Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal

2016-09-01 Thread Fritz Holt via Texascavers 
Where you live, your occupation, caving experience, close caving friends, any 
other facts that might be important to you. I had only seen your name recently. 
Fritz Holt

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Karen Perry via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> So Fritz what would you like to know about me?
> Karen
> 
> 
> From: Fritz Holt via Texascavers 
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
> Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2016 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal
> 
> I don't know Karen Perry but would like to read a short bio on who and where 
> she is.
> Fritz Holt
> fritz...@gmail.com
> An old 50's and 60's spelunker. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Karen Perry via Texascavers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The entire incident is recorded in detailed time log, complete with 
>> newspaper articles in the November 1971 Texas Caver.The boys that drowned 
>> were Chris Cleveland 18, and Bruce Stone 17, both from Houston, Texas.
>> 
>> Yep, I still have some caving stuff like early Texas Cavers. By the way, 
>> does anyone have a copy of the Paleo inventory from Inner Space cavers pre 
>> 1974 that list the Homo Sapien tooth? By 1974 it hafd been removed due to 
>> religious outcry so to avoid controversy the owners/ board decided to simply 
>> remove the tooth from the inventory log.
>> 
>> Later,
>> Karen Perry
>> 
>> 
>> From: Charles Loving via Texascavers 
>> To: Cavers Texas  
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 10:57 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal
>> 
>> A couple of people, scouts I think, swam the wrong way in the syphon and 
>> drowned. It was back when I was caving a lot. Raines and I swam the syphon 
>> with a Rayovac flashlight and two canteen belts latched together. The 
>> flashlight lasted just long enough for us to get back out. Really dumb.
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:53 PM, David via Texascavers 
>>  wrote:
>> I have always wanted to see a map of the dived passages.
>> I have heard they are under water.
>> 
>> __ _
>> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
>> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/ 
>> texascavers@texascavers.com/
>> http://lists.texascavers.com/ listinfo/texascavers
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Charlie Loving
>> 
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Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal

2016-09-01 Thread Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología AC . via Texascavers 
Thank you very much. friends..
:)

2016-09-01 17:46 GMT-05:00 Karen Perry via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com>:

> So Fritz what would you like to know about me?
> Karen
>
>
> --
> *From:* Fritz Holt via Texascavers 
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 1, 2016 3:12 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal
>
> I don't know Karen Perry but would like to read a short bio on who and
> where she is.
> Fritz Holt
> fritz...@gmail.com
> An old 50's and 60's spelunker.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 31, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Karen Perry via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
> The entire incident is recorded in detailed time log, complete with
> newspaper articles in the November 1971 Texas Caver.The boys that drowned
> were Chris Cleveland 18, and Bruce Stone 17, both from Houston, Texas.
>
> Yep, I still have some caving stuff like early Texas Cavers. By the way,
> does anyone have a copy of the Paleo inventory from Inner Space cavers pre
> 1974 that list the Homo Sapien tooth? By 1974 it hafd been removed due to
> religious outcry so to avoid controversy the owners/ board decided to
> simply remove the tooth from the inventory log.
>
> Later,
> Karen Perry
>
>
> --
> *From:* Charles Loving via Texascavers 
> *To:* Cavers Texas 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2016 10:57 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal
>
> A couple of people, scouts I think, swam the wrong way in the syphon and
> drowned. It was back when I was caving a lot. Raines and I swam the syphon
> with a Rayovac flashlight and two canteen belts latched together. The
> flashlight lasted just long enough for us to get back out. Really dumb.
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:53 PM, David via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
> I have always wanted to see a map of the dived passages.
> I have heard they are under water.
>
> __ _
> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
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> texascavers@texascavers.com/
> 
> http://lists.texascavers.com/ listinfo/texascavers
> 
>
>
>
>
> --
> Charlie Loving
>
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>


-- 

LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZ

Coordinadora de la Comisión Internacional de Técnicas y Materiales de la UIS

Instructor Nacional Certificado de Espeleología por la FMAS

Directora de MP- Mex Caving

Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, A.C. (Fundadora)

Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)

Centro de Estudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)

Grupo Espeleológico Vaxakmen, A.C. (Socia)

Grupo Espeleológico EspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)

Grupo Pionero de Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)

Association for Mexican Cave Studies (Colaboradora)

Texas Speleological Association (Socia)

Unión Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)
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Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal

2016-09-01 Thread Karen Perry via Texascavers 
So Fritz what would you like to know about me?Karen


  From: Fritz Holt via Texascavers 
 To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
 Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2016 3:12 PM
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal
   
I don't know Karen Perry but would like to read a short bio on who and where 
she is.Fritz Holtfritztcr@gmail.comAn old 50's and 60's spelunker. 

Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 31, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Karen Perry via Texascavers 
 wrote:


The entire incident is recorded in detailed time log, complete with newspaper 
articles in the November 1971 Texas Caver.The boys that drowned were Chris 
Cleveland 18, and Bruce Stone 17, both from Houston, Texas.
Yep, I still have some caving stuff like early Texas Cavers. By the way, does 
anyone have a copy of the Paleo inventory from Inner Space cavers pre 1974 that 
list the Homo Sapien tooth? By 1974 it hafd been removed due to religious 
outcry so to avoid controversy the owners/ board decided to simply remove the 
tooth from the inventory log.

Later,
Karen Perry


  From: Charles Loving via Texascavers 
 To: Cavers Texas  
 Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 10:57 AM
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal
  
A couple of people, scouts I think, swam the wrong way in the syphon and 
drowned. It was back when I was caving a lot. Raines and I swam the syphon with 
a Rayovac flashlight and two canteen belts latched together. The flashlight 
lasted just long enough for us to get back out. Really dumb.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:53 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:

I have always wanted to see a map of the dived passages.I have heard they are 
under water.
__ _
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-- 
Charlie Loving
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Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal

2016-09-01 Thread Fritz Holt via Texascavers 
I don't know Karen Perry but would like to read a short bio on who and where 
she is.
Fritz Holt
fritz...@gmail.com
An old 50's and 60's spelunker. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Karen Perry via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> The entire incident is recorded in detailed time log, complete with newspaper 
> articles in the November 1971 Texas Caver.The boys that drowned were Chris 
> Cleveland 18, and Bruce Stone 17, both from Houston, Texas.
> 
> Yep, I still have some caving stuff like early Texas Cavers. By the way, does 
> anyone have a copy of the Paleo inventory from Inner Space cavers pre 1974 
> that list the Homo Sapien tooth? By 1974 it hafd been removed due to 
> religious outcry so to avoid controversy the owners/ board decided to simply 
> remove the tooth from the inventory log.
> 
> Later,
> Karen Perry
> 
> 
> From: Charles Loving via Texascavers 
> To: Cavers Texas  
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 10:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal
> 
> A couple of people, scouts I think, swam the wrong way in the syphon and 
> drowned. It was back when I was caving a lot. Raines and I swam the syphon 
> with a Rayovac flashlight and two canteen belts latched together. The 
> flashlight lasted just long enough for us to get back out. Really dumb.
> 
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:53 PM, David via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> I have always wanted to see a map of the dived passages.
> I have heard they are under water.
> 
> __ _
> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/ 
> texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/ listinfo/texascavers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Charlie Loving
> 
> ___
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Re: [Texascavers] UT Grotto Meeting

2016-09-01 Thread Logan McNatt via Texascavers 

  
  
Thanks Aubri!


On 9/1/2016 3:40 PM, Aubri Jenson via
  Texascavers wrote:


  For those that have asked, Ben Schwartz'
presentation on Tears of the Turtle exploration in Montana has
been archived and is available here: https://www.periscope.tv/UTGrotto

  
Aubri Jenson
  

UT Grotto Vice Chair
  
  
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Pete
  Lindsley via Texascavers 
  wrote:
  
Aubri, would it be
  possible to mention the more exact TIME plus perhaps the
  DATE via texascavers.com
  e-mail? This seems like a very interesting program.
  
  
  You are keeping us old time cavers that don't have
time to tweet, twitter, facebook, and the users of the
other half dozen time-wasters and security holes in the
dark. 


 - Pete
   NSS#5566

  
On Aug 28, 2016, at 9:02 PM, Aubri Jenson via
  Texascavers wrote:


  

  Greetings, cavers!
  At the grotto meeting this week, Benjamin
  Schwartz will present on cave exploration in
  the Bob Marshall Wilderness, Montana! This
  includes Tears of the Turtle, the deepest
  known cave in the continental US at over 1,600
  ft below ground surface. It is a challenging
  cave not only for its depth, but for cold
  temperatures, sucking mud, and a 22 mile hike
  to get to the entrance. In July, Ben was part
  of a team that camped at the bottom of Tears
  to continue survey...and it still goes!


Note: We will continue meeting in Burdine
  116 for the Fall semester. (This was what UT
  assigned, possibly due to renovations in
  Painter Hall.) 


The presentation portion of the grotto meeting will be live streamed via Periscope https://www.periscope.tv/utgrotto at approximately 8:30pm CST (the actual time will be announced via Twitter @UTGrotto). 
***

  The
  meeting is at 7:45pm in Burdine 116.
  Follow this link to a map of where the
  building is located on the University of
  Texas campus: http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/bur.html
  For
  information on Underground Texas Grotto
  activities, please see www.utgrotto.org
  Before
  the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for
  happy hour specials. This is the best
  place to park and meet folks walking over
  to the meeting. After the meeting we
  continue with the decades long tradition
  to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall
  tales of caving at Posse East! www.posse-east.com
  See
  you there!
  Cheers, 
  
Aubri
  Jenson
UT Grotto Vice-chair


  

  

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Re: [Texascavers] UT Grotto Meeting

2016-09-01 Thread Aubri Jenson via Texascavers 
For those that have asked, Ben Schwartz' presentation on Tears of the
Turtle exploration in Montana has been archived and is available here:
https://www.periscope.tv/UTGrotto

Aubri Jenson
UT Grotto Vice Chair

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Pete Lindsley via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> Aubri, would it be possible to mention the more exact TIME plus perhaps
> the DATE via texascavers.com e-mail? This seems like a very interesting
> program.
>
> You are keeping us old time cavers that don't have time to tweet, twitter,
> facebook, and the users of the other half dozen time-wasters and security
> holes in the dark.
>
>  - Pete
>NSS#5566
>
> On Aug 28, 2016, at 9:02 PM, Aubri Jenson via Texascavers wrote:
>
> Greetings, cavers!
> At the grotto meeting this week, Benjamin Schwartz will present on cave
> exploration in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, Montana! This includes Tears of
> the Turtle, the deepest known cave in the continental US at over 1,600 ft
> below ground surface. It is a challenging cave not only for its depth, but
> for cold temperatures, sucking mud, and a 22 mile hike to get to the
> entrance. In July, Ben was part of a team that camped at the bottom of
> Tears to continue survey...and it still goes!
>
> Note: We will continue meeting in Burdine 116 for the Fall semester. (This
> was what UT assigned, possibly due to renovations in Painter Hall.)
>
> The presentation portion of the grotto meeting will be live streamed via
> Periscope https://www.periscope.tv/utgrotto at approximately 8:30pm CST
> (the actual time will be announced via Twitter @UTGrotto).
> ***
>
> The meeting is at 7:45pm in Burdine 116. Follow this link to a map of
> where the building is located on the University of Texas campus:
> http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/bur.html
> 
>
> For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see
> www.utgrotto.org
>
> Before the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for
> happy hour specials. This is the best place to park and meet folks walking
> over to the meeting. After the meeting we continue with the decades long
> tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall tales of caving at Posse
> East! www.posse-east.com 
>
> See you there!
> Cheers,
> Aubri Jenson
> UT Grotto Vice-chair
>
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>
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[Texascavers] Carrizal - a personal story

2016-09-01 Thread David via Texascavers 
Carrizal was my 2nd cave in Mexico in late December of 1984.

I had only been horizontal caving in about 20 small Texas caves, and the 3
big caves in Langtry.   I had not yet met any cavers outside of about 8
A.S.S. cavers.   ( Although, Ronnie Feiseler had giving a special slide
presentation at my first A.S.S. meeting in late September of 1984. )

We had done all the lower passages of Palmito the day before Carrizal.

I learned how to say guano after Carrizal, as I thought it was called "bat
iguana."
The mayor's staff in Candela could not locate a key to the ejido gate, so
we parked about 1-1/2 mile north of the cave and hiked in.

Trip leader was James Mueller, who had some caving experience and might
have had some idea where the cave was.   ( He lives now in the Burnett area
and is a songbird specialist, and former professor of horn-toads. )

Other participants were Mary Kay Manning who is an expert professional
naturalist, and daughter of old-timer caver James Manning.   She nearly
died on our hike to Precipicio the following day, and was saved from
rolling off the big cliff by a lechuguilla plant.

Jim Hudson, of Boerne, who would the next day would risk his life to save
mine in the first drop of Precipicio ( my 2nd time on rope and first time
in a cave ).

Also, Freddie Platt of Houston who seemed like a young gung-ho caver, but
disappeared around 1985 ( meaning he lost contact with anybody I knew that
knew him. )

Steve Tonnesen now of Austin who has been an a electrical engineer for 30
years.Steve saved my life about 3 hours later on my 3rd time on rope (
2nd pit in Precipicio )
He is probably a good canoeist or kayaker by now or owns a yacht.   He was
the only smart Aggie I ever met.   Had he not saved my life, the other 4
cavers below me would have been trapped and died of dehydration.   ( As I
was wearing the only vertical gear the 6 cavers had ).   Steve was above me
and had a rockclimber's Figure-8, but he had no harness and had only used a
Figure-8 once in his life rappelling at Enchanted Rock.

Surprisingly, they all went caving with me again in 1985.
Steve and I did a canoe trip north of Dallas in 1988, and never heard from
him again.   Freddie and I did some ridgewalking in the hill-country in
1985.   Jim and his wife and I and an female Aggie caver, Audry Wright went
to Klar's Ranch Salamander Cave near Boerne in 1987.   I never saw him
again.   We send each other a Christmas greeting on Facebook.Mary Kay
and I did 2 trips to the Guads and we have met up to socialize once a
year.   I bumped into her on a beach near the Boliver Peninsula about 2
years ago.   I never heard from Jim Hudson ever again after Precipicio.
He was supposedly a member of the informal group called The Boerne
Speleomaniacs in 1984 and 85 and was not an Aggie.

Anyways, I took cavers once a year to Carrizal in 1985, 86, 87, etc up
until about 1994.

It is all a blurry fuzzy memory of forgotten names and forgotten faces, and
we did not take photos.

Carrizal was always for us just a side trip before or after the principal
primary destination.

There are 200+ nicer caves in Mexico.   But it is an opportunity for a good
cave-diver to push it one more time.

David Locklear
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Re: [Texascavers] Grutas del Carrizal

2016-09-01 Thread Charles Loving via Texascavers 
Terry Plemons, Ed, Fito and I were in the village and talked to the mayor.
We were doing a tour of the river and the mines in the mountains. We talked
to him about Carrizal and he allowed as how it was dangerous and that it
should have a gate to fence to keep people from wandering in. He was well
aware of the problems as was his son a student at Texas Tech who was there.

We did visit the cave but wore masks.

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 12:53 PM, Gill Ediger via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> People who were raised around chickens, pigeons, and other birds in large
> numbers often have a good resistance to histo as a result of being
> continuously inoculated. Most of them never knew they were sick as the
> doses and reactions were small but cumulative enough render them nominally
> immune to future exposure. Carrizal has long been known as a histo habitat.
> There was a faded, rusty sign posted on a building near the entrances--and
> that was 50 years ago. My daddy raised chickens and pheasants when I was a
> kid and I've been in Carrizal a dozen or  more times without mask
> protection or obvious infection. But we know from experience that not
> everybody can do that--they have gotten sick.
> --Ediger
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 5:48 PM, Asociación Coahuilense de
> Espeleología AC. via Texascavers  wrote:
>
>
> Gill thank you.
>
> The situation is this.. The Secretary of Tourism create a project to use
> the cave for tourism, they tender a project of ecotourism and
> sustainability in the cave. A constructor win the tender.
>
> The cave have an  incident in the month of march, 25 people (teachers and
> students scouts) are sick all of them. But the woman of SECTUR said she
> visit there and not have fungus...
> They ask me if I can make a test,  I said yes. the Dr. Biologist from UANL
>  Javier Banda and Sergi Gomez they will help me to do this test.. The next
> week I will visit the cave with a security level 3 (is high)  to take some
> samples of  soil  and air, to send a laboratory.
>
> With the result of that test,  we can close the cave, if we don´t do that.
> They can open the cave for tourism an is a bad idea.
>
> Monica Ponce
>
> 2016-08-31 15:16 GMT-05:00 Gill Ediger via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com>:
>
> Moni--I would suggest that you not visit Cueva de Carrizal and not take or
> send anyone else there. There have been sufficient incidents  of people
> getting histoplasmosis to warn them there is a danger of contacting a lung
> fungus. Only people with a known or demonstrated resistance to histo should
> visit that cave.
> --Ediger
>
>
> On Saturday, August 27, 2016 1:31 AM, Asociación Coahuilense de
> Espeleología AC. via Texascavers  wrote:
>
>
> thank you Bill, is a wonderful information... but is all the investigation
> the cavers did in this cave, no more a recently years?
>
> Moni
>
> 2016-08-26 20:13 GMT-05:00 Mixon Bill via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com>:
>
> Moni -- Map of Grutta de Carrizal is at
> http://www.mexicancaves.org/ maps/1825.pdf
> 
>
> Original description of the cave is in AMCS bulletin 1
> http://www.mexicancaves.org/ bul/bul1.pdf
>  (~100 MB)
>
>
> There is a long article on drowning accident in Carrizal in old AMCS
> Newsletter vol 3 #4, at
> http://www.mexicancaves.org/ nl/AMCS_NL_V3.pdf
> 
>
> --Mixon
> -- --
> Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.
> -- --
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> (unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org
>
> __ _
> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> texascavers@texascavers.com/
> 
> http://lists.texascavers.com/ listinfo/texascavers
> 
>
>
>
>
> --
> LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZ
> Coordinadora de la Comisión Internacional de Técnicas y Materiales de la
> UIS
> Instructor Nacional Certificado de Espeleología por la FMAS
> Directora de MP- Mex Caving
> Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, A.C. (Fundadora)
> Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)
> Centro de Estudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)
> Grupo Espeleológico Vaxakmen, A.C. (Socia)
> Grupo Espeleológico EspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)
> Grupo Pionero de Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)
> Association for Mexican Cave Studies (Colaboradora)
> Texas Speleological Association (Socia)
> Unión Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)
>
>
>

Re: [Texascavers] Grutas del Carrizal

2016-09-01 Thread Gill Ediger via Texascavers 
People who were raised around chickens, pigeons, and other birds in large 
numbers often have a good resistance to histo as a result of being continuously 
inoculated. Most of them never knew they were sick as the doses and reactions 
were small but cumulative enough render them nominally immune to future 
exposure. Carrizal has long been known as a histo habitat. There was a faded, 
rusty sign posted on a building near the entrances--and that was 50 years ago. 
My daddy raised chickens and pheasants when I was a kid and I've been in 
Carrizal a dozen or  more times without mask protection or obvious infection. 
But we know from experience that not everybody can do that--they have gotten 
sick. --Ediger 

On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 5:48 PM, Asociación Coahuilense de 
Espeleología AC. via Texascavers  wrote:
 

 Gill thank you.
The situation is this.. The Secretary of Tourism create a project to use the 
cave for tourism, they tender a project of ecotourism and sustainability in the 
cave. A constructor win the tender.
The cave have an  incident in the month of march, 25 people (teachers and 
students scouts) are sick all of them. But the woman of SECTUR said she visit 
there and not have fungus... They ask me if I can make a test,  I said yes. the 
Dr. Biologist from UANL  Javier Banda and Sergi Gomez they will help me to do 
this test.. The next week I will visit the cave with a security level 3 (is 
high)  to take some samples of  soil  and air, to send a laboratory.
With the result of that test,  we can close the cave, if we don´t do that. They 
can open the cave for tourism an is a bad idea.
Monica Ponce
2016-08-31 15:16 GMT-05:00 Gill Ediger via Texascavers 
:

Moni--I would suggest that you not visit Cueva de Carrizal and not take or send 
anyone else there. There have been sufficient incidents  of people getting 
histoplasmosis to warn them there is a danger of contacting a lung fungus. Only 
people with a known or demonstrated resistance to histo should visit that cave. 
--Ediger 

On Saturday, August 27, 2016 1:31 AM, Asociación Coahuilense de 
Espeleología AC. via Texascavers  wrote:
 

 thank you Bill, is a wonderful information... but is all the investigation the 
cavers did in this cave, no more a recently years?
Moni
2016-08-26 20:13 GMT-05:00 Mixon Bill via Texascavers 
:

Moni -- Map of Grutta de Carrizal is at
http://www.mexicancaves.org/ maps/1825.pdf

Original description of the cave is in AMCS bulletin 1
http://www.mexicancaves.org/ bul/bul1.pdf (~100 MB)

There is a long article on drowning accident in Carrizal in old AMCS Newsletter 
vol 3 #4, at
http://www.mexicancaves.org/ nl/AMCS_NL_V3.pdf

--Mixon
-- --
Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.
-- --
You may "reply" to the address this message
(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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-- 
LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZCoordinadorade la Comisión Internacional de 
Técnicas y Materiales de la UISInstructorNacional Certificado de Espeleología 
por la FMASDirectora de MP- MexCaving Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, 
A.C. (Fundadora)Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)Centro 
deEstudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)Grupo EspeleológicoVaxakmen, A.C. 
(Socia)Grupo EspeleológicoEspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)Grupo Pionero de 
Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)Association for Mexican Cave Studies 
(Colaboradora)Texas Speleological Association (Socia)Unión Mexicana de 
Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)

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-- 
LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZCoordinadorade la Comisión Internacional de 
Técnicas y Materiales de la UISInstructorNacional Certificado de Espeleología 
por la FMASDirectora de MP- MexCaving Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, 
A.C. (Fundadora)Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)Centro 
deEstudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)Grupo EspeleológicoVaxakmen, A.C. 
(Socia)Grupo EspeleológicoEspeleoZots