[Texascavers] the future of cave mapping?

[vivbone]

I look forward to the day we may explore caves while auto-3D-mapping with our 
smart phones.
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/7489/20140524/google-project-tango-3d-mapping-tablets-may-be-the-ipad-killer-the-world-is-waiting-for.htm


sounds even better than the x-box mapper we saw at TSA convention in terms of 
passage modeling at a caver scale.
-Viv

Re: [Texascavers] Bigfoot

[vivbone]

Cave Without a Name has some bear claw marks on the wall. The owner, Tom, 
pointed them out to me on the wall as you approach the stream passage. They 
aren't highlighted for tourists because they could be easily damaged.

> 
> On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 2:47 AM, David  wrote:
> A caver in the San Antonio area once told me ( while sittiing around the
> camp-fire in 1995 ) that they were in a cave in or near Bexar County
> and saw claw marks on the wall, that were made by an animal that
> appeared to be taller than a man and appeared the animal was trying to
> climb out of the cave.    I think he said it was a short pit
> entrance, and there were no bones in the cave of such animal.
> 
> My fuzzy memory is that in this conversation he mentioned a Chivos Cave, but
> I don't know if that was the one he was referring to.
> 
> I think he said there were 4 scratch marks on each hand though.

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 

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Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy

[vivbone]

   If you're in Texas, it's Poison Ivy. Poison Oak grows on the West coast. the 
leaf and habit is pretty different, but still 3 leaflets per leaf, and 
variable. Poison Ivy forms a vine more, but will also form a bush. 
     best way to prevent it is wash and wash and wash again with a good oil 
cutting soap. I use dawn or the brand "technu" which is specific for poison 
ivy. If you're getting new breakout bumps, then you haven't washed it all off 
yet. Half frozen wet paper towels feel really good on it.
     No one is immune to poison ivy. For some people it takes more exposure. 
The more you are exposed to it, the more sensitive you become.  You cannot 
develop an immunity.
Vivian Loftin



 From: Bill Walden 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy
 


When I was young I would break out horribly from poison ivy. At age 7 (1949) I 
underwent a series of shots for poison ivy. Following those shots I didn't 
break out from contact with poison Ivy. Today it is rare for me to get a bubble 
or two after contact with that plant. I believe that the shots are no longer 
given.

Bill Walden



On 10/23/2013 8:59 AM, Gill Edigar wrote:

A technical point or two: Reaction to Poison Ivy, etc, is a chemical contact 
condition, not an allergy.  
>And I'm not sure that we can describe resistance to it as an 'immunity' since 
>it's not a disease. 
>I'm a little unsure about Tom's suggestion to use 'mineral spirits' which is a 
>carcinogenic organic solvent, i.e.: paint thinner (among other things) and 
>should not really be put on the skin. It surely ought to get rid of any oils, 
>however. 
>Thoughts? Info? 
>--Ediger 
>
>
>
>On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Kurt L. Menking  wrote:
>
>I also have a small patch of it from TCR this weekend. 
>>> 
>>>For many years I was immune, but while clearing our campsite with a weed 
>>>eater for the first TCR near Luling I was super exposed.  I was in shorts, 
>>>sandals, etc.  I had no idea there was poison ivy around but came down with 
>>>it all over.  After a few days of trying everything and it only getting 
>>>worse I went to the Dr.  It was better the next day, and completely gone in 
>>>3-4 days.  Prednisone and Desoximetasone cream, both are prescription.
>>> 
>>>Kurt 
>

Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy and Karst

[vivbone]

     If you're in Texas, it's Poison Ivy. Poison Oak grows on the West coast. 
the leaf and habit is pretty different, but still 3 leaflets per leaf, and 
variable. Poison Ivy forms a vine more, but will also form a bush. 
     best way to prevent it is wash and wash and wash again with a good oil 
cutting soap. I use dawn or the brand "technu" which is specific for poison 
ivy. If you're getting new breakout bumps, then you haven't washed it all off 
yet. Half frozen wet paper towels feel really good on it.
     No one is immune to poison ivy. For some people it takes more exposure. 
The more you are exposed to it, the more sensitive you become.  You cannot 
develop an immunity.



 From: Charles Goldsmith 
To: Gill Edigar  
Cc: "Deal, Dwight" ; Cave Texas 
 
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Poison-ivy and Karst
 


Easy Gill, poison oak grows on trees :)



On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 11:05 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:

I've never had anybody successfully identify the difference between poison ivy 
and poison oak for me. They look the same to my eyes. 
>--Ediger
>
>
>
>On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:15 PM,  wrote:
>
>
>>Poison-ivy and Karst
>>
>>How cave related can you get??  (I'll do everything I can to get this site 
>>back on track)
>>
>>I grew up in New York and was terribly allergic to poison ivy as a youngster. 
>> Like, someone burned some  brush with the vines in the pile, a half-mile 
>>away.  Good Lord, was I ever in an awful itchy situation after the smoke 
>>passed over me --.  Fortunately my lungs did not react.
>>
>>When I started to do karst and geological things in upstate NY, I discovered 
>>two things:
>>
>>1. To see the bedrock I had to crawl on my belly like a snake up stream beds.
>>
>>2. I could map the limestone without ever seeing it, just by mapping where 
>>the lush poison ivy grew. (THAT is the Karst tie-in)
>>
>>After I came West, I could more easily see Rocks and I gradually lost my 
>>extreme reaction.  But I learned what George cautioned:  Immunity is lost by 
>>repeated exposure.
>>
>>Then I moved to Texas and discovered Poison Oak.  It makes TREES going up the 
>>cliffs with trunks as big around as Bob Oakley's thighs around springs in the 
>>Big Bend.  ESPECIALLY in what is now Big Bend Ranch State Park.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Texascavers] Solo

[vivbone]

Thank you James. 
Just a side note on the safety issue- 
I felt particularly safe and slept very well, nightmare free even, because I 
was secure in the belief that my ex-husband would not show up there to murder 
me, which was a very  real fear during that time. The fact that no one knew 
where I was another layer of protection; indeed a safety feature.



 From: James Jasek 
To: "vivb...@att.net"  
Cc: Cavetex  
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Solo
 


Thank you for your solo caving experience. You are only the third person to 
admit to actually doing a solo trip. 

Sounds like it was a memorable experience :)

Most cavers seem to condemn solo caving, rightfully so, but I feel there is 
more solo caving going on than cavers admit to. 

I feel a solo trip has a lot to do with the cave and the desire to be 
underground than a disregard for safety 

Thank you

Jim



Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2013, at 1:03 AM, vivb...@att.net wrote:


     My most memorable solo trip was probably the time I decided to go seek 
myself after my first painful nightmare enducing divorce. It must have been 
1993 or so. Summertime in central California. I don't remember everything I had 
in my backpack. But I felt it was suitable for my planned overnight dry camp in 
a fairly small horizontal cave I knew, which was a 3 hr drive and a fairly 
steep 1/2 hr/1 hr hike from home. I do remember that I had a bit too much Jack 
Daniels in that pack. I probably also had my walkman and some tapes.
>     A Hershey's with Almonds was in there. That was what introduced me to the 
>wonderful mouse friend I made that night. He woke me up with his munching by 
>my head. When I shined my headlamp to see who could possibly be making that 
>much noise, he just looked at me and kept on munching. He let me pet him while 
>I let him selectively eat out the almonds. 
>     I did a lot of staring deep into the dark that night. and listening to 
>the very rare drip in an alcove. I didn't even start hitting the Jack until 
>the next morning. Then I fell asleep in the sun at the entrance.
>    I think the Indigo Girls put it well- "I woke up with a headache like my 
>head against a board. Twice as cloudy as I'd been the night before, when I 
>went in seeking clarity". It was a hot hike out in the middle of the 
>afternoon. Whew.
>     I don't remember telling anyone where I went. It was fine. It was a 
>humbling, beautiful, learning experience. It was only disappointing in that I 
>found neither going passage, nor the meaning of life. For that I had to go to 
>Monte Python.
>
>
>-Vivian Loftin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "bmorgan...@aol.com" 
>To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
>Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 6:43 AM
>Subject: [Texascavers] Solo
> 
>
>
>"So, how is solo caving different from solo trail running, solo hiking, or 
solo driving on rural roads."
> 
>It isn't. The truth is that one dark passage much resembles another and the 
additional impediment of ropes and such makes it more trouble than it is worth 
when the glorious outdoors beckons. There are dangers out there too, almost as 
many as in a cave. Just as many places to break your leg plus farmers with 
shotguns, none of which stops me from trespassing solo at every possible 
opportunity. There is absolutely no way anybody is going to find me if I'm out 
exploring previously unexplored jungle when I don't even know which way I going 
to go myself. I was reminded of that the time when I was alone in the trackless 
jungle of Belize some thirty miles from the nearest road when a travertine 
shelf broke causing me to fall into a pit. It was a scary moment but I climbed 
out with no difficulty. From this I concluded that I simply needed to be more 
careful. Ditto for the time on the same trip when I found myself eye to eye 
with 
a huge tommygoff.
> 
>Some people are goal oriented, on a given day they go to a specific place, 
tell people where they are going and when they are expected to return. That's 
not my style, I just like to explore whether above or below ground, and 
exploring means going where you have never been before. There is inherent 
danger 
in that, but I also find it to be safer in that going solo sharpens one's 
perception and causes one to move more slowly and carefully. Despite any such 
danger there is nothing on or under the earth that I like better than sneaking 
around by myself!
> 
>Sleazeweazel
>
>

Re: [Texascavers] Solo

[vivbone]

     My most memorable solo trip was probably the time I decided to go seek 
myself after my first painful nightmare enducing divorce. It must have been 
1993 or so. Summertime in central California. I don't remember everything I had 
in my backpack. But I felt it was suitable for my planned overnight dry camp in 
a fairly small horizontal cave I knew, which was a 3 hr drive and a fairly 
steep 1/2 hr/1 hr hike from home. I do remember that I had a bit too much Jack 
Daniels in that pack. I probably also had my walkman and some tapes.
     A Hershey's with Almonds was in there. That was what introduced me to the 
wonderful mouse friend I made that night. He woke me up with his munching by my 
head. When I shined my headlamp to see who could possibly be making that much 
noise, he just looked at me and kept on munching. He let me pet him while I let 
him selectively eat out the almonds. 
     I did a lot of staring deep into the dark that night. and listening to the 
very rare drip in an alcove. I didn't even start hitting the Jack until the 
next morning. Then I fell asleep in the sun at the entrance.
    I think the Indigo Girls put it well- "I woke up with a headache like my 
head against a board. Twice as cloudy as I'd been the night before, when I went 
in seeking clarity". It was a hot hike out in the middle of the afternoon. Whew.
     I don't remember telling anyone where I went. It was fine. It was a 
humbling, beautiful, learning experience. It was only disappointing in that I 
found neither going passage, nor the meaning of life. For that I had to go to 
Monte Python.

-Vivian Loftin





 From: "bmorgan...@aol.com" 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 6:43 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Solo
 


"So, how is solo caving different from solo trail running, solo hiking, or 
solo driving on rural roads."
 
It isn't. The truth is that one dark passage much resembles another and the 
additional impediment of ropes and such makes it more trouble than it is worth 
when the glorious outdoors beckons. There are dangers out there too, almost as 
many as in a cave. Just as many places to break your leg plus farmers with 
shotguns, none of which stops me from trespassing solo at every possible 
opportunity. There is absolutely no way anybody is going to find me if I'm out 
exploring previously unexplored jungle when I don't even know which way I going 
to go myself. I was reminded of that the time when I was alone in the trackless 
jungle of Belize some thirty miles from the nearest road when a travertine 
shelf broke causing me to fall into a pit. It was a scary moment but I climbed 
out with no difficulty. From this I concluded that I simply needed to be more 
careful. Ditto for the time on the same trip when I found myself eye to eye 
with 
a huge tommygoff.
 
Some people are goal oriented, on a given day they go to a specific place, 
tell people where they are going and when they are expected to return. That's 
not my style, I just like to explore whether above or below ground, and 
exploring means going where you have never been before. There is inherent 
danger 
in that, but I also find it to be safer in that going solo sharpens one's 
perception and causes one to move more slowly and carefully. Despite any such 
danger there is nothing on or under the earth that I like better than sneaking 
around by myself!
 
Sleazeweazel

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[vivbone]

Like George, I'll defer to Crash and other biologists. But it seems to me the 
hipster Congress Street Bridge bats always take off down river (actually Lady 
Bird Lake at this point)  and follow the very wide river out of town as they 
rise higher. They don't seem to fly right over the hotels and condos they live 
near at all. It looks like the Bracken Bats will be forced to fly directly over 
the proposed new development based on the BCI graphic. Hard to say, though. The 
graphic is not to scale. I don't know if the bats will have another viable 
flight path choice.
 -Viv Loftin

--- On Wed, 5/22/13, George Veni  wrote:

From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave
To: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" , "Texas Cavers" 
, "New Mexico Cavers"
 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 2:31 PM



 
 




Mark, 
   
That’s a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I’ll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist.
 However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region’s
 primary water supply as well as having a much greater risk of degrading the 
quality of the water. While bats are getting the emphasis, this type of 
development is also bad for people who rely on the Edwards. 
   
George 
   

 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 

   


From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM

To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
Thanks for the interesting post, George. 
   
I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here: 
   
   
What’s the difference between houses “800 to 900” yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin? 
   
The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read “high rises”) are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards. 
   
   
   
Just playing dumb here, so please don’t advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano! 
   
   
Inquiring minds just want to know. 
   
   
Your thoughts? 
   
   
   
(I’m ducking under a table now) 
 
   
Mark Alman (not Minton)   
J 
   
   
   
   
   
   


From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM

To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html 
   
For more information and to learn how to help, go to

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect.
 
   
San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in one 
week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that your
 letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if received 
before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and their staff have 
time to read or at least review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your 
physical presence
 at the council meeting is also important. 
   
Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested. 
   
George 
   
 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 
   

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[vivbone]

Like George, I'll defer to Crash and other biologists. But it seems to me the 
hipster Congress Street Bridge bats always take off down river (actually Lady 
Bird Lake at this point)  and follow the very wide river out of town as they 
rise higher. They don't seem to fly right over the hotels and condos they live 
near at all. It looks like the Bracken Bats will be forced to fly directly over 
the proposed new development based on the BCI graphic. Hard to say, though. The 
graphic is not to scale. I don't know if the bats will have another viable 
flight path choice.
 -Viv Loftin

--- On Wed, 5/22/13, George Veni  wrote:

From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave
To: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" , "Texas Cavers" 
, "New Mexico Cavers"
 
Date: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 2:31 PM



 
 




Mark, 
   
That’s a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I’ll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist.
 However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region’s
 primary water supply as well as having a much greater risk of degrading the 
quality of the water. While bats are getting the emphasis, this type of 
development is also bad for people who rely on the Edwards. 
   
George 
   

 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 

   


From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM

To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
Thanks for the interesting post, George. 
   
I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here: 
   
   
What’s the difference between houses “800 to 900” yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin? 
   
The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read “high rises”) are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards. 
   
   
   
Just playing dumb here, so please don’t advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano! 
   
   
Inquiring minds just want to know. 
   
   
Your thoughts? 
   
   
   
(I’m ducking under a table now) 
 
   
Mark Alman (not Minton)   
J 
   
   
   
   
   
   


From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM

To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html 
   
For more information and to learn how to help, go to

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect.
 
   
San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in one 
week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that your
 letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if received 
before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and their staff have 
time to read or at least review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your 
physical presence
 at the council meeting is also important. 
   
Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested. 
   
George 
   
 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 
   

RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave

[vivbone]

Like George, I'll defer to Crash and other biologists. But it seems to me the 
hipster Congress Street Bridge bats always take off down river (actually Lady 
Bird Lake at this point)  and follow the very wide river out of town as they 
rise higher. They don't seem to fly right over the hotels and condos they live 
near at all. It looks like the Bracken Bats will be forced to fly directly over 
the proposed new development based on the BCI graphic. Hard to say, though. The 
graphic is not to scale. I don't know if the bats will have another viable 
flight path choice.
 -Viv Loftin

--- On Wed, 5/22/13, George Veni  wrote:

From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave
To: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" , "Texas Cavers" 
, "New Mexico Cavers"
 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Wednesday, May 22, 2013, 2:31 PM



 
 




Mark, 
   
That’s a good and fair question. It also ties more into biology so I’ll defer 
to Jim Kennedy to answer more authoritatively than I can as a hydrogeologist.
 However, in the comments I sent to the San Antonio City Council I pointed out 
that the high-density development is also over the Edwards Aquifer Recharge 
Zone. Such developments have been demonstrated to diminish the volume of water 
replenishing the region’s
 primary water supply as well as having a much greater risk of degrading the 
quality of the water. While bats are getting the emphasis, this type of 
development is also bad for people who rely on the Edwards. 
   
George 
   

 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 

   


From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:15 PM

To: George Veni; Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
Thanks for the interesting post, George. 
   
I do have one question, though, and I am NOT picking sides here: 
   
   
What’s the difference between houses “800 to 900” yards away from the Bracken 
Cave entrance and bats living under the Congress Street Bridge in Austin, smack 
dab in the middle of downtown Austin? 
   
The Austin colony seems to be functioning fine and thriving, may I say, 
growing? And the buildings (read “high rises”) are much closer than 800 to 900 
yards. 
   
   
   
Just playing dumb here, so please don’t advocate having me drawn and quartered 
and left in a pile of guano! 
   
   
Inquiring minds just want to know. 
   
   
Your thoughts? 
   
   
   
(I’m ducking under a table now) 
 
   
Mark Alman (not Minton)   
J 
   
   
   
   
   
   


From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@nckri.org]


Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:09 PM

To: Texas Cavers; New Mexico Cavers

Subject: [Texascavers] News report on threat to Bracken Bat Cave 


   
http://www.kens5.com/news/Bracken-Bat-Cave-vs-Crescent-Hills--208381441.html 
   
For more information and to learn how to help, go to

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/latest-news/714-save-bracken-cave-reserve.html?utm_campaign=education&utm_source=external&utm_medium=redirect.
 
   
San Antonio City Council will meet to discuss and decide on this issue in one 
week. Sign the on-line petition but if you have time, remember that your
 letters and e-mails will have much greater impact, especially if received 
before the meeting on the 29th so the mayor, councilors, and their staff have 
time to read or at least review them. If you live in the San Antonio, your 
physical presence
 at the council meeting is also important. 
   
Please share this message with anyone you think may be interested. 
   
George 
   
 
George Veni, Ph.D. 
Executive Director 
National Cave and Karst Research Institute 
400-1 Cascades Avenue 
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA 
Office: 575-887-5517 
Mobile: 210-863-5919 
Fax: 575-887-5523 
gv...@nckri.org 
www.nckri.org 
   

Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report

[vivbone]

a cubic foot of Texas Limestone weighs about 163-171 lbs.

That is the figure from which I derived the 5 gal weight of 114 lbs. 1 cu ft = 
7.48 gals.

The chert nodules contained within our limestone seem to be heavier.

--- On Tue, 2/26/13, Preston Forsythe  wrote:

> From: Preston Forsythe 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report
> To: "McNatt, Logan" , "Mimi Jasek" 
> , vivb...@att.net
> Cc: "Cavers Texas" 
> Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 9:28 AM
> I think a cubic foot of rock is
> around 280 lbs. That's conglomerate, NY state, so TX
> limestone, (what is it called, calitchie, [sic] ), may be a
> few lbs. lighter. We routinely move 300 to 1000 lb rocks
> with Grip Hoists at the Gunks on the Mohonk Preserve in NY
> while doing volunteer trail work below the cliffs.
> 
> The best way to move rock is to have a lot of helpers so get
> out there and join in the KIWI Sink Project.
> 
> 
> Preston in KY 
> 

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Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report

[vivbone]

a cubic foot of Texas Limestone weighs about 163-171 lbs.

That is the figure from which I derived the 5 gal weight of 114 lbs. 1 cu ft = 
7.48 gals.

The chert nodules contained within our limestone seem to be heavier.

--- On Tue, 2/26/13, Preston Forsythe  wrote:

> From: Preston Forsythe 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report
> To: "McNatt, Logan" , "Mimi Jasek" 
> , vivb...@att.net
> Cc: "Cavers Texas" 
> Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 9:28 AM
> I think a cubic foot of rock is
> around 280 lbs. That's conglomerate, NY state, so TX
> limestone, (what is it called, calitchie, [sic] ), may be a
> few lbs. lighter. We routinely move 300 to 1000 lb rocks
> with Grip Hoists at the Gunks on the Mohonk Preserve in NY
> while doing volunteer trail work below the cliffs.
> 
> The best way to move rock is to have a lot of helpers so get
> out there and join in the KIWI Sink Project.
> 
> 
> Preston in KY 
> 

-
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Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report

[vivbone]

a cubic foot of Texas Limestone weighs about 163-171 lbs.

That is the figure from which I derived the 5 gal weight of 114 lbs. 1 cu ft = 
7.48 gals.

The chert nodules contained within our limestone seem to be heavier.

--- On Tue, 2/26/13, Preston Forsythe  wrote:

> From: Preston Forsythe 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report
> To: "McNatt, Logan" , "Mimi Jasek" 
> , vivb...@att.net
> Cc: "Cavers Texas" 
> Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 9:28 AM
> I think a cubic foot of rock is
> around 280 lbs. That's conglomerate, NY state, so TX
> limestone, (what is it called, calitchie, [sic] ), may be a
> few lbs. lighter. We routinely move 300 to 1000 lb rocks
> with Grip Hoists at the Gunks on the Mohonk Preserve in NY
> while doing volunteer trail work below the cliffs.
> 
> The best way to move rock is to have a lot of helpers so get
> out there and join in the KIWI Sink Project.
> 
> 
> Preston in KY 
> 

-
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Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report

[vivbone]

grease and oil are relatively light.
5 gals of water would be closer to 42 lbs
5 gals of broken up limestone weighs about 60 lbs
5 gals of solid limestone would be more like 114 lbs.
Soil would be somewhere between water and gravel.

How do I know this?
Landscape Architecture is my trade. rocks and dirt are my game.
But I just googled the conversions.
-Viv
--- On Mon, 2/25/13, Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> From: Mimi Jasek 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report
> To: "lmcn...@austin.rr.com" 
> Cc: "Gill Edigar" , "Cavers Texas" 
> 
> Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 10:36 PM
> Logan,
> 
> Not too personal at all. What I've learned could prove
> useful to others.
> 
> The company I work for does 90-95% of their business selling
> all kinds of lubricants to industry, farmers, machinists,
> etc. So, by necessity, I've had to learn things that have
> actually carried over into normal life.
> 
> For caving and digging, knowing specs about barrels, kegs,
> and pails has proved quite helpful. 
> 
> Barrel = 11-5 gal pails = average 400#
>               5 gal pail
> = 35# of oil
>                
>               or gear
> lube
>               5 gal pail
> = 38# grease
> 
> Or, if totally full or half full, using 40# and 20# works as
> a good average overall. Easier head math!
> 
> So, with these facts, if dirt is dry and fluffy, oil weight
> could work. If wet with rocks, grease weight would be
> better. Keep track of pails, or barrels, and you get an idea
> of weight removed. If using 2 gal pails, again, keep track
> total pails, multiply by 2, divide by 5, then use 35 or 38
> to multiply to get approximate weight. (Or 40)
> 
> I have used this method - counter works well - on digs, and
> it gives you a real sense of accomplishment to figure how
> many tons you pull out each dig trip! 
> 
> So, that's how and why I know:)
> 
> Mimi
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Feb 25, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Logan McNatt 
> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Mimi,
> >    Terry wrote me that "we are well over 100
> dump truck loads at 7-8 tons each".  Wow!
> > 
> > Not intending to get too personal here, Mimi, but why
> do you know that "a normal barrel of grease weighs
> 400#"?  You can reply off-list if needed.
> > ;-)
> > Lowgun
> > 
> > 
> > On 2/25/2013 1:07 AM, Mimi Jasek wrote:
> > 
> > Logan,
> > A normal barrel of grease weighs 400#, and the often
> times wet dirt plus rocks that have been in most barrels
> that have been hauled out when we helped dig weighed that or
> more.
> > 
> > I think the first one we helped with saw either 10 or
> 14 barrels come out. So at a minimum of 400#, that dig alone
> netted more than 2 tons! I truly think Gill probably gets
> around a ton or more for each 5 barrels, not counting the
> huge rocks brought out singly. Truly an awesome
> project!  Mimi Jasek
> >
> 
> > Gill replied:  We were estimating 300 to 600
> pounds. But Terry has an in-line
> > scale we could hang up to measure them. Will try to
> remember to haul it
> > over and weigh a half dozen of so of
> them.   --Ediger
> > 
> >
> 
> > On Feb 24, 2013, at 9:10 PM, Logan McNatt 
> wrote:
> > Gill, Thanks for the report.  Can you estimate an
> average weight for each barrel of fill hauled out? 
> Just wondering if y'all have an idea of the approximate
> tonnage (fill and rocks) that you have removed since the dig
> began?
> > Logan
> >
> -
> > On 2/24/2013 9:01 PM, Gill Edigar wrote: KIWI SINK Dig
> Report--Sunday 24 February 2013--Andrew and I arrived at
> > a quarter o'ten and got a status report on Kiwi's
> garden plot. Then we
> > attacked the pit. Our immediate objective was to reduce
> everything
> > above floor level to about that level before we try to
> break into the
> > new underfloor passage opened up by Erin a couple of
> weeks ago. That
> > is to be done so that the many yards of loose fill
> don't fall into the
> > new lead whilst we're removing them. Currently we have
> the lead
> > protected with plywood to minimizing infilling from the
> higher areas
> > adjacent to the floor lead. Today we filled up 6-1/2
> barrels and
> > hauled out 6 of um. Then hoisted 3 or 4 lifts of rocks,
> some in
> > tandem, before we had a mechanical malfunction with the
> jin-poles on
> > the rear of the truck. 2 or 3 rocks remain to be
> raised. Many suitcase
> > sized rocks were excavated, loosened, and prepared for
> removal. Most
> > made the transition to the surface; a few are still
> awaiting another
> > session or two of backfill removal that will be needed
> before we can
> > open up Erin's floor lead to see where it goes. A
> rather large
> > contingent of cavers showed up today, many without
> caving gear. The
> > list of diggers:
> > 

Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report

[vivbone]

grease and oil are relatively light.
5 gals of water would be closer to 42 lbs
5 gals of broken up limestone weighs about 60 lbs
5 gals of solid limestone would be more like 114 lbs.
Soil would be somewhere between water and gravel.

How do I know this?
Landscape Architecture is my trade. rocks and dirt are my game.
But I just googled the conversions.
-Viv
--- On Mon, 2/25/13, Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> From: Mimi Jasek 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report
> To: "lmcn...@austin.rr.com" 
> Cc: "Gill Edigar" , "Cavers Texas" 
> 
> Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 10:36 PM
> Logan,
> 
> Not too personal at all. What I've learned could prove
> useful to others.
> 
> The company I work for does 90-95% of their business selling
> all kinds of lubricants to industry, farmers, machinists,
> etc. So, by necessity, I've had to learn things that have
> actually carried over into normal life.
> 
> For caving and digging, knowing specs about barrels, kegs,
> and pails has proved quite helpful. 
> 
> Barrel = 11-5 gal pails = average 400#
>               5 gal pail
> = 35# of oil
>                
>               or gear
> lube
>               5 gal pail
> = 38# grease
> 
> Or, if totally full or half full, using 40# and 20# works as
> a good average overall. Easier head math!
> 
> So, with these facts, if dirt is dry and fluffy, oil weight
> could work. If wet with rocks, grease weight would be
> better. Keep track of pails, or barrels, and you get an idea
> of weight removed. If using 2 gal pails, again, keep track
> total pails, multiply by 2, divide by 5, then use 35 or 38
> to multiply to get approximate weight. (Or 40)
> 
> I have used this method - counter works well - on digs, and
> it gives you a real sense of accomplishment to figure how
> many tons you pull out each dig trip! 
> 
> So, that's how and why I know:)
> 
> Mimi
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Feb 25, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Logan McNatt 
> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Mimi,
> >    Terry wrote me that "we are well over 100
> dump truck loads at 7-8 tons each".  Wow!
> > 
> > Not intending to get too personal here, Mimi, but why
> do you know that "a normal barrel of grease weighs
> 400#"?  You can reply off-list if needed.
> > ;-)
> > Lowgun
> > 
> > 
> > On 2/25/2013 1:07 AM, Mimi Jasek wrote:
> > 
> > Logan,
> > A normal barrel of grease weighs 400#, and the often
> times wet dirt plus rocks that have been in most barrels
> that have been hauled out when we helped dig weighed that or
> more.
> > 
> > I think the first one we helped with saw either 10 or
> 14 barrels come out. So at a minimum of 400#, that dig alone
> netted more than 2 tons! I truly think Gill probably gets
> around a ton or more for each 5 barrels, not counting the
> huge rocks brought out singly. Truly an awesome
> project!  Mimi Jasek
> >
> 
> > Gill replied:  We were estimating 300 to 600
> pounds. But Terry has an in-line
> > scale we could hang up to measure them. Will try to
> remember to haul it
> > over and weigh a half dozen of so of
> them.   --Ediger
> > 
> >
> 
> > On Feb 24, 2013, at 9:10 PM, Logan McNatt 
> wrote:
> > Gill, Thanks for the report.  Can you estimate an
> average weight for each barrel of fill hauled out? 
> Just wondering if y'all have an idea of the approximate
> tonnage (fill and rocks) that you have removed since the dig
> began?
> > Logan
> >
> -
> > On 2/24/2013 9:01 PM, Gill Edigar wrote: KIWI SINK Dig
> Report--Sunday 24 February 2013--Andrew and I arrived at
> > a quarter o'ten and got a status report on Kiwi's
> garden plot. Then we
> > attacked the pit. Our immediate objective was to reduce
> everything
> > above floor level to about that level before we try to
> break into the
> > new underfloor passage opened up by Erin a couple of
> weeks ago. That
> > is to be done so that the many yards of loose fill
> don't fall into the
> > new lead whilst we're removing them. Currently we have
> the lead
> > protected with plywood to minimizing infilling from the
> higher areas
> > adjacent to the floor lead. Today we filled up 6-1/2
> barrels and
> > hauled out 6 of um. Then hoisted 3 or 4 lifts of rocks,
> some in
> > tandem, before we had a mechanical malfunction with the
> jin-poles on
> > the rear of the truck. 2 or 3 rocks remain to be
> raised. Many suitcase
> > sized rocks were excavated, loosened, and prepared for
> removal. Most
> > made the transition to the surface; a few are still
> awaiting another
> > session or two of backfill removal that will be needed
> before we can
> > open up Erin's floor lead to see where it goes. A
> rather large
> > contingent of cavers showed up today, many without
> caving gear. The
> > list of diggers:
> > 

Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report

[vivbone]

grease and oil are relatively light.
5 gals of water would be closer to 42 lbs
5 gals of broken up limestone weighs about 60 lbs
5 gals of solid limestone would be more like 114 lbs.
Soil would be somewhere between water and gravel.

How do I know this?
Landscape Architecture is my trade. rocks and dirt are my game.
But I just googled the conversions.
-Viv
--- On Mon, 2/25/13, Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> From: Mimi Jasek 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] KIWI SINK Report
> To: "lmcn...@austin.rr.com" 
> Cc: "Gill Edigar" , "Cavers Texas" 
> 
> Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 10:36 PM
> Logan,
> 
> Not too personal at all. What I've learned could prove
> useful to others.
> 
> The company I work for does 90-95% of their business selling
> all kinds of lubricants to industry, farmers, machinists,
> etc. So, by necessity, I've had to learn things that have
> actually carried over into normal life.
> 
> For caving and digging, knowing specs about barrels, kegs,
> and pails has proved quite helpful. 
> 
> Barrel = 11-5 gal pails = average 400#
>               5 gal pail
> = 35# of oil
>                
>               or gear
> lube
>               5 gal pail
> = 38# grease
> 
> Or, if totally full or half full, using 40# and 20# works as
> a good average overall. Easier head math!
> 
> So, with these facts, if dirt is dry and fluffy, oil weight
> could work. If wet with rocks, grease weight would be
> better. Keep track of pails, or barrels, and you get an idea
> of weight removed. If using 2 gal pails, again, keep track
> total pails, multiply by 2, divide by 5, then use 35 or 38
> to multiply to get approximate weight. (Or 40)
> 
> I have used this method - counter works well - on digs, and
> it gives you a real sense of accomplishment to figure how
> many tons you pull out each dig trip! 
> 
> So, that's how and why I know:)
> 
> Mimi
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Feb 25, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Logan McNatt 
> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Mimi,
> >    Terry wrote me that "we are well over 100
> dump truck loads at 7-8 tons each".  Wow!
> > 
> > Not intending to get too personal here, Mimi, but why
> do you know that "a normal barrel of grease weighs
> 400#"?  You can reply off-list if needed.
> > ;-)
> > Lowgun
> > 
> > 
> > On 2/25/2013 1:07 AM, Mimi Jasek wrote:
> > 
> > Logan,
> > A normal barrel of grease weighs 400#, and the often
> times wet dirt plus rocks that have been in most barrels
> that have been hauled out when we helped dig weighed that or
> more.
> > 
> > I think the first one we helped with saw either 10 or
> 14 barrels come out. So at a minimum of 400#, that dig alone
> netted more than 2 tons! I truly think Gill probably gets
> around a ton or more for each 5 barrels, not counting the
> huge rocks brought out singly. Truly an awesome
> project!  Mimi Jasek
> >
> 
> > Gill replied:  We were estimating 300 to 600
> pounds. But Terry has an in-line
> > scale we could hang up to measure them. Will try to
> remember to haul it
> > over and weigh a half dozen of so of
> them.   --Ediger
> > 
> >
> 
> > On Feb 24, 2013, at 9:10 PM, Logan McNatt 
> wrote:
> > Gill, Thanks for the report.  Can you estimate an
> average weight for each barrel of fill hauled out? 
> Just wondering if y'all have an idea of the approximate
> tonnage (fill and rocks) that you have removed since the dig
> began?
> > Logan
> >
> -
> > On 2/24/2013 9:01 PM, Gill Edigar wrote: KIWI SINK Dig
> Report--Sunday 24 February 2013--Andrew and I arrived at
> > a quarter o'ten and got a status report on Kiwi's
> garden plot. Then we
> > attacked the pit. Our immediate objective was to reduce
> everything
> > above floor level to about that level before we try to
> break into the
> > new underfloor passage opened up by Erin a couple of
> weeks ago. That
> > is to be done so that the many yards of loose fill
> don't fall into the
> > new lead whilst we're removing them. Currently we have
> the lead
> > protected with plywood to minimizing infilling from the
> higher areas
> > adjacent to the floor lead. Today we filled up 6-1/2
> barrels and
> > hauled out 6 of um. Then hoisted 3 or 4 lifts of rocks,
> some in
> > tandem, before we had a mechanical malfunction with the
> jin-poles on
> > the rear of the truck. 2 or 3 rocks remain to be
> raised. Many suitcase
> > sized rocks were excavated, loosened, and prepared for
> removal. Most
> > made the transition to the surface; a few are still
> awaiting another
> > session or two of backfill removal that will be needed
> before we can
> > open up Erin's floor lead to see where it goes. A
> rather large
> > contingent of cavers showed up today, many without
> caving gear. The
> > list of diggers:
> > 

[Texascavers] Cavetex hello!

[vivbone]

check this out http://bit.ly/TcYEy6

[Texascavers] Cavetex hello!

[vivbone]

check this out http://bit.ly/TcYEy6

[Texascavers] Cavetex hello!

[vivbone]

check this out http://bit.ly/TcYEy6

[Texascavers] Wake: Call for musicians

[vivbone]

Alright, all you musically inclined friends, cavers and associates of Nathan 
out there-  Nathan needs a good lively New Orleans style 2nd line parade at his 
wake. Whose in? No experience necessary. I can have several shakers, 
tambourines, kazoos and what not on hand for those who don't have a trumpet on 
hand, but would like to participate.  
Contact me off list if you can join the tribute. We'll have a rehearsal next 
Wednesday Nov 12, which is an off-grotto Wednesday for UT cavers.
-Vivian Loftin

--- On Mon, 12/3/12, Denise P  wrote:

From: Denise P 
Subject: [Texascavers] Wake
To: "TexasCavers" 
Date: Monday, December 3, 2012, 9:45 PM





Hello-There is a wake for Nathan Parker planned for December 15. It's at 6pm at 
2100 Metcalfe Road in south Austin. Please pass the invite on to everyone. Hope 
to see you there.

 

-Denise
  

[Texascavers] Wake: Call for musicians

[vivbone]

Alright, all you musically inclined friends, cavers and associates of Nathan 
out there-  Nathan needs a good lively New Orleans style 2nd line parade at his 
wake. Whose in? No experience necessary. I can have several shakers, 
tambourines, kazoos and what not on hand for those who don't have a trumpet on 
hand, but would like to participate.  
Contact me off list if you can join the tribute. We'll have a rehearsal next 
Wednesday Nov 12, which is an off-grotto Wednesday for UT cavers.
-Vivian Loftin

--- On Mon, 12/3/12, Denise P  wrote:

From: Denise P 
Subject: [Texascavers] Wake
To: "TexasCavers" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, December 3, 2012, 9:45 PM





Hello-There is a wake for Nathan Parker planned for December 15. It's at 6pm at 
2100 Metcalfe Road in south Austin. Please pass the invite on to everyone. Hope 
to see you there.

 

-Denise
  

[Texascavers] Wake: Call for musicians

[vivbone]

Alright, all you musically inclined friends, cavers and associates of Nathan 
out there-  Nathan needs a good lively New Orleans style 2nd line parade at his 
wake. Whose in? No experience necessary. I can have several shakers, 
tambourines, kazoos and what not on hand for those who don't have a trumpet on 
hand, but would like to participate.  
Contact me off list if you can join the tribute. We'll have a rehearsal next 
Wednesday Nov 12, which is an off-grotto Wednesday for UT cavers.
-Vivian Loftin

--- On Mon, 12/3/12, Denise P  wrote:

From: Denise P 
Subject: [Texascavers] Wake
To: "TexasCavers" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, December 3, 2012, 9:45 PM





Hello-There is a wake for Nathan Parker planned for December 15. It's at 6pm at 
2100 Metcalfe Road in south Austin. Please pass the invite on to everyone. Hope 
to see you there.

 

-Denise
  

[Texascavers] very sad news

[vivbone]

Many of you already know, but I haven't seen an announcement here on 
texascavers yet.   

 Tragically, we lost one of our own unexpectedly and suddenly this week. Caver, 
Nathan Parker passed away of a heart attack. He was just a fine human being and 
will be greatly missed. I'm sure I'm not the only one at the UT Grotto meeting 
last night who kept glimpsing him out of the corner of my eye, or hearing his 
voice nearby at the Posse. 

 Here is the relevant information:
Services for Nathan Parker, PhD, will be held Saturday, November 10th at 
Weed-Corley-Fish, located at 2620 South Congress Avenue.

Family will be receiving friends beginning at 10:00 am; service to begin at 
11:00.

A private grave-side burial and luncheon will follow. In lieu of flowers, 
please make donations in Nathan's name to one of the following charities: Texas 
Cave Management Association, (see below) or to the Boy Scouts of America 
Capital Area Council (www.bsacac.org).

Please visit Nathan's Facebook page or the online guestbook at 
http://www.wcfish.com/ to leave messages for Nathan's family.

Donations to the Texas Cave Management Association (TCMA) should use the 
following steps:

1. Go to this website: http://www.tcmacaves.org/financial/

2. In the “Donate To” space, pull down “other” from the menu. This alerts TCMA 
that the donation is for a special honor.

3. Fill out the remainder of the donation information.

4. *Important final step* is to email ronra...@tcmacaves.org with the 
information that this donation is in honor of Nathan Parker.

-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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[Texascavers] very sad news

[vivbone]

Many of you already know, but I haven't seen an announcement here on 
texascavers yet.   

 Tragically, we lost one of our own unexpectedly and suddenly this week. Caver, 
Nathan Parker passed away of a heart attack. He was just a fine human being and 
will be greatly missed. I'm sure I'm not the only one at the UT Grotto meeting 
last night who kept glimpsing him out of the corner of my eye, or hearing his 
voice nearby at the Posse. 

 Here is the relevant information:
Services for Nathan Parker, PhD, will be held Saturday, November 10th at 
Weed-Corley-Fish, located at 2620 South Congress Avenue.

Family will be receiving friends beginning at 10:00 am; service to begin at 
11:00.

A private grave-side burial and luncheon will follow. In lieu of flowers, 
please make donations in Nathan's name to one of the following charities: Texas 
Cave Management Association, (see below) or to the Boy Scouts of America 
Capital Area Council (www.bsacac.org).

Please visit Nathan's Facebook page or the online guestbook at 
http://www.wcfish.com/ to leave messages for Nathan's family.

Donations to the Texas Cave Management Association (TCMA) should use the 
following steps:

1. Go to this website: http://www.tcmacaves.org/financial/

2. In the “Donate To” space, pull down “other” from the menu. This alerts TCMA 
that the donation is for a special honor.

3. Fill out the remainder of the donation information.

4. *Important final step* is to email ronra...@tcmacaves.org with the 
information that this donation is in honor of Nathan Parker.

-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

[Texascavers] very sad news

[vivbone]

Many of you already know, but I haven't seen an announcement here on 
texascavers yet.   

 Tragically, we lost one of our own unexpectedly and suddenly this week. Caver, 
Nathan Parker passed away of a heart attack. He was just a fine human being and 
will be greatly missed. I'm sure I'm not the only one at the UT Grotto meeting 
last night who kept glimpsing him out of the corner of my eye, or hearing his 
voice nearby at the Posse. 

 Here is the relevant information:
Services for Nathan Parker, PhD, will be held Saturday, November 10th at 
Weed-Corley-Fish, located at 2620 South Congress Avenue.

Family will be receiving friends beginning at 10:00 am; service to begin at 
11:00.

A private grave-side burial and luncheon will follow. In lieu of flowers, 
please make donations in Nathan's name to one of the following charities: Texas 
Cave Management Association, (see below) or to the Boy Scouts of America 
Capital Area Council (www.bsacac.org).

Please visit Nathan's Facebook page or the online guestbook at 
http://www.wcfish.com/ to leave messages for Nathan's family.

Donations to the Texas Cave Management Association (TCMA) should use the 
following steps:

1. Go to this website: http://www.tcmacaves.org/financial/

2. In the “Donate To” space, pull down “other” from the menu. This alerts TCMA 
that the donation is for a special honor.

3. Fill out the remainder of the donation information.

4. *Important final step* is to email ronra...@tcmacaves.org with the 
information that this donation is in honor of Nathan Parker.

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[Texascavers] Caving over Labor Day

[vivbone]

Who's got a good cave trip planned for this weekend? Unexpectedly, I have the 3 
day weekend off. I need to go caving. 
-Vivian Loftin

[Texascavers] Caving over Labor Day

[vivbone]

Who's got a good cave trip planned for this weekend? Unexpectedly, I have the 3 
day weekend off. I need to go caving. 
-Vivian Loftin

[Texascavers] Caving over Labor Day

[vivbone]

Who's got a good cave trip planned for this weekend? Unexpectedly, I have the 3 
day weekend off. I need to go caving. 
-Vivian Loftin

Re: [Texascavers] Kiwi Sink vs Sunday Swim

[vivbone]

I think it is ridiculous to think Kiwi Sink is a conflict with Sunday Swin- 
Just my 2 cents.

--- On Wed, 8/8/12, pstrickla...@austin.rr.com  
wrote:

> From: pstrickla...@austin.rr.com 
> Subject: [Texascavers] Kiwi Sink vs Sunday Swim
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 10:25 PM
>     There is no official
> Kiwi Sink dig on August 26th. There is one August 19th,
> & one September 9th. (Check the calendar at utgrotto.org
> ). That means I MIGHT have a Swim on the 26th without
> conflicting.
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 
>

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Re: [Texascavers] Kiwi Sink vs Sunday Swim

[vivbone]

I think it is ridiculous to think Kiwi Sink is a conflict with Sunday Swin- 
Just my 2 cents.

--- On Wed, 8/8/12, pstrickla...@austin.rr.com  
wrote:

> From: pstrickla...@austin.rr.com 
> Subject: [Texascavers] Kiwi Sink vs Sunday Swim
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 10:25 PM
>     There is no official
> Kiwi Sink dig on August 26th. There is one August 19th,
> & one September 9th. (Check the calendar at utgrotto.org
> ). That means I MIGHT have a Swim on the 26th without
> conflicting.
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 
>

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Re: [Texascavers] Kiwi Sink vs Sunday Swim

[vivbone]

I think it is ridiculous to think Kiwi Sink is a conflict with Sunday Swin- 
Just my 2 cents.

--- On Wed, 8/8/12, pstrickla...@austin.rr.com  
wrote:

> From: pstrickla...@austin.rr.com 
> Subject: [Texascavers] Kiwi Sink vs Sunday Swim
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 10:25 PM
>     There is no official
> Kiwi Sink dig on August 26th. There is one August 19th,
> & one September 9th. (Check the calendar at utgrotto.org
> ). That means I MIGHT have a Swim on the 26th without
> conflicting.
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 
>

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Re: [Texascavers] Help - speed, tire size change

[vivbone]

Another reason you're mileage will drop is that the increased tire diameter 
will raise you slightly higher relative to the ground, which will increase your 
wind resistance. Wind resistance is the main reason mileage drops so fast at 
higher speeds too.
-Vivian Loftin


--- On Wed, 8/1/12, Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> From: Mimi Jasek 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Help - speed, tire size change
> To: "Diana Tomchick" 
> Cc: "TexasCavers" 
> Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2012, 12:01 AM
> Ok, Diana, Nico, and Karl, thanks so
> much. A lot of what you all said was close to some of what I
> thought, but you defined it for me.
> 
> I will use your info to try to solve our problem, and for
> now just slow down. 
> 
> Lost 5+ mpg, which to me is a lot, for the cookie jar has no
> funds for stock.
> 
> If others reply to help, it will be tomorrow before I get
> back to mail. Last load of laundry calls to be put away,
> then this tired lady must go to sleep before another work
> day starts:)
> 
> Mimi
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:42 PM, Diana Tomchick 
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Mimi,
> > 
> > A simple back-of-the-envelope calculation would be to
> divide the current tire circumference by the previous tire
> circumference. This would give you an estimate of the
> fractional difference the new, larger tire would travel for
> each revolution of the tire. Using the numbers you supplied
> gives a value of approximately 1.071. If you are used to
> driving at 60 m.p.h., in theory the new tires would 
> actually be taking you at 60 x 1.071 = 64.26 m.p.h.
> > 
> > Of course this is a pretty simplistic estimate.
> > 
> > If you want to maximize your gas mileage, that's a more
> complicated experiment that would need you to fill your gas
> tank (be sure to always use the same type of gas--the higher
> the percentage of ethanol, the lower your mile per gallon),
> drive a set distance at different speeds and re-fill the
> tank to see how much you used. Oh, and be sure that the
> prevailing wind speed and direction is the same every time
> you repeat the drive at the different speeds.
> > 
> > 
> > Diana
> > 
> >
> 
> > Diana R. Tomchick
> > Professor
> > Dept. of Biochemistry
> > University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> > 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> > Dallas, TX 75390-8816
> > (214) 645-6383 (office)
> > (214) 418-5827 (cell)
> > diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> > 
> > On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:09 PM, "Mimi Jasek" 
> wrote:
> > 
> >> Ok, I need help. I have a Ford Escape that we use
> as our main caving vehicle due to great gas mileage. Due to
> age, miles, and need for stronger sidewalls and better
> traction, we traded our old tires for new. Love them, but
> because bigger, noticed huge drop in gas mileage at same
> speeds used to traveling, and I seem to be staying up with
> or passing everyone!!
> >> 
> >> Old = P235/70R16 normal street tires
> >> 
> >> New = LT245/75R16 E Toyo OPAT OWL 120Q
> >> 
> >> Don't want a speeding ticket, and need my good mpg
> back, or close to it. Can anyone tell me how much to
> decrease my speed, and if the reduction is the same for all
> speeds? If not the same, how much decrease at what
> increments?
> >> 
> >> I believe my old tires were 28" diameter (spare is
> that) with 7.33' circumference, and new are 30" with 7.85'
> circumference.
> >> 
> >> I have to believe there are more than enough math
> wiz/ tire savvy folks out there to get me some answers, but
> if I am asking the impossible, tell me. I do have a
> tachometer as well as a speedometer if that helps.
> >> 
> >> For us, mpg means a lot due to cost of gas, and
> determines how many trips we make. I would really appreciate
> any help anyone can give me.
> >> 
> >> Thanks,
> >> 
> >> Mimi Jasek
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> -
> >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > UT Southwestern Medical Center
> > The future of medicine, today.
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 
>

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Re: [Texascavers] Help - speed, tire size change

[vivbone]

Another reason you're mileage will drop is that the increased tire diameter 
will raise you slightly higher relative to the ground, which will increase your 
wind resistance. Wind resistance is the main reason mileage drops so fast at 
higher speeds too.
-Vivian Loftin


--- On Wed, 8/1/12, Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> From: Mimi Jasek 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Help - speed, tire size change
> To: "Diana Tomchick" 
> Cc: "TexasCavers" 
> Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2012, 12:01 AM
> Ok, Diana, Nico, and Karl, thanks so
> much. A lot of what you all said was close to some of what I
> thought, but you defined it for me.
> 
> I will use your info to try to solve our problem, and for
> now just slow down. 
> 
> Lost 5+ mpg, which to me is a lot, for the cookie jar has no
> funds for stock.
> 
> If others reply to help, it will be tomorrow before I get
> back to mail. Last load of laundry calls to be put away,
> then this tired lady must go to sleep before another work
> day starts:)
> 
> Mimi
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:42 PM, Diana Tomchick 
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Mimi,
> > 
> > A simple back-of-the-envelope calculation would be to
> divide the current tire circumference by the previous tire
> circumference. This would give you an estimate of the
> fractional difference the new, larger tire would travel for
> each revolution of the tire. Using the numbers you supplied
> gives a value of approximately 1.071. If you are used to
> driving at 60 m.p.h., in theory the new tires would 
> actually be taking you at 60 x 1.071 = 64.26 m.p.h.
> > 
> > Of course this is a pretty simplistic estimate.
> > 
> > If you want to maximize your gas mileage, that's a more
> complicated experiment that would need you to fill your gas
> tank (be sure to always use the same type of gas--the higher
> the percentage of ethanol, the lower your mile per gallon),
> drive a set distance at different speeds and re-fill the
> tank to see how much you used. Oh, and be sure that the
> prevailing wind speed and direction is the same every time
> you repeat the drive at the different speeds.
> > 
> > 
> > Diana
> > 
> >
> 
> > Diana R. Tomchick
> > Professor
> > Dept. of Biochemistry
> > University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> > 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> > Dallas, TX 75390-8816
> > (214) 645-6383 (office)
> > (214) 418-5827 (cell)
> > diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> > 
> > On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:09 PM, "Mimi Jasek" 
> wrote:
> > 
> >> Ok, I need help. I have a Ford Escape that we use
> as our main caving vehicle due to great gas mileage. Due to
> age, miles, and need for stronger sidewalls and better
> traction, we traded our old tires for new. Love them, but
> because bigger, noticed huge drop in gas mileage at same
> speeds used to traveling, and I seem to be staying up with
> or passing everyone!!
> >> 
> >> Old = P235/70R16 normal street tires
> >> 
> >> New = LT245/75R16 E Toyo OPAT OWL 120Q
> >> 
> >> Don't want a speeding ticket, and need my good mpg
> back, or close to it. Can anyone tell me how much to
> decrease my speed, and if the reduction is the same for all
> speeds? If not the same, how much decrease at what
> increments?
> >> 
> >> I believe my old tires were 28" diameter (spare is
> that) with 7.33' circumference, and new are 30" with 7.85'
> circumference.
> >> 
> >> I have to believe there are more than enough math
> wiz/ tire savvy folks out there to get me some answers, but
> if I am asking the impossible, tell me. I do have a
> tachometer as well as a speedometer if that helps.
> >> 
> >> For us, mpg means a lot due to cost of gas, and
> determines how many trips we make. I would really appreciate
> any help anyone can give me.
> >> 
> >> Thanks,
> >> 
> >> Mimi Jasek
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> -
> >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > UT Southwestern Medical Center
> > The future of medicine, today.
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 
>

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Re: [Texascavers] Help - speed, tire size change

[vivbone]

Another reason you're mileage will drop is that the increased tire diameter 
will raise you slightly higher relative to the ground, which will increase your 
wind resistance. Wind resistance is the main reason mileage drops so fast at 
higher speeds too.
-Vivian Loftin


--- On Wed, 8/1/12, Mimi Jasek  wrote:

> From: Mimi Jasek 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Help - speed, tire size change
> To: "Diana Tomchick" 
> Cc: "TexasCavers" 
> Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2012, 12:01 AM
> Ok, Diana, Nico, and Karl, thanks so
> much. A lot of what you all said was close to some of what I
> thought, but you defined it for me.
> 
> I will use your info to try to solve our problem, and for
> now just slow down. 
> 
> Lost 5+ mpg, which to me is a lot, for the cookie jar has no
> funds for stock.
> 
> If others reply to help, it will be tomorrow before I get
> back to mail. Last load of laundry calls to be put away,
> then this tired lady must go to sleep before another work
> day starts:)
> 
> Mimi
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:42 PM, Diana Tomchick 
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Mimi,
> > 
> > A simple back-of-the-envelope calculation would be to
> divide the current tire circumference by the previous tire
> circumference. This would give you an estimate of the
> fractional difference the new, larger tire would travel for
> each revolution of the tire. Using the numbers you supplied
> gives a value of approximately 1.071. If you are used to
> driving at 60 m.p.h., in theory the new tires would 
> actually be taking you at 60 x 1.071 = 64.26 m.p.h.
> > 
> > Of course this is a pretty simplistic estimate.
> > 
> > If you want to maximize your gas mileage, that's a more
> complicated experiment that would need you to fill your gas
> tank (be sure to always use the same type of gas--the higher
> the percentage of ethanol, the lower your mile per gallon),
> drive a set distance at different speeds and re-fill the
> tank to see how much you used. Oh, and be sure that the
> prevailing wind speed and direction is the same every time
> you repeat the drive at the different speeds.
> > 
> > 
> > Diana
> > 
> >
> 
> > Diana R. Tomchick
> > Professor
> > Dept. of Biochemistry
> > University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> > 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> > Dallas, TX 75390-8816
> > (214) 645-6383 (office)
> > (214) 418-5827 (cell)
> > diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> > 
> > On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:09 PM, "Mimi Jasek" 
> wrote:
> > 
> >> Ok, I need help. I have a Ford Escape that we use
> as our main caving vehicle due to great gas mileage. Due to
> age, miles, and need for stronger sidewalls and better
> traction, we traded our old tires for new. Love them, but
> because bigger, noticed huge drop in gas mileage at same
> speeds used to traveling, and I seem to be staying up with
> or passing everyone!!
> >> 
> >> Old = P235/70R16 normal street tires
> >> 
> >> New = LT245/75R16 E Toyo OPAT OWL 120Q
> >> 
> >> Don't want a speeding ticket, and need my good mpg
> back, or close to it. Can anyone tell me how much to
> decrease my speed, and if the reduction is the same for all
> speeds? If not the same, how much decrease at what
> increments?
> >> 
> >> I believe my old tires were 28" diameter (spare is
> that) with 7.33' circumference, and new are 30" with 7.85'
> circumference.
> >> 
> >> I have to believe there are more than enough math
> wiz/ tire savvy folks out there to get me some answers, but
> if I am asking the impossible, tell me. I do have a
> tachometer as well as a speedometer if that helps.
> >> 
> >> For us, mpg means a lot due to cost of gas, and
> determines how many trips we make. I would really appreciate
> any help anyone can give me.
> >> 
> >> Thanks,
> >> 
> >> Mimi Jasek
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> -
> >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > UT Southwestern Medical Center
> > The future of medicine, today.
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 
>

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Re: [Texascavers] Northern Region Cave Closures

[vivbone]

There is a loophole:
"Under the government plan, which still must be approved by the regional 
head of the Forest Service and could go into effect as early as June, 
cavers and others could apply for a permit to explore caves if they 
agree to decontamination and other measures designed to protect bats."
(quote is from the article)

This would seem a lot less unsavory if the article was worded more like: 
Permits and Decontamination Procedures to be Required to Enter Caves on Forest 
Service Land

-Vivian

--- On Tue, 6/26/12, S S  wrote:

From: S S 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Northern Region Cave Closures
To: "Mark Minton" , texascavers@texascavers.com, 
s...@caver.net
Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 9:17 AM

That's because in the eyes of the center for biological diversity, we are the 
real disease.



-- Sent from my HP TouchPadOn May 24, 2012 3:02 PM, Mark Minton 
 wrote: 


Apparently
the northern region of the U. S. Forest service is considering a plan to
close all caves on Forest Service lands in the northern Rockies of
Montana and Idaho to protect against WNS, even before there is any
evidence that it is a threat there.  The plan could take effect this
summer.  Our nemesis the Center for Biological Diversity has a hand
in this.  Ex-Texas caver Mike McEachern is quoted in
the article. 
<
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-16/business/sns-rt-us-usa-bats-diseasebre84g05f-20120516_1_bat-disease-white-nose-syndrome-caves-and-mines
>


Mark


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net

Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org

Re: [Texascavers] Northern Region Cave Closures

[vivbone]

There is a loophole:
"Under the government plan, which still must be approved by the regional 
head of the Forest Service and could go into effect as early as June, 
cavers and others could apply for a permit to explore caves if they 
agree to decontamination and other measures designed to protect bats."
(quote is from the article)

This would seem a lot less unsavory if the article was worded more like: 
Permits and Decontamination Procedures to be Required to Enter Caves on Forest 
Service Land

-Vivian

--- On Tue, 6/26/12, S S  wrote:

From: S S 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Northern Region Cave Closures
To: "Mark Minton" , texascavers@texascavers.com, 
s...@caver.net
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 9:17 AM

That's because in the eyes of the center for biological diversity, we are the 
real disease.



-- Sent from my HP TouchPadOn May 24, 2012 3:02 PM, Mark Minton 
 wrote: 


Apparently
the northern region of the U. S. Forest service is considering a plan to
close all caves on Forest Service lands in the northern Rockies of
Montana and Idaho to protect against WNS, even before there is any
evidence that it is a threat there.  The plan could take effect this
summer.  Our nemesis the Center for Biological Diversity has a hand
in this.  Ex-Texas caver Mike McEachern is quoted in
the article. 
<
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-16/business/sns-rt-us-usa-bats-diseasebre84g05f-20120516_1_bat-disease-white-nose-syndrome-caves-and-mines
>


Mark


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net

Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org

Re: [Texascavers] Northern Region Cave Closures

[vivbone]

There is a loophole:
"Under the government plan, which still must be approved by the regional 
head of the Forest Service and could go into effect as early as June, 
cavers and others could apply for a permit to explore caves if they 
agree to decontamination and other measures designed to protect bats."
(quote is from the article)

This would seem a lot less unsavory if the article was worded more like: 
Permits and Decontamination Procedures to be Required to Enter Caves on Forest 
Service Land

-Vivian

--- On Tue, 6/26/12, S S  wrote:

From: S S 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Northern Region Cave Closures
To: "Mark Minton" , texascavers@texascavers.com, 
s...@caver.net
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 9:17 AM

That's because in the eyes of the center for biological diversity, we are the 
real disease.



-- Sent from my HP TouchPadOn May 24, 2012 3:02 PM, Mark Minton 
 wrote: 


Apparently
the northern region of the U. S. Forest service is considering a plan to
close all caves on Forest Service lands in the northern Rockies of
Montana and Idaho to protect against WNS, even before there is any
evidence that it is a threat there.  The plan could take effect this
summer.  Our nemesis the Center for Biological Diversity has a hand
in this.  Ex-Texas caver Mike McEachern is quoted in
the article. 
<
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-16/business/sns-rt-us-usa-bats-diseasebre84g05f-20120516_1_bat-disease-white-nose-syndrome-caves-and-mines
>


Mark


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net

Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org

[Texascavers] Truck for Sale

[vivbone]

Hey Ya'll,
My Amazing Truck is for sale. It's a 2003 3/4 ton Dodge 2500 quad-cab, long bed 
w/ bed liner and roof rack. Runs great, fancy paint job. Single owner, well 
maintained. I am religious about oil changes. My other car has 340,000 miles on 
it, and is going strong, for instance.
More info here:
http://austin.craigslist.org/cto/2208647143.html

This is a great truck for moving a lot of heavy stuff with 6 people comfortably 
in the cab. It is not a good off-road vehicle because of its super-long wheel 
base. So it's not really a caving vehicle, but a great work horse. You can put 
1.5 tons in the bed and pull 16 tons in a trailer and it doesn't even feel it.

This is caving related because I have to sell this truck by Next Wednesday or 
call of my planned trip to New Zealand leaving Feb. 22nd for an amazing caving 
expedition to the Fiordland. I'm letting her go cheap. I'm down to $7,000. Blue 
Book is $8,325.

So help me spread the word!!

Vivian Loftin (512)659-9486




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Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns sump dive report

[vivbone]

yeah, I'm interested. Not sure if I can squeeze in to Raccoon Ramada, but I'll 
find something to do. My shoulder is ready to try caving again.
-Vivian Loftin





From: Andy Zenker 
To: George Veni 
Cc: Charles Goldsmith ; Cavetex 
; Scott Kyle 
Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 7:17:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns sump dive report

Hi George,  
I'm interested in surveying Raccoon Ramada.  I'd also be happy to work on the 
Spider System.

Everyone else,
I'm sure I can borrow some survey gear, but I will need a couple of volunteers 
to help survey. If anyone is interested, let me know.  We'll get it done in 
January/February.
Also, I'll be bringing vertical gear so we can hopefully check out Cascade and 
Fisher sinks for fun next time.

Andy Z


On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 11:34 PM, George Veni  wrote:

My congratulations to James and the team which made this discovery possible. I 
dove the sump in 1982 and found it ended in mud fill at a depth of 5 m. It 
seems 
that floods since then washed out that plug. I admit to not having had much 
hope 
for the sump and am glad to be proven wrong!
> 
>As for Raccoon Ramada, it was discovered and explored by Randy Waters about 30 
>years. He never got around to surveying it. He did survey and draw a pencil 
>draft of the nearby Spider System. If anyone is interested in finalizing that 
>map let me know. It would be a simple matter to digitally trace his draft. 
>Unfortunately, Randy is no longer with us to complete the map himself.
> 
>George
> 
>From:Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] 
>Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 19:25
>To: Cavetex; Scott Kyle
>Subject: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns sump dive report
> 
>A big thanks to all of the help for the tank haul to the sump in Cascade 
>Caverns 
>on Saturday.  James Brown dove the sump, starting at 10:36am and resurfanced 
>approximately 40 minutes later.  James extended the cave by 366 feet until he 
>ran out of guideline.  Per his report, "Start of Sump dive is the smallest at 
>6 
>feet wide and 2 feet high.  Underwater passage after air bell averages 12 feet 
>wide and 6 feet high.   Maximum depth is 31 feet."
> 
>We'll be going back at the end of January or beginning of February to push 
>this 
>further.
> 
>Thanks go out to the following people:
>Tom Sims
>Gerry Geletzke
>David Serafine
>Layne Hedrick
>Ian Riddington
>Brandon Cook
>Andy Zenker
>Lyndon Tiu
>Peter Druschke
> 
>Gerry and Andy also explored Raccoon Ramada cave that is on the property, but 
>did not get a survey yet.  We'll be returning to do that as well.  The 
>entrance 
>to this is a very tight squeeze and I don't know anyone else that has squeezed 
>into it.  I'd be curious if there are any records of this.
> 
>Charles
> 

Re: [Texascavers] Princeton Tec

[vivbone]

just putting it in the mail has always worked for me. -Vivian





From: Nico Escamilla 
To: Mailing List 
Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 11:05:13 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Princeton Tec

Does anyone know if I need a return authorization number to send a light back 
to 
Princeton Tec for warranty, or do I just put it in the mail?

Nico

Re: [Texascavers] We are all just a bunch of wimps

[vivbone]

Fyi, he didn't actually free dive the full depth. the breath hold record is 
less than half the depth of this hole. it was filmed over a few days.  

this note, from the guy himself, accompanies the video:

"FREE FALL:  World champion freediver Guillaume Nery special dive at 
Dean's Blue Hole, the deepest blue hole in the world filmed entirely on 
breath hold by the french champion Julie Gautier. This video is a 
FICTION and an ARTISTIC PROJECT.  Edited by BLUENERY (c). Music: ARCHIVE - you 
make me feel."

Of course it is still very impressive.  David Locklear posted a link to this 
video a few days ago.





From: Don Cooper 
To: a...@gluesenkamp.com
Cc: texas cavers 
Sent: Tue, June 8, 2010 11:09:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] We are all just a bunch of wimps

Filmed by some guy with a rebreather!


On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Andy Gluesenkamp 
 wrote:

Tiny-lunged wimps.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQITWbAaDx0&feature=player_embedded
>
>Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
>700 Billie Brooks Drive
>>Driftwood, Texas 78619
>(512) 799-1095
>a...@gluesenkamp.com 

Re: [Texascavers] FW: Man vs. Wild: Man vs. Bats

[vivbone]

I found it on the Discovery Site just a few minutes ago. Yes, it was part of a 
China series.
I hate to give them traffic on their site. That's a win for them, but I had to 
see what I was complaining about.





From: Karen 
To: Geary Schindel 
Cc: Cavetex 
Sent: Fri, May 28, 2010 11:45:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] FW: Man vs. Wild: Man vs. Bats


The youtube video appears to have been removed.  
 
I read elsewhere this was filmed in China.  Not sure if that's accurate, but 
here's an interesting journal abstract: 
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?aid=5487824


On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Geary Schindel  
wrote:

Some states have laws that protect non-game animals from being killed.  It 
would be interesting to investigate the state this was filmed in and see if 
bats are protected and if so, whether he had the necessary permits to kill 
them.  Having him arrested for destruction of wildlife would be interesting.  
Maybe he could do a segment of Man verses Wild from a jail cell and then see 
who is the predator and who is the prey.
>
>G
> 
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Dave H. Crusoe [mailto:dhcru...@projectkir.org]
>Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:05 AM
>To: Charles Goldsmith; Cavetex
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] FW: Man vs. Wild: Man vs. Bats
>
>Charles,
>
>At your suggestion, I wrote the following to PETA's info line ( 
>http://www.peta.org/actioncenter/onlinecruelty.asp
>> ); not sure what they might do, but perhaps help mobilize the
>twitterati? (As I'm sure others have done, I've also fwd'd to the
>local grottos).
>
>
>Greetings,
>
>I'm writing to represent a growing outcry (see e-mail from Bat
>>Conservation International below) over the televised killing of Bats
>perpetrated by the star of Man vs. Wild, and available through YouTube
>(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYAoAdY6UMA).
>
>Please let us know if there is a way you might spread additional word
>over the outcry, beyond mobilizing our own communities (we cavers are
>a relatively small community, nationally, which the number of people
>>interested in this issue is likely to be much larger); our hope is to
>pressure the Discovery Channel to issue an apology and/or correction
>and, more importantly, not promote or depict similar obscene cruelty
>in the future.
>
>
>
>On May 28, 2010, at 11:50 AM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
>
>> Is there any type of legal aspect of this that could put pressure on
>> them?  Cruelty to animals comes to mind.  Also, anyone have a
>>> contact at PETA, as bad as I hate that organization for it's antics,
>> they have a large voice.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 8:53 AM,  wrote:
>>> Just watched the video.
>>
>>
>> You can supply your own adjective, but, IMHO "appalling",
>> "irresponsible", "reprehensible" are good starts.
>>
>> What is most disturbing is the unabashed glee this moron displays
>>> while using these bats for badminton practice.
>>
>> He doesn't even try to make it "acceptable" by eating what he kills.
>>
>>
>> I stopped watching this douche years ago and this confirms the fact
>>> that I will never watch him again.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
>>> Sent: Fri 5/28/2010 7:51 AM
>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> Subject: [Texascavers] FW: Man vs. Wild: Man vs. Bats
>>
>> Graham Schindel sent me this.
>>>
>>
>> Geary
>>
>>
>> Not sure if this has gone through Cave Tex but it should.
>>
>> Cavers,
>>
>> Here is a note sent out from BCI about a bat killing video. As if
>> WNS isn't enough...
>>>
>> -
>>
>> A recent episode of Discovery Channel's Man vs. Wild featured Bear
>> Grylls gleefully killing bats with a homemade club. The clip, which
>> shows Grylls throwing a flame in a cave to "smoke out" the bats,
>>> swatting them to the ground and then stomping on them, has aired
>> internationally and been posted on YouTube, allowing for continued
>> access.
>>
>> Though we understand the show is about survival, we feel that this
>>> clip perpetuates negative attitudes toward bats and could generate
>> senseless copycat activity and/or the type of vandalism that is
>> driving many bat species to the brink of extinction. Only four
>> months ago, a Kentucky man was sentenced to eight months in jail
>>> after pleading guilty to beating to death 105 endangered Indiana bats.
>>
>> Please express your disappointment at this anti-conservation message
>> by filling out the feedback form on Discovery Communications
>>> website. Let the Discovery executives know:
>>
>> *   This episode undermines decades of bat conservation efforts
>>
>> *   Bats are an important part of a healthy ecosystem. They eat
>> agricultural pests, disperse seeds to replenish the rainforest and
>>> pollinate a variety of plants. Many bats are endangered and the loss
>> of a single species can have ramifications throughout the ecosystem.
>>
>> *   Viewers sh

Re: [Texascavers] Re: Global Mapper

[vivbone]

 this gets weirder and weirder. 
When I click Mark's globalmapper link it takes me to this security web site: 
http://sec-center.com/

 When I type in the address by hand I get the same thing.
-Vivian
 -- Original message from Mark Minton : 
--


>  Pete Lindsley said:
> 
>  >The Global Mapper link in Mark's note apparently today is a 
> redirect to something else, which looks suspiciously  like an 
> "eastern" web site. A few hours later it just gave an error "Internal 
> Server Error" http://www.sec-center.com/vb/   leads to: something 
> else. Virus perhaps? Hopefully they will get rid of the bad stuff so 
> we can see their web site.
> 
>  That is very bizarre.  I cut and pasted that URL 
>  from the Global Mapper web page that I 
> had just opened on my computer.  I just tried it again and it works 
> fine.  I wonder if Pete has a virus that is usurping URLs, which I 
> think someone mentioned recently.  Or maybe the Global Mapper site 
> was temporarily hit by something.  In any event, if my URL doesn't 
> work or looks suspicious, just type in the characters or Google 
> Global Mapper and you should get their site as one of the first 
> couple that come up.  I find their software, even the somewhat 
> limited free version, to be the best for using USGS topo map TIFF 
> images.  (One annoying limitation of the free version is that 
> printing and saving views are disabled.  This is easily circumvented, 
> however, by capturing a screen image ("print screen" key on a PC) of 
> the view you want to print, and then pasting it into an empty image 
> in a photo program like the excellent and free IrfanView 
> .  You can then manipulate that captured 
> image to crop out borders, etc., leaving you a simple topo snapshot 
> that can be printed and saved.)
> 
> Mark Minton
> 
> You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 
> 
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] Men indicted on charge of killing endangered bats :

[vivbone]

 it's encouraging to see all the comments on the news story, every one berating 
the idiot-sadists who did this.
  -- Original message from jerryat...@aol.com: --



Pair Charged with Killing Endangered Bats 

Two men have been indicted on federal charges of killing endangered bats at 
Carter Caves State Park.Posted: 9:38 AM Oct 7, 2009
Reporter: WSAZ News Staff
Email Address: n...@wsaz.com
 
ASHLAND, Ky. (WSAZ) -- Two men have been indicted on federal charges of killing 
endangered bats at Carter Caves State Park.
Kaleb Dee Morgan Carpenter and Lonnie Skaggs are charged with killing 23 bats 
in Laurel Cave on October 23, 2007. Skaggs is also charged with killing another 
82 bats three days later.
Wildlife officials say the bats were hibernating when they were killed.
The indictment says the pair used flashlights, rocks and their feet to kill the 
bats.
If convicted, the men face up to a year in prison and a fine.
The indictment does not list where the men are from or their ages.
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/63668292.html

Re: [Texascavers] New Zealand Caves

[vivbone]

 Hi Jesse,
I spent a couple months there in the early 90's. It was awesome, my first 
international trip. I wenton my own with 2 weeks notice and very little 
prparation. I caved agood deal of the time. It's really easy to do. You don't 
even have toknow anyone (but I will look up a few contacts I have for you 
later). On the North Island there is a town called Waitomo, which has a 
hostelwhich is run by the local caving club. NSS members could stay there 
for$3.00 per night as of 1993. In the hut is a flat file with cave maps,and a 
location map in the lower corner of each map. I found it reallyeasy to meet 
both cavers and other travelers, and to get into caves. Iended up taking some 
international travelers from the hostel with me tosome of them. It was a great 
experience. 

 But the really big caves areon the South Island. NZSS (New Zealand 
Speleological Society) isactively organizing expeditions to these areas. If you 
want to do therally hard core stuff, you'll need to coordinate with them.  Also 
onthe South Island is Harwood's Hole, which is the deepest pit in theSouthern 
Hemisphere (at a llittle over 500' I think) and can be done asa through trip. 
It might be easier to arrange a trip there. Lots ofother caves are near there, 
too, near the town of Nelson. Also there isanother cave-club owned "hut" near 
there. This one is not a hostel, but NSSmembers can stay there, too.

I can give more info later, after work.
-Vivian Loftin

 (512) 659-9486 (mobile),  (512) 441-2495 (home-office)


 -- Original message from Jesse Walker : 
--

Has anyone caved in New Zealand, or know any caving contacts there?  I'm going 
there in a little over a month, and want to do non-commercial caving.
 
 
Jesse

With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. Click here.

Re: [Texascavers] ICS related

[vivbone]

 Steve'smargin of error was actually .02 inches. Way less than 2 cm.  He 
brought his own equipment from Nevada, and spenta lot of time on it. It is 
greatly appreciated.  I'll be doing awrite up on the results. It's not often we 
get a chance to compare severalsurvey team's (seven to be exact) data to a well 
defined "correct" survey like this. 
-Vivian 
 
10

My good friend Steve Deveny proofed the survey course to i wanna say 2cm and is 
a professional surveyor.  I don't really have any input there just wanted to 
throw kudos where I could.

Re: [Texascavers] Re: ICS Amazing Backpack Stories

[vivbone]

 Apparently you do have to be on facebook to view the photos :-(
  -- Original message from Frank Binney : 
--


> I first met Bill Steele when we were young JV surveyors with CRF at Mammoth
> Cave circa 1969--1970. He was from Indiana and I was from Missouri at the
> time.
> By the way, here's a link to some ICS photos I put  up on my Facebook page.
> I don't think you have to be on Facebook to see them:
> http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2032400&id=1172443723#/album.php?aid=2
> 032400&id=1172443723&ref=mf
> --Frank
> 
> On 7/30/09 8:33 AM, "Charles Goldsmith"  wrote:
> 
> > And how long have you known Bill?  Caved with him?
> > 
> > Really cool story about the Grand Canyon and your pack though.
> > 
> > Charles
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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> 

Re: [Texascavers] NSS Fellows

[vivbone]

 David posted a few of them a few days ago. I deleted that. But I know that 
Aimee Beveridge, Julie Jenkins, and Vivian Loftin were among them. (of course, 
I remember only the UT grotto members, including myself. vanity vanity).  
  -- Original message from "J. LaRue Thomas" 
: --


> Could someone list the new NSS Fellows from TX (and NM)? My list for the 
> August Hole News is missing someone. Jacqui 
> 
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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> 

Re: [Texascavers] What it TAKES -- You got it... ICS TEXAS!

[vivbone]

 
 Just to help flush out the thank you list a little more:

Bill Stephens did a bang-up job on the speleolympics, with a lot of help from 
the multitudes.

Rod Goke- In addition to being sound-engineer for the Terminal Syphons, which 
was a full time job for at least 5 days straight, not counting the weeks of 
preparation, he also helped Rick Corbell with many of the other A/V needs.

-Vivian Loftin
 -- Original message from "Linda Palit" : 
--


> Many, many Texas Cavers stepped up to do a part to make ICS happen!  A few
> more THANKS! are in order -- in addition to all those mentioned before. I'll
> try not to list people already mentioned.
> 
> Things were not perfect, but they happened, and mostly smoothly.
> 
> Bev Shade came back from Argentina to deal with facilities.  She was still
> loading tables and tearing down when I was back to Kerrville about noon
> today.  Bev made sure there were tables and chairs where they needed to be
> -- 
> Rick Corbel did audio/visual.  He worked to make sure there were projectors
> and sound everywhere needed -- and work he did with the help of a host of
> others including Marvin Miller back from the southeast.
> Bill Steele put on Texas sized and style Howdy Party!  
> Bob Cowell worked on camp grounds -- and helped coordinate sinks, showers,
> trash cans, and whatever was needed in camp.
> Sara Ranzau was the ICE Queen -- making sure there was ice for the kegs,
> caving trips, kegs, and whatever else we needed Ice for.
> Travis Scott with the help of Joe Mitchell did trips -- caving -- trying to
> keep up with what was making, what was needed, what would work.
> Joe Ranzau coordinated food -- and other junk -- but the food was sometimes
> a big challenge with the guy who negotiated the food contract leaving so he
> did not have to make it happen.
> Kurt Menking organized Wednesday Trips and made sure they happened, calling
> a replacement driver out of bed to take a trip.
> Bob West and Josie Hooper were still working on rooms today -- great job
> with that.
> John Moses, ICS secretary, (El Paso is part of Texas) who helped organize it
> all and pitched in where needed.
> Joe Mitchell did cultural trips -- buses where people wanted to go in TEXAS
> -- though the River Trips were really hard with no water.
> Michael & Melissa Cicherski tried to keep us from bankrupting the NSS --
> maybe they succeeded -- but a very thankless job from my point of view.
> Jon Cradit coordinated facilities -- rentals and all the other stuff needed
> to make it happen.
> Allan Cobb and Sparky the golf cart coordinated all cultural events --
> parties, trips, banquets, and sundry.
> Charles Goldsmith came out of hiding to prove he is not a myth, and worked
> hard all week making sure we had internet -- then hauling kegs.
> 
> All of the people above could not have done it without all the help of each
> Texas Caver who pitched in for 30 minutes or 10 days. 
> I'm sure I have forgotten or missed specifics, but 
> 
> Texas hosted an International Congress and did a GREAT job!  
> Thanks to ALL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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[Texascavers] surveyor

[vivbone]

 
 I got the survey contest course for ICS layed out this weekend. I brought a 
Leica,   Total-Station professional land surveying instrument with the 
intention of running a precision survey of the course. But I discovered that 
there are a couple of technical details involved in getting it set up and 
calibrated to North that I could use some help with. Are there any lurking 
caver/surveyors out there who have experience with this? If so, please contact 
me off list.
Thanks!
Vivian Loftin
512-659-9486

Re: [Texascavers] Wednesday at ICS

[vivbone]

 
 And here's another:  but Nico's right, it's not the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azHqFabwZMQ&feature=related
 -- Original message from Lyndon Tiu : 
--


> Nico Escamilla wrote:
> > its not the same
> > 
> 
> Of course not. But better than nothing for us who have to work during 
> the week and will miss the show.
> 
> -- 
> Lyndon Tiu
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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> 

Re: [Texascavers] Wednesday at ICS

[vivbone]

 And... It's been done.   the dancin' part, anyway:


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azp51-9XRtQ
  -- Original message from Lyndon Tiu : 
--


> germa...@aol.com wrote:
> >   I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that the band is allowed to play past 11 
> > pm.  There are many bat watching field trips on Wed evening that will 
> > get some of us back to Kerrville really late, like around 11.
> > 
> 
> Can someone record and put on YouTube?
> 
> -- 
> Lyndon Tiu
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 

Re: [Texascavers] Wednesday at ICS

[vivbone]

 
 And of course, musn't forget the spectacular Terminal Siphons at the 
Campground party Wednesday night. 
This is a band made up of all cavers, but despite that, they will shake your 
dancning shoes off!!
 -- Original message from Mixon Bill : 
--


> "On Wednesdays of each ICS, there are no sessions or meetings.  
> Everyone goes on field trips." That might have been true at recent  
> ICSs, but I'm told that only about half of those preregistered this  
> year opted to pay for Wednesday trips, so the campus will certainly  
> not be abandoned. Some vendors will be open.--Mixon
> 
> One can live down anything except a good reputation.
> 
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
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> 

Re: [Texascavers] Re: Diesel fuel -- OT

[vivbone]

 
 Yes, it's illegal, and whether it was illegal or not, it is horrible stuff. 
Full of sulphur. Highly polluting.
Ionce had a fellow delivering rocks to a job site of mine drag groundwith his 
fuel tank. He spilled about 70 gallons of that illegal  redcrap down the 
driveway of my job. My client insisted on a new driveway(we got out of that 
one). We had do buy oil-eating microbes to treat itwith, and excaveted and 
hauled off 6 yard or so of contaminated soil,scrubbed the driveway on hands and 
knees, then couldn't get rid of thesoil because of the sulphur in the diesel. 
They considered it "highhazard" waste. Nasty, nasty, stuff.

 -Viv -- Original message from Nico Escamilla 
: --

Could that be the famous red diesel for farm use? I've heard is cheaper but 
fines are outrageously high if you get caugh using it in your vehicle and you 
get charged with tax evasion


On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Linda Palit  wrote:


And in Texas is there a separate grade or price for diesel fuelthat is not for 
on road use?
 

From: Nico Escamilla[mailto:pitboun...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 11:31 AM
To: David
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] more good news
 
Where's the cheapest place to get diesel fuel?
Inquiring oil burner minds want to know

Nico

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 10:26 AM,David wrote:
It looks like the gas prices during ICS are going tobe tolerable.

There does not seem to be anything in the news, other than the
July 4th weekend, that would suggest a rise in pump prices.

According to the web, gas prices in San Antonio are $ 2.45
plus or minus 10 cents.

People on a tight budget should be able to fill up their tanks
at discount places for as low as $ 2.33.

For me, I am probably need to budget $ 100 for gas expenses,
presuming I only make one trip to Kerrville and back, and don't
drive around too much in the hill country during the event.

Cavers driving from the east coast should find reasonable prices in
Jackson, Mississippi.Cavers driving from the west coast
should find reasonable prices in Tuscon.

David Locklear


Ref:

http://www.tucsongasprices.com/

http://www.elpasogasprices.com/

http://www.jacksongasprices.com/

http://www.dallasgasprices.com/

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RE: [Texascavers] Cave Book

[vivbone]

 
>>"Lechuguilla, the cave the action takesplace in has been largely 
>>fictionalized both for plot and because, topreserve it, the NPS has closed 
>>the cave to visitors."<<

It's true the cave is closed to sport caving, nevertheless, Nevada Barr did 
actually go there as prep for her book. Some of the characters are loosely 
recognizable as some of the people who escorted her. You can tell exactly how 
far she got if you know the cave. Her description is really accurate to a 
specific point, then becomes totally fictional. (Spoiler Alert:.. 
she got partway through The Rift)  Donald G. Davis likes to point out that some 
of her fictional rooms contain imposible combinations of evaporatonal and 
condensational formations.
-Viv Loftin
 -- Original message from Louise Power : 
--

Well, since we're talking cave books, I can recommend "Blind Descent" (1998) by 
Nevada Barr. Barr is a longtime Park Service employee whose 15 Anna Pigeon 
mysteries are set in National Parks. "Blind Descent" is set in Carlsbad Caverns 
NP. Here's a synopsis: 
 
Blind Descent, the sixth in the Anna Pigeon series, is set in Carlsbad Caverns 
National Park. Lechuguilla, the cave the action takes place in has been largely 
fictionalized both for plot and because, to preserve it, the NPS has closed the 
cave to visitors. Blind Descent was nominated for an Anthony Award.
 
Her first book, "Track of the Cat" (1993), was set in Guadalupe Mts NP.
 
Track of the Cat, the first in the Anna Pigeon series and winner of both the 
Anthony and the Agatha for best first novel, is set in Guadalupe Mountains 
National Park in Texas. 
"This is the book that gave Anna Pigeon life. Guadalupe Mountains was my second 
duty station with NPS. There were a couple of folks in Texas who really needed 
to be dead. I spent a lot of time wandering the back country wondering how I 
could kill them and get away with it. Fortunately, Anna Pigeon came along; 
otherwise I might be writing you this from the penitentiary."  Nevada
 
Her most recent, "Borderline" (2009) is set in Big Bend NP. I've not read this 
one, but if it lives up to all the others, it's very good. She's very 
knowledgable about the Park Service and its facilities, and her books have a 
very realistic quality.
 
Louise
 
> From: wa5...@peoplepc.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:52:30 -0500
> Subject: [Texascavers] Cave Book
> 
> Since we have had movie reports, how about a book report ...
> 
> Fiction: "Shibumi" by Trevanian, pseudonym for Rodney Whitaker
> 
> This book contains a great cave adventure/chase sequence. Add 
> this read to your summer 'round toit.
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 

Re: [Texascavers] World's largest cave room found in Vietnam

[vivbone]

 I believe it is techically the largest "passage", not the largest room. After 
all, it is 5km long, plus they compared it to Deer Cave which carries that 
distinction. It is the Sarawak Chamber in Gook Luck Cave in the same park as 
Deer Cave,  which is the largest chamber.

 
details, details.  This way we get to have so many types of "Big", and more 
winners!!

 -- Original message from "Lee H. Skinner" : 
--


>   An English potholing team has discovered a cave believed to be the 
> biggest in the world, in the Phong Nha-Ke Bang World Natural Heritage 
> site, according to officials of central Quang Binh province.
> 
> The English explorers told the provincial authorities at a meeting on 
> April 22 that the cave, called Son Doong, is some 200m high, 140-150m 
> wide and over 5km long, located in an area extremely difficult to 
> access, about 6 hours’ walk from the Ho Chi Minh trail, an official was 
> quoted as saying.
> 
> Son Doong has replaced the Deer cave in Malaysia to become the world’s 
> largest cave.
> 
> Read the complete article at:
> 
> http://is.gd/uiin
> 
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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> 

RE: [Texascavers] underground houses

[vivbone]

 Looks to me like that spike was "in" natural Bridge Caverns rather than 
"around" it. He mentions that the gray background elevation data drops out when 
he went underground because of the GPS not working then. Same thing for 
Carlsbad & Sonora. Though Sonora looks relatively radiation free. I'm amazed 
how high Natural Bridge is. 
  -- Original message from Louise Power : 
--



This discussion has caused me to remember an interesting graph I once saw where 
someone carried a geiger counter around TX and NM.
 
I found it again, here: http://www.randomuseless.info/vacation/vacation.html.
 
The graph itself is here: 
http://www.randomuseless.info/vacation/route/route.html.
 
Look at the peaks around Natural Bridge Caverns and the smaller one at Carlsbad 
Caverns and maybe an even smaller one at Caverns of Sonora. The author claims 
this might be due to Radon.
 
William
- Original Message - 
From: Louise Power 
To: Philip L Moss ; Texas Cavers 
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] underground houses

When I worked at Carlsbad Caverns NP, we were constantly monitored for our 
radon exposure. Each crew worked in a progressively deeper part of the caverns, 
then had to work on the surface for a period of time. Also our cave tech, Kay 
Rohde, came through several times a day with her little air tester which would 
suck in the air at different points in the cave and then she'd put her findings 
into her results program to find out where radon was the highest (back of the 
Big Room during the summer visitor peak, in case you were wondering). I don't 
know if they still do that or not.
 
Louise
 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:26:27 -0600
From: philipm...@juno.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] underground houses



In addition to Mixon's criticisms, there is always the issue of alpha 
radiation.  All earth material tends to have some alpha radiation emitters 
(often more simply and misleadingly called radon).  The more surfaces one has 
that are earth material (dirt, limestone, concrete), the more fresh air 
ventilation one needs to have healthy air.
 
Is caving dangerous because of alpha radiation? In very few caves is it, 
because none of us spends that much time in caves.  There are some western 
caves with some incredibly high alpha counts.
Is mining dangerous because of the 40-hour work week exposure.  No, because 
mines are ventilated with fresh air and the air quality is monitored.
Is living underground without a lot of fresh air ventilation or even cooling 
your home or business with cave air a health hazard?  Yes.
 
Wait a minute, alpha radiation can't even penetrate your skin, so this is all 
BS.  No, because the vector is from breathing in particles that are alpha 
emitters.  Breathing in alpha emitters tends to produce lung cancer.  High 
humidity promotes mold growth and overexposure to mold can cause other lung 
problems (personal experience and a visit to a pulmonologist).
 
If such a home had any appliances, there would be waste heat that would help 
(enough for the summertime??) decrease the relative humidity.  
 
Natural thermal attenuation and moderation are wonderful things and this email 
should not be construed to say that they are not worth pursuing.  However as 
with most things in life, the devil is in the details.
 
Philip L. Moss
philipm...@juno.com


 
Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your business.

Re: [Texascavers] Epic at Honey Creek Cave

[vivbone]

 
 sorry about the reply all. I meant to send that last one just to Bill

Re: [Texascavers] Epic at Honey Creek Cave

[vivbone]

 Hey Bill,
Nice write up. Thanks tons for sending that out to the masses.
I would think there needs to be a full accident analysis too, for posterity and 
learning purposes.

One thing I realized as I read it is that you may not know the full story of 
Joe Datri and John Kerr's trip, or how I ended up on the haul team after all.
Joe and John entered with a fellow named Jason. I came in almost 2 hours later 
with the photo crew planning on a short photo trip to the Grand Finale.  I ran 
into Joe, John, and Jason near the Grand Finale. They had been to the end, but 
still didn't realize they had taken the wrong passage from the shaft.  By that 
point I had my own wet suit, so I was pleased to have a second chance at 
getting on the 
haul team. So I took the extra load Joe had been hauling (it was really too 
much for 
him with his video equipment too) and proceeded to show them the way. We were 
in the 
boneyard area just before the long crawl starts when Jason realized he was in 
over 
his head. He asked "you mean it gets worse than this?". We debated what to do 
for
some time. Joe and John really wanted me to stay with them since 
I'd done the trip before, and they had been lost once already. At this point, 
having gone way out of their way, I don't think Joe was really up for taking my 
load back. Jason assured us repeatedly that he felt fine about the trip 
out alone. We did remember you saying no one goes out alone, but we decided that
under the circumstances (others downstream, goals to accomplish, his 
confindence level)
it would be OK.  As it turned out, Jason was not even carrying any dive gear. 
I had heard him say on the surface that he intened to go and just see how far
 he'd get, but didn't know if he'd make it all the way.  Before leaving him we 
reviewed all the landmarks repeatedly to be sure he knew what to look for. 
Luckily, he did not overshoot the entrance and made it out fine on his own.

Just so you know the full story...
Cheers,
Viv

Re: [Texascavers] guano question

[vivbone]

 
 David wrote:
>I am just curious which cave passages have you experienced your
worst encounter with bat guano.

The Vampire guano in Japones Cave in Mexico was pretty bad. Really deep red and 
sticky-slimy gooey. And the vampires were in a complete frenzy filling the 
passage and stirring up the choking smell. But we only had to walk ankle deep 
in it. It didn't even top my boots and wet my socks.

Then I thought I had experienced the worst the time I plunged one leg into a 2' 
diameter pothole full of semi-liquid quano in Borneo. Those potholes were 
everywhere so we really had to watch it. But even then, only one leg was 
completely saturated with the stuff, and I was able to wash off in the river 
that night.

But the true pinnacle of guano came the time George Veni took us to Sorcerer's 
cave here in Texas. It was the Boil-Boil-Guano-and-Trouble passage. This is a 
full on lake of pudding-consistency guano with a frosting of insect casings and 
dead bats. It's actually a series of these lakes. Apparently some of the 
original explorers wore hip waders (a rally good idea), but George swore he 
could cross the lakes without getting his balls wet, and it wouldn't be that 
bad.  But then, no one had been there is some time, and the guano dam on the 
far side had grown. It was at least waist deep for everyone, that is if you 
could maintain your perch on invisible ledges deep in the pools. Once on the 
far side, it was decided to take out the guano dam (something like a rimstone 
dam, but all pure guano)to lower the lakes to their previous levels. I thought 
the amonia and methane would kill us all for a minute there, but eventually the 
air did clear somewhat, and we all made it to our objectives. 

At the bottom of the cave is a really nice stream passage, so we could get nice 
and clean down there. But the trouble was you have to exit the cave through the 
guano lakes. On my way out of the cave, I was the lucky one who actually did 
fall full on into the over-my-head shit. I managed to barely keep my lips above 
guano, but my hair was saturated. It was freezing cold outside and we were in a 
100% dry camp, so when I stumbled out of the cave in the wee hours, I just 
washed my hands and face as best I could with a nalgene of water and crawled in 
my sleeping bag.

I was pleased to learn that the climb I did the next day did not require 
traversing the dreaded cesspool.

Poo-falls?
Shitslide?
guanoflow?


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[Texascavers] Geocorps Positions on the Tongass

[vivbone]

 forwarded from: Johanna Kovarik 

Hey Everyone;

Forwardthis to anyone you think might be interested - I'm advertising for 
2Geocorps interns to come up to the Tongass for 12 weeks during thesummer of 
2009 (May - August) and help with reorganizing our cave data- basically, we 
need two individuals to hike around in the woods andrelocate old caves and 
document them, and to locate new caves and helpmap them.  Part of that will 
involve updating our master cave inventorylayer in ArcGIS and entering cave 
survey data to help develop an"underground watershed" layer to be utilized in 
the future as we beefup our resource inventories, including hopefully a 
biological inventoryin the near future.

It would be great tohave individuals that are already cavers, and are already 
familliarwith cave mapping and inventory - but this is an internship and not 
apaid position!  The geocorps interns will each receive a $2750 stipendfor the 
summer and free housing.   While out in the field, they willreceive free food 
(and what caver can't turn down free food?).  Theymust be prepaired for hard 
core hiking through rough terrain, thickvegetation, and can't be bothered by 
rain.

If you know of any interested individuals, encourage them to apply at the GSA 
webapge: http://rock.geosociety.org/g_corps/2009/allJobDescriptions.asp  and 
feel free to send them my email if they have any questions.
There are also a few other cave and karst related positions up forgrabs, one of 
them working with Ben and Joel down at SEKI, and one atMammoth!

The positions up in Alaska are officially called "Cave Resource Technicians", 
Tongass National Forest.

Thanks!  Hope you all are doing well!

cheers,

Johanna

Re: [Texascavers] RE: Longhorn Caverns State Park offers concert series Nov.22

[vivbone]

 
 "This downward drainage 
continued until great underground stream beds were cut out of solid rock. It is 
this unusual combination of dissolving and cutting by water that makes Longhorn 
Cavern one of the most unique caves of the world."

Yes, this is also one of the very very rare caves which is located EXACTLY
 above the center of the earth.

Puh-lz
 -- Original message from "Jim Kennedy" : 
--


> -Original Message-
> From: Samantha Peek [mailto:sam.p...@tpwd.state.tx.us] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:25 PM
> To: Jim Kennedy
> Subject: Longhorn Caverns State Park offers concert series Nov.22
> 
> Hi,  This event is coming up November 22nd in Longhorn Caverns State Park. 
> Could you possibly share this event with your audience? If not, could you 
> possibly 
> include it in a calendar listing? Thanks!
> 
> Nov.13, 2008
> Media Contact: Tom Harvey, (512) 389-4533, tom.har...@tpwd.state.tx.us
> 
> Longhorn Caverns State Park offers concert series
> BURNET, Texas—A piano concert in an underground cavern? That is what’s 
> planned Nov. 22 at Longhorn Caverns State Park, when local pianist Joe Cordi 
> will offer a jazz concert as part of the Simple Sounds Cavern Concert Series. 
>   
> A live entertainment series in the cave, "Simple Sounds," is exactly that, 
> just the musicians, their instruments, and the acoustics of the cavern; a 
> truly 
> "unplugged" performance. On November 22, Joe Cordi, a composer, jazz pianist, 
> guitarist, accordionist and singer of Austin, will release his new album, â
> €œWhen the Pianoman Plays the Blues”, in accordance with a concert 
> performance 
> deep within the Longhorn Caverns State Park caves. A grand piano will be 
> brought 
> into the cave for the event.
> 
> Simple Sounds is scheduled one to three times per month from 5:45 p.m. to 
> 8:30 
> p.m. A concert schedule can be viewed online at the Web site address listed 
> below. Concert tickets can be purchased for adults for $17 and seniors and 
> teens 
> ages 13 to 19 for $16. If guests wish to participate in the dinner offered 
> before the concert at 5 p.m., tickets are $27 for adults and $26 for seniors 
> and 
> teens.  No one under age 13 is allowed. Shoes and socks as well as a blanket 
> or 
> light jacket are recommended. Guests are allowed to bring flashlights, video 
> cameras, and ice chests but food is prohibited.
> 
> Longhorn Cavern State Park, south of Burnet in Burnet County, is 645.62 acres 
> classified as a scenic park in the rugged Hill Country. The cave was first 
> formed when the ground levels of water began to drop. As this downward 
> movement 
> occurred, the water began to dissolve the limestone. This downward drainage 
> continued until great underground stream beds were cut out of solid rock. It 
> is 
> this unusual combination of dissolving and cutting by water that makes 
> Longhorn 
> Cavern one of the most unique caves of the world.
> 
> The cave is 68 degrees year round. The park offers guided tours that last 
> approximately 1 hour and 25 minutes. For guest safety and comfort, low-heeled 
> shoes with rubber soles are recommended. Open every day except Christmas Eve 
> and 
> Christmas Day.
>  Longhorn Cavern State Park is located approximately 6 miles west and 6 miles 
> south of Burnet, Texas on Park Road 4, off US Highway 281.
> …
> On the Net: 
> http://www.josephcordi.com/
> http://www.longhorncaverns.com/schedule.html
> http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findadest/parks/longhorn_cavern/
> __
> Texas Parks & Wildlife, 4200 Smith School Road, Austin, TX 78744 United States
> 

RE: [Texascavers] Honeypot Ant: Photobucket of Caving Pictures (South Austin)

[vivbone]

 more evidence, from a linked research paper

"Worldwide there are several very different kinds of ants that exhibit extreme 
repletism; all are properly called honey ants. One outstanding group; the genus 
Myrmecocystus, occurs exclusively in western North America. Myrmecocystus 
contains a diverse ensemblage of at least 28 closely related species, many of 
which are broadly distributed."

http://www.sasionline.org/antsfiles/pages/honeyants/honey.html


I believe it is the honeypot ant.

>From Wikepedia I found this:
Myrmecocystus nests are found in a variety of arid or semi-aridenvironments. 
Some species live in extremely hot deserts, others residein transitional 
habitats, and still other species can be found inwoodlands where it is somewhat 
cool but still very dry for a large partof the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_ant

ROCKHUGGER
 Andy Zenker
Texas Caver





--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Louise Power  wrote:
From: Louise Power 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Photobucket of Caving Pictures (South Austin)
To: andyzen...@yahoo.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:18 PM


Andy, What was that big orange ant-looking thing with the huge abdomen from 
Deep? 
  

Re: [Texascavers] mailing list work

[vivbone]

 
 Hi Charles,
I hope replying to this address is alright. It seems I was somehow bumped from 
the list when you changed servers. This one from you is the last I've received 
from the list. I have tried to re-subscribe by sending email messages to 
subscr...@texascavers.com and I've tried sending a message to 
h...@texascavers.com, but both bounced with this  message: 
The following addresses had fatal errors:
  h...@texascavers.com: 450 [TEMPFAIL] destination not valid within DNS

I don't have any spam-blocking software running. I miss texascavers :-(
Any ideas? I remember having similar trouble before, but don't recall how it 
was resolved then
Thanks Tons!!
Vivian Loftin
 -- Original message from "Charles Goldsmith" 
: --


> Please don't send any email to the texascavers.com mailing list until
> you hear back from me.  If you do, it will likely be lost.  I'll be
> moving the domain to a new server over the next hour or so.
> 
> Thanks
> Charles
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 

Re: [Texascavers] Florida Showers

[vivbone]

 So .. What did the Terminal Siphons do? They play the campground party 
Wednesday night. Was there a shelter or a building? Their home-bound sax player 
wants to know...
-Vivian Loftin
 -- Original message from dirt...@comcast.net: --


Mark Minton's weather report is accurate, of course.   Nut don't forget to keep 
things in perspective.  Remenber the two South Dakota conventions?  In the 
first the tornado (really!) went through the campground  ripping tree limbs and 
in the second lightening actuallys struck in the campground at Sheldon's.  The 
downburst in Marengo (although Mark, in the wet of the moment, thinks this year 
"rivaled" it).  And need I even remark about Tularosa.  We DO have a history 
---.
 
Anyhow, there is one day left and Friday dawns bright, almost cloudless.  But 
the convention is not over!  The full-fledged hurrican appears avoided.
 
DirtDoc
 
PS - we had a wonderful rundown on the 2009 ICS in Kerrville at the photo salon 
last night.  The convention of a lifetime!! It should not to be missed!  Start 
planning to attend NOW!  Oh - and if you want to present a paper, also start 
planning NOW. Deadlines (check the web site) for abstract submission for 
CONSIDERATION (more papers will be offered than can be accomodated) is, I 
think, around Christmas.  That applies to all papers - exploration, techniques, 
etc.  You are competing with the rest of the world to be heard next year.  
Different rules for the International.  That is one of the reasons it will be 
so great.

Re: [Texascavers] RE: Here's a fun one

[vivbone]

 
 So, just curious, but when you speak of "cave earth" or "dirt" you really mean 
guano, right?
-Viv
 -- Original message from "Minton, Mark" : 
--



  Bill Steele posted from TAGNet:
 
>A particular saltpeter producer in Jefferson County, TN made up 40,000# of 
>gunpowder during the War of 1812 and sent it to Andy Jackson so he would help 
>win the war. My question is, what is the percentage of nitrates that thie 
>shipment had, in pounds? And approximately how much dirt would have to been 
>manhandled to obtain said amount?
 
  According to the Encyclopedia of Caves and Karst Science (Gunn), 
gunpowder is 75% saltpetre and 25% charcoal and sulfur.  So 40,000 lb of 
gunpowder would contain 30,000 lb of saltpetre.  The Encyclopedia also states 
that the yield of saltpetre from caves was typically 1 - 3 lb per bushel of 
cave earth, which would have required 10,000 - 30,000 bushels of cave earth.  
However an article in the Journal of Cave and Karst Studies 
 stated that the 
yield at Mammoth Cave was 3 - 5 lb per bushel and that figure was used to 
calculate the yield from Saltpeter Cave specifically for the War of 1812, which 
would give 6,000 - 10,000 bushels of cave earth for the 30,000 lb of saltpetre. 
 A bushel is 1.25 cubic feet, and according to NIST 
 dirt 
weighs an average of 120 lb per cubic foot, so the weight of cave dirt handled 
would have been 1,500,000 - 4,500,000 lbs or 900,000 - 1,500,000 lbs, depending 
on yield.
 
  Bill, please post this to TAGNet, as I am not a member of that list.  
Thanks!
 
Mark Minton

Re: [Texascavers] "Anything that Floats" competition at TCR. Survey said...!

[vivbone]

 
  Sounds like a blast! 
Very well though out, Alex. But howwill we get the broken balloons out of the 
river? That latex can't begood for river fauna. Otherwise it's a perfect plan. 
Maybe we just needa clean-up crew downstream with masks and snorkels.
 -Vivian Loftin -- Original message from mark.al...@l-3com.com: 
--


> 
> All,
> Alex posted this last week on OT-Caving and I was wondering how much interest 
> from individuals and Grottos there would be on doing this event at TCR.
> 
> This sounds like a great event for TCR!
> We have some great water, an excellent waterfront to view the festivities, 
> and 
> plenty of "creative" types to pull off something like this.
> Not to mention the abundant supply of scoundrels, rascals, wenches, and other 
> nefarious types we have in the state!
> With all of the vertical competitions, this would be a great addition to the 
> weekend festivities.
> To avoid any kind of trademark infringement, we would have to rename it to 
> something like "Redneck Regatta" or something else y'all think of.
> Allan Cobb would have final say on conducting this event, but for now, I 
> would 
> like to see what kind of interest we would have in this.
> 
> 
> Whaddya all think?
> 
> 
> Mark Alman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Alex Sproul [mailto:imoca...@comcast.net] 
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:54 AM
> To: tag-...@hiddenworld.net; o...@texascavers.com
> Subject: [ot_caving] "Anything that Floats" competition at OTR
> 
>   ANYTHING THAT FLOATS COMPETITION
> 
> It´s OTR´s Year-of-the-Pirate!!! In keeping with the spirit of piracy, OTR
> 2008 will feature a new competition called "Anything that Floats" - a race
> on the high seas, or the Tygart, whichever is closer. Blackjack Tobias
> Robertson invites all pirates over the age of 16 to participate in this
> point-to-point race where acts of piracy are encouraged and booty awaits
> the winner. Below are the Articles of Agreement which all pirates must
> follow in order to participate.
> 
> The race is intended to be a group effort. Minimum number of pirates is 2;
> there is no maximum.
> 
> *  All pirates must sail inside the ship.
> 
> *  All ships must actually float on their own, without support.
> 
> *  Motors are not permitted; all ships must be man-powered.
> 
> *  Ships cannot be real boats, canoes, kayaks, or rafts. Ships must be
> built and can be made out of any materials - gallon milk jugs tied
> together, a bath tub (if you can get it to float), skis, foam, etc.
> 
> *  All materials and ships must be packed out of the campground, not left
> on-site or thrown in the dumpsters.
> 
> *  Admiral John Harris will inspect all ships for safety and adherence to
> the Articles of Agreement. All ships must pass his safety inspection in
> order to race.
> 
> *  Race at your own risk! You are responsible for your own safety and
> welfare. If you think you need safety equipment, such as a life-jacket,
> please bring it with you. Safety equipment will not be provided by OTR or
> TRA. TRA, OTR, and individual persons volunteering for TRA or OTR will 
> not be liable if you get hurt.
> 
> *  Minimum age is 16. All pirates ages 16 and 17 must have parental 
> consent to participate; and a parent or LEGAL guardian must be present.
> 
> *  The Admiral will determine the length and direction of the race 
> depending upon the river conditions; and he may call-off, delay, or 
> stop the race if river conditions are not favorable.
> 
> *  One grand prize will be awarded to the winner of the race. The 
> winner is the entry that arrives at the finish line first, still floating 
> under 
> its 
> own power, with all pirates still aboard (except those that accidentally fall 
> in 
> the water).
> 
> *  A second prize will be awarded for the most original/creative 
> entry, based on such things as: costumes, pirate role-playing, ship 
> originality/creativity.
> 
> *  One group can win both prizes. Both prizes will be determined by a
> panel of 5 judges immediately following the race. Both prizes will be
> announced and booty will be awarded to the winners immediately following
> the race.
> 
> *  The race is not part of the Speleo-Olympics.
> 
> *  The race is scheduled to occur during the River Party on Sunday. 
> Exact time will be announced in the "COOT and Holler" and will be 
> posted at the River Party stage, the Party Pavilion, and area bulletin
> boards.
> 
> 
> PIRATE CODE OF CONDUCT DURING THE RACE
> 
> *  Acts of piracy to sink or stop another ship are encouraged; but are
> limited to throwing water balloons or shooting at each other with water
> pistols. Content in balloons must be un-dyed/uncontaminated potable or
> river water (natural pollutants already exist in the river water; don´t
> add more to it). Water in balloons cannot be frozen. Limit is 1 dozen
> balloons and 1 dozen water pistols per ship.
> 
> *  The Admiral may inspect water balloons an

RE: [Texascavers] Re: Tax deductible caving volunteer work?

[vivbone]

Tax deductions for cave voluteering is absolutely cave related and highly 
relevant. 
my 2 cents,
Vivian

-- Original message --
From: "Alex Sproul" 
>



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Re: [Texascavers] bats cats and mice

[vivbone]

In Borneo I observed that most species of bat which commonly inhabit the caves 
of Gunung Buda (Sarawak, Malaysia), including some cave-roosting fruit bats, 
tend to roost near the entrances. There, it is the swiftlets (birds) which 
travel kms into the caves. They echolocate using clicks. They nest on cave 
walls by building nests with their specialized sticky saliva, and sometimes 
moss. We also observed seriously heavily traveled small rodent trails well into 
the dark zone there. Their little rodent bones practically formed drifts in 
some areas. There are some major snake trails too. The cave racer snakes also 
travel well into the dark zone and hang out at constrictions in the passage to 
catch the swiftlets commuting in and out of the caves. It's pretty impressive.

Back to mammals- British cavers exploring in nearby Mulu National Park had 
reported that their snacks had been chewed into by some mysterious mammal some 
kms underground. We set about trying to trap whatever previously-unknown 
troglobitic slow loris might be present with a pretty good sized rat trap. But 
it turned out that the porcupine we later saw scurrying away was far too big 
for our trap. We saw some really cute brown rats with white bellies in another 
cave. They were hanging out in the dark zone too, but pretty close to 
entrances. They seemed unafraid of us and just went about their rat business as 
long as they were underground and blinded by our lights.

Another time I was overnighting alone just about 200' into the dark zone of a 
small California cave. I made fast friends with a very docile and friendly 
little mouse who would let me pet him. We met when he woke me up chewing my 
Hershey's with Almonds by my ear. I was happy to share.

-Vivian

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Re: [Texascavers] RE: Breakthrough in Texas Longest Cave

[vivbone]

All I know is my body hurt a whole lot worse after Airmans than it does now. 
And 
I did the trip out of Honey Creek with nothing but 2 socks on one foot, and zip 
ties holding the sole on the boot on the other foot. Of course, I did NOT carry 
a tank at all. I just had the fins. But James does have some big, fancy fins. I 
think the sitting around for hours in the back is part of what makes it seem 
easier. It's almost like a mini camp or bivy so it seems like 2 trips instead 
of 
one.
-Vivian Loftin

>   Bill Steele said:
> 
> >Having done it, (Vivian Loftin) thinks maybe a trip to the back of Airman's 
Cave is 
> tougher.

Then Mark Minton said:
> 
>   Hmm, I don't think so.  The actual physical travel to the back of 
Airmen's 
> might be tougher, but combined with hauling dive gear and then sitting around 
> for hours waiting makes that Honey Creek sump haul tougher in my book.  I'll 
be 
> interested to hear what Bill Steele thinks when he does the comparison.  :-)

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Re: [Texascavers] RE: QUITE AN ANALOGY

[vivbone]

I've learned to tolerate, and even enjoy the off topic discussions of vehicles 
on this listserve. LED household bulbs, google maps, and truck tents are 
similarly interesting, if not directly cave related.
 
But I have to draw the line at blatant political rhetoric. This is not what 
this list is for. This is taking advantage of an easy medium to reach lots of 
people. People who did not sign up for political propaganda.

-- Original message --
From: "Fritz Holt" 
>
> Phyllis, I whole-heartedly agree. Our federal, state and local
> governments are out of control with crazy liberal (and some
> conservative) legislators and officials enacting and supporting such
> inane laws and rules.
> I wish it were as easy as simply "taking down the bird feeder" which
> seems to be out of reach. Unfortunately, these officials don't seem to
> hear their constituent's cries.
> Or is it that we who pay the overblown budgets are no longer the
> majority?
> Until there is an outcry of opposition by the voting majority and REAL
> policing of our borders this burdensome problem will not be corrected.
> The groundswell has not yet become large enough to garner the attention
> of those with the power to address the matter in the proper manner.
> Let's pray that it does soon.
> Fritz Holt, a concerned citizen and lover of our great country and its
> LEGAL freedoms and opportunities.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Sullivan, Phyllis [mailto:psulli...@second.org] 
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 3:01 PM
> To: Fritz Holt
> Subject: FW: QUITE AN ANALOGY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: Fw: QUITE AN ANALOGY
> 
> >>> I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it
> >>>with seed.
> >>>
> >>> Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the
> >>>continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.
> >>>
> >>> But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the
> >>>patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.
> >>>
> >>> Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the
> >>>chairs, the table...everywhere.
> >>
> >>> Then some of the birds turned mean:
> >>>
> >>> They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed
> >>>them out of my own pocket.
> >>>
> >>> And others birds were boisterous and loud:
> >>>
> >>> They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the
> >>>day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.
> >>>
> >>> After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore.
> >>>
> >>> I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone.
> >>>
> >>> I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built
> >>>all over the patio.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Soon, the back yard was like it used to be.. quiet, serene and
> >>>no one demanding their rights to a free meal.
> >>>
> >>> Now lets see... our government gives out free food, subsidized
> >>>housing, free medical care, free education and allows anyone born
> >>>here to be an automatic citizen.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Then the illegal's came by the tens of thousands.
> >>>
> >>> Suddenly ! our taxes went up to pay for free services; small
> >>>apartments are housing 5 families: you have to wait 6 hours to be
> >>>seen by an emergency room doctor: your child's 2nd grade class is
> >>>behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak
> >>>English: Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press
> >>>"one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags
> >>>other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets,
> >>>demanding more rights and free liberties.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe it's time for the! government to take down the bird feeder.
> >>>
> >>> If you agree, pass this on.
> >> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
> 
> Confidentiality Note:  This message and any attachments 
> may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information.  
> Any unauthorized disclosure, use or dissemination of this e-mail 
> message or its contents, either in whole or in part, is prohibited.  
> If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail message, 
> kindly notify the sender and then destroy it.
> 
> **
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Texascavers] injured New Zealand caver is out

[vivbone]

Took 3 days, but they got him out OK.
Looks like it's going to be a long recovery, but he'll be alright.

More info:
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1316907/1325468
-- Original message --
From: "Geary  Schindel" 
>
> FYI,
> I've been to this area of New Zealand and it has some fantastic caves and 
> karst 
> including Harwood Hole, a 130 meter pit.  open air pit and through trip and 
> one 
> of the top 10 largest springs in the world.
> Geary
> Motueka doctor injured in caves 400m down 
> By HELEN MURDOCH and NZPA - The Press | Monday, 27 August 2007
> 
> 
> Injured caver Michael Brewer has spoken to his wife and daughters, 24 hours 
> after being struck by falling rocks in an underground caving network near 
> Nelson. 
> 
> 
> The Motueka doctor is trapped 400m underground, and will have to be literally 
> passed hand-to-hand by rescuers through the complex limestone system under 
> the 
> Takaka Hill - an operation expected to take at least two days. 
> 
> Brewer, a local GP, was one of four cavers exploring and surveying the Green 
> Link/ Middle Earth cave system when he was hit by falling rocks about 5pm on 
> Saturday. Two cavers raised the alarm while another remained with 47-year-old 
> Brewer, an experienced caver. 
> 
> Rescue co-ordinator Hugh Flower said a rescue party of five people, including 
> a 
> doctor, went into the cave about 5am yesterday. 
> 
> Flower said Brewer was about 3km into the caving system, which usually took 
> about five hours to travel. 
> 
> "We got the communications system into where he is at about 5.30 this 
> evening. 
> It's taken the best part of a day just to get the communications system into 
> him, which gives you some idea of the terrain." 
> 
> Flower said Brewer's wife, Sarah, was also a caver, "one of our search and 
> rescue people normally". 
> 
> For this rescue, however, she would be remaining on the surface with the 
> couple's two teenage daughters. 
> 
> Sarah Brewer said the family was "very relieved" to hear her husband's 
> condition 
> had not deteriorated overnight. 
> 
> Flower said Brewer had a possible pelvic fracture, but was "lucid and 
> comfortable". 
> 
> Sarah Brewer said it was reassuring to know so many cavers - about 40 - had 
> raced to the scene from all over New Zealand to help with the rescue. 
> 
> "We're very grateful to them for responding so quickly, and we're aware that 
> Michael and the rescue team have a big job in front of them to get him out of 
> the cave safely," she said. 
> 
> "We managed to talk to Michael not long after they got the communications in 
> there - he sounds quite cheerful and it was great to hear his voice." 
> 
> Flower said the logistics of transporting Brewer to the surface meant it 
> would 
> probably take at least two days to bring him out. 
> 
> "We've now got to start the slow process of getting him out, which is 
> basically 
> passing him from hand to hand with relay teams, which will probably take a 
> couple of days. 
> 
> "The fact that he's not mobile means we're going to have to move him from 
> hand 
> to hand, so it's going to take a long time. There are lots of tight squeezes, 
> and ups and downs." 
> 
> As well as 40-plus cavers from around New Zealand, support teams and the base 
> operations team at the Motueka SAR base meant more than 70 people were 
> involved 
> in the rescue. 
> 
> Flower said Brewer was remaining positive. 
> 
> "He's pretty comfortable, and obviously on painkillers. He's the best that he 
> can be." 
> 
> Brewer was knocked unconscious and suffered the suspected fractured pelvis 
> when 
> he fell after being hit by rocks while scaling a rockfall in the bottom of 
> the 
> Greenlink cave system. 
> 
> Brewer, the region's cave rescue doctor, had been surveying the extensive 
> vertical cave system. 
> 
> Police were alerted at 11pm on Saturday after two of Brewer's companions 
> undertook the five-hour climb out of the system to raise the alarm. 
> 
> Flower said the system was "cold, dark, damp and tight", and the mission of 
> extracting Brewer would operate around the clock. 
> 
> Debbie Cade, of the New Zealand Speleological Society and the Nelson 
> Speleological Group, said Brewer was a highly regarded and experienced caver. 
> However, the area had some tight squeezes, which might have to be modified to 
> allow stretcher access, she said
> 



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Re: [Texascavers] FYI - New Zealand Rescue

[vivbone]

Wow. I stayed with Michael and Sierra Brewer when I visited New Zealand in 
1993. They are wonderfull, welcoming cavers. I've been to Greenlink Cave, too. 
It's a challenging, wet, climby, vertical, fairly cold, marble cave. I hope 
they don't have to take him through the low air crawl with the pit at the end 
of. In the best of conditions, to get out of the cave that way you have to 
ascend, then basicly climb through the waterfall into the crawl, before getting 
off rope while laying in the water. That's near the Greenlink entrance. There 
are other entrances.

Godspeed to them.

Vivian 

-- Original message --
From: "Geary  Schindel" 
>
> FYI,
> I've been to this area of New Zealand and it has some fantastic caves and 
> karst 
> including Harwood Hole, a 130 meter pit.  open air pit and through trip and 
> one 
> of the top 10 largest springs in the world.
> Geary
> Motueka doctor injured in caves 400m down 
> By HELEN MURDOCH and NZPA - The Press | Monday, 27 August 2007
> 
> 
> Injured caver Michael Brewer has spoken to his wife and daughters, 24 hours 
> after being struck by falling rocks in an underground caving network near 
> Nelson. 
> 
> 
> The Motueka doctor is trapped 400m underground, and will have to be literally 
> passed hand-to-hand by rescuers through the complex limestone system under 
> the 
> Takaka Hill - an operation expected to take at least two days. 
> 
> Brewer, a local GP, was one of four cavers exploring and surveying the Green 
> Link/ Middle Earth cave system when he was hit by falling rocks about 5pm on 
> Saturday. Two cavers raised the alarm while another remained with 47-year-old 
> Brewer, an experienced caver. 
> 
> Rescue co-ordinator Hugh Flower said a rescue party of five people, including 
> a 
> doctor, went into the cave about 5am yesterday. 
> 
> Flower said Brewer was about 3km into the caving system, which usually took 
> about five hours to travel. 
> 
> "We got the communications system into where he is at about 5.30 this 
> evening. 
> It's taken the best part of a day just to get the communications system into 
> him, which gives you some idea of the terrain." 
> 
> Flower said Brewer's wife, Sarah, was also a caver, "one of our search and 
> rescue people normally". 
> 
> For this rescue, however, she would be remaining on the surface with the 
> couple's two teenage daughters. 
> 
> Sarah Brewer said the family was "very relieved" to hear her husband's 
> condition 
> had not deteriorated overnight. 
> 
> Flower said Brewer had a possible pelvic fracture, but was "lucid and 
> comfortable". 
> 
> Sarah Brewer said it was reassuring to know so many cavers - about 40 - had 
> raced to the scene from all over New Zealand to help with the rescue. 
> 
> "We're very grateful to them for responding so quickly, and we're aware that 
> Michael and the rescue team have a big job in front of them to get him out of 
> the cave safely," she said. 
> 
> "We managed to talk to Michael not long after they got the communications in 
> there - he sounds quite cheerful and it was great to hear his voice." 
> 
> Flower said the logistics of transporting Brewer to the surface meant it 
> would 
> probably take at least two days to bring him out. 
> 
> "We've now got to start the slow process of getting him out, which is 
> basically 
> passing him from hand to hand with relay teams, which will probably take a 
> couple of days. 
> 
> "The fact that he's not mobile means we're going to have to move him from 
> hand 
> to hand, so it's going to take a long time. There are lots of tight squeezes, 
> and ups and downs." 
> 
> As well as 40-plus cavers from around New Zealand, support teams and the base 
> operations team at the Motueka SAR base meant more than 70 people were 
> involved 
> in the rescue. 
> 
> Flower said Brewer was remaining positive. 
> 
> "He's pretty comfortable, and obviously on painkillers. He's the best that he 
> can be." 
> 
> Brewer was knocked unconscious and suffered the suspected fractured pelvis 
> when 
> he fell after being hit by rocks while scaling a rockfall in the bottom of 
> the 
> Greenlink cave system. 
> 
> Brewer, the region's cave rescue doctor, had been surveying the extensive 
> vertical cave system. 
> 
> Police were alerted at 11pm on Saturday after two of Brewer's companions 
> undertook the five-hour climb out of the system to raise the alarm. 
> 
> Flower said the system was "cold, dark, damp and tight", and the mission of 
> extracting Brewer would operate around the clock. 
> 
> Debbie Cade, of the New Zealand Speleological Society and the Nelson 
> Speleological Group, said Brewer was a highly regarded and experienced caver. 
> However, the area had some tight squeezes, which might have to be modified to 
> allow stretcher access, she said
> 



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Re: [Texascavers] RE: Gory, Gory, what a hell of a way to die (Blood Upon the Risers)

[vivbone]

Just to clear this up for our foreign born readers-
The song from which all these Gory Gory lyrics are derived is The Battle Hymn 
of the Republic circa the US civil war.

Yes it's religious. Yes it's political. 
It's the unofficial anthem of the Republican Party.

It goes like this:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps,
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps:
His day is marching on.

Chorus

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my condemners, so with you my grace shall deal;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on."

Chorus

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat:
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

Chorus

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

Chorus

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is Wisdom to the mighty, He is Succour to the brave,
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of Time His slave,
Our God is marching on.

Chorus



-- Original message --
From: Ted Samsel 
>



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Re: [Texascavers] NSS Convention - report # 7

[vivbone]

David wrote:
> At least 3 of the Terminal Siphons are here, Lisa, Keith, and Albert.
> I hope they have a sax player this year.


Alas, I am unable to make it to Indiana this year, and we haven't heard from 
Robin in at least a couple of years now.  Surely Paul Burger will come with his 
Air Saxophone!  But it looks like no live sax this year. But Jake on harmonica 
and all the others can handily take up the slack. I'm hoping the Terminal 
Siphons can play again at TCR this year, so I can at least get in my one gig of 
the year. Of course, TCR croud appreciation ain't nothin' like the True Love 
the Siphons get from the NSS convention croud.  Please tell them I miss them 
and wish I was there!! Have a blast.

Vivian Loftin



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Re: [Texascavers] contacts in (peninsular) Malaysia?

[vivbone]

The best caving in Malaysia is on the island of Borneo, not on the Peninsula. 
But my old lonely planet guide does mention a cave in Taman Negara National 
Park 
on the peninsula. Its a 1 1/2 hour walk to Gua Tlinga (cave)from park 
headquarters. "a stream runs through the cave and a rope guides you for the 
strenuous half-hour walk and crawl through the cave (bring a torch)".

The largest known cave chamber in the world is in Mulu National Park in 
Sarawak, 
Malaysia on the island of Borneo. This park is absoluely gorgeous and well set 
up for tourist caving and jungle treking. You must hire a guide to visit any 
cave, or even to go on most of the trails in the park. But it is possible to 
hire a guide and do some bad-ass sport caving there. Surveying caves without a 
permit, which is extremly dificult and confusing to obtain, is illegal. Liz 
Price is indeed a good contact for Malaysian caving, but she too is on the 
island of Borneo. She was residing in Brunei last I heard. Whatever you do, 
don't tell them I sent you. We were asked to leave the coutry (in rather 
confusing and unpleasant terms) the last two times I was there. As long as you 
go there and act like a tourist and spend money, you will have no problems. But 
the politics of doing any real caving or research there are a nightmare. I'll 
tell you all about it over a campfire sometime.
-Vivian Loftin

-- Original message --
From: David Ochel 
>
> Hi,
> 
> I'm planning on being in Singapore and around for a couple of days at
> the end of August. I hear there is good caving in Malaysia. Does anybody
> have any contacts there?
> 
> Thanks,
> David
> 
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Re: [Texascavers]OT gas prices

[vivbone]

Until the price of gas actually reflects the costs of extracting it and using 
it, (way more than the artificially low $3 or $4 per gallon we're talking 
about) the earth is in serious jeopardy.  The only thing that will ever make 
people conserve is economic pressure. The price of each gallon of gas should 
include the health costs of smog, the long term costs of global warming, and 
highway construction and maintenance costs (including the destruction and 
fragmentation of wilderness). Then all government subsidies and tax breaks for 
oil and gas should be eliminated. 

Gas really costs WAY more than gas costs now. We should be paying what it costs.


-- Original message --
From: "Bill Mixon" 
>
> Back some months ago, when gas prices were lower, I actually saw $1.99 a
> gallon at one station. I was tempted to go in, although I would have needed
> only a couple of gallons, just on principle.
> It might help if you-know-who would stop making wars in the Middle East
> and shut up about Iran. Don't suppose we can do much about the fact that
> Nigeria is lawless.--Mixon
> ---
> You may "Reply" to the address from which this message was sent,
> but note the following permanent addresses for long-term use:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org, sa...@amcs-pubs.org
> 
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] Tourist cave worker found dead after failing to return from inside

[vivbone]

Yeah, and end the end it was cavers, Jean Krejca and Linda Palit, who were able 
to get in and pull him (the body) out. That was after rescuers lowered the 
water 
level by 4" or so using huge pumps. It wasn't that they didn't know where he 
was. It was a flood situation.

Tragic.

-- Original message --
From: Nancy Weaver 
>
> >
> >More than 90 searchers from the South Texas Regional Advisory 
> >Council for Trauma, San Antonio Fire Department Technical Rescue 
> >Team and spelunkers specializing in special rescues took part.
> 
> It took 90! people to find someone in known passage?  Good thing we 
> have all those specialists.
> 
> Nancy
> 
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