[Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation. During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what summer vs. winter is. During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it. At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the passages. ;-) So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution in CWAN. Best, Benjamin Schwartz - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Almost right. The CO2 levels and airflow velocities are essentially barometrically driven (not chimney effect which requires substantial elevation differences). In the summer barometric pressure changes are usually small so little air exchange occurs (and CO2 levels can build). In the winter, frequent high pressure systems (cold fronts) cause rapid increases in pressure driving lots of outside air in, dropping CO2 levels by large amounts. The bigger the cave volume the better for this to happen. A low pressure system can do the opposite, drawing out CO2 laden air from the depths of the system. The idea of supersaturated water forming the raft sounds very plausible and fits with the observations. Note that CO2 levels can vary by a factor of 10 or more in only a few hours when pressures are changing, so single observations can be deceiving as to what is going on. As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in continual contact with rock. Joe Sent from my iPhone Joe Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Benjamin Schwartz b...@txstate.edu wrote: While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation. During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what summer vs. winter is. During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it. At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the passages. ;-) So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution in CWAN. Best, Benjamin Schwartz - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Benjamin, Thanks for elaboration at CWAN. I agree with you. The same thing is happening at Honey Creek. As you understand, but for those readers on the list who are less familiar with carbonate geochemistry, it isn't really the airflow per se that is causing the calcite precipitation. The airflow is instead the mechanism of keeping the partial pressure of carbon dioxide in the air below that of the water, allowing the water to degas some of its carbon dioxide and precipitate the calcite rafts. Without airflow to replace the carbon dioxide-rich air with fresher air, the carbon dioxide partial pressures in air and water would effectively equalize so no degassing and thus no calcite precipitation would take place. During my research at CWAN I also saw great rafts form and disappear, especially around my stage recorder stilling well at the dam. I measured atmospheric carbon dioxide monthly in the cave and those who have a copy of my dissertation (apparently still available from the TSS at: http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/publications/tsspubmono.htm) can see a plot of the seasonal changes. Of course I expect Evelynn's data to be far more detailed than mine and I'd love to see her results someday. George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org -Original Message- From: Benjamin Schwartz [mailto:b...@txstate.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 07:51 To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation. During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what summer vs. winter is. During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it. At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the passages. ;-) So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution in CWAN. Best, Benjamin Schwartz - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in continual contact with rock. The soils are where the CO2 is stored; the actual source is plant respiration. It is not the only source of CO2 in cave air. The measured changes in soil that occur when plants become especially active, which have been correlated to changes in caves, show plant respiration is an important factor. How important remains to be better quantified because CO2 in Texas cave air increases not just with plant respiration but as we get into the season where airflow due to barometric changes decreases. Determining how much CO2 is outgassed from the limestone or deeper sources is something I've long wanted to do. I'm glad you're working on it Joe. George - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
I have a fresh Austin chalk cave rock ready to go in a vacuum chamber connected to a mass spec to measure the outgassing, which may give us some data soon. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:25 AM, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in continual contact with rock. The soils are where the CO2 is stored; the actual source is plant respiration. It is not the only source of CO2 in cave air. The measured changes in soil that occur when plants become especially active, which have been correlated to changes in caves, show plant respiration is an important factor. How important remains to be better quantified because CO2 in Texas cave air increases not just with plant respiration but as we get into the season where airflow due to barometric changes decreases. Determining how much CO2 is outgassed from the limestone or deeper sources is something I've long wanted to do. I'm glad you're working on it Joe. George - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
I have been following the calcite sand posts with interest. George, I suspect the soils may be more important than you acknowledge. I think it depends more on residence time and partial pressure (and, of course, plant activity) than thickness of the soils as such. In a related item, I have the PDF of the USGS Wind Cave water report. I can send it if anyone wishes. Now we just need to find the Old Lace to go with all the arsenic. DirtDoc
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Dwight, Actually it was someone else who was downplaying the role of soil and plants on CO2. I’m a fan! George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: dirt...@comcast.net [mailto:dirt...@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 17:07 To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation I have been following the calcite sand posts with interest. George, I suspect the soils may be more important than you acknowledge. I think it depends more on residence time and partial pressure (and, of course, plant activity) than thickness of the soils as such. In a related item, I have the PDF of the USGS Wind Cave water report. I can send it if anyone wishes. Now we just need to find the Old Lace to go with all the arsenic. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Woops! Sorry. So much for a quick read. My comment still stands, however. Dwight - Original Message - From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org To: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:36:10 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation Dwight, Actually it was someone else who was downplaying the role of soil and plants on CO2. I’m a fan! George -
[Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation. During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what summer vs. winter is. During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it. At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the passages. ;-) So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution in CWAN. Best, Benjamin Schwartz - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Almost right. The CO2 levels and airflow velocities are essentially barometrically driven (not chimney effect which requires substantial elevation differences). In the summer barometric pressure changes are usually small so little air exchange occurs (and CO2 levels can build). In the winter, frequent high pressure systems (cold fronts) cause rapid increases in pressure driving lots of outside air in, dropping CO2 levels by large amounts. The bigger the cave volume the better for this to happen. A low pressure system can do the opposite, drawing out CO2 laden air from the depths of the system. The idea of supersaturated water forming the raft sounds very plausible and fits with the observations. Note that CO2 levels can vary by a factor of 10 or more in only a few hours when pressures are changing, so single observations can be deceiving as to what is going on. As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in continual contact with rock. Joe Sent from my iPhone Joe Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Benjamin Schwartz b...@txstate.edu wrote: While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation. During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what summer vs. winter is. During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it. At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the passages. ;-) So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution in CWAN. Best, Benjamin Schwartz - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Benjamin, Thanks for elaboration at CWAN. I agree with you. The same thing is happening at Honey Creek. As you understand, but for those readers on the list who are less familiar with carbonate geochemistry, it isn't really the airflow per se that is causing the calcite precipitation. The airflow is instead the mechanism of keeping the partial pressure of carbon dioxide in the air below that of the water, allowing the water to degas some of its carbon dioxide and precipitate the calcite rafts. Without airflow to replace the carbon dioxide-rich air with fresher air, the carbon dioxide partial pressures in air and water would effectively equalize so no degassing and thus no calcite precipitation would take place. During my research at CWAN I also saw great rafts form and disappear, especially around my stage recorder stilling well at the dam. I measured atmospheric carbon dioxide monthly in the cave and those who have a copy of my dissertation (apparently still available from the TSS at: http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/publications/tsspubmono.htm) can see a plot of the seasonal changes. Of course I expect Evelynn's data to be far more detailed than mine and I'd love to see her results someday. George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org -Original Message- From: Benjamin Schwartz [mailto:b...@txstate.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 07:51 To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation. During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what summer vs. winter is. During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it. At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the passages. ;-) So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution in CWAN. Best, Benjamin Schwartz - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
I have a fresh Austin chalk cave rock ready to go in a vacuum chamber connected to a mass spec to measure the outgassing, which may give us some data soon. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:25 AM, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in continual contact with rock. The soils are where the CO2 is stored; the actual source is plant respiration. It is not the only source of CO2 in cave air. The measured changes in soil that occur when plants become especially active, which have been correlated to changes in caves, show plant respiration is an important factor. How important remains to be better quantified because CO2 in Texas cave air increases not just with plant respiration but as we get into the season where airflow due to barometric changes decreases. Determining how much CO2 is outgassed from the limestone or deeper sources is something I've long wanted to do. I'm glad you're working on it Joe. George - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
I have been following the calcite sand posts with interest. George, I suspect the soils may be more important than you acknowledge. I think it depends more on residence time and partial pressure (and, of course, plant activity) than thickness of the soils as such. In a related item, I have the PDF of the USGS Wind Cave water report. I can send it if anyone wishes. Now we just need to find the Old Lace to go with all the arsenic. DirtDoc
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Dwight, Actually it was someone else who was downplaying the role of soil and plants on CO2. I’m a fan! George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: dirt...@comcast.net [mailto:dirt...@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 17:07 To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation I have been following the calcite sand posts with interest. George, I suspect the soils may be more important than you acknowledge. I think it depends more on residence time and partial pressure (and, of course, plant activity) than thickness of the soils as such. In a related item, I have the PDF of the USGS Wind Cave water report. I can send it if anyone wishes. Now we just need to find the Old Lace to go with all the arsenic. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Woops! Sorry. So much for a quick read. My comment still stands, however. Dwight - Original Message - From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org To: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:36:10 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation Dwight, Actually it was someone else who was downplaying the role of soil and plants on CO2. I’m a fan! George -
[Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation. During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what summer vs. winter is. During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it. At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the passages. ;-) So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution in CWAN. Best, Benjamin Schwartz - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Almost right. The CO2 levels and airflow velocities are essentially barometrically driven (not chimney effect which requires substantial elevation differences). In the summer barometric pressure changes are usually small so little air exchange occurs (and CO2 levels can build). In the winter, frequent high pressure systems (cold fronts) cause rapid increases in pressure driving lots of outside air in, dropping CO2 levels by large amounts. The bigger the cave volume the better for this to happen. A low pressure system can do the opposite, drawing out CO2 laden air from the depths of the system. The idea of supersaturated water forming the raft sounds very plausible and fits with the observations. Note that CO2 levels can vary by a factor of 10 or more in only a few hours when pressures are changing, so single observations can be deceiving as to what is going on. As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in continual contact with rock. Joe Sent from my iPhone Joe Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Benjamin Schwartz b...@txstate.edu wrote: While temperature, moisture content, and seasonality probably do have some effects on raft deposition in the stream passage, and certainly effect CO2 generation in the soil horizon, my observations in CWAN are that these effects on the surface are actually driving airflow changes in the cave, which is the main engine driving the raft precipitation. During the warm months in CWAN, no rafts form, and previously formed and/or sunken rafts (after going over a rimstone dam, or under a drip site, for example) will re-dissolve and disappear. This is because airflow slows down during the hot months and is coming in from many of the (relatively) higher, small, and peripheral fissure and fracture 'entrances' to the system, as well as through the shallow soils, all of which will have a lot higher than atmospheric CO2. This causes generally higher concentrations of CO2 in the cave atmosphere, and relatively equilibrium conditions. I'm not sure what the actual concentrations are in CWAN, but the air is definitely a lot less 'fresh' in the summer. Evelynn Mitchell has some CO2 data for the tourist part of the cave, so perhaps she can give us some relative idea of what summer vs. winter is. During the winter, this chimney-effect airflow reverses and strong airflow is pulling cool, low-CO2 atmospheric air in from the main entrance and transporting it across the (now super-saturated with respect to the cave air) water in the stream. As the air moves upstream, CO2 de-gasses and calcite rafts will precipitate in just a few hours. We've sunk them going upstream and found them reformed on the way back downstream. At the bottom of rimstone dams and at our gaging weir, we sometimes see large spectacular drifts of snow white sunken rafts - but these all go away in the summer or after a large storm event. I can send a picture of our weir with beautiful raft drifts below it, if anyone would like to see it. At any time of year, the far upstream reaches of the cave, where there is little airflow, rarely have any rafts at all. The rafts (and rimstone dams) pretty much stop when you pass the points where the main airflow leaves. And those shall remain unattractive, gnarly, low-air secrets until we map the passages. ;-) So, while I can't say this is what is happening in Honey Creek, I am very confident this is what is driving calcite raft precipitation and dissolution in CWAN. Best, Benjamin Schwartz - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in continual contact with rock. The soils are where the CO2 is stored; the actual source is plant respiration. It is not the only source of CO2 in cave air. The measured changes in soil that occur when plants become especially active, which have been correlated to changes in caves, show plant respiration is an important factor. How important remains to be better quantified because CO2 in Texas cave air increases not just with plant respiration but as we get into the season where airflow due to barometric changes decreases. Determining how much CO2 is outgassed from the limestone or deeper sources is something I've long wanted to do. I'm glad you're working on it Joe. George - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
I have a fresh Austin chalk cave rock ready to go in a vacuum chamber connected to a mass spec to measure the outgassing, which may give us some data soon. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2012, at 10:25 AM, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: As for the origin of the CO2, I think that is still an open question. I'm not so sure about soils since there isn't much in central Texas. In small caves it could be organics. But in larger caves, I tend to favor out gassing from the limestone as it is dissolved by water - especially in caves that are connected to an underlying aquifer such as the Edwards where there is lots of water in continual contact with rock. The soils are where the CO2 is stored; the actual source is plant respiration. It is not the only source of CO2 in cave air. The measured changes in soil that occur when plants become especially active, which have been correlated to changes in caves, show plant respiration is an important factor. How important remains to be better quantified because CO2 in Texas cave air increases not just with plant respiration but as we get into the season where airflow due to barometric changes decreases. Determining how much CO2 is outgassed from the limestone or deeper sources is something I've long wanted to do. I'm glad you're working on it Joe. George - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
I have been following the calcite sand posts with interest. George, I suspect the soils may be more important than you acknowledge. I think it depends more on residence time and partial pressure (and, of course, plant activity) than thickness of the soils as such. In a related item, I have the PDF of the USGS Wind Cave water report. I can send it if anyone wishes. Now we just need to find the Old Lace to go with all the arsenic. DirtDoc
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Dwight, Actually it was someone else who was downplaying the role of soil and plants on CO2. I’m a fan! George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: dirt...@comcast.net [mailto:dirt...@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 17:07 To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation I have been following the calcite sand posts with interest. George, I suspect the soils may be more important than you acknowledge. I think it depends more on residence time and partial pressure (and, of course, plant activity) than thickness of the soils as such. In a related item, I have the PDF of the USGS Wind Cave water report. I can send it if anyone wishes. Now we just need to find the Old Lace to go with all the arsenic. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation
Woops! Sorry. So much for a quick read. My comment still stands, however. Dwight - Original Message - From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org To: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 5:36:10 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek sand observation Dwight, Actually it was someone else who was downplaying the role of soil and plants on CO2. I’m a fan! George -
[Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek
Wow! That's almost the same number of people we had at the Honey Creek 20-year anniversary in 2000! (84 was the official count then, but they didn't all go caving. See Texas Caver 45(5) p. 125-126, Sept./Oct. 2000.) Good show! Mark Minton At 04:21 PM 2/1/2011, Kurt L. Menking wrote: My hats off to Ellie for getting the word out and motivating cavers from all over the state to come out to Honeycreek cave this weekend. Don Brusard and Kitty, and others helped run the tractor to get everyone in and out safely. It was largely a cat hearding exercise Saturday morning, but once everyone was in the cave everything seemed to go smoothly. We had 83 people go caving in Honeycreek Saturday. 83 people signed the log sheet, and 82 people signed out. The one who didn't sign out was hunted down by cell phone and tongue lashed appropriately. We also had at least 3-6 surface people out during the day, so we had very close to 90 folks on the property. I don't know the exact numbers but about 60 folks did through trips. Half went in at the spring, and half went in at the shaft. The groups were staggered and while there were a few bottle necks here and there they were not a big deal. One group did the through trip in 2 hours and 45 minutes. And one of those guys had only one flipper (he was the one setting the blistering pace). Another large group did the trip up the QA to the pretty walking section. And Ed, Mallory, Ellie, and others did the push to the end of the Mile Crawl passage. All in all a great weekend. I'm not sure we had this many people in the cave at TCR. I know lots of photos were taken, so some of you need to send Mark your pics with a trip report. It was an epic weekend. Kurt Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek Cave tank haul trip
Bill, The results were that James and Creature surveyed 1,000 feet of passage and reached another sump. Congratulations on some hard-won passage! Too bad about the next sump. :-( I guess passing that one is beyond the limits of reasonable effort with current technology. Mark Minton - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek Cave tank haul trip
Forgive my ignorance on the costs/logistics, but I am very curious about the cost/benefit of pushing forward. You could return with a cave radio, get a proper reading, and then drill a new well into the current passage beyond the sump, correct? What's the cost of drilling the well? Is that on the order of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars? Then the challenge would be pushing the second sump into whatever untold wonder or third sump exists beyond, correct? ~~Thomas --- On Mon, 6/8/09, Minton, Mark mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote: From: Minton, Mark mmin...@nmhu.edu Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek Cave tank haul trip To: speleoste...@tx.rr.com, Texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 9:09 AM Bill, The results were that James and Creature surveyed 1,000 feet of passage and reached another sump. Congratulations on some hard-won passage! Too bad about the next sump. :-( I guess passing that one is beyond the limits of reasonable effort with current technology. Mark Minton - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek Cave tank haul trip
Thomas Stich said: You could return with a cave radio, get a proper reading, and then drill a new well into the current passage beyond the sump, correct? What's the cost of drilling the well? Is that on the order of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars? Then the challenge would be pushing the second sump into whatever untold wonder or third sump exists beyond, correct? Yes, that could be done, but it would hardly be cost effective unless the new sump could be drained enough to allow non-divers to get through. It would indeed cost thousands of dollars to drill a new shaft, and it would not provide access to going cave for anyone but divers, and even then it would be a gamble that there is not a series of sumps ahead. Unless someone donated the cost of the shaft, I doubt most cavers would think it worthwhile. Mark Minton - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: Honey Creek Cave tank haul trip
I'm reminded of the wisdom of the immortal Cave Carson quoted in Inside Earth #1: A SUMP IS GOD'S WAY OF TELLING YOU THE CAVE ENDS THERE On 6/8/09 6:26 AM, speleoste...@tx.rr.com speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote: Well, we did it. And it may well have been the Last Honey Creek Cave tank haul. Or, at least, I think, the last one I organize. I was among the last three to get out of the cave yesterday, coming out at 9:00 a.m. after a 23 hour trip. Nine hours of that was spent in one place, on a not-so-comfortable rocky mud bank, waiting on the two divers, James Brown and Jean Creature Krejca. I tried to sleep, didn't think I did, but found out later that I snored and people laughed about it, so I must have slept some. I'll write a more detailed report tonight and post it here. I'll also commit to writing a detailed review of the push of the upstream HS sump for an upcoming issue of the Texas Caver. The upstream HS sump project has been ongoing for the past several years. But here's the short version of last weekend's trip. About twenty (I'll have an accurate count with names tonight) cavers went in the shaft entrance of Texas' longest cave Saturday morning. Most had a share of the load for the two cave divers, including four tanks, regulators packed in Pelican cases, BCs, lead weights, fins, wetsuits, a camers, survey gear, and a cave radio graciously loaned to us by Brian Pease of Vermont. It took 5 1/2 hours for us to reach the beginning of the 1,435 foot long sump. It took another three hours for the all the gear to be located in what pack and unpacked, passed through the mud and gloom (in not so great air) to the divers when they called for this or that piece of it, and for them to commence the dive. The results were that James and Creature surveyed 1,000 feet of passage and reached another sump. The cave radio transmission was not successful, in that Kurt Menking, waiting on the surface over that part of the cave in the evening dark, thought they were going to transmit about between 200 - 400 feet upstream from the 1,435 foot long HS sump, but instead they trasmitted from the second sump they reached, 1,000 feet upstream from the HS sump. However, it doesn't really matter, because given that there's another sump, putting in another shaft entrance into the 1,000 feet of passage they reached, won't get us into the going air-filled cave we're hoping to reach. More tonight, Bill Steele Irving, Texas - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek/Airmen's
Mark Minton wrote: Bill Steele once brought a triathlete to Honey Creek on a pretty hard trip. The poor guy had never been caving before, and he never knew what hit him. We would play with him, getting ahead and then waiting. When he showed up huffing and puffing Bill would say, Well, ready to go? He later said he thought he was in shape, but he wasn't so sure after that trip. I don't think he ever went caving again, at least not in Honey Creek, so I guess he thought caving was harder. ;-) (Seriously though, what's harder is a matter of what you're used to. I'd probably die off in a triathlon.) Let me explain. I was in a Rotary Club in San Antonio. The program chairman asked me to give a program on caving. After the program this guy came up, someone I recognized, and introduced himself: The name's Earl Woodell, triathelete. We'll er, commercial real estate broker, but my passion is triathlon. Ive done lots of them. I'm in tiptop shape and I'd like to go caving with you sometime to something you consider very demanding. It just so happened that Mark and I were going to some remote part of Honey Creek soon thereafter. So I outfitted the in the triathelete in the right gear and we took him along. I invited him to go caving some more, but he always had a conflict. Bill - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek/Airmen's
Gregg said: Airmen's is right here in Austin. It supposedly has going leads. But no one seems willing to go back that far to survey. So maybe it is harder than diving Honey Creek. I've worked on the leads at the back of Airmen's and also on some at points along the way. As far as I know there are no open leads. Everything involves digging. There is good air in places, but it is a hell of a long way to go just to dig, which is why few people have bothered. The potential is great, though, and the cave no doubt goes a long way past it's currently known end. Talk to William Russell about where the leads are. I'm sure he'd be glad to tell you. :-) I took a marathon runner to the back once. It took him all trip to determine which was harder, running 28 miles in one shot or going to the back of Airmen's. He decided the marathon was harder. Bill Steele once brought a triathlete to Honey Creek on a pretty hard trip. The poor guy had never been caving before, and he never knew what hit him. We would play with him, getting ahead and then waiting. When he showed up huffing and puffing Bill would say, Well, ready to go? He later said he thought he was in shape, but he wasn't so sure after that trip. I don't think he ever went caving again, at least not in Honey Creek, so I guess he thought caving was harder. ;-) (Seriously though, what's harder is a matter of what you're used to. I'd probably die off in a triathlon.) Tall people hate the one-legged man, too, though I've seen two different 6' 4'' cavers do it. I'm 6'2 and I kind of like the One-Legged Man. But you don't have to do that anymore - we made a bypass years ago. Or did that collapse? Mark Minton
RE: [Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek/Airmen's
I took a weight lifter/runner to a crawl cave once and he was in excellent shape. The crawl wasn't near as long as Airman's either. After the trip, he decided that while he was in fact in great shape he had sore muscles he didn't know he had. He developed an exercise regimen where he did a belly crawl using the tips of his fingers and toes through several rooms in his house. He became a great low crawlway caver and oddly enough the additional exercise helped him with other aspects of his physical activities. Butch From: Minton, Mark [mailto:mmin...@nmhu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:56 AM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek/Airmen's Gregg said: Airmen's is right here in Austin. It supposedly has going leads. But no one seems willing to go back that far to survey. So maybe it is harder than diving Honey Creek. I've worked on the leads at the back of Airmen's and also on some at points along the way. As far as I know there are no open leads. Everything involves digging. There is good air in places, but it is a hell of a long way to go just to dig, which is why few people have bothered. The potential is great, though, and the cave no doubt goes a long way past it's currently known end. Talk to William Russell about where the leads are. I'm sure he'd be glad to tell you. :-) I took a marathon runner to the back once. It took him all trip to determine which was harder, running 28 miles in one shot or going to the back of Airmen's. He decided the marathon was harder. Bill Steele once brought a triathlete to Honey Creek on a pretty hard trip. The poor guy had never been caving before, and he never knew what hit him. We would play with him, getting ahead and then waiting. When he showed up huffing and puffing Bill would say, Well, ready to go? He later said he thought he was in shape, but he wasn't so sure after that trip. I don't think he ever went caving again, at least not in Honey Creek, so I guess he thought caving was harder. ;-) (Seriously though, what's harder is a matter of what you're used to. I'd probably die off in a triathlon.) Tall people hate the one-legged man, too, though I've seen two different 6' 4'' cavers do it. I'm 6'2 and I kind of like the One-Legged Man. But you don't have to do that anymore - we made a bypass years ago. Or did that collapse? Mark Minton
Re: [Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek/Airmen's
I'm 6'2 and I kind of like the One-Legged Man.? But you don't have to do that anymore - we made a bypass years ago.? Or did that collapse? ? Mark Minton Bypass is still there. I'm too short to make it through one legged man without a lot of trouble especially dealing with a pack. puppy =:-) -Original Message- From: Minton, Mark mmin...@nmhu.edu To: texascavers@texascavers.com texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 10:56 am Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Honey Creek/Airmen's ?? Gregg said: ? Airmen's is right here in Austin.? It supposedly has going leads.? But no one seems willing to go back that far to survey.? So maybe it is harder than diving Honey Creek. ? ? I've worked on the leads at the back of Airmen's and also on some at points along the way.? As far as I know there?are no open leads.? Everything involves digging.? There is good air in places, but it is a hell of a long way to go just to dig, which is why few people have bothered.? The potential is great, though, and the cave no doubt goes a long way past it's currently known?end.? Talk to William Russell about where the leads are.? I'm sure he'd be glad to tell you.? :-) ? I took a marathon runner to the back once.? It took him all trip to determine which was harder, running 28 miles in one shot or going to the back of Airmen's.? He decided the marathon was harder. ? ? Bill Steele once brought a triathlete to Honey Creek on a pretty hard trip.? The poor guy had never been caving before, and he never knew what hit him.? We would play with him, getting ahead and then waiting.? When he showed up huffing and puffing Bill would say, Well, ready to go?? He later said he thought he was in shape, but he wasn't so sure after that trip.? I don't think he ever went caving again, at least not in Honey Creek, so I guess he thought caving was harder.? ;-)? (Seriously though, what's harder is a matter of what you're used to.? I'd probably die off in a triathlon.) ? Tall people hate the one-legged man, too, though I've seen two different 6' 4'' cavers do it. ? ? I'm 6'2 and I kind of like the One-Legged Man.? But you don't have to do that anymore - we made a bypass years ago.? Or did that collapse? ? Mark Minton More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp000503
