Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal web site is down?

[George Veni]

Diana,

Thanks for pointing this out. I was traveling which delayed me from replying. I 
contacted other members of the Karst Information Portal team and we discovered 
there was some confusion about who was responsible for registering the domain, 
which happened about 14 years ago. This problem has been solved and the 
www.karstportal.org address is reestablished. The site is maintained by our 
University of South Florida partner, and can be accessed through the 
university's url as Katie discovered, but the www.karstportal.org address is 
far more intuitive and easier to remember so we maintain that as well.

If you or anyone else has any questions, comments, or suggestions for the Karst 
Information Portal, let me know.

George 


George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org


-Original Message-
From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
Diana Tomchick
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 5:23 PM
To: Cave Tex
Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal web site is down?

Or is it no longer functional?

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry UT Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)




UT Southwestern


Medical Center



The future of medicine, today.


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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal web site is down?

[Katherine Arens]

i found it up at https://digital.lib.usf.edu/karst
it looks like a URL expired.
k
On Jan 28, 2020, at 6:23 PM, Diana Tomchick 
mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu>> 
wrote:

Or is it no longer functional?

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
UT Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)




UT Southwestern


Medical Center



The future of medicine, today.


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Katherine Arens, ProfessorPhones: Office(512) 232-6363
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471-4123
Dept. of Germanic Studies FAX (512) 471-4025
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./'..|'.|| |\`` '`" '` ''/| ||.`|..`\.
  ./'.||'. .  .  .`||.`\.
 /'|||'.|| {   } ||.`|||`\
'.|||'.||| {   } |||.`|||.`
'.||| | |/'   ``\||`` ''||/''   `\| | |||.`
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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[R D Milhollin via Texascavers]

Mark,
My understanding is that the KIP is an international repository, so the 
member's only access limitation you suggest would have to be extended to all 
nation's National Speleological Association in order to be fair. Perhaps the 
NSS Archives Committee could be encouraged to set up a similar service but only 
for US cave-related organization's publications. Since the scanned newsletters 
are already in place on KIP, transferring those to that new local portal 
would seem to be a pretty simple process, and the collection could reside 
behind the NSS member paywall. 
RD
  From: Mark Minton via Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com
 To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:03 AM
 Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal
   
George,

  According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
Maybe they should be put into a special members only area where NSS
members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
looks like it might have been for naught. :-(

Mark

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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

RD,

   It would be fine with me if any organization that wanted one could have
a private members area. Once KIP got set up for that, it should be
pretty simple to offer it to anyone. Still sort of defeats the purpose
of open access, though. Generally speaking, cave location information
is not considered particularly sensitive in most parts of the world.
The U. S. seems to be especially concerned, perhaps occasionally
justifiably so, but mostly I think it's just paranoia.

Mark

On Wed, December 10, 2014 10:19 am, R D Milhollin via Texascavers wrote:
 Mark,
 My understanding is that the KIP is an international repository, so the
 member's only access limitation you suggest would have to be extended to
 all nation's National Speleological Association in order to be fair.
 Perhaps the NSS Archives Committee could be encouraged to set up a similar
 service but only for US cave-related organization's publications. Since
 the scanned newsletters are already in place on KIP, transferring those to
 that new local portal would seem to be a pretty simple process, and the
 collection could reside behind the NSS member paywall.
 RD
   From: Mark Minton via Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:03 AM
  Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

 George,

   According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
 are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
 the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
 What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
 Maybe they should be put into a special members only area where NSS
 members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
 see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
 newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
 looks like it might have been for naught. :-(

 Mark

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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Alex Sproul via Texascavers]

I discovered that posting this morning, too. I think it's KIP that is 
overreacting by 
removing ALL grotto newsletters; the issue was just raised in the past few days 
by Huntsville, based on a member who discovered the KIP trove and worried 
about sensitive info in older issues. I'm not aware of any other recent 
complaints.

I'm in their Yahoo group, and responded that they should instead redact any 
sensitive info (which I suspect is very little). It's a large chore, but easy 
enough to 
do.

Most, if not all, of the 351 HG issues online were sent in by Windy City (Bill 
Mixon) and not HG, which may be the cause of the kerfuffle.

I've written to KIP Liaison Todd Chavez, urging him to drag his feet on the 
removal until we can calm the waters.

Hopefully we can preempt this, and your efforts (and Bill's and mine) will not 
have been in vain.

On 10 Dec 2014 at 10:03, Mark Minton via Texascavers wrote:

From:   Mark Minton via Texascavers 
texascavers@texascavers.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date sent:  Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:03:45 -0500
Send reply to:  texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject:[Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

 George,
 
According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
 are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
 the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
 What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
 Maybe they should be put into a special members only area where NSS
 members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
 see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
 newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
 looks like it might have been for naught. :-(
 
 Mark




-- 
Alex Sproul
NSS 8086RL/FE
Acting NSS Webmaster
www.caves.org
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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Mixon Bill via Texascavers]

For whatever it's worth, I had nothing to do with sending Huntsville  
Grotto News issues to KIP. Haven't been in Windy City for 34 years.  
Does seem like a bit presumptuous for one grotto to submit another  
grotto's newsletters unless in cooperation with the other grotto.


I've never been a secrecy type, but I can imagine that many people are  
worried about KIP in general. It does have a lot of publications  
containing cave locations, and will no doubt get more. For example, I  
have published lists (albeit pretty obsolete by now) of cave locations  
in Missouri and Alabama. Data like that are not protected by  
copyright. It is a great boon that these days one can find, say, the  
atomic weight of lanthanum in about 15 seconds without pulling a book  
from the shelf. But that also works for just about everything else.  
Get over it.-- Mixon


Certainly the game is rigged: If you don't bet, you can't win.

You may reply to the address this message
(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[George Veni via Texascavers]

Mark and everyone,

I've been traveling and haven't had the chance to check the KIP website. I 
called the KIP team to get the latest details but haven't been able to connect 
yet, so here is what I know so far.

KIP does not post anything unless it is described as open access (available 
freely to all) or it has explicit permission, as it does from TSA to post the 
Texas Caver.

As I understand, NSS gave permission for KIP to post many of its materials, 
which included some Pennsylvania newsletters in its library. Some Pennsylvania 
cavers saw their newsletters and complained. Word quickly spread. KIP 
immediately withdrew those materials and others provided by NSS. Currently the 
KIP team is verifying what material provided by NSS the NSS had authority to 
post and which needs permission of grottos, regions, etc. It is professionally 
and legally vital for KIP to have proper permission, so removing those 
publications is necessary  until clear permission is in place.

I encourage everyone who has legal access to publications to continue posting 
them to KIP. If there is information in a publication you consider sensitive, 
just specify it and it can be redacted. Some organizations post their materials 
immediately to KIP while others ask it not be posted for a specified period. 
Some want certain information redacted and some don't.  The KIP team will work 
to meet the needs of the publishers.

The idea of creating password-protection for the materials isn't practical. 
First, it is contrary to KIP's open access purpose. Second, KIP hosts 
publications from over 20 countries and even more organizations. Setting up 
password protection for their members isn't practical and best left to each 
organization to set up on its own on its own website if it wants such 
protection.

In the worst case and some of the material does not reappear on KIP, first, 
don't blame KIP. Complain to the person or organization that published the 
material for not giving KIP permission to post it. Second, keep in mind that 
KIP has a private archive with scanned publications that it does not have 
permission to post. The KIP team is seeking permission for this material. Even 
where permission has been refused, KIP is designed for the long-term. KIP 
retains those digital files (which it can legally do as long as it doesn't 
distribute them) should the situation change some day. This has happened as 
organizations change priorities and publications go out of print (or the last 
copy is lost in a fire) and the publisher no longer sees any benefit in not 
freely posting their materials.

If I learn anything more of relevance, I'll be sure to post it to this list. 
Anyone wishing to distribute this message to others is welcome to do so.

George


Sent from my mobile phone



George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215
USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org




 Original message 
From: Mark Minton via Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: 2014/12/10 08:04 (GMT-07:00)
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal


George,

   According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
Maybe they should be put into a special members only area where NSS
members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
looks like it might have been for naught. :-(

Mark

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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

(Now at home and able to perhaps reply)

Speaking on behalf of the NSS Board we agree with everything George Veni has
posted below concerning KIP, its purpose, and how they handle their
material. I must make one clarification though: the NSS did not sent any
Grotto newsletters to KIP.

The collections that are in question were donated by a Grotto and included
their exchange newsletters. The did not and will not send our archive of
newsletters (every Grotto is required to send copies to the NSS for our own
library archive, so we have a lot) to KIP. We do not own the copyright to
those publications, and as such will not distribute them for digital
archiving.

We did send our own publications for archiving, and due to the vast majority
of it being performed from a large donation (it is a destructive process,
and the donor understood the pages would be separated), we have found that
there are a few, at most, that may have locations imbedded in the article.
Since it is NSS policy, until we catch up with the rest of the world, to
conceal locations we will mark over the relevant words/sentences and submit
those for substitution.

We too would encourage Grottos to submit their reviewed (and if necessary,
redacted) archives to KIP. Archives of NSS Publications that have not been
redacted may be found in our Members section: www.caves.org.

Cave softly,

Wm Shrewsbury
President, National Speleological Society

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of
George Veni via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:38 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

Mark and everyone, 

I've been traveling and haven't had the chance to check the KIP website. I
called the KIP team to get the latest details but haven't been able to
connect yet, so here is what I know so far.

KIP does not post anything unless it is described as open access (available
freely to all) or it has explicit permission, as it does from TSA to post
the Texas Caver.

As I understand, NSS gave permission for KIP to post many of its materials,
which included some Pennsylvania newsletters in its library. Some
Pennsylvania cavers saw their newsletters and complained. Word quickly
spread. KIP immediately withdrew those materials and others provided by NSS.
Currently the KIP team is verifying what material provided by NSS the NSS
had authority to post and which needs permission of grottos, regions, etc.
It is professionally and legally vital for KIP to have proper permission, so
removing those publications is necessary  until clear permission is in
place.

I encourage everyone who has legal access to publications to continue
posting them to KIP. If there is information in a publication you consider
sensitive, just specify it and it can be redacted. Some organizations post
their materials immediately to KIP while others ask it not be posted for a
specified period. Some want certain information redacted and some don't.
 The KIP team will work to meet the needs of the publishers.

The idea of creating password-protection for the materials isn't practical.
First, it is contrary to KIP's open access purpose. Second, KIP hosts
publications from over 20 countries and even more organizations. Setting up
password protection for their members isn't practical and best left to each
organization to set up on its own on its own website if it wants such
protection. 

In the worst case and some of the material does not reappear on KIP, first,
don't blame KIP. Complain to the person or organization that published the
material for not giving KIP permission to post it. Second, keep in mind that
KIP has a private archive with scanned publications that it does not have
permission to post. The KIP team is seeking permission for this material.
Even where permission has been refused, KIP is designed for the long-term.
KIP retains those digital files (which it can legally do as long as it
doesn't distribute them) should the situation change some day. This has
happened as organizations change priorities and publications go out of print
(or the last copy is lost in a fire) and the publisher no longer sees any
benefit in not freely posting their materials. 

If I learn anything more of relevance, I'll be sure to post it to this list.
Anyone wishing to distribute this message to others is welcome to do so.

George


Sent from my mobile phone 

 

George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215
USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org 




 Original message 
From: Mark Minton via Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com 
Date: 2014/12/10 08:04 (GMT-07:00) 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal 

George,

   According to the Karst

Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[George Veni via Texascavers]

Wm,

Thanks for the correction, elaboration, and support.

George


Sent from my mobile phone



George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215
USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org




 Original message 
From: Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: 2014/12/10 16:09 (GMT-07:00)
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal


(Now at home and able to perhaps reply)

Speaking on behalf of the NSS Board we agree with everything George Veni has
posted below concerning KIP, its purpose, and how they handle their
material. I must make one clarification though: the NSS did not sent any
Grotto newsletters to KIP.

The collections that are in question were donated by a Grotto and included
their exchange newsletters. The did not and will not send our archive of
newsletters (every Grotto is required to send copies to the NSS for our own
library archive, so we have a lot) to KIP. We do not own the copyright to
those publications, and as such will not distribute them for digital
archiving.

We did send our own publications for archiving, and due to the vast majority
of it being performed from a large donation (it is a destructive process,
and the donor understood the pages would be separated), we have found that
there are a few, at most, that may have locations imbedded in the article.
Since it is NSS policy, until we catch up with the rest of the world, to
conceal locations we will mark over the relevant words/sentences and submit
those for substitution.

We too would encourage Grottos to submit their reviewed (and if necessary,
redacted) archives to KIP. Archives of NSS Publications that have not been
redacted may be found in our Members section: 
www.caves.orghttp://www.caves.org.

Cave softly,

Wm Shrewsbury
President, National Speleological Society

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of
George Veni via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:38 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

Mark and everyone,

I've been traveling and haven't had the chance to check the KIP website. I
called the KIP team to get the latest details but haven't been able to
connect yet, so here is what I know so far.

KIP does not post anything unless it is described as open access (available
freely to all) or it has explicit permission, as it does from TSA to post
the Texas Caver.

As I understand, NSS gave permission for KIP to post many of its materials,
which included some Pennsylvania newsletters in its library. Some
Pennsylvania cavers saw their newsletters and complained. Word quickly
spread. KIP immediately withdrew those materials and others provided by NSS.
Currently the KIP team is verifying what material provided by NSS the NSS
had authority to post and which needs permission of grottos, regions, etc.
It is professionally and legally vital for KIP to have proper permission, so
removing those publications is necessary  until clear permission is in
place.

I encourage everyone who has legal access to publications to continue
posting them to KIP. If there is information in a publication you consider
sensitive, just specify it and it can be redacted. Some organizations post
their materials immediately to KIP while others ask it not be posted for a
specified period. Some want certain information redacted and some don't.
 The KIP team will work to meet the needs of the publishers.

The idea of creating password-protection for the materials isn't practical.
First, it is contrary to KIP's open access purpose. Second, KIP hosts
publications from over 20 countries and even more organizations. Setting up
password protection for their members isn't practical and best left to each
organization to set up on its own on its own website if it wants such
protection.

In the worst case and some of the material does not reappear on KIP, first,
don't blame KIP. Complain to the person or organization that published the
material for not giving KIP permission to post it. Second, keep in mind that
KIP has a private archive with scanned publications that it does not have
permission to post. The KIP team is seeking permission for this material.
Even where permission has been refused, KIP is designed for the long-term.
KIP retains those digital files (which it can legally do as long as it
doesn't distribute them) should the situation change some day. This has
happened as organizations change priorities and publications go out of print
(or the last copy is lost in a fire) and the publisher no longer sees any
benefit in not freely posting their materials.

If I learn anything more of relevance, I'll be sure to post it to this list.
Anyone wishing to distribute