[ot_caving] The new diesel Jeep Cherokee
In this month's issue of Diesel Power is a must read article on the new diesel Jeep Cherokee. They show you step by step how to convert it into a good off-road vehicle. They give it a lift, put in some skid plates, a big bumper with winch, and some new wheels and tires. They plan to continue this project in next month's issue. David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] caver news - Charles Fromen
On the cover of this month's issue of Travel Leisure magazine is a photo of Zihuatenejo Bay. The house in the center of the photo on the beach belongs to Houston Caver, Charles Fromen. You will need a magnifying glass to see the details of the house, but it gives you an idea what a wonderful place he has. David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] PSA--Need a job--NASA is hiring
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 07:59:33 -0500 From: Jackie Hoell hoe...@georgetown.edu My sister works in HR for NASA, at Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, AL. Debbie said NASA, as an agency, is looking for freshouts which means grads who have graduated no earlier than May 2006. NASA is in need of young engineers, scientists, computer/IT, business folks, agency wide! Anyone applying could work at any of the NASA Centers, not just here in Huntsville. The Recruiting Manager for Marshall Space Flight Center, Chrissa Hall. If you want to communicate with my sister, I will be happy to send you her email, if you contact me. Jackie - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] PSA--Need a job--NASA is hiring
Huntsville, Now that's the real center of the caving universe. Home to the NSS, strong grotto, 10,000 caves within a few hours of the place, and you can actually be a real rocket scientist. How cool is that. Geary -Original Message- From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 7:29 AM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] PSA--Need a job--NASA is hiring Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 07:59:33 -0500 From: Jackie Hoell hoe...@georgetown.edu My sister works in HR for NASA, at Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, AL. Debbie said NASA, as an agency, is looking for freshouts which means grads who have graduated no earlier than May 2006. NASA is in need of young engineers, scientists, computer/IT, business folks, agency wide! Anyone applying could work at any of the NASA Centers, not just here in Huntsville. The Recruiting Manager for Marshall Space Flight Center, Chrissa Hall. If you want to communicate with my sister, I will be happy to send you her email, if you contact me. Jackie - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] a new LED flashlight
Here is a $ 370 LED flashlight: http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/02/3gat21.jpg I think its greatest feature is durability. It does not look waterproof or even water resistant. I am certain this would not be a good caving light, as mud or grit can get into it. However it is small, lightweight and bright, so you could carry it in a tiny container for emergencies. I will not be testing this one. David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] the flying humans
Most of us have now seen the flying humans on the internet videos. But we haven't seen one land yet. That feat is going to happen very soon. One of the top flying humans is planning to land in Las Vegas in 6 months in front of a huge audience. His plan is to dive nearly vertical into a huge funnel which is placed about 300 feet above the ground and held in place by portable towers similar to radio antennas. These towers will be supported by cables anchored to the ground. The funnel will gradually curve as it narrows so that at the bottom it is at ground level. I presume he will be able to belly flop onto the surface of the tube and skid to a stop, kind of like a kid in a water-slide. But I don't see how he will come to a gradual stop where he can land feet first. If he can add the element of the guy with all the roller-skates attached to his body, then he will be able to land safer, but that will screw up his aerodynamics which is critical when entering the funnel. David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] The new Toyota A-Bat
You are very likely to see this hybrid SUV at the 2012 TCR: http://jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2007/12/Toyota%20A-BAT%20Concept%20Truck.jpg One interesting feature is the bumper slides out to reveal a hidden compartment to store jumper cables and gloves and a tow-rope. Another interesting feature is the bed opens up to hold a full sheet of plywood or a twin-size mattress. David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] various topics
It is my opinion that there is just a ton of stuff to talk about. I would like to see people post interesting things. For example, the 2008 Toyota Landcruiser has a feature that no other car has. It is called Electronic Crawl Control. When going off-roading, you can drive 3 very slow crawling speeds with just the push of a button. 1 mph or 2 mph or 3.2 mph. It is sort of like cruise-control for off-roaders. If that feature works and is reliable, that good be the coolest thing in years. We could drive all over the Sierra Madres in a relaxing luxury like never before. David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: Having a blast in POSTOJNA JAMA
Thanks, Katie. That confirms the story that I heard when we visited the cave in October 2005. It is pertinent because we are taking a group back there in September. Thanks for tracking this down. DirtDoc - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] a new Houston cave club ???
I did not open this web-site because I am at work. It looks suspicious. http://www.clubcave.com David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] a new Houston cave club ???
LOL, it's not spelunking in the traditional meaning, its an adult only website :) Charles On 1/17/08, David Locklear dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: I did not open this web-site because I am at work. It looks suspicious. http://www.clubcave.com David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] a new Houston cave club ???
David, it's just as well you didn't! This appears to be a Swingers' club with cave-motif interior decoration. Roger
Re: [ot_caving] a new Houston cave club ???
I don't know about that Roger - I think it could provide information far more interesting than flashlights and LEDs. I mean, if you thought some of the south of the border reports of late were a little tedious - this could be a fair reprieve! Check it out, David! Check it out! -WaV On Jan 17, 2008 12:50 PM, CaverArch cavera...@aol.com wrote: David, it's just as well you didn't! This appears to be a Swingers' club with cave-motif interior decoration. Roger -- See AOL's top rated recipeshttp://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304and easy ways to stay in shapehttp://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aoltop000303for winter.
Re: [ot_caving] a new Houston cave club ???
Oh, I only meant that it was probably for the best that David didn't try to open the web site at work! I wonder if they offer a discount to NSS members? Roger I don't know about that Roger - -WaV On Jan 17, 2008 12:50 PM, CaverArch cavera...@aol.com wrote: David, it's just as well you didn't! This appears to be a Swingers' club with cave-motif interior decoration. Roger
[ot_caving] 2009 Toyota Prius
It may be less than 2 years away, but Toyota is probably going to be the first to offer a plug-in Hybrid car: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4227944.html - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] Evil Knievel
On the last page of this month's issue of Outside Magazine is a very nice article about Evil Knievel. - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] Evil Knievel
This is a cool video of Federal Express Air Traffic on a typical day. http://news.van.fedex.com/node/3689 This video details the scope of the FedEx network over a 24-hour period. FedEx Express is the world's largest express transportation company, providing delivery to every U.S. address and to more than 220 countries and territories. Quoting David Locklear dlocklea...@gmail.com: On the last page of this month's issue of Outside Magazine is a very nice article about Evil Knievel. - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] Evil Knievel
That Fedex video was very interesting. On 1/17/08, Bill Bentley-Webmail ca...@caver.net wrote: This is a cool video of Federal Express Air Traffic on a typical day. http://news.van.fedex.com/node/3689 This video details the scope of the FedEx network over a 24-hour period. FedEx Express is the world's largest express transportation company, providing delivery to every U.S. address and to more than 220 countries and territories.
[Texascavers] More on DepthX results :
DEPTHX Robot Dives Deep for Sinkhole Slime STATUS REPORT Date Released: Thursday, January 17, 2008 Source: _Astrobiology Magazine_ (http://www.astrobio.net/) By Henry Bortman In May, researchers successfully conducted the third and final field test of the autonomous underwater robot, _DEPTHX_ (http://www.stoneaerospace.com/products-pages/products-DEPTHX.php) . Their objective was to explore Cenote Zacaton, the world's deepest water-filled sinkhole. Zacaton lies near one end of a chain of sinkholes stretching nearly half a mile across Rancho La Azufroza (Sulfur Ranch), located in northeastern Mexico, roughly 20 miles from the Gulf Coast. Even without the sinkholes, the biology of the region would make a fascinating subject of study. The landscape is dotted with a muddle of tropical deciduous trees and bromeliads growing side-by-side with agaves and cacti typical of desert climates. Each day, as dawn approaches, a flock of green parrots takes wing, shrieking and squawking as they circle the rim of Zacaton. Later in the day, the air grows thick with butterflies, more than a dozen different species, some with wingspans exceeding six inches. It is a languid, sun-drenched setting. But what lies below ground, in the dark waters of Zacaton, where only microbial life can survive, is what has piqued the interest of scientists and engineers from Stone Aerospace, the University of Texas at Austin, Carnegie Mellon University's Robotics Institute, the Colorado School of Mines, and other institutions, who make up the DEPTHX team. The DEPTHX project was funded by NASA's ASTEP (Astrobiology Science and Technology for Exploring Planets) program. ASTEP projects typically involve both technology and science components. The robot incorporates a number of innovative technologies. It is the first underwater vehicle that can be placed in an enclosed water-filled space and, without any previous knowledge, safely navigate its way around, build a three-dimensional map of its environment, and collect samples of scientific interest -- all without human intervention. DEPTHX enabled investigators to explore an otherwise inaccessible ecosystem that extends far below the Earth's surface. The robot had a mechanical arm that could be extended 2 to 3 meters (6.5 to 10 feet); at its end was a spring-loaded penetrator that could sense when it came within a few inches of the cenote's wall. Once in position, it grabbed a gob of the microbial biofilm that coats the entire interior surface of the sinkhole, and brought it back to the surface for later laboratory analysis. Positioning the 1.5-ton robot precisely -- not too far from the uneven surface of the cenote wall to obtain a sample, but not so close that the penetrator slams into rock and gets bent -- was challenging, particularly when the robot was doing its own navigation. But DEPTHX successfully obtained half a dozen samples of microbial Zacaton wall slime. The deepest of these came from close to the bottom of the cenote, at a depth of 272 meters (892 feet). Finding the bottom of Zacaton was another of DEPTHX's accomplishments. Previously, no-one had been able to determine for certain how deep the cenote was. As it turns out, the bottom is sloped, ranging from 315 meters (1033 feet) at its high end down to 320 meters (1050 feet). And it may go even deeper. At the low end of the cenote, the robot found what appeared to be a narrow tunnel that extended outward, and perhaps farther downward. Because the research team was pressed for time, however, and because they wanted to make sure they could safely get the craft back to the surface, they told DEPTHX to come home without exploring the tunnel. John Spear, the lead microbiologist on the DEPTHX team, speculates that this deep channel is connected to an underground system of thermally heated water. About one million years ago, geologists believe, the Zacaton region was a site of intense hydrothermal activity, not unlike Mammoth Hot Springs in present-day Yellowstone National Park. Although thermal activity around Zacaton has calmed down considerably since those fiery days, there are clear signs that something is still stirring underground: a pervasive scent of sulfur hovers around the cenote, and Zacaton's water is a constant 30 degrees C (86 degrees F). In fact, says Spears, one of the surprising discoveries made by DEPTHX is that the temperature in Zacaton is constant all the way through its thousand-foot water column. He expected to find temperature variation with depth, a more common scenario. If we stuck DepthX in a place like Yellowstone Lake, for example, you would see gradients of change in temperature. It would probably be warm on the surface, cold in the middle, and then down at the thermal vents warm again, Spear said. But something is keeping Zacaton unusually well-mixed. I asked
[Texascavers] deep caves list
The following list of deepest caves in the world appears in the Oct/ Nov 2007 issue of Regards, the magazine of the Wallonian Speleological Society. 1. Voronja - Krubera (Georgia) 2,170 meters (I think I've seen 2190 elsewhere) 2. Snezhnaya - Mezhonnogo - Illjuzia (Georgia) 1750 3. Gouffre Mirolda / Lucien Bonelier (France) 1733 4. Lamprechtsofen Vogelschacht Weg Schacht (Austria) 1632 5. Reseau de Jean Bernard (France) 1602 6. Torca del Cerro del Cuevon / Torca de las Saxifragas (Spain) 1589 7. Sarma (Georgia) 1543 8. Cehi 2 (la Vendetta) / Ceki 2 (Slovenia) 1533 9. Shakhta Vjacheslava Pantijukhina (Georgia) 1508 10. Sima de la Cornisa (Spain) 1507 Some of those names are subject to vagaries of transliteration, and some may be subject to typos, too. Georgia is of course the country, not the state. Georgia seems to really hot lately. --Bill Mixon -- You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] RE: deep caves list
Bill Mixon posted: The following list of deepest caves in the world appears in the Oct/Nov 2007 issue of Regards, the magazine of the Wallonian Speleological Society. 1. Voronja - Krubera (Georgia) 2,170 meters (I think I've seen 2190 elsewhere) 2. Snezhnaya - Mezhonnogo - Illjuzia (Georgia) 1750 3. Gouffre Mirolda / Lucien Bonelier (France) 1733 4. Lamprechtsofen Vogelschacht Weg Schacht (Austria) 1632 5. Reseau de Jean Bernard (France) 1602 6. Torca del Cerro del Cuevon / Torca de las Saxifragas (Spain) 1589 7. Sarma (Georgia) 1543 8. Cehi 2 (la Vendetta) / Ceki 2 (Slovenia) 1533 9. Shakhta Vjacheslava Pantijukhina (Georgia) 1508 10. Sima de la Cornisa (Spain) 1507 According to Bob Gulden's list http://www.caverbob.com/wdeep.htm, Voronja is indeed 2190 m deep, with Alexander Klimchouk given as the source and October 2007 as the date. Bob also lists Jamski sustav Velebita (Croatia) as no. 2 at 1926 m deep, with a date of December 2007. He gives Snezhnaya as 1753 m (September 2007). In addition, Gouffre Mirolda is placed at no. 5 with a depth of 1626 m. There is controversy over the depth because the reported 1733 m is below the water table, yet the bottom of the cave is not a sump. 1626 m is the theoretical maximum dry cave depth. Finally, Cehi 2 is given as no. 11 at 1502 m, with a date of September 2007. As always, things change rapidly with the deepest caves, and there are controversies and competing claims. It's still pretty amazing that the top ten deepest caves are all over 1500 m deep! Mark Minton
[ot_caving] Chinese made goods
For centuries or longer, consumers purchased goods made by slavery. Even here in the states, our economy benefited from this for over 300 years. Now we by our goods from China. These goods are made in sweat shops by young and old people with little concern for their safety or well-being. They are paid pennies for the work they do, while some CEO in Beijing or the U.S. makes millions of dollars per year or even more. I ask you. How can we criticize our ancestors for supporting the concept of slavery, when today we buy something made by someone who is essentially a slave by modern standards? I feel like we are all a bunch of hypocrites. David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] Chinese made goods
Agreed David, but it can't be helped, I'm guessing here, but at least 98% of everything you consume comes from that labor somehow. Maybe indirectly, but it does. Maybe the car you drive was made here in the US, but was all parts of it? And the machines to make those parts, were they made here as well? Our society allows it to happen, and it's nothing one country or government can take on, a lot of those sweatshops are in communist countries. I wish there was an easy answer Charles On 1/17/08, David Locklear dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: For centuries or longer, consumers purchased goods made by slavery. Even here in the states, our economy benefited from this for over 300 years. Now we by our goods from China. These goods are made in sweat shops by young and old people with little concern for their safety or well-being. They are paid pennies for the work they do, while some CEO in Beijing or the U.S. makes millions of dollars per year or even more. I ask you. How can we criticize our ancestors for supporting the concept of slavery, when today we buy something made by someone who is essentially a slave by modern standards? I feel like we are all a bunch of hypocrites. David Locklear - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] ON TOPIC!! CAVES!!!: Re POSTOJNA JAMA
I was the advisor at UT for a Croatian PhD who approves of cavers --
Nikola Petkovic. I asked him, now a professor in Rijeka, to research
the question of What really happened in Postojna Jama? Below his
answer and email. Caving in the news . . . . feel free to use this
information with credit. might be a nice news bit in some
publication. He is not a geologist, so his surmise in the last
paragraph is probably wrong -- some underlying rock was probably
exposed and its surface damaged/sealed by the fire, but at least we
know where the limestone went. And Nikola is fully aware of using
irony in discussing Yugoslavian partisans. THAT BIT IS A JOKE,
people, what folks in 1944 would have thought in doing this.
Enjoy,
Katie Arens
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:01:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Texascavers] POSTOJNA JAMA
From: npetko...@ffri.hr
To: Katherine Arens k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu
Dear Katie,
what I was able to find out so far is the following:
In WW II (1944) the German Army had fuel storage (gasoline) where today
the final tourist-train station is located (at the main exit out of
the cave). It
was a shitload of fuel, meant to provide for all their Northern Adriatic
troups, from Trieste to Rijeka. The reason for storing the fuel there, was
a security one--to secure the fuel from a possible (and by 1944 quite
likely to happen) air attack. The entrance to the storage was closely
watched by guards. However, The Vojko Brigade (Vojko is the name of the
Partisan commander-in-chief), driven by the ferocity of all historical
winners, managed to sneak into the cave (on April 23rd 1944) and blew the
fuel up. The Partisans used an old passage--not a natural one but a man
made that led from Crna jama (The Black Cave) to Postojnska jama (The
Postojna Cave). The underground passage was half way covered and therefore
invisible for the Germans. Since it was not completely opened, they
decided not to draw it onto their map.
I am aware that your main question was not about hows but whats, but my ex
Yugoslavian national pride won. I was not about to be silent about my Partisan
ancestors' heroism, wisdom, bravery, and explosive competence (in beating
up the already dead horse by mid 44, but Germans are Germans, regardless
how weak they might be)!
What it didi to the cave was the following: The fire that followed the
blast lasted for a week. The stalactites fell off (those that grew from the
top of the cave)and, after their detachment they covered the walls of the
cave. And that prevented the growth of new stalacites and stalagmites.
Therefore in that particular part of The Postojna Cave you can still see
the Black rocks--previously part of the Black Cave.
What I get from the explanation is that the explosion followed by fire,
aside from the described processes involving the stalactites and
stalagmites, sort of fused the two caves into one integral space.
I hope this helps.
nikola
--
Katherine Arens (Professor) Office: EPS 3.128; Phone:
(512) 232-6363
Dept. of Germanic Studies Dept. Phone: (512)471-4123
1 University Station C3300 FAX (512) 471-4025
University of Texas at Austin Bldg.Location: E.P. Schoch 3.102
Austin, TX 78712-0304 k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu
-. .-
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-
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Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Back in 2004, we voted to reduce the TSS dues to $15 from $20 for single memberships as the Texas Caver was not regularly being published. It has since been raised back to $20. Jerry. In a message dated 1/16/2008 2:37:01 P.M. Central Standard Time, mark.al...@l-3com.com writes: That's not a bad idea, Fritz. Going from $20 a year to $25 wouldn't break anyone's household budget. Keeping the family membership at $30 seems reasonable. When was the last time dues were raised? Does anyone here know? Thanks, Mark **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Yes, $1200 was approved for the Honeycreek Project and this will cover all costs. The work weekend for this is April 12th and they (Bill Steele and Kurt Menking) could use everyone. Bring loppers and saws, as well, as they'll be cutting cedar, too. The CBSP meeting was indeed last weekend and we had an excellent turnout. The TSA also made a sizeable donation towards the ICS 2009 fund and is providing and lining up a lot of volunteers. They (Travis Scott) especially needs trip leaders. Be sure to put he word out to your Grotto members! As you can seem the TSA has been very busy, supportive, and active and, hopefully, once again matters! Mark (TC Editor, TSA Secretary/Cheerleader) P.S. - We're working on the bulk mail thing. I'll post the meeting minutes here and at the TSA website next week. I/We would LOVE to have you back RD! You're a great caver, person, volunteer, and you get things done! We need more like you in the TSA. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 6:19 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: o...@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver The TSA does have funds for land/cave purchase, its invested currently. I don't know if it was approved, but I do know a grant was put forth towards the TSA for $1200 to help improve Honey Creek entrance. The next meeting for TSA will be at CBSP I think, that alone will support that project, driving people there. I'm not an active member of TSA, but I have been a member for a couple of years and these are the types of things that I've seen happening and it's why I'm a member. To each his own. On 1/16/08, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: Each grotto has (or should have) a newsletter. The projects are the result of individual initiative and followup, and could be done without the help of any organization. I am not aware of the TSA purchasing land/caves. I know the TCMA and TCC do, and I support both of those organizations. Honey Creek, CBSP: see projects above. TSS is a private corporation, as far as I know. Please correct me if I am mistaken. TCR is a stand-alone affair/organization/happening. The Spring Convention is a worthy endeavor, certainly worthy of support, but not $20-30 per year from people who might not even be able to make it there. I don't see that the TSA actually does a lot. You haven't yet convinced me. FWIW I am not a TSA member, I once was but chose not to renew several years ago. I would consider rejoining and becoming involved if I could convince myself that it served a purpose not covered either by individuals who choose to take on tasks for the loive of it, or by other caving organizations; and if I could feel that the dues justified the returns. It doesn't count but my vote would be to have an electronic newsletter available to those who don't want paper, and for a considerable break in the dues, as was mentioned in a previous post. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 5:48 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: o...@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver I'll chime in here, as a TSA member and what I see coming out of this organization. Aside from the obvious, the newsletter, the TSA also has several projects that are on-going. Land purchase, helping with Honey Creek, CBSP, TSS, TCR/Spring Convention and others. I'm sure that I didn't get nearly all of the things, but from what I've seen, the TSA does a lot and could do more with extra funding, saving cash on doing bulk mails. Charles
[Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz _ From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz _ From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. _ From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz
Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Fritz, you copied this over to texascavers instead of ot, not a big deal on this discussion, but we gotta watch what is cross-posted, many of us have been pretty open about things that are generally not discussed on tc and said a few things that would be hurtful to some thanks Charles On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz
RE: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Charles, Although you signed me up for the OT site I'm not sure that I understand how to differentiate between the two and then post to the correct one. I added texas cavers to my reply to RD, not knowing that I was cross posting. I presume that I can tell which site the post is coming from and reply to the individual on that post. I would assume that the question asked of me and my response concerning TSA membership and dues was on topic. Sorry if I goofed and I certainly didn't realize that I said anything that would be hurtful or offensive to anyone. I will pay attention and learn how to do this correctly. Fritz -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 2:26 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, you copied this over to texascavers instead of ot, not a big deal on this discussion, but we gotta watch what is cross-posted, many of us have been pretty open about things that are generally not discussed on tc and said a few things that would be hurtful to some thanks Charles On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless
Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
It's pretty easy :) Most mail clients with this list will play nice if you hit reply to all, it will list all email addresses properly, you can then delete any that don't need to be sent to. If you just hit reply, it will just reply to the poster in a private message. You didn't say anything out of the ordinary, and thankfully someone had trimmed the original emails on that thread, somethings I said shouldn't be copied over to that main list. No harm done, but I want to prevent any more problems on that main list by someone accidently cross-posting. Thanks Fritz On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, Although you signed me up for the OT site I'm not sure that I understand how to differentiate between the two and then post to the correct one. I added texas cavers to my reply to RD, not knowing that I was cross posting. I presume that I can tell which site the post is coming from and reply to the individual on that post. I would assume that the question asked of me and my response concerning TSA membership and dues was on topic. Sorry if I goofed and I certainly didn't realize that I said anything that would be hurtful or offensive to anyone. I will pay attention and learn how to do this correctly. Fritz -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 2:26 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, you copied this over to texascavers instead of ot, not a big deal on this discussion, but we gotta watch what is cross-posted, many of us have been pretty open about things that are generally not discussed on tc and said a few things that would be hurtful to some thanks Charles On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application.
RE: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Thanks for your help Charles and I will endeavor to post correctly. I try to remember to delete unnecessary parts of a string for readers as I did on this one. Fritz -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:06 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It's pretty easy :) Most mail clients with this list will play nice if you hit reply to all, it will list all email addresses properly, you can then delete any that don't need to be sent to. If you just hit reply, it will just reply to the poster in a private message. You didn't say anything out of the ordinary, and thankfully someone had trimmed the original emails on that thread, somethings I said shouldn't be copied over to that main list. No harm done, but I want to prevent any more problems on that main list by someone accidently cross-posting. Thanks Fritz On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, Although you signed me up for the OT site I'm not sure that I understand how to differentiate between the two and then post to the correct one. I added texas cavers to my reply to RD, not knowing that I was cross posting. I presume that I can tell which site the post is coming from and reply to the individual on that post. I would assume that the question asked of me and my response concerning TSA membership and dues was on topic. Sorry if I goofed and I certainly didn't realize that I said anything that would be hurtful or offensive to anyone. I will pay attention and learn how to do this correctly. Fritz -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 2:26 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, you copied this over to texascavers instead of ot, not a big deal on this discussion, but we gotta watch what is cross-posted, many of us have been pretty open about things that are generally not discussed on tc and said a few things that would be hurtful to some thanks Charles On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com
