Attachments? I wonder ... ??? Given this list is populated by only the texasCaver list members who don't want to hear about anything other than rocks and air (and a little water) in a particular configuration, What is the correlation between non-ot-list cavers and cavers who don't want attachments on their e-mails??? Who on this list would like to see attachments allowed here? Who not? - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [ot_caving] Attachments?
Mixon still does and he also has the old Tandy TRS -80 and 300 baud modem too... :) Bill Quoting mark.al...@l-3com.com: I have no problem with them, RD. I think the only ones who had a problem were those with dial-up. (Does anyone still have this!?) Mark From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Tue 1/15/2008 10:17 AM To: List: OT-TexasCavers Subject: [ot_caving] Attachments? I wonder ... ??? Given this list is populated by only the texasCaver list members who don't want to hear about anything other than rocks and air (and a little water) in a particular configuration, What is the correlation between non-ot-list cavers and cavers who don't want attachments on their e-mails??? Who on this list would like to see attachments allowed here? Who not? - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [ot_caving] Attachments?
Howdy RD, I'd rather not have them, it would drive the bandwidth way up. It would be better for everyone to just have links. If its something that isnt online and you need it hosted, email it to me privately. Charles -Original Message- From: RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net To: List: OT-TexasCavers o...@texascavers.com Sent: 1/15/2008 10:17 AM Subject: [ot_caving] Attachments? I wonder ... ??? Given this list is populated by only the texasCaver list members who don't want to hear about anything other than rocks and air (and a little water) in a particular configuration, What is the correlation between non-ot-list cavers and cavers who don't want attachments on their e-mails??? Who on this list would like to see attachments allowed here? Who not? - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] Attachments?
I think we had photos attached just this last week on one of the cave lists. Quinta
Re: [ot_caving] Attachments?
Yes we did, Bill Bentley did, the server allows attachments, but the whole email is limited in size, that keeps people from posting VERY large emails with just text. The message size is limited to 30KB, that includes all text (including headers) and any attachments. The problem with attachments of any size is that they are multiplied by the number of subscribers as the emails go out to everyone. Realistically, I have enough bandwidth to be able to do attachments of just about any size, however, I don't want to start a bad precedent, attachments don't belong on email lists, its bed net-etiquette. I'll gladly host any file of just about any size for a caver and provide a link for everyone to use. I think that's a better solution, even if it causes me a bit more work. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, qui...@clearwire.net qui...@clearwire.net wrote: I think we had photos attached just this last week on one of the cave lists. Quinta
Re: [ot_caving] Attachments?
'Its okay with me. The only trouble I might see is taking up too much space on the server. -WaVy On Jan 15, 2008 10:17 AM, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: I wonder ... ??? Given this list is populated by only the texasCaver list members who don't want to hear about anything other than rocks and air (and a little water) in a particular configuration, What is the correlation between non-ot-list cavers and cavers who don't want attachments on their e-mails??? Who on this list would like to see attachments allowed here? Who not? - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] Attachments?
I love attachments especially photos. I agree with Alex, TexasCavers is the best. How I miss all of ya'll back in Texas. smiling in Seattle, Cindy Lee On Jan 15, 2008 8:17 AM, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: I wonder ... ??? Given this list is populated by only the texasCaver list members who don't want to hear about anything other than rocks and air (and a little water) in a particular configuration, What is the correlation between non-ot-list cavers and cavers who don't want attachments on their e-mails??? Who on this list would like to see attachments allowed here? Who not? - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Charles, I like the post content of the list just as it is, with few exceptions. I have not requested to be put on the OT list as I spend too much time on this one as it is. I will probably be much more silent by staying on topic, which may be a little difficult. I mostly enjoy commenting or wise-cracking on others posts and recounting earlier experiences as my caving is now very infrequent. Most of my caving (spelunking) was done in the 50's and 60's. I have no criticism of your work, please keep it up. Fritz _ From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:59 AM To: wesley s Cc: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took care of itself in this matter. If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a ubiquitous feature on listserves. Humans wander in their thoughts and if they are posting to a topic limited list they are bound to stray off topic. That is where the moderator comes in and steers the individual or thread back on course. And passive moderating does not work! These topics seem to run their courses over a short period of time, but I do think that some of them
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Thank you the support Fritz and I personally enjoy your wit on the mailing list, please do join the OT, just when you have a OT reply to something from the cavetex list, send it to the OT for us to enjoy :) Charles On 1/15/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, I like the post content of the list just as it is, with few exceptions. I have not requested to be put on the OT list as I spend too much time on this one as it is. I will probably be much more silent by staying on topic, which may be a little difficult. I mostly enjoy commenting or wise-cracking on others posts and recounting earlier experiences as my caving is now very infrequent. Most of my caving (spelunking) was done in the 50's and 60's. I have no criticism of your work, please keep it up. Fritz -- *From:* Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] *Sent:* Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:59 AM *To:* wesley s *Cc:* Texascavers@texascavers.com *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, *wesley s* mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and asking to please stop. If it continues, I'll remove you from the list, that simple. However, out of all of this, I have yet to receive any emails about it, I think the community took care of itself in this matter. If you are unable or unwilling to be a moderator for this listserv than we need to find someone who is and have this thing moderated like all the others on the great wide web. There is a reason why moderators are a
RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Charles, I didn't need much encouragement, so how do I get signed up for the OT list? I would hate to miss out on a few jabs at some of Locklear's and other's posts. I would hope that you could do it for me as I am not to adept on this new-fangled thing called a computer and my wife say's that I sure can't take instructions. Fritz, (Using the geezer excuse). _ From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:46 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Thank you the support Fritz and I personally enjoy your wit on the mailing list, please do join the OT, just when you have a OT reply to something from the cavetex list, send it to the OT for us to enjoy :) Charles On 1/15/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, I like the post content of the list just as it is, with few exceptions. I have not requested to be put on the OT list as I spend too much time on this one as it is. I will probably be much more silent by staying on topic, which may be a little difficult. I mostly enjoy commenting or wise-cracking on others posts and recounting earlier experiences as my caving is now very infrequent. Most of my caving (spelunking) was done in the 50's and 60's. I have no criticism of your work, please keep it up. Fritz _ From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:59 AM To: wesley s Cc: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of regulation of this listserv. Why, Charles Goldsmith, have you elected to be so lax? While I host this mailing list, I let you folks moderate it, I'm not going to. If I get enough people complaining about one or more users, I'll send out a warning email, outlining the rules and
Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Not a problem Fritz, you are now added, send emails to o...@texascavers.com On 1/15/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, I didn't need much encouragement, so how do I get signed up for the OT list? I would hate to miss out on a few jabs at some of Locklear's and other's posts. I would hope that you could do it for me as I am not to adept on this new-fangled thing called a computer and my wife say's that I sure can't take instructions. Fritz, (Using the geezer excuse). -- *From:* Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] *Sent:* Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:46 PM *To:* Fritz Holt *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Thank you the support Fritz and I personally enjoy your wit on the mailing list, please do join the OT, just when you have a OT reply to something from the cavetex list, send it to the OT for us to enjoy :) Charles On 1/15/08, *Fritz Holt* fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, I like the post content of the list just as it is, with few exceptions. I have not requested to be put on the OT list as I spend too much time on this one as it is. I will probably be much more silent by staying on topic, which may be a little difficult. I mostly enjoy commenting or wise-cracking on others posts and recounting earlier experiences as my caving is now very infrequent. Most of my caving (spelunking) was done in the 50's and 60's. I have no criticism of your work, please keep it up. Fritz -- *From:* Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] *Sent:* Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:59 AM *To:* wesley s *Cc:* Texascavers@texascavers.com *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, *wesley s* mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous has made it abundantly clear that they do not appreciate the off topic rants and threads and wishes there to be some sort of
RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Don, Can't you spell? They are winers. Oops, I'm not on the OT list yet. F -Original Message- From: Don Arburn [mailto:donarb...@mac.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:16 PM To: Texas Cavers Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex O.K. gang quit wasting time, energy and effort on this. Get me a picture of a Toyota caving Action shot. It's on topic and for the common good. Ya buncha whiners!!! - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex
Thanks, Charles. _ From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:21 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Not a problem Fritz, you are now added, send emails to o...@texascavers.com On 1/15/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, I didn't need much encouragement, so how do I get signed up for the OT list? I would hate to miss out on a few jabs at some of Locklear's and other's posts. I would hope that you could do it for me as I am not to adept on this new-fangled thing called a computer and my wife say's that I sure can't take instructions. Fritz, (Using the geezer excuse). _ From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:46 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Thank you the support Fritz and I personally enjoy your wit on the mailing list, please do join the OT, just when you have a OT reply to something from the cavetex list, send it to the OT for us to enjoy :) Charles On 1/15/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, I like the post content of the list just as it is, with few exceptions. I have not requested to be put on the OT list as I spend too much time on this one as it is. I will probably be much more silent by staying on topic, which may be a little difficult. I mostly enjoy commenting or wise-cracking on others posts and recounting earlier experiences as my caving is now very infrequent. Most of my caving (spelunking) was done in the 50's and 60's. I have no criticism of your work, please keep it up. Fritz _ From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto: wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:59 AM To: wesley s Cc: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OTtex vs. Cavetex Wes, this mailing has never been moderated, even long before I volunteered to host it. Back when Bill Bentley asked for a volunteer to take over it, I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who did volunteer. I host this list out of my own pocket, I'm not paid to do it, and it certainly does cost me a few dollars a month to do so, plus time spent taking care of the few administrative tasks. I even paid for the transfer of the domain from Bill, reimbursed him for payments he had pre-paid on the hosting, and also picked up the old cavetex.net domain when it became available, all out of my own pocket. Wes, I've never seen you offer to donate any cash to help with this cause, a few people have, and I've politely turned them down. I do this as a service to the caving community, it's my way of giving back. Why didn't you volunteer to host and admin this list when asked? I'm damned well not going to be told how to run this list by a single person. If the community as a whole wants to change things, we will, but I won't moderate it, someone else will have to step up to host, admin and then moderate. You don't dictate to me how things are run, try it again and you'll be gone quicker than you can say huh. That goes for anyone else that wants to complain how I host it. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm mostly an easy going guy, but until someone else puts the work into it, I'm not going to be criticized on how things are done here. No one has asked to be unsubscribed from this list to be put on the OT one, it's setup as a secondary list for the people that want to use it. I did not and will not copy the subscriber list from this list over to OT, it will have to be a voluntary subscription on everyones part that wants to join in at OT. Everyone, please review the recommendations on http://texascavers.com/about.html about posting here, that includes this email thread, but I'm going to post this anyway to everyone, just so that they know the facts. Also, keep in mind, I'm not asking for money, I never have and probably never will, I just want everyone to be aware of the circumstances. If you have questions about any of this, please reply off list to me. Thanks Charles On 1/15/08, wesley s mudmal...@hotmail.com wrote: Divisive to say the least! This is like a political party schism. The attempt to purge the unwanted instigators will only weaken the group as a whole and create more animosity on the part of the fence sitters who stayed out of the argument but generally support the system. This is a really half assed solution if you ask me. Yes we could ask every caver to delete his/her inbox full of OT posts and be done with it but this relies on too many people's adherence to a logical course action. Furthermore it is, as has already been stated, effectively spam. This sort of activity has been tolerated far too long and the creation of this new listserv is pandering to the perpetrators in order to not be accused of censorship. Unfortunately censoring is exactly what should be done. The list populous
TexasCaver
Thank you Mark, the outpouring of thanks I've received today was very nice. Speaking of the TexasCaver and a thankless job of the editor, great job on the newsletters, I enjoy them immensely and need to renew my membership. I'll ask on here, because I know its been a touchy subject on the main list before, but why in hell do we not go to an electronic format? That would save you a lot of time, printing and mailing them, and we would get full color magazines. This is after all 2008 and printed material only costs more money and time. Would a boycott be in order to get some older, hard-headed people to embrace the technology of today? Charles, grandmaster of soap-boxing today On 1/15/08, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentence, Charles. In all of my years of being involved with Scouting, soccer, softball, caving, and other volunteer activities, there's never a shortage of critics. A shortage of doers/volunteers? Always, but never a shortage of folks criticizing how you do something. Creating the On Topic and Off Topic list was brilliant. Let everyone else self moderate by hitting the delete key. You're doing a superb, yet, thankless job and we all appreciate you for providing this service. Criticism is all too common, but, pats on the back are, often times, too infrequent. Much like being the *TEXAS CAVER* editor! 8^) (A smirking) Mark -- *From:* Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] *Sent:* Tue 1/15/2008 12:52 PM *To:* Kara Savvas *Cc:* Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com *Subject:* Re: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? There are always people who complain, that want change, and most aren't willing to help with it. I probably went off on Wes a bit hard, but it struck a nerve and I'm having a bad year so far, so I vented a bit. He deserved it, but probably not as harsh as I did it. Splitting the list is probably an easy way out, shutting up the complainers, but I'm hoping that it will actually drive more people to our Texas caving chatter here on either of the lists, making us grow more. Growing these lists also helps out our Grotto's and Regional groups (TCMA, TSA, TCC, etc). If people have ideas that will help us grow as a community, I'm game and will assist where I can. Charles On 1/15/08, Kara Savvas misskarabi...@yahoo.com wrote: I don't need consoling! :-) I'm doing just fine. I'll ask again, why aren't people saying this on Texascavers? I respect some of the objectors very much, too, but wish they would get over themselves for a minute. I don't think the uglyness came from any particular subject, it came from a FEW INDIVIDUALS. I considered a Poll, but I think that would be beat back considerably. But I also think there are more pro-OT people on Texascavers than not. This is the bottom line for me - I think there is a kind of an arrogant move to try to 'get rid' of high volume posters that some don't find to be serious enough about caving. And that bothers me. With a little perspective, its is just all so silly. But I say, give Cavetex what it asks for, and maybe they will come around? Or not. But the experiment is worthwhile. k - Original Message From: Johnson, Russ (ATX) russ.k.john...@westonsolutions.com To: imoca...@comcast.net; misskarabi...@yahoo.com; Scott Nicholson csnichol...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:55:50 AM Subject: FW: [ot_caving] [OT] Re: anyone else here yet? Alex and Kara, Fear not, cavetex will be back. I am hopeful that OT-tex will be abandoned in time. No plans for me to subscribe. The public beat-downs on OT postings happen periodically. I have a lot of respect some of those who have complained, and their right to express themselves. And I appreciate fully the modern torture of having to wade through more email than any one mind should have to endure. It is healthy and appropriate for this complaint to arise every so often, especially if things get ugly as they recently have. OT postings will get quiet and remain so for a bit. Then they will resume a tolerable normal background noise level...as it should be. Then one day someone will get under another's saddle and this will all repeat. This cycle has repeated several times since the days of the primordial Cavetex list, it is natural. However, for the reasons Alex so eloquently expresses below, the curmudgeons should not be allowed to run the rest of us off. It is our list too. Frankly, those interested in (or at least willing to delete) the OT postings outweigh the ones complaining. So I encourage everyone to let OT-tex die on the vine, not the real caver email server. I surely thought I had heard enough on the evolution-religion thread ... but just then someone posts an
