[Therion] Therion Being Discussed on Cavechat.org

[Jonathan Prouty]

Therion came up in a thread on cavechat. Some good points were brought
up that are beyond my ability to respond to. I figured someone more
knowledgeable than me might like to respond. A lot of people read
cavechat and it would be a shame to scare people away from therion for
no good reason.

http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=26=6757=55739

-- 
-Jonny ^v^

[Therion] new beta release 0.5.2

[Jonathan Prouty]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:31 AM, Gilbert Fernandes (mailinglist)
 wrote:

>  I'll change my data to match your requirement.
>  Thanks,
>  Thanks for your great job !

Wow, other software developers would kill to have such agreeable users!

-- 
-Jonny ^v^

[Therion] Hopefully a bunch of new users

[Jonathan Prouty]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 4:52 AM, Bruce Mutton
 wrote:
>  If anyone has already documented a Therion data management system I would be
>  most interested.

My data management approach is similar to the method that Marco
described. I use a combination of filesystem organization and Therion
survey hierarchy to organize my data.

Filesystem organization consists of directories and sub-directories
(or folders and sub-folders, whichever nomenclature you prefer),
nested as deeply as is necessary to sufficiently handle my data.
Typically this consists of a directory representing the area of
interest, sub-directories for individual caves, and then
sub-sub-...-directories for distinct types of data.

Here are a few examples:
The path describing a scanned page of notes might be

'./fox_mountain/pen_fifteen/survey/notes/2006-09-21_a.png'

The path describing some Therion formatted survey data from that same
trip might be

'./fox_mountain/pen_fifteen/survey/therion/2006-09-21.th'

The path describing a picture that was taken on that trip might be

'./fox_mountain/pen_fifteen/pictures/2006-09-21/dusty_climbing_pen15_shaft.png'

Considering that using Therion is only one aspect of documenting a
cave, the filesystem hierarchy is designed to manage much more than
just Therion data. Having descriptive directory names is also very
useful when you are grepping through your data, looking for something
specific.

As far as the Therion data itself goes, I usually create a separate
.th file for each survey trip. This .th file consists of one parent
survey with several subordinate surveys. Centerline data goes in one
survey, splay shots or radiating legs (whatever you refer to them as)
go in a separate survey.

I've been using a single .th file to input and select/deselect
centerline data, splay data, and scrap data for each cave. I've been
doing all my joins and equates in this file, as well. This has worked
well for shorter caves that were surveyed in just a few trips, but the
master .th file quickly becomes unruly for caves that have had
numerous survey trips.

I would suggest having a single file to handle all your centerline and
splay data and a single file to handle all your scrap data. The master
.th file then does not become cluttered with hundreds of joins and
equates. I plan on reorganizing my data in this manner.

I generally have only one thconfig, as well.

Hope this helps!

-- 
-Jonny ^v^

[Therion] color centerlines by map?

[Jonathan Prouty]

I've made some progress in my attempt at having splay legs be colored
differently from regular survey legs, but I'm afraid I've hit a wall.

I've added "-attr splay on" to all surveys that consist of nothing but
splay legs. This makes it necessary that I record splay legs and
regular legs in different surveys within therion. This is a bit of a
pain, but it will work for now.

In order to take advantage of the "splay" custom attribute, I've also
redefined the metapost macro responsible for drawing centerlines:

  def l_survey_cave(expr p) =
pickup PenD;
if known ATTR_splay:
  draw p withcolor green;
else:
  draw p withcolor red;
fi;
  enddef;

The macro works as it should. If a survey has the "splay" custom
attribute (value doesn't matter), the survey will be colored green.
Unfortunately, ALL survey lines are colored green, not just the ones
with the "splay" attribute.

I think this is because internally, therion combines all surveys into
a single object to draw them. Therefore, if any survey has the "splay"
attribute, "if known ATTR_splay:" will return true for the entire
thing. If this is the case, is there any way to limit the scope of the
"splay" custom attribute?

I think using this splay attribute is a nasty hack, considering
therion already maintains meta data that determines whether a given
survey leg is a splay shot or not. Is there a way to check what flags
a station/leg has set from within metapost? Something similar to the
following:

  def l_survey_cave(expr p) =
pickup PenD;
if splay_flag_set:
  draw p withcolor green;
else:
  draw p withcolor red;
fi;
  enddef;

-- 
-Jonny ^v^

[Therion] Splay Survey Legs

[Jonathan Prouty]

Stacho Mudrak wrote:
> Splay legs should work in the latest (todays) snapshot. Could you please try?
>
> Thanks, S.
>   

It worked flawlessly in the windows snapshot. Thank you!

-Jonny

-- 
^v^
 ^v^  ^v^ Take nothing but pictures,
   ^v^ Leave nothing but footprints,
 ^v^ Kill nothing but time.
(**)

[Therion] using XVI as background image

[Jonathan Prouty]

Please disregard the last message, I've discovered the problem. It was, of
course, my fault.

In an attempt to solve a separate issue, I inadvertently created this one.
So I guess I'm going to need help solving my original problem the correct
way :-/.

After creating a scrap using the XVI image as a guide, I can't compile my
map. Here is the error that Therion returns:

therion.exe: error -- trip2.th2 [34] -- survey does not exist --
splay.trip2.clay -- station does not exist -- A10C at splay.trip2.clay

If I go in and manually change all the points to remove the reference to
.clay, i.e. @splay.trip2.clay to @splay.trip2, in both the XVI and the
scrap, it compiles fine and and registers ok, but why should I have to do
this?

I assume this is due to how I have my survey structured. I've attached a ZIP
file of the pertinent files as this is the easiest way to explain how it's
structured.

-JP
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[Therion] using XVI as background image

[Jonathan Prouty]

I'm using an XVI image as the background for a simple scrap. Loading the XVI
works perfectly, defining stations using it works perfectly. However, once I
close the .th2 file and reopen it, the XVI is offset relative to the scrap.

I only generate the XVI image once at the very beginning. I don't regenerate
it every time I compile.

I've attached a screenshot which should be illustrative.

-JP
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[Therion] Splay Survey Legs

[Jonathan Prouty]

Hello All,

I was wondering if there is any specific reason why Survex's "splay" flag is
not supported in Therion? The only way I can get splay shots to not count
towards my total length is by flagging them as surface survey or as
duplicate survey, which is inaccurate. Any ideas?

-Jonny


P.S.
I'm using version 0.5.1 on windows.
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[Therion] error - station point does not exist

[Jonathan Prouty]

On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Roger Johansson  wrote:

>  Hi!
> I'm a beginner in Therion so please be patient :)
>
> I'm drawing a fictious cave in order to learn how Therion works. So far I
> have managed to join two scraps from one .th2 file and surveydata from two
> .th files. The pdf-output didn't look too great however, since an
> underlaying passage isn't hidden when it crosses the upper passage.
>

> I figure this perhaps depends on that there was no station points in the
> scraps?
>

This happens because you need to tell therion specifically where the
passages are in relation to one another. You do this using the 'break'
function. For example, if you include two scraps called 'upper' and 'lower'
in your fictitious map, you should do something like this to make the upper
passage be drawn above the lower passage.

map fictitious
  upper

  break

  lower
endmap fictitious

Everything after the break gets drawn on a lower level.


>
> But when I create station-points in my scraps (I have a xvi background so
> the station names are created automaticly) I can not compile anymore. I get
> an error:
> ***
> D:\Therion\therion.exe: error -- karta1.th2 [11] -- station does not exist
> -- 3
> 
> Pointing to this line in my th2 file:
> *
> point 150.385 330.105 station -name 3
> **
> What am I missing here?
>

You need to make sure you let therion know which survey your station belongs
to. If you have a station named "3" in a survey named "big_cave", you want
call it like this

station -name 3 at big_cave

Hopefully this helps.

-Jonny


-- 
^v^
^v^ ^v^ Take nothing but pictures,
^v^ Leave nothing but footprints,
^v^ Kill nothing but time.
(**)
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[Therion] Centre lines and therion

[Jonathan Prouty]

This is a reply to an ANCIENT post, but I didn't see it answered on the
list, so I figured I would post my solution to the problem of getting scraps
and centerline to easily show up on the map together:


   1. Create a map that consists of nothing but survey data. Make sure to
   give it a unique id.

   2. Create a second map that consists of nothing but scrap data. Again,
   give it an id.

   3. Create a third map that consists of the id of the first map you
   created and the id of the second map you created. Remember that the order in
   which you list the maps determines the order which they'll get drawn on your
   map. This third map needs its own id, of course.

   4. In your thconfig file, make sure you select the third map you
   created. This is where the magic happens.

   5. When you compile this, you should get a map that includes all of
   your finished scraps along with centerlines for everything else!


I hope this helps!!

-Jonny

On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 6:11 PM, Wookey  wrote:

> On 06-09-20 14:15 +0100, Cooper, Ben wrote:
> > I'm new to Therion, but think it is fabulous!  I am just in the process
> > of drawing up our new discoveries in Mendip, UK, and like Andrew am
> > looking at how to include the centreline in the map pdf output.  (It is
> > visible in the model output but not the map).  I have tried including
> > the "survey" in the list of maps (and additionally found that I need to
> > specify the -projection plan option).  However, no centre is visible in
> > the pdf output.  Have I misread your email: is this something the
> > software should already be able to do, in which case what have I missed
> > out of my .th file?
>
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[Therion] modelling a cave in 3D

[Jonathan Prouty]

Hello All,
I just stumbled across this
websiteand thought I
would share with this list since I know some of you are
actively developing software for modelling caves in 3D. In the 'Programming
Codes '
section, the author makes available the MATLAB script he used to generate
his models. The code is freely available and modifiable and seems to be
fairly well commented. I doubt the code itself is all that useful, but
perhaps the algorithms might be. Hopefully it isn't old-hat. At the very
least, there are some pretty renderings!

link: http://research.gg.uwyo.edu /kincaid/3dcave.htm

-Jonny

-- 
  ^v^
 ^v^   ^v^  Take nothing but pictures,
^v^   Leave nothing but footprints,
 ^v^   Kill nothing but time.
(**)
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[Therion] trouble with joining scraps while digitizing an old map

[Jonathan Prouty]

Ok, I'll give that a try. Thanks for the quick reply.

On Feb 12, 2008 11:09 PM, Martin Sluka  wrote:

>
> On 13.2.2008, at 3:43, Jonathan Prouty wrote:
>
> > I have no "fake" data like the instructions suggest.
>
> Just create several "surveying" points in the drawing and add them
> coordinates according to scale of drawing. Theoretically two such
> points for each scrap are enough.
>
> Martin
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>



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^v^   Leave nothing but footprints,
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[Therion] trouble with joining scraps while digitizing an old map

[Jonathan Prouty]

I decided to digitize an old map of one of my favorite caves. The JPG of the
entire original map was too big for therion to load, so I cut it up into
smaller images that will load.Tracing the map and compiling it worked
perfectly for the first section that I digitized (section_1.th2). I moved
onto the second one, traced the old map same as before (section_2.th2). All
that is pretty straightforward.

The problem arises when I try to join scraps from section 2 with scraps from
section 1. The join fails miserably. I tried to follow the instructions from
the wiki (http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php?id=tbe:wiki4#importing_maps),
but it seems the instructions are geared towards joining unsurveyed data
with surveyed data. I don't see how to join unsurveyed scraps with other
unsurveyed scraps. I have no "fake" data like the instructions suggest.

I've included links to an image of a portion of the old map I'm digitizing
and to a PDF that therion spit out. Comparing the two will make the problem
very apparent. I'm sure there is a pretty straightforward solution, I simply
don't know it. Thanks in advance in for the help!

http://www.talkingnerdy.com/jonny/images/slices.png
http://www.talkingnerdy.com/jonny/images/byers.pdf

-Jonny

P.S.
Just in case it wasn't clear, I don't have access to any of the original
survey data. The cave was surveyed in the 60s. I'd be surprised if the
original data still exists.


-- 
  ^v^
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^v^   Leave nothing but footprints,
 ^v^   Kill nothing but time.
(**)
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[Therion] symbol for a stump?

[Jonathan Prouty]

On Feb 12, 2008 3:12 PM, Stacho Mudrak  wrote:

> I am sorry for the late answer,


No problem at all.


> OK - I am not sure, I 100% understand what do you mean by stump and how
> does your symbol for it looks like (is it point, line or area symbol?).


It is an area symbol. The cave isn't that big (it's just a pit), so the
stump can actually be drawn to scale on the map.

What I envisioned was a circle with a relatively thick border (representing
the bark of the tree) with thinner concentric circles inside this
(representing the rings). I've attached a scan of how I sketched it.

Thanks for the help!

-Jonny


-- 
  ^v^
 ^v^   ^v^  Take nothing but pictures,
^v^   Leave nothing but footprints,
 ^v^   Kill nothing but time.
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[Therion] symbol for a stump?

[Jonathan Prouty]

Howdy! Does anybody have any suggestions as to what sort of symbol I 
should use to indicate a stump? It is hanging over the entrance and I 
can't really leave it off the map. I can make a big brown circle, but I 
was hoping somebody has a more elegant solution. Have any of you ever 
run into this before? Thanks!

-Jonny

-- 
^v^
 ^v^  ^v^ Take nothing but pictures,
   ^v^ Leave nothing but footprints,
 ^v^ Kill nothing but time.
(**)

[Therion] Surveying Maze Caves

[Jonathan Prouty]

Hello all,

I very much appreciate all of the advice that you have given on this
project. I have already changed my plans a great bit as a result. I'm sure
that the product will be much better and come around sooner because of this.

One quick question:
What do you think about quickly generating a polygon map using auriga, then
going in and using that map to sketch on top of, then creating a *real* map
in Therion? Are there any insurmountable obstacles introduced by this method
that I'm not seeing (Other than doubling the amount of time spent in each
passage)?

This suggestion violates a couple rules of good practice and introduces the
very real prospect that the sketch may never be completed. The only reason I
even mention it is because of the fact that the local cave rescue squad
would greatly benefit from a decent map. There have been several rescues in
the cave (local kids getting lost, mostly) that have been severely slowed
down as a result of the rescuers having to blindly stumble around, missing
the obvious shortcuts that would have made their movements in the cave much
more efficient.

Perhaps even a working polygon map might help, in the event a rescue happens
before the final map is created. At any rate, just a thought.

As far as the actual mapping goes, I would love to be able to report some
progress, unfortunately, I can't. As it turns out, the cave is embroiled in
a bit of local caver politics. One of the older cavers in my club has been
working on surveying it for the last 10 years or so. Even though no work has
been done on that project for at least 2 years, he is very much against the
idea of "resurveying" the cave, even though that survey hasn't been
finished, and most likely never will.

I am planning on going ahead and surveying it, it has just been greatly
slowed down because of this. What a pain :-(.

Sincerely,
Jonny Prouty

On 12/1/06, Martin Sluka  wrote:
>
>
> On 25.11.2006, at 17:56, Jonathan Prouty wrote:
>
> > Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> One more thing:
>
> usually you need to draw several subtypes of line wall - bedrock,
> blocks, presumed, etc.
>
> There is not the best way how to do it if you start with new line
> each time the subtype of wall line changes.
>
> Try to use to change subtype of wall as change of line point subtype
> instead. Keep the line wall in one piece if possible - the automatic
> joining of wall lines will work much better.
>
> Martin
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
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[Therion] xtherion not responding

[Jonathan Prouty]

It works perfectly now. Thankyou!

-Jonny

On 11/14/06, Stacho Mudrak  wrote:
>
> Could you please try running latest developement snapshot:
> http://therion.speleo.sk/downloads/therion-20061020.tar.bz2
> I am not sure, but I have fixed some issues and I believe it will work.
>
> Regards, S.
>
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[Therion] Link Update

[Jonathan Prouty]

Hello,
I just noticed on the 'Downloads' section of the Therion website that the
Slackware links is broken. The server that I was hosting the packages on has
moved. The old server, juno.utc.edu no longer exists. The new address
follows:

http://zog.utc.edu/~gqv812/therion.html

I'll hopefully be putting up a package for 0.4.0 soon, as well.

As always, Therion is an amazing piece of software and keep up the good
work!

Sincerely,
Jonny Prouty
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[Therion] Therion Packages for Slackware 10.2

[Jonathan Prouty]

Hello All,
This is my first post to the list, so I guess I should introduce myself. My
name is Jonny Prouty, I'm a geology student at the University of Tennessee
Chattanooga, in (naturally) Chattanooga, Tennessee. I've just recently begun
to use Therion and so far I think it's fantastic.

Ok, now for the meat of my message. I've created packages for
Slackware 10.2of the software that is require or suggested in order to
run Survex and
Therion. I made them so that I could easily remove the software in case the
need should arise. They are binary packages, compiled on a fresh Slackware
10.2 install on an IBM Thinkpad A21e (celeron). I have no idea whether they
will work anywhere else. I offer them up just in case they might prove
useful.

If anyone has any luck with these, please let me know.

http://juno.utc.edu/~gqv812/therion.html

Sincerely,
Jonny Prouty
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