RE: [Texascavers] Airmen's Cave
I would agree to an extent.. Airman's has been a well known/unknown cave for years. We do not need to gate Airmans as besides the fact the cave is quite extensive and poses a getting lost threat there really is no substantial danger to the would be explorer as long as they heed the basic rules of caving. I noticed while I was in colorado visiting some caves in the Durango area that they had given up on gating most of their caves and resorted to simply posting a sign out front touting the cave softly slogan and a few words about having adequate light sources and notifying others of your exploit in the eventuality that you got trapped or lost. Maybe posting a sign just inside the entrance tunnel could be worth consideration given that anyone googling Airmens cave can find dozens of web sites with location data. Typically the nature of the cave and the ordeal of getting into the cave pretty much precludes everyone but the most adventourous and thin persons. I would agree that we do not need to have directions given out on the 5 o'clock news or on the front page of the Life section in the Statesman. And caves that pose vertical hazards, have biological concern, and/or asthetic value should cetainly have restricted access. Not gating the cave promotes caving more than the alternative. There are no formations to be destroyed with the exception to the farthest reaches to which few ever make the mile long journey to. Most of those turn back at the wire wiggle. I am sure there are hundreds of people out there who have managed to brave the knee pounding endless crawls and escaped to have a great adventure to share with their friends and even go as far as to motivate some to seek out the UT grotto. Personaly I can think of better things to spend my tax dollars on. SS > Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:46:02 -0500> From: sandi-calh...@mail.utexas.edu> > To: carl.kun...@suddenlink.net> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: > [Texascavers] Airmen's Cave> > I second Julie's post. I was also a part of > the August 07 rescue, and would not> want to do it again (although I would if > necessary). I'm sure the youtube clips> were well-intentioned, and I in no > way want to bitch at anyone here, but not> everyone can or should go into a > cave.> > Sandi> > > - Original Message -> > From: Jules Jenkins> > > To: Texas Cavers ; John Brooks> > Cc: joezame...@hotmail.com ; > andyzen...@yahoo.com> > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:14 AM> > Subject: > Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave> >> >> > All,> > I generally wouldn't > respond to this type of email, I'd view it,> > enjoy it, and toss it. > However, for more than a decade a couple of us have> > worked with the city > of Austin to develop a trust relationship, to embody the> > cave community as > a responsible group of individuals who care about the karst> > and protecting > our cave resources. We've worked very diligently to help the> > city feel > comfortable and safe with cavers and their activities. In other> > words, > we've built ourselves into a position as an asset to the city for> > their > caves, we're the unofficial 'eyes and ears on the karst'. The local> > caving > community does lots of outreach, education, and guides lots and lots> > of > cave trips. This relationship which, at best allows cavers a lot of> > > freedom in usage is also very tenuous and problems often have resulted in> > > cavers loosing access, even when it's not been a caver caused problem. I > feel> > compelled to respond to this email posting and hope that by > addressing this> > I don't inflame the caver community but, rather get you > all to think and> > consider the impact of your actions.> >> > Although these > video segments are somewhat factual and somewhat> > amusing, it's posting > video's such as these, providing exact directions and> > encouraging the > internet world at large by providing so much info that it> > threatens the > continued open access to this cave and potentially other Austin> > area caves > owned by the city.> >> > The August 2007 Airmen's search, which one of these > guys states he> > was involved with has still not been resolved and the city > of Austin, who> > owns the cave is still seriously looking at gating the > cave. This sort of> > encouragement and advertisement of the cave will NOT > help the situation.> >> > I can appreciate that with all our technology, gps, > video, digital> > cameras, inter
Re: [Texascavers] Airmen's Cave
I second Julie's post. I was also a part of the August 07 rescue, and would not want to do it again (although I would if necessary). I'm sure the youtube clips were well-intentioned, and I in no way want to bitch at anyone here, but not everyone can or should go into a cave. Sandi > - Original Message - > From: Jules Jenkins > To: Texas Cavers ; John Brooks > Cc: joezame...@hotmail.com ; andyzen...@yahoo.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave > > > All, > I generally wouldn't respond to this type of email, I'd view it, > enjoy it, and toss it. However, for more than a decade a couple of us have > worked with the city of Austin to develop a trust relationship, to embody the > cave community as a responsible group of individuals who care about the karst > and protecting our cave resources. We've worked very diligently to help the > city feel comfortable and safe with cavers and their activities. In other > words, we've built ourselves into a position as an asset to the city for > their caves, we're the unofficial 'eyes and ears on the karst'. The local > caving community does lots of outreach, education, and guides lots and lots > of cave trips. This relationship which, at best allows cavers a lot of > freedom in usage is also very tenuous and problems often have resulted in > cavers loosing access, even when it's not been a caver caused problem. I feel > compelled to respond to this email posting and hope that by addressing this > I don't inflame the caver community but, rather get you all to think and > consider the impact of your actions. > > Although these video segments are somewhat factual and somewhat > amusing, it's posting video's such as these, providing exact directions and > encouraging the internet world at large by providing so much info that it > threatens the continued open access to this cave and potentially other Austin > area caves owned by the city. > > The August 2007 Airmen's search, which one of these guys states he > was involved with has still not been resolved and the city of Austin, who > owns the cave is still seriously looking at gating the cave. This sort of > encouragement and advertisement of the cave will NOT help the situation. > > I can appreciate that with all our technology, gps, video, digital > cameras, internet etc. that it's tough to maintain the caver 'ethic' of NOT > giving out locations but, if we as the caving community do not continue this > practice we will very likely loose access to this cave and perhaps if we're > not more cautious and responsible for our actions we could loose access to > the other caves in Austin that cavers currently have access to. > > Having been called out by the fire dept. on the August search for the > UT students, I don't recall these guys at all being involved but, then I was > busy locating the students. What I learned from the experience and can share > w/the entire caving community is that the city has huge very real concerns > over location information going out to the internet and this kind of > information as well as videos on utube, links being sent out w/photos from > trips that were taken to caves that are only open for scientific research > access. This puts our caving community in a very tenuous position with the > city decision makers. We stand to loose our access privprivilegesause this > kind of widespread and specific information increases the potential for > unprepared individuals to attempt to do the cave trip, likely resulting in > other 'rescues' or 'searches', which translates to problems, lots of $$'s on > the part of the city, lots of outcry from the tax paying public, and > potential life threatening danger to the non prepared cave visitor. > > Whether you all live in Austin or not, every incident right, wrong, > or indifferent reflects on the Austin caving community. If we're shut out, > and ALL the caves gated, access denied, then we all loose. It may not make a > difference to non Austin cavers but, it does make a difference to the Austin > caving community. > > I've just been contacted again by the city to meet to look at the > problems and issues that have arisen regarding 'rescues', the cost the > Austin's citizens (nearly 20K for this last incident with UT students) and > the potential liability for the city, and it's going to be very difficult to > emploimplorecity to leave Airmen's open, and to allow cavers continued access > when cavers continue to publicize locations, names, and techniques. And > believe me, they will have already seen this email link before we meet at the > end of the week, you see they're on cavetex, too.!! > > This is a plea to the caving community to discontinue publicizing by > whatever method directions, locations, how-to's, and commentary about caves > in general but, more specifically Austin caves. Y'all are killin' u
Re: [Texascavers] Airmen's Cave
Julie, thanks for sharing those very well-considered thoughts. You are absolutely correct. Often, it is tempting to share a little too much information beyond the appropriate venue. ===Carl Kunath - Original Message - From: Jules Jenkins To: Texas Cavers ; John Brooks Cc: joezame...@hotmail.com ; andyzen...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: Airmen's Cave All, I generally wouldn't respond to this type of email, I'd view it, enjoy it, and toss it. However, for more than a decade a couple of us have worked with the city of Austin to develop a trust relationship, to embody the cave community as a responsible group of individuals who care about the karst and protecting our cave resources. We've worked very diligently to help the city feel comfortable and safe with cavers and their activities. In other words, we've built ourselves into a position as an asset to the city for their caves, we're the unofficial 'eyes and ears on the karst'. The local caving community does lots of outreach, education, and guides lots and lots of cave trips. This relationship which, at best allows cavers a lot of freedom in usage is also very tenuous and problems often have resulted in cavers loosing access, even when it's not been a caver caused problem. I feel compelled to respond to this email posting and hope that by addressing this I don't inflame the caver community but, rather get you all to think and consider the impact of your actions. Although these video segments are somewhat factual and somewhat amusing, it's posting video's such as these, providing exact directions and encouraging the internet world at large by providing so much info that it threatens the continued open access to this cave and potentially other Austin area caves owned by the city. The August 2007 Airmen's search, which one of these guys states he was involved with has still not been resolved and the city of Austin, who owns the cave is still seriously looking at gating the cave. This sort of encouragement and advertisement of the cave will NOT help the situation. I can appreciate that with all our technology, gps, video, digital cameras, internet etc. that it's tough to maintain the caver 'ethic' of NOT giving out locations but, if we as the caving community do not continue this practice we will very likely loose access to this cave and perhaps if we're not more cautious and responsible for our actions we could loose access to the other caves in Austin that cavers currently have access to. Having been called out by the fire dept. on the August search for the UT students, I don't recall these guys at all being involved but, then I was busy locating the students. What I learned from the experience and can share w/the entire caving community is that the city has huge very real concerns over location information going out to the internet and this kind of information as well as videos on utube, links being sent out w/photos from trips that were taken to caves that are only open for scientific research access. This puts our caving community in a very tenuous position with the city decision makers. We stand to loose our access privprivilegesause this kind of widespread and specific information increases the potential for unprepared individuals to attempt to do the cave trip, likely resulting in other 'rescues' or 'searches', which translates to problems, lots of $$'s on the part of the city, lots of outcry from the tax paying public, and potential life threatening danger to the non prepared cave visitor. Whether you all live in Austin or not, every incident right, wrong, or indifferent reflects on the Austin caving community. If we're shut out, and ALL the caves gated, access denied, then we all loose. It may not make a difference to non Austin cavers but, it does make a difference to the Austin caving community. I've just been contacted again by the city to meet to look at the problems and issues that have arisen regarding 'rescues', the cost the Austin's citizens (nearly 20K for this last incident with UT students) and the potential liability for the city, and it's going to be very difficult to emploimplorecity to leave Airmen's open, and to allow cavers continued access when cavers continue to publicize locations, names, and techniques. And believe me, they will have already seen this email link before we meet at the end of the week, you see they're on cavetex, too.!! This is a plea to the caving community to discontinue publicizing by whatever method directions, locations, how-to's, and commentary about caves in general but, more specifically Austin caves. Y'all are killin' us in Austin and we're not going to be able to justify asking that the caves remain open with so much info out on the internet. Conversely, from the city pros
