Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Acronyms can be a bit of a mystery unless you follow the trail. CBD = Center for Biological Diversity. Their job is to save endangered or threatened species and, therefore, bats with white nose syndrome. Linda Starr On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Kristopher Megahan < kristopher.mega...@magnablend.com> wrote: > What is the CBD? > > ** ** > > *Kristopher D. Megahan* > > Technical Director > > Magnablend, Inc. > > (972) 938-2028 ext. 3218 > > (469) 337-8637 mobile > > kristopher.mega...@magnablend.com > > ** ** > > *From:* swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] *On Behalf > Of *wilsons > *Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 PM > *To:* Stephen Fleming; Peter Jones > *Cc:* Robert Foster; Evelyn Townsend; Bill Godby; John Collins; Don > Martin; John Moses; Lee Wilson; Justin Peinado; Mailing List for SWR; Larry > Foreman; Margaret Wilson; Jeff Bach; Luke Peerman; Stephanie Regan; Hadley > Robinson; Kate Bach; Robert Wood; Lawrence Foreman; Hank Boudinot; Cordie > Ross; Mike Bilbo; Bob Rodgers; Scott Anderson; Jeff Lory; David Winnett; > Ashley Smith; Michael McWhirter; Grady Viramontes; Jackie Horton; Arvel > Thomas; Dave Gose; Mike Bilbo; Kenny Stabinsky > *Subject:* Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - > strategies needed > > ** ** > > I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new. > > > ** ** > > Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their > demands for complete closure to everyone? > > Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another > conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we > thought we were). > > ** ** > > Karl > > ** ** >-- > > *From:* Stephen Fleming > *To:* Peter Jones > *Cc:* Mike Bilbo ; Kathy Peerman < > speleob...@comcast.net>; Karl Wilson ; Mike > Lorimer ; Hank Boudinot ; Mike > Dimatteo ; Bob Rodgers ; > Stephanie Regan ; Justin Peinado ; > David Winnett ; Evelyn Townsend < > karstpat...@gmail.com>; Wayne Walker ; Robert Wood < > robw...@wwdb.org>; Jackie Horton ; Jeff Bach < > jbac...@comcast.net>; Dave Gose ; John Collins < > elpasoca...@yahoo.com>; Luke Peerman ; Scott > Anderson ; Ashley Smith ; > Mike Bilbo ; Kenny Stabinsky ; > Lee Wilson ; Kate Bach ; > Robert Foster ; Margaret Wilson < > margaretwilso...@gmail.com>; Lee Stevens ; Allen > Wright ; Grady Viramontes ; > Cordie Ross ; Gary Grogg ; > Don Martin ; Steve Peerman ; > Andy Eby ; Hadley Robinson ; Janice > Tucker ; Jeff Lory ; Lawrence > Foreman ; Arvel Thomas < > abthomi...@comcast.net>; John Moses ; Larry Foreman > ; Bill Godby ; Michael McWhirter > ; Mailing List for SWR > *Sent:* Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM > *Subject:* Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - > strategies needed > > > On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: > > It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of > the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and > other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind > on the issue directly to congress people. > > Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than > signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" > reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. > > > Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist > came in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid > that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and > addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over > the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! > > Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or > recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live > statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. > > While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, > most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it > also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is > easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an > ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that > performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. > Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a > better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. > If yo
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Acronyms can be a bit of a mystery unless you follow the trail. CBD = Center for Biological Diversity. Their job is to save endangered or threatened species and, therefore, bats with white nose syndrome. Linda Starr On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Kristopher Megahan < kristopher.mega...@magnablend.com> wrote: > What is the CBD? > > ** ** > > *Kristopher D. Megahan* > > Technical Director > > Magnablend, Inc. > > (972) 938-2028 ext. 3218 > > (469) 337-8637 mobile > > kristopher.mega...@magnablend.com > > ** ** > > *From:* swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] *On Behalf > Of *wilsons > *Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 PM > *To:* Stephen Fleming; Peter Jones > *Cc:* Robert Foster; Evelyn Townsend; Bill Godby; John Collins; Don > Martin; John Moses; Lee Wilson; Justin Peinado; Mailing List for SWR; Larry > Foreman; Margaret Wilson; Jeff Bach; Luke Peerman; Stephanie Regan; Hadley > Robinson; Kate Bach; Robert Wood; Lawrence Foreman; Hank Boudinot; Cordie > Ross; Mike Bilbo; Bob Rodgers; Scott Anderson; Jeff Lory; David Winnett; > Ashley Smith; Michael McWhirter; Grady Viramontes; Jackie Horton; Arvel > Thomas; Dave Gose; Mike Bilbo; Kenny Stabinsky > *Subject:* Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - > strategies needed > > ** ** > > I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new. > > > ** ** > > Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their > demands for complete closure to everyone? > > Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another > conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we > thought we were). > > ** ** > > Karl > > ** ** >-- > > *From:* Stephen Fleming > *To:* Peter Jones > *Cc:* Mike Bilbo ; Kathy Peerman < > speleob...@comcast.net>; Karl Wilson ; Mike > Lorimer ; Hank Boudinot ; Mike > Dimatteo ; Bob Rodgers ; > Stephanie Regan ; Justin Peinado ; > David Winnett ; Evelyn Townsend < > karstpat...@gmail.com>; Wayne Walker ; Robert Wood < > robw...@wwdb.org>; Jackie Horton ; Jeff Bach < > jbac...@comcast.net>; Dave Gose ; John Collins < > elpasoca...@yahoo.com>; Luke Peerman ; Scott > Anderson ; Ashley Smith ; > Mike Bilbo ; Kenny Stabinsky ; > Lee Wilson ; Kate Bach ; > Robert Foster ; Margaret Wilson < > margaretwilso...@gmail.com>; Lee Stevens ; Allen > Wright ; Grady Viramontes ; > Cordie Ross ; Gary Grogg ; > Don Martin ; Steve Peerman ; > Andy Eby ; Hadley Robinson ; Janice > Tucker ; Jeff Lory ; Lawrence > Foreman ; Arvel Thomas < > abthomi...@comcast.net>; John Moses ; Larry Foreman > ; Bill Godby ; Michael McWhirter > ; Mailing List for SWR > *Sent:* Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM > *Subject:* Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - > strategies needed > > > On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: > > It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of > the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and > other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind > on the issue directly to congress people. > > Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than > signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" > reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. > > > Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist > came in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid > that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and > addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over > the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! > > Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or > recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live > statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. > > While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, > most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it > also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is > easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an > ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that > performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. > Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a > better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. > If yo
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Acronyms can be a bit of a mystery unless you follow the trail. CBD = Center for Biological Diversity. Their job is to save endangered or threatened species and, therefore, bats with white nose syndrome. Linda Starr On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Kristopher Megahan < kristopher.mega...@magnablend.com> wrote: > What is the CBD? > > ** ** > > *Kristopher D. Megahan* > > Technical Director > > Magnablend, Inc. > > (972) 938-2028 ext. 3218 > > (469) 337-8637 mobile > > kristopher.mega...@magnablend.com > > ** ** > > *From:* swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] *On Behalf > Of *wilsons > *Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 PM > *To:* Stephen Fleming; Peter Jones > *Cc:* Robert Foster; Evelyn Townsend; Bill Godby; John Collins; Don > Martin; John Moses; Lee Wilson; Justin Peinado; Mailing List for SWR; Larry > Foreman; Margaret Wilson; Jeff Bach; Luke Peerman; Stephanie Regan; Hadley > Robinson; Kate Bach; Robert Wood; Lawrence Foreman; Hank Boudinot; Cordie > Ross; Mike Bilbo; Bob Rodgers; Scott Anderson; Jeff Lory; David Winnett; > Ashley Smith; Michael McWhirter; Grady Viramontes; Jackie Horton; Arvel > Thomas; Dave Gose; Mike Bilbo; Kenny Stabinsky > *Subject:* Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - > strategies needed > > ** ** > > I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new. > > > ** ** > > Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their > demands for complete closure to everyone? > > Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another > conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we > thought we were). > > ** ** > > Karl > > ** ** >-- > > *From:* Stephen Fleming > *To:* Peter Jones > *Cc:* Mike Bilbo ; Kathy Peerman < > speleob...@comcast.net>; Karl Wilson ; Mike > Lorimer ; Hank Boudinot ; Mike > Dimatteo ; Bob Rodgers ; > Stephanie Regan ; Justin Peinado ; > David Winnett ; Evelyn Townsend < > karstpat...@gmail.com>; Wayne Walker ; Robert Wood < > robw...@wwdb.org>; Jackie Horton ; Jeff Bach < > jbac...@comcast.net>; Dave Gose ; John Collins < > elpasoca...@yahoo.com>; Luke Peerman ; Scott > Anderson ; Ashley Smith ; > Mike Bilbo ; Kenny Stabinsky ; > Lee Wilson ; Kate Bach ; > Robert Foster ; Margaret Wilson < > margaretwilso...@gmail.com>; Lee Stevens ; Allen > Wright ; Grady Viramontes ; > Cordie Ross ; Gary Grogg ; > Don Martin ; Steve Peerman ; > Andy Eby ; Hadley Robinson ; Janice > Tucker ; Jeff Lory ; Lawrence > Foreman ; Arvel Thomas < > abthomi...@comcast.net>; John Moses ; Larry Foreman > ; Bill Godby ; Michael McWhirter > ; Mailing List for SWR > *Sent:* Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM > *Subject:* Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - > strategies needed > > > On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: > > It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of > the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and > other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind > on the issue directly to congress people. > > Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than > signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" > reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. > > > Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist > came in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid > that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and > addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over > the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! > > Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or > recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live > statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. > > While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, > most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it > also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is > easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an > ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that > performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. > Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a > better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. > If yo
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
What is the CBD? Kristopher D. Megahan Technical Director Magnablend, Inc. (972) 938-2028 ext. 3218 (469) 337-8637 mobile kristopher.mega...@magnablend.com From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of wilsons Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 PM To: Stephen Fleming; Peter Jones Cc: Robert Foster; Evelyn Townsend; Bill Godby; John Collins; Don Martin; John Moses; Lee Wilson; Justin Peinado; Mailing List for SWR; Larry Foreman; Margaret Wilson; Jeff Bach; Luke Peerman; Stephanie Regan; Hadley Robinson; Kate Bach; Robert Wood; Lawrence Foreman; Hank Boudinot; Cordie Ross; Mike Bilbo; Bob Rodgers; Scott Anderson; Jeff Lory; David Winnett; Ashley Smith; Michael McWhirter; Grady Viramontes; Jackie Horton; Arvel Thomas; Dave Gose; Mike Bilbo; Kenny Stabinsky Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new. Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their demands for complete closure to everyone? Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we thought we were). Karl From: Stephen Fleming mailto:casto...@gmail.com>> To: Peter Jones mailto:pjca...@gwi.net>> Cc: Mike Bilbo mailto:mbbi...@yahoo.com>>; Kathy Peerman mailto:speleob...@comcast.net>>; Karl Wilson mailto:wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com>>; Mike Lorimer mailto:mi...@fastwave.biz>>; Hank Boudinot mailto:grnpacav...@gmail.com>>; Mike Dimatteo mailto:mike_dimat...@comcast.net>>; Bob Rodgers mailto:motoca...@gmail.com>>; Stephanie Regan mailto:regan...@nmsu.edu>>; Justin Peinado mailto:tu...@sbcglobal.net>>; David Winnett mailto:david.winn...@yahoo.com>>; Evelyn Townsend mailto:karstpat...@gmail.com>>; Wayne Walker mailto:wcwal...@zianet.com>>; Robert Wood mailto:robw...@wwdb.org>>; Jackie Horton mailto:rambe...@zianet.com>>; Jeff Bach mailto:jbac...@comcast.net>>; Dave Gose mailto:oldgru...@msn.com>>; John Collins mailto:elpasoca...@yahoo.com>>; Luke Peerman mailto:lpeer...@lcsun-news.com>>; Scott Anderson mailto:scottanderso...@yahoo.com>>; Ashley Smith mailto:sarcave...@gmail.com>>; Mike Bilbo mailto:mike_bi...@blm.gov>>; Kenny Stabinsky mailto:nmba...@zianet.com>>; Lee Wilson mailto:lee.t.wil...@gmail.com>>; Kate Bach mailto:katert...@comcast.net>>; Robert Foster mailto:rfos...@nmsu.edu>>; Margaret Wilson mailto:margaretwilso...@gmail.com>>; Lee Stevens mailto:sldstev...@msn.com>>; Allen Wright mailto:siz...@hotmail.com>>; Grady Viramontes mailto:gra...@comcast.net>>; Cordie Ross mailto:cor...@alum.dartmouth.org>>; Gary Grogg mailto:gggr...@hotmail.com>>; Don Martin mailto:dmartin...@gmail.com>>; Steve Peerman mailto:gypca...@comcast.net>>; Andy Eby mailto:kver...@aol.com>>; Hadley Robinson mailto:hadl...@htg.net>>; Janice Tucker mailto:janice.tuc...@live.com>>; Jeff Lory mailto:jkl...@yahoo.com>>; Lawrence Foreman mailto:lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com>>; Arvel Thomas mailto:abthomi...@comcast.net>>; John Moses mailto:johnmo...@excite.com>>; Larry Foreman mailto:forema...@saic.com>>; Bill Godby mailto:billgo...@gmail.com>>; Michael McWhirter mailto:mikelis...@msn.com>>; Mailing List for SWR mailto:s...@caver.net>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: > It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the > only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other > cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the > issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. > Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came > in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I > was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my > grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of > trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that s
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
What is the CBD? Kristopher D. Megahan Technical Director Magnablend, Inc. (972) 938-2028 ext. 3218 (469) 337-8637 mobile kristopher.mega...@magnablend.com From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of wilsons Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 PM To: Stephen Fleming; Peter Jones Cc: Robert Foster; Evelyn Townsend; Bill Godby; John Collins; Don Martin; John Moses; Lee Wilson; Justin Peinado; Mailing List for SWR; Larry Foreman; Margaret Wilson; Jeff Bach; Luke Peerman; Stephanie Regan; Hadley Robinson; Kate Bach; Robert Wood; Lawrence Foreman; Hank Boudinot; Cordie Ross; Mike Bilbo; Bob Rodgers; Scott Anderson; Jeff Lory; David Winnett; Ashley Smith; Michael McWhirter; Grady Viramontes; Jackie Horton; Arvel Thomas; Dave Gose; Mike Bilbo; Kenny Stabinsky Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new. Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their demands for complete closure to everyone? Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we thought we were). Karl From: Stephen Fleming mailto:casto...@gmail.com>> To: Peter Jones mailto:pjca...@gwi.net>> Cc: Mike Bilbo mailto:mbbi...@yahoo.com>>; Kathy Peerman mailto:speleob...@comcast.net>>; Karl Wilson mailto:wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com>>; Mike Lorimer mailto:mi...@fastwave.biz>>; Hank Boudinot mailto:grnpacav...@gmail.com>>; Mike Dimatteo mailto:mike_dimat...@comcast.net>>; Bob Rodgers mailto:motoca...@gmail.com>>; Stephanie Regan mailto:regan...@nmsu.edu>>; Justin Peinado mailto:tu...@sbcglobal.net>>; David Winnett mailto:david.winn...@yahoo.com>>; Evelyn Townsend mailto:karstpat...@gmail.com>>; Wayne Walker mailto:wcwal...@zianet.com>>; Robert Wood mailto:robw...@wwdb.org>>; Jackie Horton mailto:rambe...@zianet.com>>; Jeff Bach mailto:jbac...@comcast.net>>; Dave Gose mailto:oldgru...@msn.com>>; John Collins mailto:elpasoca...@yahoo.com>>; Luke Peerman mailto:lpeer...@lcsun-news.com>>; Scott Anderson mailto:scottanderso...@yahoo.com>>; Ashley Smith mailto:sarcave...@gmail.com>>; Mike Bilbo mailto:mike_bi...@blm.gov>>; Kenny Stabinsky mailto:nmba...@zianet.com>>; Lee Wilson mailto:lee.t.wil...@gmail.com>>; Kate Bach mailto:katert...@comcast.net>>; Robert Foster mailto:rfos...@nmsu.edu>>; Margaret Wilson mailto:margaretwilso...@gmail.com>>; Lee Stevens mailto:sldstev...@msn.com>>; Allen Wright mailto:siz...@hotmail.com>>; Grady Viramontes mailto:gra...@comcast.net>>; Cordie Ross mailto:cor...@alum.dartmouth.org>>; Gary Grogg mailto:gggr...@hotmail.com>>; Don Martin mailto:dmartin...@gmail.com>>; Steve Peerman mailto:gypca...@comcast.net>>; Andy Eby mailto:kver...@aol.com>>; Hadley Robinson mailto:hadl...@htg.net>>; Janice Tucker mailto:janice.tuc...@live.com>>; Jeff Lory mailto:jkl...@yahoo.com>>; Lawrence Foreman mailto:lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com>>; Arvel Thomas mailto:abthomi...@comcast.net>>; John Moses mailto:johnmo...@excite.com>>; Larry Foreman mailto:forema...@saic.com>>; Bill Godby mailto:billgo...@gmail.com>>; Michael McWhirter mailto:mikelis...@msn.com>>; Mailing List for SWR mailto:s...@caver.net>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: > It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the > only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other > cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the > issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. > Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came > in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I > was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my > grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of > trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that s
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
What is the CBD? Kristopher D. Megahan Technical Director Magnablend, Inc. (972) 938-2028 ext. 3218 (469) 337-8637 mobile kristopher.mega...@magnablend.com From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of wilsons Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 PM To: Stephen Fleming; Peter Jones Cc: Robert Foster; Evelyn Townsend; Bill Godby; John Collins; Don Martin; John Moses; Lee Wilson; Justin Peinado; Mailing List for SWR; Larry Foreman; Margaret Wilson; Jeff Bach; Luke Peerman; Stephanie Regan; Hadley Robinson; Kate Bach; Robert Wood; Lawrence Foreman; Hank Boudinot; Cordie Ross; Mike Bilbo; Bob Rodgers; Scott Anderson; Jeff Lory; David Winnett; Ashley Smith; Michael McWhirter; Grady Viramontes; Jackie Horton; Arvel Thomas; Dave Gose; Mike Bilbo; Kenny Stabinsky Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new. Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their demands for complete closure to everyone? Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we thought we were). Karl From: Stephen Fleming mailto:casto...@gmail.com>> To: Peter Jones mailto:pjca...@gwi.net>> Cc: Mike Bilbo mailto:mbbi...@yahoo.com>>; Kathy Peerman mailto:speleob...@comcast.net>>; Karl Wilson mailto:wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com>>; Mike Lorimer mailto:mi...@fastwave.biz>>; Hank Boudinot mailto:grnpacav...@gmail.com>>; Mike Dimatteo mailto:mike_dimat...@comcast.net>>; Bob Rodgers mailto:motoca...@gmail.com>>; Stephanie Regan mailto:regan...@nmsu.edu>>; Justin Peinado mailto:tu...@sbcglobal.net>>; David Winnett mailto:david.winn...@yahoo.com>>; Evelyn Townsend mailto:karstpat...@gmail.com>>; Wayne Walker mailto:wcwal...@zianet.com>>; Robert Wood mailto:robw...@wwdb.org>>; Jackie Horton mailto:rambe...@zianet.com>>; Jeff Bach mailto:jbac...@comcast.net>>; Dave Gose mailto:oldgru...@msn.com>>; John Collins mailto:elpasoca...@yahoo.com>>; Luke Peerman mailto:lpeer...@lcsun-news.com>>; Scott Anderson mailto:scottanderso...@yahoo.com>>; Ashley Smith mailto:sarcave...@gmail.com>>; Mike Bilbo mailto:mike_bi...@blm.gov>>; Kenny Stabinsky mailto:nmba...@zianet.com>>; Lee Wilson mailto:lee.t.wil...@gmail.com>>; Kate Bach mailto:katert...@comcast.net>>; Robert Foster mailto:rfos...@nmsu.edu>>; Margaret Wilson mailto:margaretwilso...@gmail.com>>; Lee Stevens mailto:sldstev...@msn.com>>; Allen Wright mailto:siz...@hotmail.com>>; Grady Viramontes mailto:gra...@comcast.net>>; Cordie Ross mailto:cor...@alum.dartmouth.org>>; Gary Grogg mailto:gggr...@hotmail.com>>; Don Martin mailto:dmartin...@gmail.com>>; Steve Peerman mailto:gypca...@comcast.net>>; Andy Eby mailto:kver...@aol.com>>; Hadley Robinson mailto:hadl...@htg.net>>; Janice Tucker mailto:janice.tuc...@live.com>>; Jeff Lory mailto:jkl...@yahoo.com>>; Lawrence Foreman mailto:lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com>>; Arvel Thomas mailto:abthomi...@comcast.net>>; John Moses mailto:johnmo...@excite.com>>; Larry Foreman mailto:forema...@saic.com>>; Bill Godby mailto:billgo...@gmail.com>>; Michael McWhirter mailto:mikelis...@msn.com>>; Mailing List for SWR mailto:s...@caver.net>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: > It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the > only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other > cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the > issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. > Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came > in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I > was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my > grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of > trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that s
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new. Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their demands for complete closure to everyone? Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we thought we were). Karl From: Stephen Fleming To: Peter Jones Cc: Mike Bilbo ; Kathy Peerman ; Karl Wilson ; Mike Lorimer ; Hank Boudinot ; Mike Dimatteo ; Bob Rodgers ; Stephanie Regan ; Justin Peinado ; David Winnett ; Evelyn Townsend ; Wayne Walker ; Robert Wood ; Jackie Horton ; Jeff Bach ; Dave Gose ; John Collins ; Luke Peerman ; Scott Anderson ; Ashley Smith ; Mike Bilbo ; Kenny Stabinsky ; Lee Wilson ; Kate Bach ; Robert Foster ; Margaret Wilson ; Lee Stevens ; Allen Wright ; Grady Viramontes ; Cordie Ross ; Gary Grogg ; Don Martin ; Steve Peerman ; Andy Eby ; Hadley Robinson ; Janice Tucker ; Jeff Lory ; Lawrence Foreman ; Arvel Thomas ; John Moses ; Larry Foreman ; Bill Godby ; Michael McWhirter ; Mailing List for SWR Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: > It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the > only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other > cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the > issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. > Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came > in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I > was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my > grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of > trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of getting the official interested are that much greater. I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3 elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving, and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot more effort than clicking on a petition. And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever assume you won't make progress. Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue (because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented; and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science or good judgment. What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman (or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures. What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the CBD determines "there is some evidence" (as they do with the WNS human vector theory) we may get hit by a meteor an
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new. Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their demands for complete closure to everyone? Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we thought we were). Karl From: Stephen Fleming To: Peter Jones Cc: Mike Bilbo ; Kathy Peerman ; Karl Wilson ; Mike Lorimer ; Hank Boudinot ; Mike Dimatteo ; Bob Rodgers ; Stephanie Regan ; Justin Peinado ; David Winnett ; Evelyn Townsend ; Wayne Walker ; Robert Wood ; Jackie Horton ; Jeff Bach ; Dave Gose ; John Collins ; Luke Peerman ; Scott Anderson ; Ashley Smith ; Mike Bilbo ; Kenny Stabinsky ; Lee Wilson ; Kate Bach ; Robert Foster ; Margaret Wilson ; Lee Stevens ; Allen Wright ; Grady Viramontes ; Cordie Ross ; Gary Grogg ; Don Martin ; Steve Peerman ; Andy Eby ; Hadley Robinson ; Janice Tucker ; Jeff Lory ; Lawrence Foreman ; Arvel Thomas ; John Moses ; Larry Foreman ; Bill Godby ; Michael McWhirter ; Mailing List for SWR Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: > It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the > only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other > cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the > issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. > Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came > in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I > was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my > grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of > trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of getting the official interested are that much greater. I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3 elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving, and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot more effort than clicking on a petition. And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever assume you won't make progress. Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue (because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented; and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science or good judgment. What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman (or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures. What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the CBD determines "there is some evidence" (as they do with the WNS human vector theory) we may get hit by a meteor an
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
I know I have missed much of this discussion and my comments are not new. Has anyone from the caving community actually contacted CBD about their demands for complete closure to everyone? Perhaps this would be an opportunity to reach out and work with another conservation organization and help shape policy from the inside (where we thought we were). Karl From: Stephen Fleming To: Peter Jones Cc: Mike Bilbo ; Kathy Peerman ; Karl Wilson ; Mike Lorimer ; Hank Boudinot ; Mike Dimatteo ; Bob Rodgers ; Stephanie Regan ; Justin Peinado ; David Winnett ; Evelyn Townsend ; Wayne Walker ; Robert Wood ; Jackie Horton ; Jeff Bach ; Dave Gose ; John Collins ; Luke Peerman ; Scott Anderson ; Ashley Smith ; Mike Bilbo ; Kenny Stabinsky ; Lee Wilson ; Kate Bach ; Robert Foster ; Margaret Wilson ; Lee Stevens ; Allen Wright ; Grady Viramontes ; Cordie Ross ; Gary Grogg ; Don Martin ; Steve Peerman ; Andy Eby ; Hadley Robinson ; Janice Tucker ; Jeff Lory ; Lawrence Foreman ; Arvel Thomas ; John Moses ; Larry Foreman ; Bill Godby ; Michael McWhirter ; Mailing List for SWR Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: > It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the > only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other > cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the > issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. > Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came > in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I > was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my > grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of > trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of getting the official interested are that much greater. I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3 elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving, and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot more effort than clicking on a petition. And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever assume you won't make progress. Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue (because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented; and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science or good judgment. What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman (or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures. What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the CBD determines "there is some evidence" (as they do with the WNS human vector theory) we may get hit by a meteor an
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the only person from Maine to even bring it up. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!! There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. Peter On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: > From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt > to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that > happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by > subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea > or nay &c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with > political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to > get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional > Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or > senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's > the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. > > But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and > creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on > these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental > Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - > it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, > CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure > can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be > brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive > allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal > meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. > > So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? > Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to > do. > > Mike > > From: Kath
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the only person from Maine to even bring it up. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!! There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. Peter On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: > From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt > to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that > happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by > subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea > or nay &c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with > political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to > get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional > Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or > senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's > the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. > > But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and > creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on > these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental > Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - > it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, > CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure > can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be > brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive > allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal > meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. > > So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? > Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to > do. > > Mike > > From: Kath
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the only person from Maine to even bring it up. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!! There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. Peter On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: > From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt > to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that > happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by > subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea > or nay &c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with > political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to > get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional > Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or > senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's > the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. > > But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and > creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on > these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental > Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - > it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, > CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure > can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be > brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive > allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal > meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. > > So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? > Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to > do. > > Mike > > From: Kath
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of getting the official interested are that much greater. I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3 elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving, and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot more effort than clicking on a petition. And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever assume you won't make progress. Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue (because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented; and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science or good judgment. What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman (or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures. What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the CBD determines "there is some evidence" (as they do with the WNS human vector theory) we may get hit by a meteor and demands equally arcane and insupportable actions? Heck, cavers can demand this themselves directly from the agencies. Just be prepared for a total brush off as they are more afraid of the CBD than they ever will be of you, and will be loathe to admit they have taken an action to exclude public use of public land on the basis of "no basis". However, it is a good place to start. You have far more influence than likely any of you are aware. Why do you think some issues get attention and others don't? Those that do almost always are driven by local folks getting and staying fired up. Get your data request (those would be FOIA requests folks) rejections in hand and then go see your elected officials or their staffs. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. You never will. But, you can get a lot. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. I know what you are saying, but it also needs saying the CBD is not interested in attacking us (not even the NSS). There's no money in it. Directly contacting the CBD with impassioned pleas, logic or anything else is a waste of time. They do not care what any of us think, nor do they have to. The agencies are a different matter entirely. While they need to be responding to leg
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of getting the official interested are that much greater. I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3 elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving, and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot more effort than clicking on a petition. And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever assume you won't make progress. Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue (because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented; and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science or good judgment. What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman (or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures. What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the CBD determines "there is some evidence" (as they do with the WNS human vector theory) we may get hit by a meteor and demands equally arcane and insupportable actions? Heck, cavers can demand this themselves directly from the agencies. Just be prepared for a total brush off as they are more afraid of the CBD than they ever will be of you, and will be loathe to admit they have taken an action to exclude public use of public land on the basis of "no basis". However, it is a good place to start. You have far more influence than likely any of you are aware. Why do you think some issues get attention and others don't? Those that do almost always are driven by local folks getting and staying fired up. Get your data request (those would be FOIA requests folks) rejections in hand and then go see your elected officials or their staffs. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. You never will. But, you can get a lot. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. I know what you are saying, but it also needs saying the CBD is not interested in attacking us (not even the NSS). There's no money in it. Directly contacting the CBD with impassioned pleas, logic or anything else is a waste of time. They do not care what any of us think, nor do they have to. The agencies are a different matter entirely. While they need to be responding to leg
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
On 04/14/2012 15:26, Peter Jones wrote: It was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue directly to congress people. Very few voters ever do this. I have, and it is way more effective than signing petitions that will be answered with a "thank you for writing" reply, but usually nothing more accomplished. Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in... I think the associate I met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!! Many elected officials now hold town hall meetings as either irregular or recurring events. If they are not pre-structured to preclude live statements, that is a place to ask things you want to know or make a point. While it may be thrilling to walk into the Capitol to see some official, most cannot do that simply due to logistics and economics. And, while it also may be satisfying to speak to the actual official, it usually is easier (both from a time perspective and availability) to cultivate an ongoing relationship with a staffer in a local office. It is the staff that performs the vetting and that has the time to hear more than a sound bite. Furthermore, since the staff come from the local areas, they can have a better insight into issues and the public pulse than the official may have. If you get them interested, your chances of getting the official interested are that much greater. I know. I have wandered the halls of Congress like Peter did, meeting with 3 elected officials. I also have spoken at length with a staffer in Albuquerque and that eventually led to a private meeting with the official when he was in-state on a legislative break. None of this had anything to do with caving, and was almost 20 years ago, but the process is way more effective than sending original or form letters, or signing petitions. However, it does take a lot more effort than clicking on a petition. And just because an official's political orientation may not be to your liking does not mean you shouldn't wade in. Hold your nose if you have to. Do not ever assume you won't make progress. Now, with the WNS stupidity, local knowledge isn't all that much of an issue (because this is an eastern problem, knee-jerked locally), except to get somebody to listen to the facts, look at the pathology-geography, the lack of demonstrable evidence from either researchers or the CBD, and come to the conclusion that the threat is overstated, unproven, and grossly misrepresented; and that reactions by the agencies are based on hysteria and fear, not science or good judgment. What would be the most important blow would be to get a Senator or Congressman (or several) to demand that the agencies produce the scientific proof upon which they have taken the closure actions and instituted the decon procedures. What you want is a requirement for them to show, when the agencies cannot deliver the data that doesn't exist, why they think they can shut off access and require questionable processes on the basis of someone (the CDB) screaming the loudest. Fear-based action is not management. What will they do when the CBD determines "there is some evidence" (as they do with the WNS human vector theory) we may get hit by a meteor and demands equally arcane and insupportable actions? Heck, cavers can demand this themselves directly from the agencies. Just be prepared for a total brush off as they are more afraid of the CBD than they ever will be of you, and will be loathe to admit they have taken an action to exclude public use of public land on the basis of "no basis". However, it is a good place to start. You have far more influence than likely any of you are aware. Why do you think some issues get attention and others don't? Those that do almost always are driven by local folks getting and staying fired up. Get your data request (those would be FOIA requests folks) rejections in hand and then go see your elected officials or their staffs. I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we wished for. You never will. But, you can get a lot. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need to respond to them in kind. I know what you are saying, but it also needs saying the CBD is not interested in attacking us (not even the NSS). There's no money in it. Directly contacting the CBD with impassioned pleas, logic or anything else is a waste of time. They do not care what any of us think, nor do they have to. The agencies are a different matter entirely. While they need to be responding to leg
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Peter, Very well stated! On Apr 14, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Peter Jones wrote: > Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree > with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal > of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP > boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in > Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows > just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some > Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was > Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office > (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It > was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only > actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other > cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the > issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that > someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, > loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example > of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I > met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time > by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still > see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views > about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very > interested as I was likely the only > person from Maine to even bring it up. > > I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything > we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no > damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a > different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or > worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the > disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of > the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human > vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need > to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't > mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own > responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is > terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own > self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human > vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves > is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good > illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that > point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are > closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen > to put it out!! > > There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our > senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, > it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. > > Peter > > > > > On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: > >> From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt >> to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that >> happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by >> subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea >> or nay &c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with >> political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able >> to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your >> Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the >> congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk >> to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. >> >> But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and >> creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on >> these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental >> Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh >> - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative >> administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council >> and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it >> through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - >> CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: >> lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegati
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Peter, Very well stated! On Apr 14, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Peter Jones wrote: > Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree > with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal > of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP > boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in > Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows > just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some > Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was > Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office > (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It > was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only > actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other > cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the > issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that > someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, > loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example > of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I > met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time > by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still > see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views > about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very > interested as I was likely the only > person from Maine to even bring it up. > > I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything > we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no > damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a > different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or > worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the > disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of > the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human > vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need > to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't > mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own > responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is > terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own > self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human > vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves > is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good > illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that > point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are > closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen > to put it out!! > > There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our > senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, > it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. > > Peter > > > > > On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: > >> From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt >> to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that >> happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by >> subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea >> or nay &c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with >> political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able >> to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your >> Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the >> congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk >> to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. >> >> But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and >> creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on >> these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental >> Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh >> - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative >> administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council >> and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it >> through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - >> CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: >> lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegati
Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
Peter, Very well stated! On Apr 14, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Peter Jones wrote: > Mike et al: I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree > with you 100%. Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal > of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP > boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in > Washington, DC. I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows > just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some > Senators and Representatives. The only real Senator I got to see was > Domenici back when he was still in office. I also visited Bingaman's office > (I think that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine. It > was enlightening in many ways. For one thing, I was probably one of the only > actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other > cutthroat scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the > issue directly to congress people. Domenici seemed mildly amused that > someone other than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, > loaded with my own photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example > of what would be lost if the unthinkable occurred. I think the associate I > met with in Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time > by *being a mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her. I can still > see her flared nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views > about saving Lech!! Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very > interested as I was likely the only > person from Maine to even bring it up. > > I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything > we wished for. Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no > damage to known caves. Considering all that, we lucked out. Now we face a > different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or > worse, to save bats. They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the > disease directly at our feet. At least we agree with them that the spread of > the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human > vector. If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need > to respond to them in kind. Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't > mean that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own > responses to their attack. We need to agree that the spread of WNS is > terrible and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own > self-imposed decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human > vector has not been proven anywhere by anybody. Clearly the closing of caves > is more detrimental to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good > illustration) than allowing for controlled visits. If we don't make that > point to them, we will lose out to CBD without a fight. If all caves are > closed to everyone, that's like having a fire and locking out all the firemen > to put it out!! > > There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our > senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing. As you said, Mike, > it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment. > > Peter > > > > > On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote: > >> From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt >> to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that >> happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by >> subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea >> or nay &c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with >> political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able >> to get through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your >> Congressional Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the >> congressperson or senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk >> to you and that's the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. >> >> But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and >> creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on >> these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental >> Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh >> - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative >> administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council >> and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it >> through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - >> CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: >> lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegati
[SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
>From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt >to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that >happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject >and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay >&c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political >connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get >through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional >Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or >senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the >best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to do. Mike From: Kathy Peerman To: Karl Wilson ; Kathy Peerman ; Mike Lorimer ; Hank Boudinot ; Mike Dimatteo ; Bob Rodgers ; Stephanie Regan ; Justin Peinado ; David Winnett ; Evelyn Townsend ; Wayne Walker ; Robert Wood ; Jackie Horton ; Jeff Bach ; Dave Gose ; John Collins ; Luke Peerman ; Scott Anderson ; Ashley Smith ; Mike Bilbo ; Kenny Stabinsky ; Lee Wilson ; Kate Bach ; Robert Foster ; Margaret Wilson ; Lee Stevens ; Allen Wright ; Grady Viramontes ; Cordie Ross ; Gary Grogg ; Don Martin ; Steve Peerman ; Andy Eby ; Hadley Robinson ; Mike Bilbo (home) ; Janice Tucker ; Jeff Lory ; Lawrence Foreman ; Arvel Thomas ; John Moses ; Larry Foreman ; Stephen Fleming ; Bill Godby ; Michael McWhirter ; Mailing List for SWR Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message: From: seileo...@gmail.com > >Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT > >To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, >northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com > >Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net > >Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public > > >Hey, all, > >As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all >public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. >This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when >responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the >bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can >be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever >existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to >conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, >and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this >cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. > >https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F > >Sincerely, >John Dunham > Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
>From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt >to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that >happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject >and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay >&c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political >connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get >through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional >Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or >senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the >best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to do. Mike From: Kathy Peerman To: Karl Wilson ; Kathy Peerman ; Mike Lorimer ; Hank Boudinot ; Mike Dimatteo ; Bob Rodgers ; Stephanie Regan ; Justin Peinado ; David Winnett ; Evelyn Townsend ; Wayne Walker ; Robert Wood ; Jackie Horton ; Jeff Bach ; Dave Gose ; John Collins ; Luke Peerman ; Scott Anderson ; Ashley Smith ; Mike Bilbo ; Kenny Stabinsky ; Lee Wilson ; Kate Bach ; Robert Foster ; Margaret Wilson ; Lee Stevens ; Allen Wright ; Grady Viramontes ; Cordie Ross ; Gary Grogg ; Don Martin ; Steve Peerman ; Andy Eby ; Hadley Robinson ; Mike Bilbo (home) ; Janice Tucker ; Jeff Lory ; Lawrence Foreman ; Arvel Thomas ; John Moses ; Larry Foreman ; Stephen Fleming ; Bill Godby ; Michael McWhirter ; Mailing List for SWR Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message: From: seileo...@gmail.com > >Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT > >To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, >northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com > >Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net > >Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public > > >Hey, all, > >As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all >public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. >This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when >responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the >bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can >be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever >existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to >conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, >and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this >cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. > >https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F > >Sincerely, >John Dunham > Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed
>From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt >to sign - just in case. Personal letters are better but the main thing that >happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by subject >and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea or nay >&c, which could merit discussion. These days, it's people with political >connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to get >through. A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional >Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or >senator will actually be it. But the staffers will talk to you and that's the >best chance - you might end up on the phone in person. But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act. Uh oh - it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure can. It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be brought to bear in some very serious ways. Next - CBD and their supportive allies are doing way more than just a petition: lobbying and personal meetings with congressional delegations. Strategies. So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be? Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it. We got way more work to do. Mike From: Kathy Peerman To: Karl Wilson ; Kathy Peerman ; Mike Lorimer ; Hank Boudinot ; Mike Dimatteo ; Bob Rodgers ; Stephanie Regan ; Justin Peinado ; David Winnett ; Evelyn Townsend ; Wayne Walker ; Robert Wood ; Jackie Horton ; Jeff Bach ; Dave Gose ; John Collins ; Luke Peerman ; Scott Anderson ; Ashley Smith ; Mike Bilbo ; Kenny Stabinsky ; Lee Wilson ; Kate Bach ; Robert Foster ; Margaret Wilson ; Lee Stevens ; Allen Wright ; Grady Viramontes ; Cordie Ross ; Gary Grogg ; Don Martin ; Steve Peerman ; Andy Eby ; Hadley Robinson ; Mike Bilbo (home) ; Janice Tucker ; Jeff Lory ; Lawrence Foreman ; Arvel Thomas ; John Moses ; Larry Foreman ; Stephen Fleming ; Bill Godby ; Michael McWhirter ; Mailing List for SWR Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message: From: seileo...@gmail.com > >Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT > >To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, >northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com > >Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net > >Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public > > >Hey, all, > >As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all >public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. >This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when >responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the >bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can >be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever >existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to >conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, >and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this >cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. > >https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F > >Sincerely, >John Dunham > Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
