[Therion] PDF display

[Bruce]

> But for A1 or A0 posters I give pdf files to the
> print shop. As yet, as far as memory tells me (I have none to hand) they
> look like the Acrobat rendition, but others may have different experiences
> to me.

It is usual for me to have difficulty with print shops having subtle
problems with printing maps - areas in particular.  Even when they display
OK on screen.  Adobe Illustrator I think is what they use.  A solution I
have used for small files is to convert to jpg.  Large files crash any
converter I have, so no overall solution other than to live in hope...

Bruce

[Therion] PDF display

[Footleg]

I see now why I did not upload the example source before. It was using a
compiled Survex .3d file as the source of the survey station positions.

I have sorted that out now, with the required fragment of the cave used in
the example now included in the .th file. The example source project for my
overlapping areas is now in a zip file linked from the end of that section
on the wiki:
http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:externalviewers#examples_of_rendering_differences_between_pdf_viewers

Footleg



On 15 December 2013 22:57, Footleg  wrote:

> Ah, that makes much more sense. I'll see if I can find the once from my
> examples. They will be somewhere as I never delete anything!
>
> Footleg
>
>
> On 15 December 2013 21:54, Wookey  wrote:
>
>> [bloody top-posters - rearranging to make sense]
>>
>> Footleg [2013-12-15 21:29 +] wrote:
>> > Wookey wrote:
>> >> On 15 December 2013 19:30, Bruce <[1]bruce at tomo.co.nz> wrote:
>> >
>> >>> [2]
>> http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:externalviewers#examples_of_r
>> >>> endering_differences_between_pdf_viewers and the commentary above it.
>> >>
>> >> Bruce - that's a very handy page. But it's missing the test therion
>> >> source you used to do the test.
>> >
>> >And as for the Therion source I used to render these, it would have
>> been
>> >whatever the current Windows executable was current at the date I
>> put them
>> >onto the wiki (the wiki history should be able to tell you that).
>>
>> You misunderstand. I don't mean the source code for there therion
>> program, I mean the .th/th2/thconfig source used to generate the images.
>> That's the bit that would make it easy for someone else to run the same
>> tests.
>>
>> Wookey
>> --
>> Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
>> http://wookware.org/
>> ___
>> Therion mailing list
>> Therion at speleo.sk
>> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>>
>
>
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[Therion] PDF display

[Martin Sluka]

One thing more:

I save rendered files as TIFF without compression. The reasons are - there is 
no problem to manipulate with gigabyte files today, the RIP (program to print) 
must raster the vector format or decompress the JPG file. TIFF file is more 
fast. To add appropriate ICC profile is necessary too. Many RIPs are able to 
work with RGB images without any problem, but use the sRGB rather than Adobe 
RGB.

m.

Dec 16, 2013 v 5:56 AM, Bruce :

>> But for A1 or A0 posters I give pdf files to the
>> print shop. As yet, as far as memory tells me (I have none to hand) they
>> look like the Acrobat rendition, but others may have different experiences
>> to me.
> 
> It is usual for me to have difficulty with print shops having subtle
> problems with printing maps - areas in particular.  Even when they display
> OK on screen.  Adobe Illustrator I think is what they use.  A solution I
> have used for small files is to convert to jpg.  Large files crash any
> converter I have, so no overall solution other than to live in hope...
> 
> Bruce
> 
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion

Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka

prodej Hahnemühle DFA 
tisk fotografií, reprodukcí a volné tvorby

Na Rovnosti 2692/21
130 00 Praha 3
tel.: +420 603513640
mail: martinsluka at mac.com
web: http://www.piezografie.cz








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[Therion] PDF display

[Martin Sluka]

Photoshop - raster to image. I use it for years. 

Resolution depends on printer you will use: Canon and HP 300/600 dpi, Epson 360 
dpi. Both for final size!. The reason is print in native resolution of printing 
head and don't make interpolations.

m.


Dec 16, 2013 v 5:56 AM, Bruce :

>> But for A1 or A0 posters I give pdf files to the
>> print shop. As yet, as far as memory tells me (I have none to hand) they
>> look like the Acrobat rendition, but others may have different experiences
>> to me.
> 
> It is usual for me to have difficulty with print shops having subtle
> problems with printing maps - areas in particular.  Even when they display
> OK on screen.  Adobe Illustrator I think is what they use.  A solution I
> have used for small files is to convert to jpg.  Large files crash any
> converter I have, so no overall solution other than to live in hope...
> 
> Bruce
> 
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion

Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka

prodej Hahnemühle DFA 
tisk fotografií, reprodukcí a volné tvorby

Na Rovnosti 2692/21
130 00 Praha 3
tel.: +420 603513640
mail: martinsluka at mac.com
web: http://www.piezografie.cz








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[Therion] PDF display

[Markus Boldt]

Every time i want to print something in a "shop", I ask my printer witch
Printer-profile he will use. May be "Forga" for example. Then I save my File
from Adobe Indesign or Acrobat with this profile. And I will have no
problems with the colors - normaly... 
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all
Greetings 
Markus


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces at speleo.sk] Im 
Auftrag
von Graham Mullan
Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. Dezember 2013 22:47
An: therion at speleo.sk
Betreff: Re: [Therion] PDF display

It's strange, but I thought that the whole point of pdf was that the
document would present in identical fashion across displays and platforms.
Has anyone tried printing from different rendering engines & seeing in what
ways the results differ?

Screen display is all very well, but if you are having printing done,
especially by a print shop whose software you have no control over, how do
you know what the results are going to look like before you have coughed up
the (frequently not inconsiderable) price.

What I do know is that if I export to jpg from, Acrobat then the results do
seem to look the same as the Acrobat rendition & those are what get
incorporated into journals. But for A1 or A0 posters I give pdf files to the
print shop. As yet, as far as memory tells me (I have none to hand) they
look like the Acrobat rendition, but others may have different experiences
to me.

Graham

___
Therion mailing list
Therion at speleo.sk
http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion

[Therion] PDF display

[Bruce]

http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:externalviewers#examples_of_r
> endering_differences_between_pdf_viewers and the commentary above it.

> Bruce - that's a very handy page. But it's missing the test therion
source you used to do the test. If you could add that, then others could
do other tests, on later versions, and on linux viewers, for example.


Wooky, I think those are Footleg's examples.

I put a complete sample dataset in 
http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/examples#all_areas_all_symbol_sets
some time ago. An example attached.

It shows all areas (as at Nov 2012) overlaid with each other and various
lines and symbols in each of the symbol sets - and labelled as well.  It
also indicates the drawing order.

It is messier than Footleg's example, but perhaps more comprehensive.

Bruce
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[Therion] PDF display

[Footleg]

Ah, that makes much more sense. I'll see if I can find the once from my
examples. They will be somewhere as I never delete anything!

Footleg


On 15 December 2013 21:54, Wookey  wrote:

> [bloody top-posters - rearranging to make sense]
>
> Footleg [2013-12-15 21:29 +] wrote:
> > Wookey wrote:
> >> On 15 December 2013 19:30, Bruce <[1]bruce at tomo.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> >>> [2]
> http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:externalviewers#examples_of_r
> >>> endering_differences_between_pdf_viewers and the commentary above it.
> >>
> >> Bruce - that's a very handy page. But it's missing the test therion
> >> source you used to do the test.
> >
> >And as for the Therion source I used to render these, it would have
> been
> >whatever the current Windows executable was current at the date I put
> them
> >onto the wiki (the wiki history should be able to tell you that).
>
> You misunderstand. I don't mean the source code for there therion
> program, I mean the .th/th2/thconfig source used to generate the images.
> That's the bit that would make it easy for someone else to run the same
> tests.
>
> Wookey
> --
> Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
> http://wookware.org/
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
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[Therion] PDF display

[Graham Mullan]

It's strange, but I thought that the whole point of pdf was that the
document would present in identical fashion across displays and platforms.
Has anyone tried printing from different rendering engines & seeing in what
ways the results differ?

Screen display is all very well, but if you are having printing done,
especially by a print shop whose software you have no control over, how do
you know what the results are going to look like before you have coughed up
the (frequently not inconsiderable) price.

What I do know is that if I export to jpg from, Acrobat then the results do
seem to look the same as the Acrobat rendition & those are what get
incorporated into journals. But for A1 or A0 posters I give pdf files to the
print shop. As yet, as far as memory tells me (I have none to hand) they
look like the Acrobat rendition, but others may have different experiences
to me.

Graham

[Therion] PDF display

[Wookey]

[bloody top-posters - rearranging to make sense]

Footleg [2013-12-15 21:29 +] wrote:
> Wookey wrote:
>> On 15 December 2013 19:30, Bruce <[1]bruce at tomo.co.nz> wrote:
> 
>>> [2]http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:externalviewers#examples_of_r
>>> endering_differences_between_pdf_viewers and the commentary above it.
>>
>> Bruce - that's a very handy page. But it's missing the test therion
>> source you used to do the test.
>
>And as for the Therion source I used to render these, it would have been
>whatever the current Windows executable was current at the date I put them
>onto the wiki (the wiki history should be able to tell you that). 

You misunderstand. I don't mean the source code for there therion
program, I mean the .th/th2/thconfig source used to generate the images.
That's the bit that would make it easy for someone else to run the same
tests.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/

[Therion] PDF display

[Footleg]

And as for the Therion source I used to render these, it would have been
whatever the current Windows executable was current at the date I put them
onto the wiki (the wiki history should be able to tell you that). Not that
I think it will make any difference between most recent builds of Therion.
It was the differences in the PDF viewers which the renders illustrate,
rather than differences in Therion builds. I would expect the current
latest release of Therion renders exactly the same PDFs.

Footleg


On 15 December 2013 19:30, Bruce  wrote:

>
> http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:externalviewers#examples_of_r
> > endering_differences_between_pdf_viewers and the commentary above it.
>
> > Bruce - that's a very handy page. But it's missing the test therion
> source you used to do the test. If you could add that, then others could
> do other tests, on later versions, and on linux viewers, for example.
>
>
> Wooky, I think those are Footleg's examples.
>
> I put a complete sample dataset in
> http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/examples#all_areas_all_symbol_sets
> some time ago. An example attached.
>
> It shows all areas (as at Nov 2012) overlaid with each other and various
> lines and symbols in each of the symbol sets - and labelled as well.  It
> also indicates the drawing order.
>
> It is messier than Footleg's example, but perhaps more comprehensive.
>
> Bruce
>
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
>
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[Therion] PDF display

[Wookey]

+++ Bruce [2013-12-14 09:16 +1300]:
> 
> >I have just noticed that Adobe Acrobat and the (unnamed) pdf viewer
> currently opening from Firefox on this machine render coloured files very
> differently. It's not just that the tones are different, but, for example,
> in Acrobat boulders and the passage containing them are the same shade. In
> the other viewer the boulders render a darker tone than the remainder of the
> passage. Same goes for calcite flows, though not, seemingly, for sand.
> 
> 
> Yes, see this page
> http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:externalviewers#examples_of_r
> endering_differences_between_pdf_viewers and the commentary above it.

Bruce - that's a very handy page. But it's missing the test therion
source you used to do the test. If you could add that, then others could
do other tests, on later versions, and on linux viewers, for example.

At least in linux world (but probably on other OSes too) there is a
fairly small number of underlying PDF rendering engines (2 or 3) with a
lot of differet UIs wrapped round them. I would be interested to try the
above on  all the Debian PDF viewers, which will probably a) show which
engine they are using and b) help track down bugs.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/

[Therion] PDF display

[Footleg]

Thanks Martin,

I sent my earlier reply from my phone which had not picked up Bruce's reply
at that time. So I did not know the question had been answered. Interesting
info about that PDF reader bug. I had not seen that before. The example
renderings on the wiki from various readers were generated and put on the
wiki by me, so I knew how things looked. I just did not know why the Adobe
Reader rendered them like that before.

Footleg


On 14 December 2013 21:28, Martin Sluka  wrote:

> Footleg, read, please, that f… wiki first  :). There is exact analysis of
> this problem and it is bug (reported) in Apple PDF rendering engine. PDF
> viewers which use this engine render PDFs generated by Therion incorrectly.
>
> m.
>
>
> Dec 14, 2013 v 9:48 PM, Footleg :
>
> I bet one pdf will show the line under the boulders and the other will not.
>
>
> Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka
>
> prodej Hahnemühle DFA
> tisk fotografií, reprodukcí a volné tvorby
>
> Na Rovnosti 2692/21
> 130 00 Praha 3
> tel.: +420 603513640
> mail: martinsluka at mac.com
> web: http://www.piezografie.cz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
>
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[Therion] PDF display

[Martin Sluka]

Footleg, read, please, that f… wiki first  :). There is exact analysis of 
this problem and it is bug (reported) in Apple PDF rendering engine. PDF 
viewers which use this engine render PDFs generated by Therion incorrectly.

m.


Dec 14, 2013 v 9:48 PM, Footleg :

> I bet one pdf will show the line under the boulders and the other will not.

Martin Sluka - Studio Sluka

prodej Hahnemühle DFA 
tisk fotografií, reprodukcí a volné tvorby

Na Rovnosti 2692/21
130 00 Praha 3
tel.: +420 603513640
mail: martinsluka at mac.com
web: http://www.piezografie.cz








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[Therion] PDF display

[Footleg]

I am almost certain that this is one pdf reader rendering transparency, and
one cannot handle it. The boulders are partly transparent in the Therion
generated pdf, so in the reader which can render this, they will appear
darker due to the passage background colour showing through from underneath
them. Try drawing a border line though the area of boulders but under them
in the scrap ordering. I bet one pdf will show the line under the boulders
and the other will not.

Footleg
On 13 Dec 2013 15:12, "Graham Mullan"  wrote:

> I have just noticed that Adobe Acrobat and the (unnamed) pdf viewer
> currently opening from Firefox on this machine render coloured files very
> differently. It's not just that the tones are different, but, for example,
> in Acrobat boulders and the passage containing them are the same shade. In
> the other viewer the boulders render a darker tone than the remainder of
> the
> passage. Same goes for calcite flows, though not, seemingly, for sand.
>
> Graham
>
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion at speleo.sk
> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
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[Therion] PDF display

[Bruce]

>I have just noticed that Adobe Acrobat and the (unnamed) pdf viewer
currently opening from Firefox on this machine render coloured files very
differently. It's not just that the tones are different, but, for example,
in Acrobat boulders and the passage containing them are the same shade. In
the other viewer the boulders render a darker tone than the remainder of the
passage. Same goes for calcite flows, though not, seemingly, for sand.


Yes, see this page
http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/contrib:externalviewers#examples_of_r
endering_differences_between_pdf_viewers and the commentary above it.

Bruce

[Therion] PDF display

[Graham Mullan]

I have just noticed that Adobe Acrobat and the (unnamed) pdf viewer
currently opening from Firefox on this machine render coloured files very
differently. It's not just that the tones are different, but, for example,
in Acrobat boulders and the passage containing them are the same shade. In
the other viewer the boulders render a darker tone than the remainder of the
passage. Same goes for calcite flows, though not, seemingly, for sand.

Graham