Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Ray, Right now there are only nine caves open for recreational permits. We are working with the FS on a list of 43 caves to see which ones will be opened for recreational caving. So we are making progress, but, as when working with any government agency, things move slowly. Part of the delay is the schedules of the cavers involved in the meetings. Our next meeting will be on the 27th of this month and after that we should have a list of a significant number of the caves on the list that are available for recreational caving. What everyone has to remember is that we (cavers) are a very diverse group with many different and conflicting desires. Within the SWR we have cavers that want everything open with no permits required on one hand and then we have those who believe that the access to the caves should be restricted to restoration trips only with almost no, or very limited recreational caving allowed. Right now members of the later group spend a lot of time lobbying the folks in the Forest Service and are being listened to. Bottom line is that while we may get several more caves opened for recreational caving, if we really want to be able to visit all of the caves in the LNF, then we will have to bring something to the table besides yelling that they are public lands and we should have access. If we can convince the FS that they are getting something in return for the access that we want, then we will get access to many of the caves that will never be open for recreational caving. I probably should not have used the word requirement in my prior missive as those are really not requirements at this time but they are the topics that I have discussed with the FS as to what should be done in the caves on a monitoring trip. It seems that whenever I attempt to communicate with the caving community I have the unusual ability to use words or phrases that can be interperted two or three different ways - and are. After December that should no longer be a problem as I will no longer be the Chairman of the SWR and I can get back to just crawling around in holes in the ground - but then there will always be someone that thinks I do that wrong too. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. From: rckee...@cox.net To: ken_harring...@hotmail.com; nmca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:24:48 -0700 What happened to the 30 caves that were open to recreation, instead of nine? Sorry Ken, but it looks like the USFS is looking for an excuse for using unpaid labor ... again. Where is the documented, on-site criteria for the closures? Not blanket, cave-by-cave. If the SWR is regarded as the experts where is the consensus from SWR leaders with these additional 29 closures. What are the individual caves' exit criteria from the closures? thanks, Ray - Original Message - From: Ken Harrington To: NM Cavers Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Hi folks, This is directed at the members of the South Western Region (SWR) First a little background. At the beginning of this year the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF) closed all caves in the District to Recreational Caving. The caving community screamed and yelled and finally got the attention of the LNF management. After two meeting with the cavers, the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving. Since that time I have been working with Jerry Trout (now retired) and others in the LNF to develop a more cooperative relationship between the SWR and the LNF. At the SWR Regional meeting on Labor Day I outlined to those present what I was attempting to do. During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits. There will be at least one more meeting of those individuals to complete the list. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest Service guide is required. There are also at one cave on the list that was considered too dangerous for recreational caving due to bad air conditions. We also noted that one cave is closed due to the presence of human remains. That is what has occurred to date or is ongoing. Now moving forward: I and the folks at LNF are now in the final stages of drafting a working agreement between the two organizations. The following is an overview of what the SWR will be expected to do under this agreement. The LNF now considers us as the “Cave Experts” as they do not have anyone on staff that is knowledgeable of the caves within
Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Thanks Ken for the solid reply. Ray - Original Message - From: Ken Harrington To: rckee...@cox.net ; NM Cavers Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:32 AM Subject: RE: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Ray, Right now there are only nine caves open for recreational permits. We are working with the FS on a list of 43 caves to see which ones will be opened for recreational caving. So we are making progress, but, as when working with any government agency, things move slowly. Part of the delay is the schedules of the cavers involved in the meetings. Our next meeting will be on the 27th of this month and after that we should have a list of a significant number of the caves on the list that are available for recreational caving. What everyone has to remember is that we (cavers) are a very diverse group with many different and conflicting desires. Within the SWR we have cavers that want everything open with no permits required on one hand and then we have those who believe that the access to the caves should be restricted to restoration trips only with almost no, or very limited recreational caving allowed. Right now members of the later group spend a lot of time lobbying the folks in the Forest Service and are being listened to. Bottom line is that while we may get several more caves opened for recreational caving, if we really want to be able to visit all of the caves in the LNF, then we will have to bring something to the table besides yelling that they are public lands and we should have access. If we can convince the FS that they are getting something in return for the access that we want, then we will get access to many of the caves that will never be open for recreational caving. I probably should not have used the word requirement in my prior missive as those are really not requirements at this time but they are the topics that I have discussed with the FS as to what should be done in the caves on a monitoring trip. It seems that whenever I attempt to communicate with the caving community I have the unusual ability to use words or phrases that can be interperted two or three different ways - and are. After December that should no longer be a problem as I will no longer be the Chairman of the SWR and I can get back to just crawling around in holes in the ground - but then there will always be someone that thinks I do that wrong too. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. -- From: rckee...@cox.net To: ken_harring...@hotmail.com; nmca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:24:48 -0700 What happened to the 30 caves that were open to recreation, instead of nine? Sorry Ken, but it looks like the USFS is looking for an excuse for using unpaid labor ... again. Where is the documented, on-site criteria for the closures? Not blanket, cave-by-cave. If the SWR is regarded as the experts where is the consensus from SWR leaders with these additional 29 closures. What are the individual caves' exit criteria from the closures? thanks, Ray - Original Message - From: Ken Harrington To: NM Cavers Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Hi folks, This is directed at the members of the South Western Region (SWR) First a little background. At the beginning of this year the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF) closed all caves in the District to Recreational Caving. The caving community screamed and yelled and finally got the attention of the LNF management. After two meeting with the cavers, the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving. Since that time I have been working with Jerry Trout (now retired) and others in the LNF to develop a more cooperative relationship between the SWR and the LNF. At the SWR Regional meeting on Labor Day I outlined to those present what I was attempting to do. During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits. There will be at least one more meeting of those individuals to complete the list. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest Service guide is required. There are also at one cave on the list that was considered too dangerous for recreational caving due to bad air conditions. We also noted that one cave is closed due to the presence of human remains. That is what has occurred to date
Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Hi Jen and ALL, At least Ken is working with LNF to move somewhere. Thank you for bringing up the fee demo. The LNF response to the fee demo in the 1990s was to make ALL caves closed except to work trips. The move was to not continue to allow recreational trips, and then also log volunteer value for work trips. Jen, I must say that you are probably the most active contributor to the volunteer value efforts on a long term basis of everyone. High Guads access would not be where it is today without your commitment and work. Thank you for all of the efforts. thanks, Ray - Original Message - From: jen . To: rckee...@cox.net ; nmcaver Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 9:37 PM Subject: RE: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Most of the other 29 closures have been that way since at least the 90's. Ken (and other people) were working towards getting 30 caves open, now he has a larger wishlist. Currently 9 caves in the LNF are open to recreational caving (maybe more soon). Some of the caves on the wishlist require work such as survey/inventory and safety sheets before they can be opened per the current cave management plan. The local office is doing the best they can with no resources/funding. Ray, I know you were around for fee demo and the NSS agreement to provide volunteer cavers. Yes cavers get the short end of the stick, but its because we love the caves more than they do. We all know WNS is about to surprise us all with unscientific closures that will destroy the caver/volunteer network. I hope they can understand what they are about to lose (not just the forest, other Gov agencies too). Jen. -- From: rckee...@cox.net To: ken_harring...@hotmail.com; nmca...@caver.net Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:24:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement What happened to the 30 caves that were open to recreation, instead of nine? Sorry Ken, but it looks like the USFS is looking for an excuse for using unpaid labor ... again. Where is the documented, on-site criteria for the closures? Not blanket, cave-by-cave. If the SWR is regarded as the experts where is the consensus from SWR leaders with these additional 29 closures. What are the individual caves' exit criteria from the closures? thanks, Ray - Original Message - From: Ken Harrington To: NM Cavers Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Hi folks, This is directed at the members of the South Western Region (SWR) First a little background. At the beginning of this year the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF) closed all caves in the District to Recreational Caving. The caving community screamed and yelled and finally got the attention of the LNF management. After two meeting with the cavers, the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving. Since that time I have been working with Jerry Trout (now retired) and others in the LNF to develop a more cooperative relationship between the SWR and the LNF. At the SWR Regional meeting on Labor Day I outlined to those present what I was attempting to do. During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits. There will be at least one more meeting of those individuals to complete the list. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest Service guide is required. There are also at one cave on the list that was considered too dangerous for recreational caving due to bad air conditions. We also noted that one cave is closed due to the presence of human remains. That is what has occurred to date or is ongoing. Now moving forward: I and the folks at LNF are now in the final stages of drafting a working agreement between the two organizations. The following is an overview of what the SWR will be expected to do under this agreement. The LNF now considers us as the “Cave Experts” as they do not have anyone on staff that is knowledgeable of the caves within the LNF. The LNF has a requirement on the book to monitor all the caves within their area of responsibility – well over 100 caves. Under the agreement we will be required to perform monitoring trips to as many of the caves as possible. Monitoring trips will be performed by teams of four to six individuals. Activities to be performed on these trips include: a) Mapping and surveying of caves which have not previously been mapped. b) Photo documentation
Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
What happened to the 30 caves that were open to recreation, instead of nine? Sorry Ken, but it looks like the USFS is looking for an excuse for using unpaid labor ... again. Where is the documented, on-site criteria for the closures? Not blanket, cave-by-cave. If the SWR is regarded as the experts where is the consensus from SWR leaders with these additional 29 closures. What are the individual caves' exit criteria from the closures? thanks, Ray - Original Message - From: Ken Harrington To: NM Cavers Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Hi folks, This is directed at the members of the South Western Region (SWR) First a little background. At the beginning of this year the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF) closed all caves in the District to Recreational Caving. The caving community screamed and yelled and finally got the attention of the LNF management. After two meeting with the cavers, the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving. Since that time I have been working with Jerry Trout (now retired) and others in the LNF to develop a more cooperative relationship between the SWR and the LNF. At the SWR Regional meeting on Labor Day I outlined to those present what I was attempting to do. During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits. There will be at least one more meeting of those individuals to complete the list. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest Service guide is required. There are also at one cave on the list that was considered too dangerous for recreational caving due to bad air conditions. We also noted that one cave is closed due to the presence of human remains. That is what has occurred to date or is ongoing. Now moving forward: I and the folks at LNF are now in the final stages of drafting a working agreement between the two organizations. The following is an overview of what the SWR will be expected to do under this agreement. The LNF now considers us as the “Cave Experts” as they do not have anyone on staff that is knowledgeable of the caves within the LNF. The LNF has a requirement on the book to monitor all the caves within their area of responsibility – well over 100 caves. Under the agreement we will be required to perform monitoring trips to as many of the caves as possible. Monitoring trips will be performed by teams of four to six individuals. Activities to be performed on these trips include: a) Mapping and surveying of caves which have not previously been mapped. b) Photo documentation of the condition of the caves, unique formations, any noted vandalism and any life forms observed. c) Recommendations of caves that need restoration work. d) Possible temperature readings if digital thermometers are available. e) Presence and estimated number of bats f) Each trip will require a detailed trip report specifying what was observed, potentially dangerous situations or spots (loose rocks, slippery footing, extremely difficult vertical work required, etc.), life forms observed, archeological sightings, condition of formations, etc. While the initial trips will be to those caves which are on the list of 43 curently being considered for recreational permits, eventually the monitoring trips will be extended to caves which are not available for recreational caving permits. This is an excellent opportunity for us to visit these caves and assist the LNF in developing their data base of information on the caves which they are charged with administering. As a part of the agreement I am required to provide a listing of the names of individuals from the SWR who could be expected to be involved in the monitoring trips. I am also required to provide a tentative schedule of when we could make some of the monitoring trips. The schedule is fairly easy for me but I now need to know how much support is really out there to perform these trips. If there is not sufficient interest then both the management team at LNF and myself are just spinning our wheels and wasting a lot of precious time. So I now need to know who would be willing to be involved in participating in these trips. Please e-mail at ken_harring...@hotmail.com if you would like to be involved. Hopefully, my inbox will be full of positive responses. Thanks! Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. --
Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
And now we here that the BLM is doing a blanket closure of all BLM managed caves starting on 1 Nov to recreational trips. Bob - Original Message - From: Ray Keeler rckee...@cox.net To: Ken Harrington ken_harring...@hotmail.com, NM Cavers nmca...@caver.net Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:24:48 PM Subject: Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement What happened to the 30 caves that were open to recreation, instead of nine? Sorry Ken, but it looks like the USFS is looking for an excuse for using unpaid labor ... again. Where is the documented, on-site criteria for the closures? Not blanket, cave-by-cave. If the SWR is regarded as the experts where is the consensus from SWR leaders with these additional 29 closures. What are the individual caves' exit criteria from the closures? thanks, Ray - Original Message - From: Ken Harrington To: NM Cavers Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Hi folks, This is directed at the members of the South Western Region (SWR) First a little background. At the beginning of this year the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF) closed all caves in the District to Recreational Caving. The caving community screamed and yelled and finally got the attention of the LNF management. After two meeting with the cavers, the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving. Since that time I have been working with Jerry Trout (now retired) and others in the LNF to develop a more cooperative relationship between the SWR and the LNF. At the SWR Regional meeting on Labor Day I outlined to those present what I was attempting to do. During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits. There will be at least one more meeting of those individuals to complete the list. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest Service guide is required. There are also at one cave on the list that was considered too dangerous for recreational caving due to bad air conditions. We also noted that one cave is closed due to the presence of human remains. That is what has occurred to date or is ongoing. Now moving forward: I and the folks at LNF are now in the final stages of drafting a working agreement between the two organizations. The following is an overview of what the SWR will be expected to do under this agreement. The LNF now considers us as the “Cave Experts” as they do not have anyone on staff that is knowledgeable of the caves within the LNF. The LNF has a requirement on the book to monitor all the caves within their area of responsibility – well over 100 caves. Under the agreement we will be required to perform monitoring trips to as many of the caves as possible. Monitoring trips will be performed by teams of four to six individuals. Activities to be performed on these trips include: a) Mapping and surveying of caves which have not previously been mapped. b) Photo documentation of the condition of the caves, unique formations, any noted vandalism and any life forms observed. c) Recommendations of caves that need restoration work. d) Possible temperature readings if digital thermometers are available. e) Presence and estimated number of bats f) Each trip will require a detailed trip report specifying what was observed, potentially dangerous situations or spots (loose rocks, slippery footing, extremely difficult vertical work required, etc.), life forms observed, archeological sightings, condition of formations, etc. While the initial trips will be to those caves which are on the list of 43 curently being considered for recreational permits, eventually the monitoring trips will be extended to caves which are not available for recreational caving permits. This is an excellent opportunity for us to visit these caves and assist the LNF in developing their data base of information on the caves which they are charged with administering. As a part of the agreement I am required to provide a listing of the names of individuals from the SWR who could be expected to be involved in the monitoring trips. I am also required to provide a tentative schedule of when we could make some of the monitoring trips. The schedule is fairly easy for me but I now need to know how much support is really out there to perform these trips. If there is not sufficient interest then both the management team at LNF and myself are just spinning our wheels and wasting a lot of precious time. So I now need to know who would be willing to be involved in participating
Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Whoa, that's news! What are the details/reasons? On 10/18/2010 19:57, motoca...@comcast.net wrote: And now we here that the BLM is doing a blanket closure of all BLM managed caves starting on 1 Nov to recreational trips. Bob - Original Message - From: Ray Keeler rckee...@cox.net To: Ken Harrington ken_harring...@hotmail.com, NM Cavers nmca...@caver.net Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:24:48 PM Subject: Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement What happened to the 30 caves that were open to recreation, instead of nine? Sorry Ken, but it looks like the USFS is looking for an excuse for using unpaid labor ... again. Where is the documented, on-site criteria for the closures? Not blanket, cave-by-cave. If the SWR is regarded as the experts where is the consensus from SWR leaders with these additional 29 closures. What are the individual caves' exit criteria from the closures? thanks, Ray ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Most of the other 29 closures have been that way since at least the 90's. Ken (and other people) were working towards getting 30 caves open, now he has a larger wishlist. Currently 9 caves in the LNF are open to recreational caving (maybe more soon). Some of the caves on the wishlist require work such as survey/inventory and safety sheets before they can be opened per the current cave management plan. The local office is doing the best they can with no resources/funding. Ray, I know you were around for fee demo and the NSS agreement to provide volunteer cavers. Yes cavers get the short end of the stick, but its because we love the caves more than they do. We all know WNS is about to surprise us all with unscientific closures that will destroy the caver/volunteer network. I hope they can understand what they are about to lose (not just the forest, other Gov agencies too). Jen. From: rckee...@cox.net To: ken_harring...@hotmail.com; nmca...@caver.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 19:24:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement What happened to the 30 caves that were open to recreation, instead of nine? Sorry Ken, but it looks like the USFS is looking for an excuse for using unpaid labor ... again. Where is the documented, on-site criteria for the closures? Not blanket, cave-by-cave. If the SWR is regarded as the experts where is the consensus from SWR leaders with these additional 29 closures. What are the individual caves' exit criteria from the closures? thanks, Ray - Original Message - From: Ken Harrington To: NM Cavers Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:38 PM Subject: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Hi folks, This is directed at the members of the South Western Region (SWR) First a little background. At the beginning of this year the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF) closed all caves in the District to Recreational Caving. The caving community screamed and yelled and finally got the attention of the LNF management. After two meeting with the cavers, the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving. Since that time I have been working with Jerry Trout (now retired) and others in the LNF to develop a more cooperative relationship between the SWR and the LNF. At the SWR Regional meeting on Labor Day I outlined to those present what I was attempting to do. During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits. There will be at least one more meeting of those individuals to complete the list. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest Service guide is required. There are also at one cave on the list that was considered too dangerous for recreational caving due to bad air conditions. We also noted that one cave is closed due to the presence of human remains. That is what has occurred to date or is ongoing. Now moving forward: I and the folks at LNF are now in the final stages of drafting a working agreement between the two organizations. The following is an overview of what the SWR will be expected to do under this agreement. The LNF now considers us as the “Cave Experts” as they do not have anyone on staff that is knowledgeable of the caves within the LNF. The LNF has a requirement on the book to monitor all the caves within their area of responsibility – well over 100 caves. Under the agreement we will be required to perform monitoring trips to as many of the caves as possible. Monitoring trips will be performed by teams of four to six individuals. Activities to be performed on these trips include: a) Mapping and surveying of caves which have not previously been mapped. b) Photo documentation of the condition of the caves, unique formations, any noted vandalism and any life forms observed. c) Recommendations of caves that need restoration work. d) Possible temperature readings if digital thermometers are available. e) Presence and estimated number of bats f) Each trip will require a detailed trip report specifying what was observed, potentially dangerous situations or spots (loose rocks, slippery footing, extremely difficult vertical work required, etc.), life forms observed, archeological sightings, condition of formations, etc. While the initial trips will be to those caves which are on the list of 43 curently being considered for recreational permits, eventually the monitoring trips
Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Another important thing this Project will do is hopefully get more local people approved as trip leaders. It will be great to have another way to get trip leaders trained, especially for people that don't want to do Restoration (though lately HGRP has been concentrating on these same monitoring tasks). p.s. If anyone wants to monitor some of these caves Oct 23-24 send an email to highgu...@yahoo.com by THIS SUNDAY. I was hoping to send out four groups and only have enough for three so far. Jennifer From: ken_harring...@hotmail.com To: nmca...@caver.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:38:05 -0600 Subject: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement Hi folks, This is directed at the members of the South Western Region (SWR) First a little background. At the beginning of this year the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National Forest (LNF) closed all caves in the District to Recreational Caving. The caving community screamed and yelled and finally got the attention of the LNF management. After two meeting with the cavers, the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving. Since that time I have been working with Jerry Trout (now retired) and others in the LNF to develop a more cooperative relationship between the SWR and the LNF. At the SWR Regional meeting on Labor Day I outlined to those present what I was attempting to do. During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits. There will be at least one more meeting of those individuals to complete the list. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest Service guide is required. There are also at one cave on the list that was considered too dangerous for recreational caving due to bad air conditions. We also noted that one cave is closed due to the presence of human remains. That is what has occurred to date or is ongoing. Now moving forward: I and the folks at LNF are now in the final stages of drafting a working agreement between the two organizations. The following is an overview of what the SWR will be expected to do under this agreement. The LNF now considers us as the “Cave Experts” as they do not have anyone on staff that is knowledgeable of the caves within the LNF. The LNF has a requirement on the book to monitor all the caves within their area of responsibility – well over 100 caves. Under the agreement we will be required to perform monitoring trips to as many of the caves as possible. Monitoring trips will be performed by teams of four to six individuals. Activities to be performed on these trips include: a) Mapping and surveying of caves which have not previously been mapped. b) Photo documentation of the condition of the caves, unique formations, any noted vandalism and any life forms observed. c) Recommendations of caves that need restoration work. d) Possible temperature readings if digital thermometers are available. e) Presence and estimated number of bats f) Each trip will require a detailed trip report specifying what was observed, potentially dangerous situations or spots (loose rocks, slippery footing, extremely difficult vertical work required, etc.), life forms observed, archeological sightings, condition of formations, etc. While the initial trips will be to those caves which are on the list of 43 curently being considered for recreational permits, eventually the monitoring trips will be extended to caves which are not available for recreational caving permits. This is an excellent opportunity for us to visit these caves and assist the LNF in developing their data base of information on the caves which they are charged with administering. As a part of the agreement I am required to provide a listing of the names of individuals from the SWR who could be expected to be involved in the monitoring trips. I am also required to provide a tentative schedule of when we could make some of the monitoring trips. The schedule is fairly easy for me but I now need to know how much support is really out there to perform these trips. If there is not sufficient interest then both the management team at LNF and myself are just spinning our wheels and wasting a lot of precious time. So I now need to know who would be willing to be involved in participating in these trips. Please e-mail at ken_harring...@hotmail.com if you would like to be involved. Hopefully, my inbox will be full of positive responses. Thanks! Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. ___ NMCAVER mailing
Re: [NMCAVER] SWR Lincoln National Forest Working Agreement
Ken Harrington wrote: After two meeting with the cavers, the LNF reopened nine caves for recreational caving. During a recent meeting between members of the SWR and the LNF we arrived at a list of 43 caves that are being considered for recreational permits. Caves on the list will be considered for three types of recreational permits: 1) Permit where no dedicated leader is required, 2) trips where a trip leader knowledgeable of the cave is required and 3) trips where a Forest Service guide is required. So, what happened to that dangling carrot where we were being told there was consideration of eliminating that inane permit requirement for ungated caves? I guess they really weren't serious about that it seems. ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
