[NMCAVER] LNF Cave Closings
Hi folks, In response to the information that is circulating concerning the Lincoln National Forest clsoing the caves in the Guadalupe District I sent the attached letter today. While it may be an exericse in futility, it can not hurt to attempt to bring some political pressure to bear. The Guadalupe District is within Congressman Teague's congressional area. ken Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[NMCAVER] LNF Cave Closings
Apparently some did not receive the attachment so I am trying again. Ken _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[Texascavers] test 3
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.170081,-96.509485num=1t=hsll=30.170415,-96.50882sspn=0.007198,0.017166hl=enie=UTF8ll=30.169692,-96.505237spn=0.007198,0.008991z=16 - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] oops - east Texas picnic related
I did not mean to send that last e-mail. But now that I did, I might as well explain what it is. If you click on the link, it shows an aerial view of a piece of property. That is the camp I have rented to hold the picnic that I am planning for May 22. The plan is for everybody to participate in a group family bike ride along Happy Hollow Road ( County Rd. 27 ) on Sunday, the 23rd of May. In the photo, the white rectangle is a covered picnic area with about 4 picnic tables underneath. The brown structure in the center is a dining hall with kitchen similar to the one at Kerrville State Park, but about 1/2 the size. The camp manager claims he is working with me to find a cheaper insurance, but so far, it looks like I am going to have to shell out $ 500 for that. That is the only snag so far in the planning. A caver has volunteered to sell me the insurance. I have invited around 250 people to attend, so if 10 percent show up Saturday for the dinner, that would be 25 people and any friends or family that comes with them. The camp is paid for from Friday afternoon to Sunday afternoon. I hope I don't have to charge an entry fee, but will likely have a plastic bucket asking for donations to help re-coup some of the cost. I you haven't received an invitation yet by e-mail, and would like one please let me know. Hopefully, there will be cheeseburgers and hot-dogs on the grill by late Saturday afternoon. Again, updates will be posted on Facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=306448097728ref=ts David Locklear host of the cook-out 281-960-0687 - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Sonora Butterfly :
Butterfly Tuesday, January 26, 2010 I don't know who broke our butterfly, Brandy tells us, but when they find him, just hand him over to me, and I'll break his legs. We're 150 feet underground. The air is damp, 85 degrees. The light is artificial. Brandy's cheeks are warm and flushed. Sometimes, you need to go down to go up. I'd visited the Caverns of Sonora when I was twelve, but hardly remembered them. As a college student hitchhiking to California, my husband, standing here in the warm, wet light beside me, had once gotten as far as the cavern entrance, but didn't have enough money to go in. In those days, the cave was a small, family-run affair; it's still a family affair, and the same family still owns the place, but now there is a gleaming Visitors Center, and a campground with RV hookups, and a parking lot big enough to attract tour buses. Yet on this deep, dead-of-winter day, we are the only ones in line. Before we can go in and down, our guide Brandy has to take a call from her daughter's elementary school. Sorry, she blushes (she's blond and small and doesn't look much more than a kid herself). Your child starts coughing, and right away they want to send her home with swine flu. I really feel bad you had to wait. But once we're down in the cave, we're completely cut off from everything. She smiles, her long lashes like wings. She seals the air-tight door behind us, and we begin heading down toward the two miles of open cavern network. In less than a minute we're in another world. We've stepped and slipped into a plane of jewels. The Caverns of Sonora, Texas make Carlsbad look like an abandoned strip mine. Here, everything is so close, and so beautiful, it takes all you have not to touch it to make sure it, and you, are real. Brandy is teaching us the names of the formations we're seeing as we go along: popcorn stone, flowstone, cave coral, cave drapery, columns, dogtooth spar, quartzes, soda straws, stalactites, stalagmites, helactites. Geodes bake like crystal-packed muffins on the walls. Now, all of this grows at a rate of one centimeter per 10,000 years, she tells us as we pass a huge column growing out of the floor, close to touching its twin descending from the ceiling. Called the Kissing Column, the two formations are--yes--a mere centimeter apart. My husband, who loves to talk to people and ask questions: So . . . do you like doing this for your job, Brandy? I LOVE it! I love both things I do. I guide in the morning, and then I go to nursing school in San Angelo at night. And then I practice my anatomy down here. She points to metacarpals of flowstone, brachial tubes of coral, helactites in the shape of mandibles. She also directs our attention to formations that look like bacon and pork chops. She savors the work. My husband, ever interested in the consequences of actions over time, asks: But if you like it so much, what will you do when you're all done with nursing school? I don't know, Brandy grimaces, and switches off the lights. All through the cave, she's been turning the lights on and off as we go, so that what lies in front of us always remains in darkness, and what lies behind us is in darkness, and the only place illuminated is the place where we stand. I don't want to think about that right now. Ask me later. We pass signs of damage, places where tourists, unable to keep from reaching, have blackened the calcium walls with human oil. We pass through chambers of pure, undamaged white to reach Horseshoe Pond, an emerald lake surrounded by a halo of pearls. The water is so clear it hurts to look at it. This is my favorite room, Brandy says. Mine too, my husband nods. At the deepest point in the cavern, Brandy turns off all the lights so we can appreciate the total blackness of its natural state. She informs us that if we stayed down like this for two weeks, we would start to go blind. The retina starts to decay, she says matter-of-factly. Then she puts the lights on again. Okay, so now I'm going to take you to see the butterfly--sad as that is. The butterfly was once the glory, the pride and the emblem of the Caverns of Sonora. I remembered seeing it when I was twelve, so small and amber-colored and perfect, a marvel of accident. But a vandal had since broken off one of its translucent wings, probably while trying to steal it. It was a two-man operation: during a tour of more than thirty people, a plant at the head of the tour had distracted the guide, while a man at the back hopped the railing, attacked, and stuck the piece in his pocket. The damage wasn't discovered until the next tour came through. And then we cried. Brandy lowers her eyes. All of us who work here cried and cried and cried and cried. It was horrible. They did end up figuring out who it was. From his credit card. He has a history. The Texas Rangers are still after him.
RE: [Texascavers] a caver's web-site
Wow! That is a fantastic website, Dave, and thanks for pointing it out! You're correct in that you could spend a LOT of time there viewing the excellent photography. I especially enjoyed all of the photos from the CaCa area, including a lot of photos of Cottonwood cave (where we're going in March). The section on Nutty Putty cave is especially ironic, in that it is now closed due to the fatality late last year. It gives you a good idea of what the cave was like before. It seemed particularly eerie seeing the photos of mock rescue practice and someone going in (and thru) without a helmet! I have a feeling I'll be spending a lot of time on this site in the days! Mark From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com] Sent: Thu 1/28/2010 1:05 AM To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] a caver's web-site Below is a link to a caver's web-site. It gives some good ideas for people wanting to make their own web-site about their caving adventures. He mixes music with the photos to give a multi-media experience.Some of th photos are pretty good. http://www.jonjasper.com/ If you click on his equalizer graph, you can replay the song, and change the volume, and see the name of the song, or select a different song. I liked his photos of Nacimiento del Rio Choy and the nearby Hotel Tanninul. I also like how his slideshow kinds of tells a story with narrated photos. Click on some of his 360 degree photos. That is cool. They are listed under Panoramas. It would take hours to view his entire web-site. That is a lot of pictorial information to consume in one setting. Based on the part I saw, I would have to give him 5 stars. He obviously put a lot of work into this web-site. I enjoyed looking at it. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[NMCAVER] New Mexican Cave Hints at Future Weather
Discovery (Channel) News has another article on Fort Stanton Cave: http://news.discovery.com/earth/cave-stalactite-climate-rainfall.html Lee Skinner ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[Texascavers] Sonora survey
Most of the people commenting about the total length of Caverns of Sonora haven't much of a clue what they are talking about. There are lots of little crevices, tiny cracks, and levels upon levels throughout the cave. If you surveyed all those, it might double the total surveyed length of the cave as we know it now. Will this happen? Not likely. Through the years there have been a number of survey activities at this cave. At least half of them were ultimately discarded as useless. The Jack Burch transit survey of the commercial route through the cave and then overland to connect the two entrances has been the backbone of all subsequent efforts. It closes quite well if not perfectly (years ago, I ran the numbers from his field notes). One of the problems is that a survey of the cave, done well, is extremely tedious --- something on the order of 10-20 feet per hour. The cave is very fragile and each move needs to be thoughtfully done. Look at the map on page 408 of your 50 YEARS book. That's a small portion in the middle of one of the more complex areas and it took three fairly long trips to gather that much survey data. And drafting an intelligible map is another story. This is sketched and drafted at a scale that I would consider the bare minimum to show the features of the cave. Digital drafting opens other doors that might be successful. It's not so much that the owners aren't interested in a high grade survey of the cave as the fact that there aren't many people with the skills and dedication to complete such a project. I thought that I might make this happen back in the late 1960s and, with the blessing and cooperation of Jack Burch, we made a start. Then, there was a change of heart among the majority owners and the survey was suspended and never resumed. This cave is TOTALLY unsuited to be a TSA Project. That would be a disaster! As George Veni has pointed out in another e-mail, he has received special permission to do a highly detailed survey along the commercial route. That's wonderful and I do hope that he finds time to complete that project but that still leaves a lot of cave away from the tour trails and much of it is not only difficult to travel but is multi-level and extremely fragile. On page 412 of 50 YEARS, I commented thusly: You might think that Caverns of Sonora would be among the best, most professionally mapped caves in Texas. You would be wrong. There are somewhat better maps available than the silhouette version presented here, but the sad truth is that no comprehensive class A map exists. There is an excellent transit survey making a loop that goes in the historic entrance, along the commercial trail, out the man-made exit tunnel, and back to the entrance, but there is no caver map in the usual sense of that word. Will it happen someday? Perhaps, but it will not be soon. It will require a massive effort to compile the necessary data and a cartography genius to interpret that data so that it makes sense in two dimensions. That would be daunting enough in a cave that offered free access, but such is certainly not the case here. Access to the cave has been extremely limited for the past 40 years. Moreover, survey progress will necessarily be quite slow not just because of the great amount of detail required but because of the care required to move about without doing damage to the cave. Through the years, many enthusiasts have begun surveys only to be thwarted for one reason or another. Take a tour through the cave sometime and pay special attention to the many interconnected levels and overall complex nature of the cave. I think you will be intimidated. Meanwhile back to the 4th survey of our favorite: Powell's Cave. Will your grandchildren see a completed map? ===Carl Kunath - Original Message - From: Linda Palit To: 'Mark Minton' ; Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:27 AM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly As I understand it the owners have never allowed and are not interested in a full survey -- worry about damage. ===Palit As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could make a great TSA activity. ==Minton
texascavers Digest 28 Jan 2010 19:09:34 -0000 Issue 956
texascavers Digest 28 Jan 2010 19:09:34 - Issue 956 Topics (messages 13442 through 13455): test 3 13442 by: David oops - east Texas picnic related 13443 by: David Sonora Butterfly : 13444 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com Re: a caver's web-site 13445 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com Re: Sonora Butterfly 13446 by: Mark Minton 13447 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net 13448 by: George Veni 13449 by: Mark Minton 13450 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com 13451 by: Don Arburn 13452 by: Linda Palit 13454 by: George Veni The always popular caver obituary 13453 by: BMorgan994.aol.com Sonora survey 13455 by: Carl Kunath Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- http://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.170081,-96.509485num=1t=hsll=30.170415,-96.50882sspn=0.007198,0.017166hl=enie=UTF8ll=30.169692,-96.505237spn=0.007198,0.008991z=16 ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- I did not mean to send that last e-mail. But now that I did, I might as well explain what it is. If you click on the link, it shows an aerial view of a piece of property. That is the camp I have rented to hold the picnic that I am planning for May 22. The plan is for everybody to participate in a group family bike ride along Happy Hollow Road ( County Rd. 27 ) on Sunday, the 23rd of May. In the photo, the white rectangle is a covered picnic area with about 4 picnic tables underneath. The brown structure in the center is a dining hall with kitchen similar to the one at Kerrville State Park, but about 1/2 the size. The camp manager claims he is working with me to find a cheaper insurance, but so far, it looks like I am going to have to shell out $ 500 for that. That is the only snag so far in the planning. A caver has volunteered to sell me the insurance. I have invited around 250 people to attend, so if 10 percent show up Saturday for the dinner, that would be 25 people and any friends or family that comes with them. The camp is paid for from Friday afternoon to Sunday afternoon. I hope I don't have to charge an entry fee, but will likely have a plastic bucket asking for donations to help re-coup some of the cost. I you haven't received an invitation yet by e-mail, and would like one please let me know. Hopefully, there will be cheeseburgers and hot-dogs on the grill by late Saturday afternoon. Again, updates will be posted on Facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=306448097728ref=ts David Locklear host of the cook-out 281-960-0687 ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Butterfly Tuesday, January 26, 2010 I don't know who broke our butterfly, Brandy tells us, but when they find him, just hand him over to me, and I'll break his legs. We're 150 feet underground. The air is damp, 85 degrees. The light is artificial. Brandy's cheeks are warm and flushed. Sometimes, you need to go down to go up. I'd visited the Caverns of Sonora when I was twelve, but hardly remembered them. As a college student hitchhiking to California, my husband, standing here in the warm, wet light beside me, had once gotten as far as the cavern entrance, but didn't have enough money to go in. In those days, the cave was a small, family-run affair; it's still a family affair, and the same family still owns the place, but now there is a gleaming Visitors Center, and a campground with RV hookups, and a parking lot big enough to attract tour buses. Yet on this deep, dead-of-winter day, we are the only ones in line. Before we can go in and down, our guide Brandy has to take a call from her daughter's elementary school. Sorry, she blushes (she's blond and small and doesn't look much more than a kid herself). Your child starts coughing, and right away they want to send her home with swine flu. I really feel bad you had to wait. But once we're down in the cave, we're completely cut off from everything. She smiles, her long lashes like wings. She seals the air-tight door behind us, and we begin heading down toward the two miles of open cavern network. In less than a minute we're in another world. We've stepped and slipped into a plane of jewels. The Caverns of Sonora, Texas make Carlsbad look like an abandoned strip mine. Here, everything is so close, and so beautiful, it takes all you have not to touch it to make sure it, and you, are real. Brandy is teaching us the names of the formations we're seeing as we go along: popcorn stone, flowstone, cave coral, cave drapery, columns, dogtooth spar, quartzes, soda straws, stalactites, stalagmites, helactites. Geodes bake like crystal-packed muffins on the walls.
[Texascavers] Press
I had a boss who told me once that he would never hold me accountable for what I said to the press, only what the press said I said. G - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] The always popular caver obituary
Since obituaries are so much more popular among cavers these days than theological discussions, even those pertaining to Oztotl, I thought it might be good to offer this reminiscence of much beloved caver extraordinaire Bill Berryhill who some of you may have known. In response to my post concerning Yucatan breccia Roger Moore wrote “ Thankee fer the rocks. Find any nocks while you were there? Roger (for whom the Great Newt will always be supreme.) To which I replied, “There are knockers aplenty in Cancun. It was a touching moment, I had taken my old caver friend Bill Berryhill who was dying of cancer on a trip to Cancun. We went to a titty bar and he insisted on expectantly holding a tissue up for the girls. They had no idea what he was doing and neither did I. Turns out that his dick had fallen off but he still liked the smell of a woman and wanted them to wipe their nether parts with the tissue so he could sniff it!” Roger replied, “Touching, but gawdawful! I hope his trials are over.” To which I replied, “And well done too! He was diagnosed and told that he had only months to live, so he rejected all treatment and lived another three years during which time he devoted himself to bringing joy to the world and plumbing to the Old Timers Reunion. It appeared that he would never die, so when he announced his last Thanksgiving swillfest and feed at his extremely rustic home along the Haw river in central NC I was too busy to attend. I will never forgive myself. He was reduced to laying on a couch with a beer drip during the week long party. When it was all over and the guests were ready to leave he announced, It's been great everybody, but the party is over and I'm outta here. Bye! Then he died. What a guy! There is a stone in his honor at the OTR sauna, and every time I see a naked caver chick I think of the kindest most generous person I have ever known!” Sniff, Sleaze
RE: [Texascavers] The always popular caver obituary
Bruce, Bill was a great guy and I was saddened to learn of his death. I didn’t know you guys were friends. Too bad, we could have told some funny Sleazeweasel stories but back then, most of there were actually pretty grim. LOL. Geary From: bmorgan...@aol.com [mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:58 AM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] The always popular caver obituary Since obituaries are so much more popular among cavers these days than theological discussions, even those pertaining to Oztotl, I thought it might be good to offer this reminiscence of much beloved caver extraordinaire Bill Berryhill who some of you may have known. In response to my post concerning Yucatan breccia Roger Moore wrote “Thankee fer the rocks. Find any nocks while you were there? Roger (for whom the Great Newt will always be supreme.) To which I replied, “There are knockers aplenty in Cancun. It was a touching moment, I had taken my old caver friend Bill Berryhill who was dying of cancer on a trip to Cancun. We went to a titty bar and he insisted on expectantly holding a tissue up for the girls. They had no idea what he was doing and neither did I. Turns out that his dick had fallen off but he still liked the smell of a woman and wanted them to wipe their nether parts with the tissue so he could sniff it!” Roger replied, “Touching, but gawdawful! I hope his trials are over.” To which I replied, “And well done too! He was diagnosed and told that he had only months to live, so he rejected all treatment and lived another three years during which time he devoted himself to bringing joy to the world and plumbing to the Old Timers Reunion. It appeared that he would never die, so when he announced his last Thanksgiving swillfest and feed at his extremely rustic home along the Haw river in central NC I was too busy to attend. I will never forgive myself. He was reduced to laying on a couch with a beer drip during the week long party. When it was all over and the guests were ready to leave he announced, It's been great everybody, but the party is over and I'm outta here. Bye! Then he died. What a guy! There is a stone in his honor at the OTR sauna, and every time I see a naked caver chick I think of the kindest most generous person I have ever known!” Sniff, Sleaze
[NMCAVER] LNF Cave Closing
Obviously, my confuser (computer) and i are not on speaking terms today. Soo... I have embedded the ltr in the email. Ken January 28, 2010 Congressman Harry Teague 102 East 4th Street Roswell, NM 88201 Dear Congressman Teague, I am writing about an issue that is evolving in Southeastern New Mexico that concerns the Guadalupe District (GD) of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF). The LNF is proposing to close all the caves in the GD to recreational caving due to their inability to fill a position for a cave specialist. Their alternative to closing the caves is to hire commercial guides to manage the caves. Neither of these courses of action is acceptable. The cave specialist position is charged with issuing permits and conducting guided tours of certain caves within the GD. This position has been vacant for several months since the last individual took a job with the BLM office in Carlsbad. The LNF is charged with managing the caves. The caves belong to the people and not to the Forest Service. The Forest Service is simply the steward of public property. The caves within the GD are world class limestone caves and many of them are heavily decorated and pristine in nature. They are visited annually by cavers from all over the world. Last summer alone I know of cavers from Japan, Australia, Great Britain and Germany that visited these caves. For New Mexico cavers these are the finest caves available for us to visit. I am the Chairman of the Southwestern Region (SWR) of the National Speleological Society (NSS). The SWR membership is comprised of cavers from New Mexico, Texas, Arizona and Colorado. The SWR has contributed over ½ million dollars of volunteer hours to the LNF to conduct restoration and preservation activities in these caves. We are experienced cavers who have the best interests of the caves in mind. On a personal note I started my caving experiences in the caves of the GD almost 45 years ago. I was responsible for the discovery (or re-discovery) of some of these caves and even have one named after me. As you are probably aware there is a crisis concerning bats in the eastern United States called White Nosed Syndrome (WNS). This fungal infection is moving south and west as bats migrate between different geographic areas. We need to be able to enter these caves to monitor the various bat colonies for the presence of WNS in our caves. Experienced cavers are the best source of information on what bats roost in which caves and the conditions of these bats. Closing of the caves will prevent our being able to conduct these monitoring activities. We request you contact the leadership of the LNF and influence them to fund and fill the position of a cave specialist in the GD. Loss of access to these caves will mean loss of revenue to local businesses where cavers shop while visiting the Carlsbad area to go caving. It will keep also experienced cavers from enjoying visits to these wonderful world class caves. Thanks you for your attention to this issue. Please help us keep these caves open. I am available to talk to anyone concerning this issue and possible solutions. Ken Harrington NSS 9231 Chairman, Southwest Region, NSS Ph 575 234 1664 4509 King Road Carlsbad, NM 88220 ken_harring...@hotmail.com _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/ ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
texascavers Digest 28 Jan 2010 22:06:46 -0000 Issue 957
texascavers Digest 28 Jan 2010 22:06:46 - Issue 957 Topics (messages 13456 through 13464): Press 13456 by: Geary Schindel Re: The always popular caver obituary 13457 by: Geary Schindel TSA Winter Meeting Membership, TC Access, and Website Changes Now Completed 13458 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com 13459 by: germanyj.aol.com 13460 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com Re: Sonora Butterfly 13461 by: Fritz Holt 13462 by: Josh Rubinstein 13463 by: George Veni 13464 by: George Veni Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- I had a boss who told me once that he would never hold me accountable for what I said to the press, only what the press said I said. G ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Bruce, Bill was a great guy and I was saddened to learn of his death. I didn’t know you guys were friends. Too bad, we could have told some funny Sleazeweasel stories but back then, most of there were actually pretty grim. LOL. Geary From: bmorgan...@aol.com [mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:58 AM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] The always popular caver obituary Since obituaries are so much more popular among cavers these days than theological discussions, even those pertaining to Oztotl, I thought it might be good to offer this reminiscence of much beloved caver extraordinaire Bill Berryhill who some of you may have known. In response to my post concerning Yucatan breccia Roger Moore wrote “Thankee fer the rocks. Find any nocks while you were there? Roger (for whom the Great Newt will always be supreme.) To which I replied, “There are knockers aplenty in Cancun. It was a touching moment, I had taken my old caver friend Bill Berryhill who was dying of cancer on a trip to Cancun. We went to a titty bar and he insisted on expectantly holding a tissue up for the girls. They had no idea what he was doing and neither did I. Turns out that his dick had fallen off but he still liked the smell of a woman and wanted them to wipe their nether parts with the tissue so he could sniff it!” Roger replied, “Touching, but gawdawful! I hope his trials are over.” To which I replied, “And well done too! He was diagnosed and told that he had only months to live, so he rejected all treatment and lived another three years during which time he devoted himself to bringing joy to the world and plumbing to the Old Timers Reunion. It appeared that he would never die, so when he announced his last Thanksgiving swillfest and feed at his extremely rustic home along the Haw river in central NC I was too busy to attend. I will never forgive myself. He was reduced to laying on a couch with a beer drip during the week long party. When it was all over and the guests were ready to leave he announced, It's been great everybody, but the party is over and I'm outta here. Bye! Then he died. What a guy! There is a stone in his honor at the OTR sauna, and every time I see a naked caver chick I think of the kindest most generous person I have ever known!” Sniff, Sleaze ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Butch Fralia, our TSA website extraordinaire, has informed me that after laboring for countless hours in a previously smoke-filled back room, hunched over a steaming keyboard, that the changes to the TSA membership fees, TEXAS CAVER access, and to website have been completed! You'll recall that these motions were made and approved at the TSA Winter Business meeting at CBSP earlier this month at CBSP. To recap: Membership Levels * Single Membership - $20.00 Voted to change to Single Membership (online TC) - $15.00 and Single Membership (mailed TC) - $25.00 Other changes made: * Family Membership - $30.00 - Two votes in TSA Elections Changes to Family Membership (online TC) - $20.00 and Family Membership (mailed TC) - $30.00 * Student Membership - $15.00 Changes to Student Membership (online TC) - $10.00 and Student Membership (mailed TC) - $20.00. Add No voting. * Libraries - $20.00 Leave. Add No voting. TEXAS CAVER access Voted to make all TC's older than one year now available online to all, add link on the cascading menu under Services and off the announcements on the home page. With any luck, this will entice new members to join the TSA and to bring prodigal members (i.e. Gill) back to the fold! Still to do: A suggestion was made for a photos and trip report section where folks could send
[Texascavers] accident report 1959 ?
I think this is an old caver reminiscing: http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/jan/27/lesson-of-teamwork-learned-deep-underground/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Ft Stanton Cave paleoclimatology results :
New Mexican Cave Hints at Future Weather Cave formations in New Mexico and China offer clues to how climate change will affect global rainfall. (http://omnikool.discovery.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/news.discovery.com/earth/cave-stalactite-climate-rainfall.html/1921511673/Top3/default/empty. gif/6c613731695572426f664d4143746452?x) By _Larry O'Hanlon_ (http://news.discovery.com/contributors/larry-o'hanlon/) | Thu Jan 28, 2010 06:45 AM ET Careful analysis of a stalactite from Fort Stanton Cave of southeastern New Mexico (shown here) reveal storm patterns may shift toward the poles with warming. Cristina L. Archer THE GIST: * Earth's heaviest rainy zones are shifting towards the poles and always do with global warming. The evidence comes from a 56,000-year-old drip stone in a New Mexican cave. The cave discovery matches what real weather data shows already starting to take place. Global warming will likely lead to dramatic poleward shifts of Earth's wettest storm-laden weather patterns, according to a remarkable 56,000-year-old stalactite found in a New Mexican cave. This means some places, like New Mexico, could dry up while others, like some parts of China, will become very, very wet. This remarkably specific climate change forecast comes from the careful study of a record contained in the mineral layers of a stalactite (a mineral dripstone) found in Fort Stanton Cave of southeastern New Mexico. The _stalactite_ (http://science.howstuffworks.com/stalactite-stalagmite.htm) provides an unusual glimpse into the past because of chemical signatures in the calcite layers. Different forms of oxygen within the minerals make it possible to distinguish water that rained or snowed down from wintry jet stream-powered Pacific Ocean storms versus the state's annual summer monsoon rains from the Gulf of Mexico. What the stalactite reveals are big shifts in these precipitation patterns over the millennia, explained University of New Mexico researcher Yemane Asmerom, who is the lead author of a letter describing the discovery in the latest online issue of Nature Geosciences. It wasn't until the researchers compared the mineral record to temperature records extracted from Greenland ice cores did it start to make any sense in the bigger _climate change_ (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/01/27/global-warming.html) picture. It turns out, said Asmerom, that whenever the Greenland ice shows a warm period, the New Mexico stalactite shows less rainfall and snow coming from the Pacific Ocean. That suggests the warmer periods are causing the jet stream -- which brings in Pacific storms -- to _retreat northwards_ (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/04/18/jet-stream-storm.html) , taking the winter moisture with it. But that's not all they found. The researchers also discovered a remarkably similar stalactite _precipitation_ (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/07/09/shifting-rain-band.html) record from Hulu, China (a suburb of Shanghai). That record mirrors the New Mexico pattern of dry/wet periods but in reverse: When the climate is warmer and New Mexico dries up, Hulu gets drenched. It's one of the best matches I've ever seen, said Asmerom of how well the three records match. It's almost like a photocopy. What it suggests is that not only is the jet stream forced poleward during bouts of global warming, but the equator-straddling bands of moisture that keep tropical regions green also shift poleward, enveloping Hulu, China, among other places. This regional picture of change is something that climatologists had suspected from previous analyses of decades of meteorological data. But they could not confirm it, until now. Asmerom and his team looked at completely different data and yet they were able to make a hypothesis of what happened to the jet stream and the (tropical rainfall zone), said Cristina Archer, a geoscientist at California State University at Chico. Archer was involved with the modeling of 28 years of meteorological data which, among other things, hinted strongly of the very same thing Asmerom and his team are seeing in the cave's mineral record. There were a lot of findings (from the modeling work), but shifts towards the poles was one of them, Archer said. In other words, the stalactite mineral records are pretty good independent confirmation that there is something to this pattern of changes that will come with a hotter planet. _http://news.discovery.com/earth/cave-stalactite-climate-rainfall.html_ (http://news.discovery.com/earth/cave-stalactite-climate-rainfall.html)
[Texascavers] New Mexico climate data
The Larry O'Hanlon who wrote the news item just posted here doesn't know a stalactite from a stalagmite. I wonder what else he got wrong -- Mixon A bore is a person who talks when you wish him to listen. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
That's an interesting take on a commercial caving experience, but not very well fact checked. I was immediately suspicious when she said it was 85 degrees in the cave. According to the Caverns of Sonora web site http://www.cavernsofsonora.com/, which she references, it is actually 71 degrees in the cave, with the humidity making it feel like 85. She mentions quartz as one of the types of formations present. When I took the tour there many years ago our guide also claimed some of the formations were quartz, but what we were looking at was obviously calcite. It is also totally untrue that one would go blind after two weeks in the dark. The author states that Caverns of Sonora is 7 miles long, but TSS says its only about 2 http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/longdeep/tsslongcaves.htm. Sigh. Mark Minton Butterfly Tuesday, January 26, 2010 I don't know who broke our butterfly, Brandy tells us, but when they find him, just hand him over to me, and I'll break his legs. We're 150 feet underground. The air is damp, 85 degrees. The light is artificial. Brandy's cheeks are warm and flushed. Sometimes, you need to go down to go up. I'd visited the Caverns of Sonora when I was twelve, but hardly remembered them. As a college student hitchhiking to California, my husband, standing here in the warm, wet light beside me, had once gotten as far as the cavern entrance, but didn't have enough money to go in. In those days, the cave was a small, family-run affair; it's still a family affair, and the same family still owns the place, but now there is a gleaming Visitors Center, and a campground with RV hookups, and a parking lot big enough to attract tour buses. Yet on this deep, dead-of-winter day, we are the only ones in line. Before we can go in and down, our guide Brandy has to take a call from her daughter's elementary school. Sorry, she blushes (she's blond and small and doesn't look much more than a kid herself). Your child starts coughing, and right away they want to send her home with swine flu. I really feel bad you had to wait. But once we're down in the cave, we're completely cut off from everything. She smiles, her long lashes like wings. She seals the air-tight door behind us, and we begin heading down toward the two miles of open cavern network. In less than a minute we're in another world. We've stepped and slipped into a plane of jewels. The Caverns of Sonora, Texas make Carlsbad look like an abandoned strip mine. Here, everything is so close, and so beautiful, it takes all you have not to touch it to make sure it, and you, are real. Brandy is teaching us the names of the formations we're seeing as we go along: popcorn stone, flowstone, cave coral, cave drapery, columns, dogtooth spar, quartzes, soda straws, stalactites, stalagmites, helactites. Geodes bake like crystal-packed muffins on the walls. Now, all of this grows at a rate of one centimeter per 10,000 years, she tells us as we pass a huge column growing out of the floor, close to touching its twin descending from the ceiling. Called the Kissing Column, the two formations are--yes--a mere centimeter apart. My husband, who loves to talk to people and ask questions: So . . . do you like doing this for your job, Brandy? I LOVE it! I love both things I do. I guide in the morning, and then I go to nursing school in San Angelo at night. And then I practice my anatomy down here. She points to metacarpals of flowstone, brachial tubes of coral, helactites in the shape of mandibles. She also directs our attention to formations that look like bacon and pork chops. She savors the work. My husband, ever interested in the consequences of actions over time, asks: But if you like it so much, what will you do when you're all done with nursing school? I don't know, Brandy grimaces, and switches off the lights. All through the cave, she's been turning the lights on and off as we go, so that what lies in front of us always remains in darkness, and what lies behind us is in darkness, and the only place illuminated is the place where we stand. I don't want to think about that right now. Ask me later. We pass signs of damage, places where tourists, unable to keep from reaching, have blackened the calcium walls with human oil. We pass through chambers of pure, undamaged white to reach Horseshoe Pond, an emerald lake surrounded by a halo of pearls. The water is so clear it hurts to look at it. This is my favorite room, Brandy says. Mine too, my husband nods. At the deepest point in the cavern, Brandy turns off all the lights so we can appreciate the total blackness of its natural state. She informs us that if we stayed down like this for two weeks, we would start to go blind. The retina starts to decay, she says matter-of-factly. Then she puts the lights on again. Okay, so now I'm going to take you to see the butterfly--sad as that is. The butterfly was
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
Fact check a non-technical blog? Jeeze. Lots of blogs are chock-full of spurious information, anyway. TJan 28, 2010 10:03:37 AM, mmin...@caver.net wrote: That's an interesting take on a commercial caving experience, but not very well fact checked. I was immediately suspicious when she said it was 85 degrees in the cave. According to the Caverns of Sonora web site , which she references, it is actually 71 degrees in the cave, with the humidity making it feel like 85. She mentions quartz as one of the types of formations present. When I took the tour there many years ago our guide also claimed some of the formations were quartz, but what we were looking at was obviously calcite. It is also totally untrue that one would go blind after two weeks in the dark. The author states that Caverns of Sonora is 7 miles long, but TSS says its only about 2 . Sigh.Mark MintonButterflyTuesday, January 26, 2010"I don't know who broke our butterfly," Brandy tells us, "but when they find him, just hand him over to me, and I'll break his legs."We're 150 feet underground. The air is damp, 85 degrees. The light is artificial. Brandy's cheeks are warm and flushed.Sometimes, you need to go down to go up. I'd visited the Caverns of Sonora when I was twelve, but hardly remembered them. As a college student hitchhiking to California, my husband, standing here in the warm, wet light beside me, had once gotten as far as the cavern entrance, but didn't have enough money to go in. In those days, the cave was a small, family-run affair; it's still a family affair, and the same family still owns the place, but now there is a gleaming Visitors Center, and a campground with RV hookups, and a parking lot big enough to attract tour buses.Yet on this deep, dead-of-winter day, we are the only ones in line.Before we can go in and down, our guide Brandy has to take a call from her daughter's elementary school."Sorry," she blushes (she's blond and small and doesn't look much more than a kid herself). "Your child starts coughing, and right away they want to send her home with swine flu. I really feel bad you had to wait. But once we're down in the cave, we're completely cut off from everything." She smiles, her long lashes like wings.She seals the air-tight door behind us, and we begin heading down toward the two miles of open cavern network. In less than a minute we're in another world. We've stepped and slipped into a plane of jewels. The Caverns of Sonora, Texas make Carlsbad look like an abandoned strip mine. Here, everything is so close, and so beautiful, it takes all you have not to touch it to make sure it, and you, are real.Brandy is teaching us the names of the formations we're seeing as we go along: popcorn stone, flowstone, cave coral, cave drapery, columns, dogtooth spar, quartzes, soda straws, stalactites, stalagmites, helactites. Geodes "bake" like crystal-packed muffins on the walls."Now, all of this grows at a rate of one centimeter per 10,000 years," she tells us as we pass a huge column growing out of the floor, close to touching its twin descending from the ceiling. Called the "Kissing Column," the two formations are--yes--a mere centimeter apart.My husband, who loves to talk to people and ask questions:"So . . . do you like doing this for your job, Brandy?""I LOVE it! I love both things I do. I guide in the morning, and then I go to nursing school in San Angelo at night. And then I practice my anatomy down here." She points to metacarpals of flowstone, brachial tubes of coral, helactites in the shape of mandibles. She also directs our attention to formations that look like bacon and pork chops. She savors the work.My husband, ever interested in the consequences of actions over time, asks: "But if you like it so much, what will you do when you're all done with nursing school?""I don't know," Brandy grimaces, and switches off the lights. All through the cave, she's been turning the lights on and off as we go, so that what lies in front of us always remains in darkness, and what lies behind us is in darkness, and the only place illuminated is the place where we stand. "I don't want to think about that right now. Ask me later."We pass signs of damage, places where tourists, unable to keep from reaching, have blackened the calcium walls with human oil. We pass through chambers of pure, undamaged white to reach Horseshoe Pond, an emerald lake surrounded by a halo of pearls. The water is so clear it hurts to look at it."This is my favorite room," Brandy says."Mine too," my husband nods.At the deepest point in the cavern, Brandy turns off all the lights so we can appreciate the total blackness of its natural state. She informs us that if we stayed down like this for two weeks, we would start to go blind. "The retina starts to decay," she says matter-of-factly. Then she puts the lights on again. "Okay, so now I'm going to take you to see the butterfly--sad as that is."The butterfly was once the glory, the pride and the emblem of the
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
About 13 years ago I wrote a guide for the guides at Sonora. Some of the guides have it virtually memorized and I hear them quote it or accurately paraphrase it. The management at the cave works hard to preserve and build on the accuracy of their tours. Sometimes guides embellish, no matter how hard the owners try to prevent it. However, sometimes the tourists mix up the message. Blaming the guide assumes that the author's recollection is completely accurate. I've given lots of interviews to reporters who even when taking detailed notes still garbled some of the information because it is so foreign to them. In any case, I'll be contacting the owners about this so they will know that they may need to do more training with their guides. As for the 7 mile length, it is true that only about 2 miles have been surveyed, but Jack Burch told me many years ago when I first started studying the cave If you add up all of the unsurveyed passages, including all of the 10-ft-long dead-end crawlways, I bet you'd find there's seven to seven and half miles in there. That is where 7 miles came from. And from what I've seen of the cave, I believe Jack's estimate. George -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly That's an interesting take on a commercial caving experience, but not very well fact checked. I was immediately suspicious when she said it was 85 degrees in the cave. According to the Caverns of Sonora web site http://www.cavernsofsonora.com/, which she references, it is actually 71 degrees in the cave, with the humidity making it feel like 85. She mentions quartz as one of the types of formations present. When I took the tour there many years ago our guide also claimed some of the formations were quartz, but what we were looking at was obviously calcite. It is also totally untrue that one would go blind after two weeks in the dark. The author states that Caverns of Sonora is 7 miles long, but TSS says its only about 2 http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/longdeep/tsslongcaves.htm. Sigh. Mark Minton Butterfly Tuesday, January 26, 2010 I don't know who broke our butterfly, Brandy tells us, but when they find him, just hand him over to me, and I'll break his legs. We're 150 feet underground. The air is damp, 85 degrees. The light is artificial. Brandy's cheeks are warm and flushed. Sometimes, you need to go down to go up. I'd visited the Caverns of Sonora when I was twelve, but hardly remembered them. As a college student hitchhiking to California, my husband, standing here in the warm, wet light beside me, had once gotten as far as the cavern entrance, but didn't have enough money to go in. In those days, the cave was a small, family-run affair; it's still a family affair, and the same family still owns the place, but now there is a gleaming Visitors Center, and a campground with RV hookups, and a parking lot big enough to attract tour buses. Yet on this deep, dead-of-winter day, we are the only ones in line. Before we can go in and down, our guide Brandy has to take a call from her daughter's elementary school. Sorry, she blushes (she's blond and small and doesn't look much more than a kid herself). Your child starts coughing, and right away they want to send her home with swine flu. I really feel bad you had to wait. But once we're down in the cave, we're completely cut off from everything. She smiles, her long lashes like wings. She seals the air-tight door behind us, and we begin heading down toward the two miles of open cavern network. In less than a minute we're in another world. We've stepped and slipped into a plane of jewels. The Caverns of Sonora, Texas make Carlsbad look like an abandoned strip mine. Here, everything is so close, and so beautiful, it takes all you have not to touch it to make sure it, and you, are real. Brandy is teaching us the names of the formations we're seeing as we go along: popcorn stone, flowstone, cave coral, cave drapery, columns, dogtooth spar, quartzes, soda straws, stalactites, stalagmites, helactites. Geodes bake like crystal-packed muffins on the walls. Now, all of this grows at a rate of one centimeter per 10,000 years, she tells us as we pass a huge column growing out of the floor, close to touching its twin descending from the ceiling. Called the Kissing Column, the two formations are--yes--a mere centimeter apart. My husband, who loves to talk to people and ask questions: So . . . do you like doing this for your job, Brandy? I LOVE it! I love both things I do. I guide in the morning, and then I go to nursing school in San Angelo at night. And then I practice my anatomy down here. She points to metacarpals of flowstone, brachial tubes of coral, helactites in the shape of mandibles. She also directs our attention to formations that look
[Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
George, In any case, I'll be contacting the owners about this so they will know that they may need to do more training with their guides. That might be a good idea if they're still telling people some of the formations are quartz. When the guide told us that many years ago I questioned it, and the guide claimed that's what they were told to say. I doubted that was the case, but obviously they were convinced and as far as they were concerned I was just an uppity tourist. As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could make a great TSA activity. Mark About 13 years ago I wrote a guide for the guides at Sonora. Some of the guides have it virtually memorized and I hear them quote it or accurately paraphrase it. The management at the cave works hard to preserve and build on the accuracy of their tours. Sometimes guides embellish, no matter how hard the owners try to prevent it. However, sometimes the tourists mix up the message. Blaming the guide assumes that the author's recollection is completely accurate. I've given lots of interviews to reporters who even when taking detailed notes still garbled some of the information because it is so foreign to them. In any case, I'll be contacting the owners about this so they will know that they may need to do more training with their guides. As for the 7 mile length, it is true that only about 2 miles have been surveyed, but Jack Burch told me many years ago when I first started studying the cave If you add up all of the unsurveyed passages, including all of the 10-ft-long dead-end crawlways, I bet you'd find there's seven to seven and half miles in there. That is where 7 miles came from. And from what I've seen of the cave, I believe Jack's estimate. George -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly That's an interesting take on a commercial caving experience, but not very well fact checked. I was immediately suspicious when she said it was 85 degrees in the cave. According to the Caverns of Sonora web site http://www.cavernsofsonora.com/, which she references, it is actually 71 degrees in the cave, with the humidity making it feel like 85. She mentions quartz as one of the types of formations present. When I took the tour there many years ago our guide also claimed some of the formations were quartz, but what we were looking at was obviously calcite. It is also totally untrue that one would go blind after two weeks in the dark. The author states that Caverns of Sonora is 7 miles long, but TSS says its only about 2 http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/longdeep/tsslongcaves.htm. Sigh. Mark Minton You may reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
Any takers? Mark A. -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could make a great TSA activity. Mark M. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
I'm in. Don's iPhone. On Jan 28, 2010, at 11:05 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Any takers? Mark A. -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could make a great TSA activity. Mark M. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
As I understand it the owners have never allowed and are not interested in a full survey -- worry about damage. -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 11:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly George, In any case, I'll be contacting the owners about this so they will know that they may need to do more training with their guides. That might be a good idea if they're still telling people some of the formations are quartz. When the guide told us that many years ago I questioned it, and the guide claimed that's what they were told to say. I doubted that was the case, but obviously they were convinced and as far as they were concerned I was just an uppity tourist. As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could make a great TSA activity. Mark About 13 years ago I wrote a guide for the guides at Sonora. Some of the guides have it virtually memorized and I hear them quote it or accurately paraphrase it. The management at the cave works hard to preserve and build on the accuracy of their tours. Sometimes guides embellish, no matter how hard the owners try to prevent it. However, sometimes the tourists mix up the message. Blaming the guide assumes that the author's recollection is completely accurate. I've given lots of interviews to reporters who even when taking detailed notes still garbled some of the information because it is so foreign to them. In any case, I'll be contacting the owners about this so they will know that they may need to do more training with their guides. As for the 7 mile length, it is true that only about 2 miles have been surveyed, but Jack Burch told me many years ago when I first started studying the cave If you add up all of the unsurveyed passages, including all of the 10-ft-long dead-end crawlways, I bet you'd find there's seven to seven and half miles in there. That is where 7 miles came from. And from what I've seen of the cave, I believe Jack's estimate. George -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly That's an interesting take on a commercial caving experience, but not very well fact checked. I was immediately suspicious when she said it was 85 degrees in the cave. According to the Caverns of Sonora web site http://www.cavernsofsonora.com/, which she references, it is actually 71 degrees in the cave, with the humidity making it feel like 85. She mentions quartz as one of the types of formations present. When I took the tour there many years ago our guide also claimed some of the formations were quartz, but what we were looking at was obviously calcite. It is also totally untrue that one would go blind after two weeks in the dark. The author states that Caverns of Sonora is 7 miles long, but TSS says its only about 2 http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/longdeep/tsslongcaves.htm. Sigh. Mark Minton You may reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
My study of Caverns of Sonora that I referred to in my earlier message is also a survey. Many years ago, Jack Burch established a precise transit survey through the commercial section, with a few short bits extending off-trail. However his sketch was rudimentary and begged for detail. After several trips to the cave just to talk with the owners and manager (not to enter the cave), I was given permission to conduct a survey. We agreed to what in essence is an experiment. I have produced a highly detailed and precise sketch of the transit survey, loaded with geologic and other details. On average, sketching 15 m of passage took about 6 hours. The point was to see if this level of detail and precision (most sketched features are measured, not sketched by eyeballing their size and position) would tell us something important about the cave that would otherwise not be discovered. The answer is, I don't know yet. I was going back over my sketches filling in some additional geologic details when the ICS and moving to New Mexico put that work on the backburner. I'm hoping that this year I'll finish those geologic details and then look at the results and determine if the extra effort was worth it beyond a series of lovely, exquisitely detailed and precise sketches. Depending on those results, I'll discuss with the owners how the survey should proceed off trail. Surveying in Caverns of Sonora will never be a TSA or widely open project. Off trail access is tightly restricted. Jack told me The pretty part of the cave is off trail and it is not shown because to move through those sections of the cave is to do damage. In fact, the owners ask permission of each other before going off trail. If additional off trail surveying is approved, it will be carefully monitored by the owners with each team member specifically approved for access. George -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could make a great TSA activity. Mark - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
George, This is an interesting report on your early survey of The Caverns of Sonora. The Carbide Corner section of the ICS issue of The Texas Caver has an account of an early trip into Mayfield Cave by Jimmy Walker and me. This occurred at the end of 1955 or the beginning of 1956. Jimmy and I always felt that we, along with Bob Hudson and Ralph Derby, were the second or third group into the cave after the portion beyond The Pit was discovered by the Dallas group in September, 1955. It is ironic that Jimmy and Bob steered the Dallas group to Mayfield to avoid being with them on the same weekend at another cave that they thought would be better. Carl Kunath has documented evidence that there may have been several groups of spelunkers ahead of us into the new discovery. In any case, Jimmy's portion of our story emphasizes how fragile the far reaches of the cave were and that damage was inevitable. This is also evidenced by Jack Burch's comment to you that the pretty part of the cave is off trail and to move through those sections of the cave is to do damage. Jimmy and I agree that this very early trip was the underground adventure of a lifetime and one that we will never forget. I hope that you will allow all of us to see your rendition of the geologic details when they are complete. Fritz Holt -Original Message- From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@warpdriveonline.com] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:34 PM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly My study of Caverns of Sonora that I referred to in my earlier message is also a survey. Many years ago, Jack Burch established a precise transit survey through the commercial section, with a few short bits extending off-trail. However his sketch was rudimentary and begged for detail. After several trips to the cave just to talk with the owners and manager (not to enter the cave), I was given permission to conduct a survey. We agreed to what in essence is an experiment. I have produced a highly detailed and precise sketch of the transit survey, loaded with geologic and other details. On average, sketching 15 m of passage took about 6 hours. The point was to see if this level of detail and precision (most sketched features are measured, not sketched by eyeballing their size and position) would tell us something important about the cave that would otherwise not be discovered. The answer is, I don't know yet. I was going back over my sketches filling in some additional geologic details when the ICS and moving to New Mexico put that work on the backburner. I'm hoping that this year I'll finish those geologic details and then look at the results and determine if the extra effort was worth it beyond a series of lovely, exquisitely detailed and precise sketches. Depending on those results, I'll discuss with the owners how the survey should proceed off trail. Surveying in Caverns of Sonora will never be a TSA or widely open project. Off trail access is tightly restricted. Jack told me The pretty part of the cave is off trail and it is not shown because to move through those sections of the cave is to do damage. In fact, the owners ask permission of each other before going off trail. If additional off trail surveying is approved, it will be carefully monitored by the owners with each team member specifically approved for access. George -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could make a great TSA activity. Mark - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
George, The CRF projects now days ask for 4 members on a survey, the fourth is to detail the surround. They do this with a book that list the different attributes (ie type of floor, ceiling, etc.). Unfortunately, this list of attributes was produced for Lechiguiha which gave me some problems when I was surveying in Cumberland Gap, VA. Also some of attributes required interpretation as to genesis or mineralogy. But by doing a list you could produce layers for a computer map and see the spatial relationship of features. I think it is a great idea. At the least, I think it would be very valuable to take strikes and dips at each station. Maps be should more than a pretty wall hanging. Josh On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:34 PM, George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.comwrote: My study of Caverns of Sonora that I referred to in my earlier message is also a survey. Many years ago, Jack Burch established a precise transit survey through the commercial section, with a few short bits extending off-trail. However his sketch was rudimentary and begged for detail. After several trips to the cave just to talk with the owners and manager (not to enter the cave), I was given permission to conduct a survey. We agreed to what in essence is an experiment. I have produced a highly detailed and precise sketch of the transit survey, loaded with geologic and other details. On average, sketching 15 m of passage took about 6 hours. The point was to see if this level of detail and precision (most sketched features are measured, not sketched by eyeballing their size and position) would tell us something important about the cave that would otherwise not be discovered. The answer is, I don't know yet. I was going back over my sketches filling in some additional geologic details when the ICS and moving to New Mexico put that work on the backburner. I'm hoping that this year I'll finish those geologic details and then look at the results and determine if the extra effort was worth it beyond a series of lovely, exquisitely detailed and precise sketches. Depending on those results, I'll discuss with the owners how the survey should proceed off trail. Surveying in Caverns of Sonora will never be a TSA or widely open project. Off trail access is tightly restricted. Jack told me The pretty part of the cave is off trail and it is not shown because to move through those sections of the cave is to do damage. In fact, the owners ask permission of each other before going off trail. If additional off trail surveying is approved, it will be carefully monitored by the owners with each team member specifically approved for access. George -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could make a great TSA activity. Mark - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
Some of the work has been published: Bogdan Onac, George Veni, and William B. White. 2001. Depositional environment for metatyuyamunite and related minerals from Caverns of Sonora, TX (U.S.A.) European Journal of Mineralogy, 13:135-143. I'd be glad to send a PDF of it to anyone who is interested. The article includes a silhouette map of the cave, plus a detailed section that I sketched and which Peter Sprouse drafted for me. That little section of map gives an idea of the level of detail sketched throughout the cave so far. I plan to publish all of the information when it's complete. George -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] I hope that you will allow all of us to see your rendition of the geologic details when they are complete. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
One of the things I'm considering in how to move forward in studying and surveying the cave is the technologies that are available now that were unheard of when I started my efforts many years ago. The purpose of the work is good and useful information. A pretty map is a nice byproduct. George From: Josh Rubinstein [mailto:kars...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 2:51 PM To: George Veni Cc: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly George, The CRF projects now days ask for 4 members on a survey, the fourth is to detail the surround. They do this with a book that list the different attributes (ie type of floor, ceiling, etc.). Unfortunately, this list of attributes was produced for Lechiguiha which gave me some problems when I was surveying in Cumberland Gap, VA. Also some of attributes required interpretation as to genesis or mineralogy. But by doing a list you could produce layers for a computer map and see the spatial relationship of features. I think it is a great idea. At the least, I think it would be very valuable to take strikes and dips at each station. Maps be should more than a pretty wall hanging. Josh On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:34 PM, George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.com wrote: My study of Caverns of Sonora that I referred to in my earlier message is also a survey. Many years ago, Jack Burch established a precise transit survey through the commercial section, with a few short bits extending off-trail. However his sketch was rudimentary and begged for detail. After several trips to the cave just to talk with the owners and manager (not to enter the cave), I was given permission to conduct a survey. We agreed to what in essence is an experiment. I have produced a highly detailed and precise sketch of the transit survey, loaded with geologic and other details. On average, sketching 15 m of passage took about 6 hours. The point was to see if this level of detail and precision (most sketched features are measured, not sketched by eyeballing their size and position) would tell us something important about the cave that would otherwise not be discovered. The answer is, I don't know yet. I was going back over my sketches filling in some additional geologic details when the ICS and moving to New Mexico put that work on the backburner. I'm hoping that this year I'll finish those geologic details and then look at the results and determine if the extra effort was worth it beyond a series of lovely, exquisitely detailed and precise sketches. Depending on those results, I'll discuss with the owners how the survey should proceed off trail. Surveying in Caverns of Sonora will never be a TSA or widely open project. Off trail access is tightly restricted. Jack told me The pretty part of the cave is off trail and it is not shown because to move through those sections of the cave is to do damage. In fact, the owners ask permission of each other before going off trail. If additional off trail surveying is approved, it will be carefully monitored by the owners with each team member specifically approved for access. George -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:03 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly As for there being 7 miles in Sonora, I doubt it, but if true why hasn't anyone started a serious resurvey project? Could make a great TSA activity. Mark - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com http://texascavers.com/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
George, I'd be very thankful for a copy of that PDF. Caverns of Sonora is one of my favorite caves. If I can help in your endeavors in anyway, let me know. Charles On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 3:59 PM, George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.com wrote: Some of the work has been published: Bogdan Onac, George Veni, and William B. White. 2001. Depositional environment for metatyuyamunite and related minerals from Caverns of Sonora, TX (U.S.A.) European Journal of Mineralogy, 13:135-143. I'd be glad to send a PDF of it to anyone who is interested. The article includes a silhouette map of the cave, plus a detailed section that I sketched and which Peter Sprouse drafted for me. That little section of map gives an idea of the level of detail sketched throughout the cave so far. I plan to publish all of the information when it's complete. George -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] I hope that you will allow all of us to see your rendition of the geologic details when they are complete. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly
The file is attached as is my appreciation for your work and support. George -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 3:47 PM To: George Veni Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Sonora Butterfly George, I'd be very thankful for a copy of that PDF. Caverns of Sonora is one of my favorite caves. If I can help in your endeavors in anyway, let me know. Charles On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 3:59 PM, George Veni gv...@warpdriveonline.com wrote: Some of the work has been published: Bogdan Onac, George Veni, and William B. White. 2001. Depositional environment for metatyuyamunite and related minerals from Caverns of Sonora, TX (U.S.A.) European Journal of Mineralogy, 13:135-143. I'd be glad to send a PDF of it to anyone who is interested. The article includes a silhouette map of the cave, plus a detailed section that I sketched and which Peter Sprouse drafted for me. That little section of map gives an idea of the level of detail sketched throughout the cave so far. I plan to publish all of the information when it's complete. George -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] I hope that you will allow all of us to see your rendition of the geologic details when they are complete. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com Sonora metatyuyamunite.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document
[Texascavers] TSA Winter Meeting Membership, TC Access, and Website Changes Now Completed
Butch Fralia, our TSA website extraordinaire, has informed me that after laboring for countless hours in a previously smoke-filled back room, hunched over a steaming keyboard, that the changes to the TSA membership fees, TEXAS CAVER access, and to website have been completed! You'll recall that these motions were made and approved at the TSA Winter Business meeting at CBSP earlier this month at CBSP. To recap: Membership Levels * Single Membership - $20.00 Voted to change to Single Membership (online TC) - $15.00 and Single Membership (mailed TC) - $25.00 Other changes made: * Family Membership - $30.00 - Two votes in TSA Elections Changes to Family Membership (online TC) - $20.00 and Family Membership (mailed TC) - $30.00 * Student Membership - $15.00 Changes to Student Membership (online TC) - $10.00 and Student Membership (mailed TC) - $20.00. Add No voting. * Libraries - $20.00 Leave. Add No voting. TEXAS CAVER access Voted to make all TC's older than one year now available online to all, add link on the cascading menu under Services and off the announcements on the home page. With any luck, this will entice new members to join the TSA and to bring prodigal members (i.e. Gill) back to the fold! Still to do: A suggestion was made for a photos and trip report section where folks could send Butch (and me) submissions. Butch will add these as soon as YOU send him something! Go here: http://www.cavetexas.org/index.html to see what Mr. Fralia has wrought. Thanks, as always, to Butch for making the modifications so quickly and for his hard work and dedication to the TSA and maintaining the website! And a big thanks to all who came out to the Winter meeting and made these improvements possible. Mark TSA - Chair
Re: [Texascavers] TSA Winter Meeting Membership, TC Access, and Website Changes Now Completed
How many libraries receive Texas Caver? julia -Original Message- From: mark.al...@l-3com.com To: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, Jan 28, 2010 2:25 pm Subject: [Texascavers] TSA Winter Meeting Membership, TC Access, and Website Changes Now Completed Butch Fralia, our TSA website extraordinaire, has informed me that after laboring for countless hours in a previously smoke-filled back room, hunched over a steaming keyboard, that the changes to the TSA membership fees, TEXAS CAVER access, and to website have been completed! You'll recall that these motions were made and approved at the TSA Winter Business meeting at CBSP earlier this month at CBSP. To recap: Membership Levels Single Membership - $20.00 Voted to change to Single Membership (online TC) - $15.00 and Single Membership (mailed TC) - $25.00 Other changes made: Family Membership - $30.00 - Two votes in TSA Elections Changes to Family Membership (online TC) - $20.00 and Family Membership (mailed TC) - $30.00 Student Membership - $15.00 Changes to Student Membership (online TC) - $10.00 and Student Membership (mailed TC) - $20.00. Add No voting. Libraries - $20.00 Leave. Add No voting. TEXAS CAVER access Voted to make all TC’s older than one year now available online to all, add link on the cascading menu under Services and off the announcements on the home page. With any luck, this will entice new members to join the TSA and to bring prodigal members (i.e. Gill) back to the fold! Still to do: A suggestion was made for a photos and trip report section where folks could send Butch (and me) submissions. Butch will add these as soon as YOU send him something! Go here: http://www.cavetexas.org/index.html to see what Mr. Fralia has wrought. Thanks, as always, to Butch for making the modifications so quickly and for his hard work and dedication to the TSA and maintaining the website! And a big thanks to all who came out to the Winter meeting and made these improvements possible. Mark TSA - Chair =
RE: [Texascavers] TSA Winter Meeting Membership, TC Access, and Website Changes Now Completed
It was Texas State (?) in San Marcos, UT, and Baylor, Julia. The Aggies need to get on the ball! Mark From: germa...@aol.com [mailto:germa...@aol.com] Sent: Thu 1/28/2010 2:40 PM To: Alman, Mark @ EOS; texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA Winter Meeting Membership, TC Access, and Website Changes Now Completed How many libraries receive Texas Caver? julia
