Re: Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
The Ruritanian Müsli-Kreppendorfer in 16.5 mm is preferred in some speleo circles. R RassendyllFeb 21, 2010 09:51:08 PM, a...@oztotl.com wrote: I have been caving in Arizona with cavers who carried guns while caving. It seems that other cavers are not too friendly to cavers they find in those caves that no one speaks of. Hopefully Texas won't get that way. Um, actually, I have never been caving in Arizona because they have no caves! ;-) Allan - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Yes, Jerry. I, too, remember Fieseler carrying a small handgun for snakes near cave entrances during a caving trip in west Texas back in the late 1980s. As best I can remember, the gun was a small revolver, probably a snub nose 38, loaded with some kind of ammo appropriate for shooting snakes at close range with minimal risk of ricochets or dangerous stray bullets. I don't remember exactly what kind of ammo he used, but wax bullets would seem reasonable for that.Another kind of ammo that some people carry for short range snake shooting with minimal risk is shot cartridges. These are available in some handgun calibers, and they work like miniature shotgun shells. Instead of a bullet, each cartridge contains many small pellets, which have very limited range, since they slow quickly when traveling through air (and even more quickly whenever they hit anything). Back during the late 1980s, I remember talking with a uniformed park ranger or law enforcement officer of some sort who openly carried a handgun (probably a regular size 38 revolver) in Pedernales Falls State Park. He said he kept it loaded with shot cartridges, primarily for snakes. Cartridges of this type, can be expected to have more effective range and more potential hazard than wax bullets, but not nearly as much as conventional bullets. Safety glasses would be a good precaution if any of this stuff is fired at close range, since some debris could fly back towards the shooter.The main reason I can seen for carrying a gun into a cave much past the entrance would be to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands if there is no secure place to leave it near the entrance. You would not want to leave it where it might be stolen by a criminal or discovered by children. A small handgun would not be prohibitively bulky or heavy to carry in a cave pack, and it would be a simple matter to unload it first to eliminate any danger of accidental discharge. I doubt that a Pelican Case would be necessary in most cases, but it would be a good idea to pack it in something that would provide some padding and would keep out the dirt and water.Rod-Original Message- From: jerryat...@aol.com Sent: Feb 21, 2010 10:41 PM To: lkpa...@sbcglobal.net, mmin...@illinoisalumni.org, texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns Back in the day, Ronnie Fieseler carried a handgun with special wax bullets to use in cave entrances in case he encountered the odd rattlesnake. Worked quite well as I remember. The bullets had a good bit of hitting power yet melted on impact into harmless liquid that wouldn't ricochet back at you. Jerry. In a message dated 2/21/2010 9:10:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, lkpa...@sbcglobal.net writes: Might make a good mystery/shoot-‘em-up book. From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PMTo: texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept.Mark Minton - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Well, actually I have seen a few rattlers in caves and they occasionally rattled me a bit. Reloaders know that you can substitute #9 shot for the single big bullet and make your own loads like Ronnie's wax bullets. (Commercial "Rat shot" in a .22 rimfire doesn't do much and only makes them mad.) I recall one large rattler (~6 feet +) that the rancher shot with his shotgun, not far from a tight crawl way crack we were digging one day in central TX. Another time "well back" into Powell's I crawled up a breakdown slope and backed off from a sleeping, coiled rattler. That snake was about 3" in diameter and we detoured our upstream exploration of the water passage through a nearby bypass where we had to belly through a low dig in the flowing water. Some caves are just snake dens and I can recall at least two that we never checked out because they were just too full of rattlers. We returned to one of those in the dead of winter and pitched in some stones to the tune of many rattles; we let the snakes keep their den. Alan mentioned the AZ folks like to "carry". Four of us from TX observed that as well when camping at a location not to speak of when several cans were "plugged" by the locals. Several times when we took scout groups to River Styx we were always very careful to scope out the upper entrance because more than once we found snakes just inside. One time when half the group was just inside the entrance and the other half was outside, a curious rattler (small, ~ 2 feet) crawled out to see if he heard dinner in his cave. We carefully boarded him up with sticks and small rocks while the rest of the scouts and leaders quietly crawled past the viper. We always enjoyed telling each group to watch for "Bubba", a six footer Butch Fralia had reported seeing numerous times not far from the entrance we were using. - Pete On Feb 21, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Mark Minton wrote: While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
I have been caving in Arizona with cavers who carried guns while caving. It seems that other cavers are not too friendly to cavers they find in those caves that no one speaks of. Hopefully Texas won't get that way. Um, actually, I have never been caving in Arizona because they have no caves! ;-) Allan
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Back in the day, Ronnie Fieseler carried a handgun with special wax bullets to use in cave entrances in case he encountered the odd rattlesnake. Worked quite well as I remember. The bullets had a good bit of hitting power yet melted on impact into harmless liquid that wouldn't ricochet back at you. Jerry. In a message dated 2/21/2010 9:10:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, lkpa...@sbcglobal.net writes: Might make a good mystery/shoot-‘em-up book. From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Where the Sun Dont Shine by Fred L. Wefer Don's iPhone. On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:10 PM, Linda Palit wrote: Might make a good mystery/shoot-‘em-up book. From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton >From: David >To: Cavers Texas >Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM >Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns > >Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside >almost all federally >owned caves. The exceptions are the tour caves. > >You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state >you are caving in >accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in >that state. > >So what size gun do you pack? > >A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs. > >A 50 caliber ought to do the trick: > >http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg > >I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation. > >So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are >all packing heat. >You get to the cave, suit up, and then what? Do you all leave your >guns in the entrance? >What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding >your guns at you? >So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen. > >Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a >hike to a federally owned cave? A bear ? A mountain lion ? A >wolf or coyote? A fugitive hiding in a cave? > >I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of >the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case. > >I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be >accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to >defend in a situation. > >I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a >"federally-owned" cave. > >But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected? > >I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the >hike, to leave it at the car and locked up. ( This is all >theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! ) > >If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving. If that >failed, then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the >twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt. > >I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave, >or Hidden Cave? Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest >lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time. Right? >Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip? > >David Locklear
Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Hmm, this is a good chance for mentioning this. A California caver just published a book that, yup, involves a gun in a cave. You can find it in Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/ygvllxr (and you'll see Bill Mixon's review of it at the page in Amazon) - Fofo Linda Palit wrote, on 21/2/10 19:10: Might make a good mystery/shoot-�em-up book. *From:* Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] *Sent:* Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PM *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Subject:* [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton >From: David >To: Cavers Texas >Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM >Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns > >Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside >almost all federally >owned caves. The exceptions are the tour caves. > >You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state >you are caving in >accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in >that state. > >So what size gun do you pack? > >A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs. > >A 50 caliber ought to do the trick: > >http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg > >I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation. > >So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are >all packing heat. >You get to the cave, suit up, and then what? Do you all leave your >guns in the entrance? >What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding >your guns at you? >So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen. > >Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a >hike to a federally owned cave? A bear ? A mountain lion ? A >wolf or coyote? A fugitive hiding in a cave? > >I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of >the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case. > >I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be >accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to >defend in a situation. > >I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a >"federally-owned" cave. > >But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected? > >I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the >hike, to leave it at the car and locked up. ( This is all >theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! ) > >If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving. If that >failed, then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the >twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt. > >I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave, >or Hidden Cave? Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest >lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time. Right? >Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip? > >David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns
Might make a good mystery/shoot-'em-up book. From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@illinoisalumni.org] Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire. Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous concept. Mark Minton >From: David >To: Cavers Texas >Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM >Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns > >Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside >almost all federally >owned caves. The exceptions are the tour caves. > >You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state >you are caving in >accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in >that state. > >So what size gun do you pack? > >A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs. > >A 50 caliber ought to do the trick: > >http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg > >I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation. > >So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are >all packing heat. >You get to the cave, suit up, and then what? Do you all leave your >guns in the entrance? >What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding >your guns at you? >So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen. > >Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a >hike to a federally owned cave? A bear ? A mountain lion ? A >wolf or coyote? A fugitive hiding in a cave? > >I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of >the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case. > >I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be >accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to >defend in a situation. > >I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a >"federally-owned" cave. > >But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected? > >I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the >hike, to leave it at the car and locked up. ( This is all >theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! ) > >If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving. If that >failed, then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the >twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt. > >I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave, >or Hidden Cave? Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest >lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time. Right? >Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip? > >David Locklear
