Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
As a federal employee, I have to say cavers are not the only publics we have to work with and try to satisfy And to say that we not going to be swayed by logic, reason or evidence that does not conform to their preconceived ideas, is a small-minded way to look at the situation. You could turn that around and say the same about you in this case. Go throw your tantrum in somebody else's yard. You're as bad as those folks who rallied around the rancher in Nevada. From: ken_harring...@hotmail.com To: jmofgu...@gmail.com; pjca...@gwi.net Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 12:28:33 -0600 CC: nmca...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net; derekbris...@comcast.net; dgda...@nyx.net; dbuec...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas Michael, While I whole heartedly agree with what you are saying I also believe strongly that the various agencies don't give a rats ass what cavers think or say. They are not going to be swayed by logic, reason or evidence that does not conform to their preconceived ideas. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 11:58:08 -0600 From: jmofgu...@gmail.com To: pjca...@gwi.net CC: nmca...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net; dgda...@nyx.net; dbuec...@comcast.net; derekbris...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its course as it is spread by major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how humans are a vector even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as for instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats. Although decon is a reasonable precaution to slow the spread of WNS, it relies on the honesty and integrity of the people signing the forms. And for cavers with boots, we can imagine that few want to soak their boots in sufficiently hot water for the requisite period of time. I might suggest (a) that, wherever possible, that sneakers should be used instead of boots, as they are more easily sterilized, and may even be thrown out after visiting an infected cave, and (b) that land management agencies, grottoes, etc., maintain sets of gear that are dedicated to a particular cave or group of caves, within which the chance of transmission by bats is high. If gear and ropes are not moved between caves or cave groups, and clothes are washed in hot water and bleached, then the chance of human transmission might be minimized even if caving in affected areas continued. I would also encourage land management agencies in the SW to follow the analytic example set by the Rocky Mountain Region in the EIS considering WNS, and not the example set by the Southern Region USFS in their proposed closure. The latter lacks transparency, employs a heavy-handed, one-size-fits-all approach, reflects more conjecture than science, and lacks accountability of ideas, data and conclusions. Furthermore, the excessively brief period allowed for comments sends the message that the concern and experience of the caving community counts for little. Michael Queen On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 5:08 AM, Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net wrote: Humans have carried fungal spores across the entire planet and probably into space, so we should also take some responsibility for this catastrophe. Humans have been responsible for a number of serious threats to wildlife. Sometimes inadvertent, and other times purposeful, but I think it’s too early yet to accept responsibility for this one. Humans have taken action, whether or not we’re responsible. I certainly hope we haven’t already spread WNS across the entire universe. Derek Bristol Are there now bats in the space station?? Do they hang head up? If they fly around every time the sun goes down, that means they go through 15.76 sleep/awake cycles per day. That must mean there are also a lot of moths on the space station. Are there astronaut cavers as well? I thought everything they wore in space was hyper-decontaminated before they set foot in the station. Do the bats crap into special vacuum containers? All these questions must be researched and answered!! Peter ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
This is leaving the realm of a discussion on the origin of WNS and jumping into the pile on government agencies because they don't agree with me area. Grow up and go throw your tantrum somewhere else in another country, perhaps, where you can freely criticize a government whose policies you don't agree with. You don't live in your version of paradise where everybody agrees with you. You sound like an eight-year-old. Come on into the adult world where you are not the only person the government has to make happy. Better yet, go to work for a government agency and see if you can do better. Self-centered individuals like certain cavers are not the only people federal employees have to deal with. Welcome to adult reality. I fhink if's time to leave the all agencies who don't do what I want are bad agencies discussion. It's not productive. Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 13:34:18 -0600 From: speleozarkis...@gmail.com To: dgda...@nyx.net; s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas did anyone ever feel accommodated and welcomed by the forest, blm, etc? or am i only the one that felt merely tolerated? I know occasionally there would be research or mapping and times they would use us. but in a lot of areas it was just a nuisance for the authorities (rescuing spelunkers, permits for certain caves, opening gates, closing gates, building gates.) now a simple $20,000 fine keeps us all out. at the risk of sounding like some paranoid libertarian it is fascinating to see how a right, freedom, liberty, privilege however the hell caving in the forest is legally classified... can so quickly and easily become just a memory. sure you can trust the government, just ask an indian On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 8:51 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS dgda...@nyx.net wrote: Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: Early on in discussions of the spread of WNS it was pointed out that Howe Caverns (where WNS was first detected) is only 40 miles from the Port of Albany. An infected bat could very easily have hitched a ride from Europe to the US on a boat and then taken up residence in Howe Caverns. There is no need, or even likelihood, that a human vector was involved (other than running the ship). The CDC has published research showing how bats can be translocated over long distances: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/02-0104.htm, http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/pdfs/02-0104.pdf Too bad the media doesn't point this out instead of mindlessly repeating the possibility that WNS came on a caver's boot. :-( Mark Yes, and it's not just a new observation: Charles Darwin himself wrote that bats had been seen on ships far out at sea. --Donald ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
The NSA will be compiling locations from these emails. Lysol drones will soon arrive to disinfect you all. Remember, Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds - Einstein On May 14, 2014 5:51 AM, Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote: This is leaving the realm of a discussion on the origin of WNS and jumping into the pile on government agencies because they don't agree with me area. Grow up and go throw your tantrum somewhere else in another country, perhaps, where you can freely criticize a government whose policies you don't agree with. You don't live in your version of paradise where everybody agrees with you. You sound like an eight-year-old. Come on into the adult world where you are not the only person the government has to make happy. Better yet, go to work for a government agency and see if you can do better. Self-centered individuals like certain cavers are not the only people federal employees have to deal with. Welcome to adult reality. I fhink if's time to leave the all agencies who don't do what I want are bad agencies discussion. It's not productive. -- Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 13:34:18 -0600 From: speleozarkis...@gmail.com To: dgda...@nyx.net; s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas did anyone ever feel accommodated and welcomed by the forest, blm, etc? or am i only the one that felt merely tolerated? I know occasionally there would be research or mapping and times they would use us. but in a lot of areas it was just a nuisance for the authorities (rescuing spelunkers, permits for certain caves, opening gates, closing gates, building gates.) now a simple $20,000 fine keeps us all out. at the risk of sounding like some paranoid libertarian it is fascinating to see how a right, freedom, liberty, privilege however the hell caving in the forest is legally classified... can so quickly and easily become just a memory. sure you can trust the government, just ask an indian On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 8:51 PM, DONALD G. DAVIS dgda...@nyx.net wrote: Mark Minton mmin...@caver.net wrote: Early on in discussions of the spread of WNS it was pointed out that Howe Caverns (where WNS was first detected) is only 40 miles from the Port of Albany. An infected bat could very easily have hitched a ride from Europe to the US on a boat and then taken up residence in Howe Caverns. There is no need, or even likelihood, that a human vector was involved (other than running the ship). The CDC has published research showing how bats can be translocated over long distances: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/02-0104.htm, http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/pdfs/02-0104.pdf Too bad the media doesn't point this out instead of mindlessly repeating the possibility that WNS came on a caver's boot. :-( Mark Yes, and it's not just a new observation: Charles Darwin himself wrote that bats had been seen on ships far out at sea. --Donald ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
On May 14, 2014, at 3:48 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Maybe so, but this is where the role of the volunteer could step in to assist in cave management, and in fact this is already being done by various volunteer caving groups around the country. Join your local group (NSS, CRF, cave conservation group, whatever) that has a good working relationship with the pertinent government agency and ask, what can I do to help? and you just may get that chance to go caving. Diana This is the mindset that has killed caving. It's no longer believed appropriate by many to just go caving for fun. Now, there must be an approved reason and a promise of a product produced before you are allowed to use a publicly-owned resource. That is wrong. Folks are welcome to engage in such activities, but NOT to the exclusion of those who wish merely to have a recreational experience on public land. Enacting access restrictions based on non-science and whim is not management. Stephen Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but (and I say this as someone who grew up in Washington State, where ~3/4 of the property is owned by the state or federal government or is in a Native American reservation) there has to be SOME kind of management of these lands for the benefit not only of all U.S. citizens, but also for the resource. If you want the resource (in this case, caves and bats) to benefit not just the short-term interest of people that are currently alive and active but also for the future generations, well then there needs to be some sort of management. Heck, I would think that people on this list serve might be just as riled about the impacts of oil and gas drilling on BLM lands, but maybe that's a hornet's nest that's best left undisturbed... Frankly, I've found that the people that seem to stay involved in caving for the longest number of years are the ones that go beyond just caving for fun or recreational caving, and get involved in project caving (restoration, survey, science, etc.). There are caves on private lands available for the recreational cavers. Diana * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biophysics 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214A Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) UT Southwestern Medical Center The future of medicine, today. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
Humans have carried fungal spores across the entire planet and probably into space, so we should also take some responsibility for this catastrophe. Humans have been responsible for a number of serious threats to wildlife. Sometimes inadvertent, and other times purposeful, but I think it’s too early yet to accept responsibility for this one. Humans have taken action, whether or not we’re responsible. I certainly hope we haven’t already spread WNS across the entire universe. Derek Bristol Are there now bats in the space station?? Do they hang head up? If they fly around every time the sun goes down, that means they go through 15.76 sleep/awake cycles per day. That must mean there are also a lot of moths on the space station. Are there astronaut cavers as well? I thought everything they wore in space was hyper-decontaminated before they set foot in the station. Do the bats crap into special vacuum containers? All these questions must be researched and answered!! Peter ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its course as it is spread by major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how *humans are a vector*even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as for instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats. Although decon is a reasonable precaution to slow the spread of WNS, it relies on the honesty and integrity of the people signing the forms. And for cavers with boots, we can imagine that few want to soak their boots in sufficiently hot water for the requisite period of time. I might suggest (a) that, wherever possible, that sneakers should be used instead of boots, as they are more easily sterilized, and may even be thrown out after visiting an infected cave, and (b) that land management agencies, grottoes, etc., maintain sets of gear that are dedicated to a particular cave or group of caves, within which the chance of transmission by bats is high. If gear and ropes are not moved between caves or cave groups, and clothes are washed in hot water and bleached, then the chance of human transmission might be minimized even if caving in affected areas continued. I would also encourage land management agencies in the SW to follow the analytic example set by the Rocky Mountain Region in the EIS considering WNS, and not the example set by the Southern Region USFS in their proposed closure. The latter lacks transparency, employs a heavy-handed, one-size-fits-all approach, reflects more conjecture than science, and lacks accountability of ideas, data and conclusions. Furthermore, the excessively brief period allowed for comments sends the message that the concern and experience of the caving community counts for little. Michael Queen On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 5:08 AM, Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net wrote: Humans have carried fungal spores across the entire planet and probably into space, so we should also take some responsibility for this catastrophe. Humans have been responsible for a number of serious threats to wildlife. Sometimes inadvertent, and other times purposeful, but I think it’s too early yet to accept responsibility for this one. Humans have taken action, whether or not we’re responsible. I certainly hope we haven’t already spread WNS across the entire universe. Derek Bristol Are there now bats in the space station?? Do they hang head up? If they fly around every time the sun goes down, that means they go through 15.76 sleep/awake cycles per day. That must mean there are also a lot of moths on the space station. Are there astronaut cavers as well? I thought everything they wore in space was hyper-decontaminated before they set foot in the station. Do the bats crap into special vacuum containers? All these questions must be researched and answered!! Peter ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
I have pointed this out before, but it bears repeating. Humans _must_ not be a very good vector for transmitting WNS because the NSS Convention was held in Indiana in 2007, the year after WNS appeared in the Northeast. No one was doing decon then, and there were surely cavers from affected areas caving in Indiana during the convention. Nevertheless it took over 2 years before WNS showed up in Indiana, much more in line with patterns of bat migrations and the natural spread of WNS south and west from New England. If humans were a good vector, it would have jumped to Indiana immediately. Mark At 01:58 PM 5/13/2014, michael queen wrote: I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its course as it is spread by major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how humans are a vector even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as for instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
Mark, I have pointed this out before, but it bears repeating. Humans _must_ not be a very good vector for transmitting WNS because the NSS Convention was held in Indiana in 2007, the year after WNS appeared in the Northeast. No one was doing decon then, and there were surely cavers from affected areas caving in Indiana during the convention. Nevertheless it took over 2 years before WNS showed up in Indiana, much more in line with patterns of bat migrations and the natural spread of WNS south and west from New England. If humans were a good vector, it would have jumped to Indiana immediately. Mark Sounds like a very strong argument to me. Lee ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
Yep. But, that is the only huge example I know of. The point has recently been made to me, that if the method of testing for the OK bat gave an error, it is now unclear how accurate any of the data on the spread from those years can be. The rumors of suspicious jumps are now even harder to document accurately. We will never know for sure how that first bat got infected, so I personally think of human spread as possible but unlikely. We know WNS is spread bat-to-bat and bat-to-cave-to-bat. Biologists can collect spores on gear placed in caves. We know cleaning our gear will reduce the possibility of human transmission of this or future cave impacts, and other than donating to the http://www.caves.org/WNS/Rapid_Response.shtml research fund, is about the only feel good thing most cavers can do. (Sorry for the shameless plug.) Though Indiana's bats didn't die immediately after 2007 convention, it could be for regional bat roost reasons not related to whether or not humans brought it there. Though lots of research has been done in the last few years, we still don't really have published proof of how it is spread or why some bats die and some don't. If you go to Convention this year, please decon before and after, and in between. Whatever the local requirements are, the local hibernating bats will appreciate your efforts. No matter how the public interprets the science, agencies still have the right to manage their lands how they see fit. As far as I can find, they have no requirement to ask us for advice. Cavers and agencies have to learn how to respect each other in order to move towards our common goals of saving the bats, saving the caves(for some agencies), and (for even less agencies) considering recreation as a resource. I would like to state politely that I feel this needs to be a two way street of respect and information. Jen. Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 16:37:23 -0400 To: s...@caver.net From: mmin...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas I have pointed this out before, but it bears repeating. Humans _must_ not be a very good vector for transmitting WNS because the NSS Convention was held in Indiana in 2007, the year after WNS appeared in the Northeast. No one was doing decon then, and there were surely cavers from affected areas caving in Indiana during the convention. Nevertheless it took over 2 years before WNS showed up in Indiana, much more in line with patterns of bat migrations and the natural spread of WNS south and west from New England. If humans were a good vector, it would have jumped to Indiana immediately. Mark At 01:58 PM 5/13/2014, michael queen wrote: I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its course as it is spread by major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how humans are a vector even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as for instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
. Regards, Debbie /|\ (^._.^) /|\ Debbie C. Buecher, M.S. Wildlife Biologist/Project Manager Buecher Biological Consulting 7050 E. Katchina Court Tucson, AZ 84715 phone: (520) 722-1287 cell: (520) 822-4726 From: Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net To: Jim Evatt nmca...@comcast.net Cc: List, NM s...@caver.net, DAVIS, DONALD dgda...@nyx.net Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2014 7:49:47 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas WNS itself does not kill the bats. It is in fact a minor irritant, much like a nasal cold, that wakes the bats up in mid-winter during their hibernation and uses up their reserve fats. They fly out of the cave looking for a mid-winter snack and can't find an open diner anywhere to eat at. As such, they essentially die from starvation or freezing to death. I don't know of anyone who died from a cold, as we know it. Sooner or later, we all get over colds. It's a question of whether or not they can survive the remainder of the winter without more nourishment. Peter On May 8, 2014, at 10:41 AM, Jim Evatt wrote: Recent biostudies indicate that the bats in those areas most heavily devastated are somehow enhancing their own imunosystems against WNS, and are surviving despite the spore presence. Seems likely since WNS, or at least a nearly twin sister of it, has been present in Europe for almost 100 years, and while bats have died, not one case of a species going extinnct has been reported. E ^v^ Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas Hi, Donald: Having just spent two weeks photographing throughout Ft Stanton and talking at length with Mike Bilbo about WNS and decon, I doubt seriously that BLM is going to reverse its decision about cave closures. Despite the false reading of the Oklahoma bat, WNS has been steadily marching its way across the country and is now as close as Arkansas. Bilbo pointed out to me that there are a series of caves in northern Texas whose conditions are ideal for WNS to spread through and Ft Stanton is included in that list of caves. Although the spread of WNS through the human vector is all but debunked at this point, it does continue to spread through the bats themselves and the caving community can't do a thing to stop that spread. Unfortunately, the human vector of organizations like the Center for BioDiversity is a bigger threat to the closure of caves than WNS ever considered itself to be…. In some ways, we are lucky to be able to go into caves AT ALL these days due to the scourge of WNS and the hysteria associated with it. It is a very sad situation for the bats and one that we are unable to control as humans. As much a pain in the ass as doing the full scale decon is, it's as much a sign that we care as cavers to help slow down the spread of the disease, whether it is effective or not. Peter On May 7, 2014, at 11:25 AM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote: William Tucker william.tuc...@att.net wrote: I haven't seen anyone discussing this; possibly because the news has not gotten around, yet. I just received this press announcement. May 6, 2014 A service of the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation OKLAHOMA REMOVED FROM LIST OF SUSPECTED BAT FUNGUS AREAS So, as many of us have suspected all along, the Oklahoma WNS report that was used as the trigger to close Ft. Stanton and NM's other BLM caves was a false positive. Several years ago, when Marikay Ramsey (major architect of that closure) was at the SW Technical Regional, I asked her if it could be. She replied that it was not false. I suppose that it's too much to hope that this belated confirmation of its falsity will trigger reopening the caves. --Donald ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
Mark, thanks for the perspective (and you beat me to the comment). Translocation clearly is the most obvious cause when applying Occam's Razor. It makes eminent sense except for folks who have something to gain from keeping the human vector fantasy alive. It's not only the media, it's the agencies and more than a few cavers who mindlessly repeat and/or subscribe to the least likely scenario. However, that same least likely scenario is the _only_ one that provides the ridiculous, unfounded excuse to close wild caves and exclude cavers. Commercial caves, and especially those in national parks, even in the midst of established contamination take no actions affecting tourists that remotely approach the requirements placed upon cavers. In New Mexico, where there is not a shred of evidence that WNS is a threat, BLM closes caves but the NPS does not. Those actions say the issue really is about exerting control over wild caving and maintaining a tourist revenue stream, not science (since the science continues to be totally lacking). Stephen On 05/12/2014 20:41, Mark Minton wrote: Early on in discussions of the spread of WNS it was pointed out that Howe Caverns (where WNS was first detected) is only 40 miles from the Port of Albany. An infected bat could very easily have hitched a ride from Europe to the US on a boat and then taken up residence in Howe Caverns. There is no need, or even likelihood, that a human vector was involved (other than running the ship). The CDC has published research showing how bats can be translocated over long distances: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/02-0104.htm, http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no1/pdfs/02-0104.pdf Too bad the media doesn't point this out instead of mindlessly repeating the possibility that WNS came on a caver's boot. :-( Mark At 08:12 PM 5/12/2014, Peter Jones wrote: I do take some issue with the idea that people are one of the vectors for the spread of the disease, though. If we follow through on your suggestion that 1000's of Europeans came to Howe Caverns and thus brought the spores with them, I would counter that by saying that if it was tourists, then the evidence of the disease would have spread much more quickly to the commercial caves, not to caves in general throughout the northeast at first. People visiting commercial caves are generally not cavers, but rather people with an innate interest in commercialized caves. If they went to Howes, they would likely have visited Luray, Endless, Shenandoah, Natural Bridge and Grand Caverns, just to mention a few. However, the disease did not seem to spread in that manner. It appears to have spread from caves locally, especially in caves that tourists didn't go to. Again, if it were spread by humans, why have we not seen major outbreaks in Carlsbad Caverns, Cave of the Winds, Jewell, Wind Cave, all the caves in California, etc? These are all caves that tourists would likely have visited in addition to simply visiting Howe. Again, that may be an oversimplification of the spread of the disease, but I think it is still a valid point. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
I haven't seen anyone discussing this; possibly because the news has not gotten around, yet. I just received this press announcement. May 6, 2014 A service of the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation OKLAHOMA REMOVED FROM LIST OF SUSPECTED BAT FUNGUS AREAS After re-examining an Oklahoma bat specimen originally tested in 2010, scientists with the U.S. Geological Survey National Wildlife Health Center have dropped Oklahoma from the list of areas where White-Nose Syndrome in bats has been suspected or confirmed. The scientists have also removed the Cave Myotis (Myotis velifer) from the list of bat species that have tested positive for the fungus (Pseudogymnoascus destructans) that has been associated with White-Nose Syndrome, which since 2006 has killed millions of hibernating bats primarily in the eastern United States and Canada. The Oklahoma specimen was collected in a private Woodward County cave in May 2010, and at the time appeared to have the fungus. While original test results were positive for the fungus associated with White-Nose Syndrome, new testing procedures have revealed the bat was not infected with the fungus and did not show characteristic lesions. Five bats tested from that private cave in 2010-11, along with 81 swabs from that cave and surrounding caves taken in 2013-14, failed to show the presence of the fungus. This monitoring will continue in 24 caves across the state. Shortly after the suspected case of White-Nose Syndrome, the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation created the Oklahoma Bat Coordinating Team, composed of at least 20 entities that have direct bat and cave management responsibilities. The team created a communication plan involving scientific cooperators, interested parties, stakeholders and user groups on bat and cave management, bat research and bat diseases in Oklahoma. The team has been active in creating the state's White-Nose Syndrome Response Plan and participating in disease surveillance work in multiple cave systems in Oklahoma. Wildlife Department biologists commended the U.S. Geological Survey National Wildlife Heath Center's continued efforts to ensure accuracy and transparency in diagnostic results. For more information on White-Nose Syndrome, visit whitenosesyndrome.org. For general information about bats including a Bats of Oklahoma Field Guide, visit wildlifedepartment.com. - 30 - News Contacts: Don P. Brown or Micah Holmes (405) 521-4632 Website: www.wildlifedepartment.com E-mail: i...@odwc.state.ok.us This program receives federal assistance from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and thus prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, disability, age, and sex (gender), pursuant to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (as amended), Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, and Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. To request an accommodation or informational material in an alternative format, please contact the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation by calling (405) 521-3855. If you believe you have been discriminated against in any program, activity, or service, please contact U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Wildlife and Sport Fish Restoration Program, Attention: Civil Rights Coordinator for Public Access, 4401 N. Fairfax Drive, Arlington, VA 22203. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
