Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au Open System Consultants Pty. Ltd 9 Bulbul Place Currumbin Waters QLD 4223 Australia http://www.open.com.au Phone +61 7 5598-7474 Fax +61 7 5598-7070 Radiator: the most portable, flexible and configurable RADIUS server anywhere. SQL, proxy, DBM, files, LDAP, NIS+, password, NT, Emerald, Platypus, Freeside, TACACS+, PAM, external, Active Directory, EAP, TLS, TTLS, PEAP, TNC, WiMAX, RSA, Vasco, Yubikey, MOTP, HOTP, TOTP, DIAMETER etc. Full source on Unix, Windows, MacOSX, Solaris, VMS, NetWare etc. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump
From: Mike McCauley I've been considering ripping the firmware from the mcu as well. I've not got beyond the consideration stages, but i have all the equipment here at work. When you say that the read option is not available. is this because the chip has protection fuses enabled? Id like to help with the disassembly if you can get the binary dump. Don't worry: when I will be able to dump the firmware I will let it on the public domain. BTW, I have the opportunity to use the IDA disassembler (a friend of mine is a licensed user) so I think the disassembly of the code will be rather good. Any knowledge of a public domain 8051 disassembler which can rival IDA in performance/code analysis? _ Elio. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump
In my opinion you don't need the power of an IDA-class disassembler to process an 8051-like code. The MCS51 family processors have only 128 or 256 bytes of RAM (and at most 64K ROM) and cannot host complex code. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Elio Corbolante elio...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike McCauley I've been considering ripping the firmware from the mcu as well. I've not got beyond the consideration stages, but i have all the equipment here at work. When you say that the read option is not available. is this because the chip has protection fuses enabled? Id like to help with the disassembly if you can get the binary dump. Don't worry: when I will be able to dump the firmware I will let it on the public domain. BTW, I have the opportunity to use the IDA disassembler (a friend of mine is a licensed user) so I think the disassembly of the code will be rather good. Any knowledge of a public domain 8051 disassembler which can rival IDA in performance/code analysis? _ Elio. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump
Don forget the PSD813 :) It provides 128KB Flash and 8KB RAM... so it can be a bit more complicated Regards, Javier El 17/02/2012 11:09, Azelio Boriani escribió: In my opinion you don't need the power of an IDA-class disassembler to process an 8051-like code. The MCS51 family processors have only 128 or 256 bytes of RAM (and at most 64K ROM) and cannot host complex code. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Elio Corbolanteelio...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike McCauley I've been considering ripping the firmware from the mcu as well. I've not got beyond the consideration stages, but i have all the equipment here at work. When you say that the read option is not available. is this because the chip has protection fuses enabled? Id like to help with the disassembly if you can get the binary dump. Don't worry: when I will be able to dump the firmware I will let it on the public domain. BTW, I have the opportunity to use the IDA disassembler (a friend of mine is a licensed user) so I think the disassembly of the code will be rather good. Any knowledge of a public domain 8051 disassembler which can rival IDA in performance/code analysis? _ Elio. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] (no subject)
Azelio Boriani wrote: In my opinion you don't need the power of an IDA-class disassembler to process an 8051-like code. The MCS51 family processors have only 128 or 256 bytes of RAM (and at most 64K ROM) and cannot host complex code. From your answer I infer you have never thoroughly used IDA and its really powerful disassembler engine... _ Elio. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] (no subject)
Yes, never used but no doubt about the power of IDA. My opinion is: you don't need the power of IDA for an MCS51 executable code. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Elio Corbolante elio...@gmail.com wrote: Azelio Boriani wrote: In my opinion you don't need the power of an IDA-class disassembler to process an 8051-like code. The MCS51 family processors have only 128 or 256 bytes of RAM (and at most 64K ROM) and cannot host complex code. From your answer I infer you have never thoroughly used IDA and its really powerful disassembler engine... _ Elio. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump
OK, then maybe there are ROM bank switching as the MCS51 can't execute beyon the 64K limit. It can be very challenging to follow a code that jumps between 64K ROM banks. Moreover the MCS51 has to address the external RAM by massive pointer use (the famous MOVX @DPTR,A and MOVX A,@DPTR instructions) beyond the 256byte internal easier to address RAM. Yes, you need a good disassembler, aware of bank switching and massive pointer use. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.eswrote: Don forget the PSD813 :) It provides 128KB Flash and 8KB RAM... so it can be a bit more complicated Regards, Javier El 17/02/2012 11:09, Azelio Boriani escribió: In my opinion you don't need the power of an IDA-class disassembler to process an 8051-like code. The MCS51 family processors have only 128 or 256 bytes of RAM (and at most 64K ROM) and cannot host complex code. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Elio Corbolanteelio...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike McCauley I've been considering ripping the firmware from the mcu as well. I've not got beyond the consideration stages, but i have all the equipment here at work. When you say that the read option is not available. is this because the chip has protection fuses enabled? Id like to help with the disassembly if you can get the binary dump. Don't worry: when I will be able to dump the firmware I will let it on the public domain. BTW, I have the opportunity to use the IDA disassembler (a friend of mine is a licensed user) so I think the disassembly of the code will be rather good. Any knowledge of a public domain 8051 disassembler which can rival IDA in performance/code analysis? _ Elio. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] nanoseconds in the news
Fascinating article - thanks for the link. I used to supply a lot of GPS/NTP stuff a few years back, and also my first real system sale for this market was to Reuters in the early days of GPS. It used TrueTime products with single channel Trimble GPS + Rubidium (we only had about 8 birds in the sky then). As a back-up to GPS (customer wanted redundancy) we used Omega! We supplied three dual redundant systems for London, New York Tokyo. Fun days! Rob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak Sent: 16 February 2012 17:07 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] nanoseconds in the news Time is money... http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/02/high-speed-trading/ /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3048A software question
Said, are you using the Opt. 311 (MS-DOS) software? I don't know of any more recent versions. To answer your initial question: You can not change anything on the diagram _after_ the measurement, not even the title. The spec lines will be visible only when you have defined them prior to starting the measurement. Regards, Adrian saidj...@aol.com schrieb: Hello team, I am trying to get an HP 3048A system up and running, and I am having problems with enabling spec limit lines on the graph. I can enter the spec line data under the manipulate results then spec lines menu, but the lines I entered are not visible. There are the standard spec lines visible when I do the internal noise floor test, so I know this should work. Does anyone know how to enable these properly? The user manual doesn't talk about this, and it is written for an older version of the software anyway's. Also, I have software version A 01.01 from 1994, does anyone have any more recent software version? Thanks in advance, Said ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL A lot of companies don't provide docs on request because it costs significant money to do so, and provides little bottom line return. Someone has to dig in the files for the old drawings, which are almost certainly marked proprietary (on general principle). Then, they have to through some sort of redaction/release process to make sure it's not dangerous, illegal, or unwise to release it. None of which contributes much to their bottom line, and more particularly, none of this helps the engineer stuck with it get his or her deliverables done on schedule and on budget. Net result is, unless you have a friend in the company who's willing to invest some time for free, it isn't going to happen, if it's not a standard policy. As Paul pointed out, this is probably not perceived as a revenue stream. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
On 2/17/12 7:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote: Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... I think you will find that there's no particular rhyme or reason to documents being available. Contractual obligations are probably way down the list of reasons. More, it's just a company habit (I won't go so far as to say culture). Aglient has such a huge installed base, and lots and lots of HP gear still being used. In their case, it probably saves them money to have it online, otherwise they'd have to have a whole department printing off copies, shipping them, etc. Companies that make components or assemblies (e.g. Wenzel) and who do a lot of custom work are less likely. Wenzel has all their catalog units online, but it would be impractical for them to just publish all the customs.. they'd have to do the export control review and proprietary review, and they're not a very big shop. If you happened to ask when they weren't very busy, they'd probably be more helpful than when they've got a big order they're trying to get out. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I'm an EE manager and buy Agilent equipment whenever I can over other brands. This is strongly influenced by their obsolete equipment manual policy. On 02/17/12, Bill Richesbill.ric...@verizon.net wrote: Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I am not so sure they have a lot of influence on what happens to equipment once they sell it to an OEM (e.g., Motorola). The OEM then incorporates it into other equipment (cell systems) which are sold to cell service providers, which is then scrapped out and sold to scrap dealers. Realistically, I can't see one component supplier having the influence to cause the addition of costs all the way down the line to have to comply with this kind of demand, especially when the end user (the cell service providers) are in other countries such as China. And to impose this demand retroactively to sales? Fat chance; the cell service providers would just tell FEI they are welcome to bid on their scrap like everyone else. Peter On 02/17/12, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
One thing to keep in mind is that FEI is very largely a defense contractor, so their customers, marketing, and motivation are a bit different than the typical business-to-business model. John On 2/17/2012 10:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote: Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP - or do they... 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I think that for many of us, we are both professional and hobbyist Time Nuts and companies that encourage the hobbyist will find it pays of when we make professional purchases. Agilent seems to be learning this lesson as they put more and more manuals for obsolete products on line. Thomas Knox From: mi...@open.com.au To: time-nuts@febo.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:02:28 +1000 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2112/4811 - Release Date: 02/15/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au Open System Consultants Pty. Ltd 9 Bulbul Place Currumbin Waters QLD 4223 Australia http://www.open.com.au Phone +61 7 5598-7474 Fax +61 7 5598-7070 Radiator: the most portable, flexible and configurable RADIUS server anywhere. SQL, proxy, DBM, files, LDAP, NIS+, password, NT, Emerald, Platypus, Freeside, TACACS+, PAM, external, Active Directory, EAP, TLS, TTLS, PEAP, TNC, WiMAX, RSA, Vasco, Yubikey, MOTP, HOTP, TOTP, DIAMETER etc. Full source on Unix, Windows, MacOSX, Solaris, VMS, NetWare etc. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I have been leaning more toward Agilent and away from Tektronix for this very reason. On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:17:54 -0700, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I think that for many of us, we are both professional and hobbyist Time Nuts and companies that encourage the hobbyist will find it pays of when we make professional purchases. Agilent seems to be learning this lesson as they put more and more manuals for obsolete products on line. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] OT: A kit to convert a Tektronix 7T11 to a 7T11A is now available.
I've produced a kit to convert a Tektronix 7T11 Sampling Sweep Unit to a 7T11A (this allows you to use it in a 7854 'scope). I am offering this kit at GBP22.50 (about USD36) plus postage which is GBP 5 to the UK, and GBP10 to the rest of the world. I have PCBs on hand to fulfil 7 orders immediately, and will be ordering more boards RSN. A web page giving full details on the conversion process is at: http://www.perdrix.co.uk/7T11Conversion/index.htm Please contact me direct (off list) to order. Cheers Dave Partridge ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 3048A software question
Hi Adrian, Got the spec lines working now, thanks! Yes, the DOS version. I was hoping for an updated user manual for that version as the manual describes the other software version, and maybe a slightly later sw version. Oh well. Thanks for you help! Said On Feb 17, 2012, at 5:06, Adrian rfn...@arcor.de wrote: Said, are you using the Opt. 311 (MS-DOS) software? I don't know of any more recent versions. To answer your initial question: You can not change anything on the diagram _after_ the measurement, not even the title. The spec lines will be visible only when you have defined them prior to starting the measurement. Regards, Adrian saidj...@aol.com schrieb: Hello team, I am trying to get an HP 3048A system up and running, and I am having problems with enabling spec limit lines on the graph. I can enter the spec line data under the manipulate results then spec lines menu, but the lines I entered are not visible. There are the standard spec lines visible when I do the internal noise floor test, so I know this should work. Does anyone know how to enable these properly? The user manual doesn't talk about this, and it is written for an older version of the software anyway's. Also, I have software version A 01.01 from 1994, does anyone have any more recent software version? Thanks in advance, Said ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump
Hi I'd bet that there's some code in there and some data tables. Without digging in, it's hard to say how big each is. We could easily find that there's 24K of code in the MCS51 and a bunch of tables in the PSD813. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Azelio Boriani Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:06 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump OK, then maybe there are ROM bank switching as the MCS51 can't execute beyon the 64K limit. It can be very challenging to follow a code that jumps between 64K ROM banks. Moreover the MCS51 has to address the external RAM by massive pointer use (the famous MOVX @DPTR,A and MOVX A,@DPTR instructions) beyond the 256byte internal easier to address RAM. Yes, you need a good disassembler, aware of bank switching and massive pointer use. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.eswrote: Don forget the PSD813 :) It provides 128KB Flash and 8KB RAM... so it can be a bit more complicated Regards, Javier El 17/02/2012 11:09, Azelio Boriani escribió: In my opinion you don't need the power of an IDA-class disassembler to process an 8051-like code. The MCS51 family processors have only 128 or 256 bytes of RAM (and at most 64K ROM) and cannot host complex code. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Elio Corbolanteelio...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike McCauley I've been considering ripping the firmware from the mcu as well. I've not got beyond the consideration stages, but i have all the equipment here at work. When you say that the read option is not available. is this because the chip has protection fuses enabled? Id like to help with the disassembly if you can get the binary dump. Don't worry: when I will be able to dump the firmware I will let it on the public domain. BTW, I have the opportunity to use the IDA disassembler (a friend of mine is a licensed user) so I think the disassembly of the code will be rather good. Any knowledge of a public domain 8051 disassembler which can rival IDA in performance/code analysis? _ Elio. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.c om/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tim e-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tim e-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Hi The closest the communications business got to this was back in the days when Motorola would buy back all the used gear. They then carted it all off to a crusher. Without something like that - it all will go to the scrap merchants and be parted out. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:25 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I am not so sure they have a lot of influence on what happens to equipment once they sell it to an OEM (e.g., Motorola). The OEM then incorporates it into other equipment (cell systems) which are sold to cell service providers, which is then scrapped out and sold to scrap dealers. Realistically, I can't see one component supplier having the influence to cause the addition of costs all the way down the line to have to comply with this kind of demand, especially when the end user (the cell service providers) are in other countries such as China. And to impose this demand retroactively to sales? Fat chance; the cell service providers would just tell FEI they are welcome to bid on their scrap like everyone else. Peter On 02/17/12, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Contact FEI Reply-To: n...@verizon.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com I haven't personally tried but others have reported they were somewhat less than cooperative. Peter On 2/15/2012 6:23 PM, Bill Riches wrote: Just curious, Has anyone on this list actually contacted FEI and enquired about a schematic or other info about our 5680 units? They are still being sold by them. 73, Bill Riches, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump
Maybe. Take into account that MCS51 OTP processors usually are 8K of code. I use, among the others, the AT89C55 that has 20K of flash ROM. It seems better to use a ROMless 8051 and place the code/tables in the PSD. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi I'd bet that there's some code in there and some data tables. Without digging in, it's hard to say how big each is. We could easily find that there's 24K of code in the MCS51 and a bunch of tables in the PSD813. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Azelio Boriani Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:06 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump OK, then maybe there are ROM bank switching as the MCS51 can't execute beyon the 64K limit. It can be very challenging to follow a code that jumps between 64K ROM banks. Moreover the MCS51 has to address the external RAM by massive pointer use (the famous MOVX @DPTR,A and MOVX A,@DPTR instructions) beyond the 256byte internal easier to address RAM. Yes, you need a good disassembler, aware of bank switching and massive pointer use. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.eswrote: Don forget the PSD813 :) It provides 128KB Flash and 8KB RAM... so it can be a bit more complicated Regards, Javier El 17/02/2012 11:09, Azelio Boriani escribió: In my opinion you don't need the power of an IDA-class disassembler to process an 8051-like code. The MCS51 family processors have only 128 or 256 bytes of RAM (and at most 64K ROM) and cannot host complex code. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Elio Corbolanteelio...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike McCauley I've been considering ripping the firmware from the mcu as well. I've not got beyond the consideration stages, but i have all the equipment here at work. When you say that the read option is not available. is this because the chip has protection fuses enabled? Id like to help with the disassembly if you can get the binary dump. Don't worry: when I will be able to dump the firmware I will let it on the public domain. BTW, I have the opportunity to use the IDA disassembler (a friend of mine is a licensed user) so I think the disassembly of the code will be rather good. Any knowledge of a public domain 8051 disassembler which can rival IDA in performance/code analysis? _ Elio. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.c om/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tim e-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tim e-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I believe in HPs case a unique situation occurred on the old gear. That is there were and are people at agilent willing to take the time to preserve their history. After all its still pretty fantastic stuff even at 20, 30, and yes I have a piece in the 40-50 years old era. Generally amazingly well built. I do know that when test and measurement was HP their support was top notch both for me professionally and personally. It did effect what I chose to buy for the business. But on the personal side they always helped I was above board about why I was calling. Ahhh for the good ole days. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The closest the communications business got to this was back in the days when Motorola would buy back all the used gear. They then carted it all off to a crusher. Without something like that - it all will go to the scrap merchants and be parted out. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:25 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I am not so sure they have a lot of influence on what happens to equipment once they sell it to an OEM (e.g., Motorola). The OEM then incorporates it into other equipment (cell systems) which are sold to cell service providers, which is then scrapped out and sold to scrap dealers. Realistically, I can't see one component supplier having the influence to cause the addition of costs all the way down the line to have to comply with this kind of demand, especially when the end user (the cell service providers) are in other countries such as China. And to impose this demand retroactively to sales? Fat chance; the cell service providers would just tell FEI they are welcome to bid on their scrap like everyone else. Peter On 02/17/12, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent via Gerald's iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net Date: 16 February 2012 10:58:10 AEDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject:
[time-nuts] Tek to HP conversion... Was: Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
I was a Tek aficionado for many many years. My first personal scope was a tek, my first work scope was a Tek. I've owned at least half a dozen over the decades. The three scopes I own today are Tek. But everything else on my lab bench has changed over to HP (with the exception of a couple of TM5006 mainframes full of specialty plugins). The quality, availability, and most important to me, the consistency of HP gear has been impressive. I've yet to go into a lab where the majority of basic RF equipment, counters, sig gens, spectrum analyzers, etc was not HP. Unless they were lucky enough to have RS. The ability to get manuals, parts, and just plain guidance on the HP gear has been great. Now if I can score an HP Primary or GPSDO standard, I'll be happy. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 1:26 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I believe in HPs case a unique situation occurred on the old gear. That is there were and are people at agilent willing to take the time to preserve their history. After all its still pretty fantastic stuff even at 20, 30, and yes I have a piece in the 40-50 years old era. Generally amazingly well built. I do know that when test and measurement was HP their support was top notch both for me professionally and personally. It did effect what I chose to buy for the business. But on the personal side they always helped I was above board about why I was calling. Ahhh for the good ole days. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
And for the good older days, I have some General Radio equipment, especially precision variable capacitors, made in the late 1920's that I still use for calibration standards. Don paul swed I believe in HPs case a unique situation occurred on the old gear. That is there were and are people at agilent willing to take the time to preserve their history. After all its still pretty fantastic stuff even at 20, 30, and yes I have a piece in the 40-50 years old era. Generally amazingly well built. I do know that when test and measurement was HP their support was top notch both for me professionally and personally. It did effect what I chose to buy for the business. But on the personal side they always helped I was above board about why I was calling. Ahhh for the good ole days. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The closest the communications business got to this was back in the days when Motorola would buy back all the used gear. They then carted it all off to a crusher. Without something like that - it all will go to the scrap merchants and be parted out. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:25 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I am not so sure they have a lot of influence on what happens to equipment once they sell it to an OEM (e.g., Motorola). The OEM then incorporates it into other equipment (cell systems) which are sold to cell service providers, which is then scrapped out and sold to scrap dealers. Realistically, I can't see one component supplier having the influence to cause the addition of costs all the way down the line to have to comply with this kind of demand, especially when the end user (the cell service providers) are in other countries such as China. And to impose this demand retroactively to sales? Fat chance; the cell service providers would just tell FEI they are welcome to bid on their scrap like everyone else. Peter On 02/17/12, paul swedpaulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. In fact I would say you are swatting at the behive. It would be wise to leave them alone since several have reached out and already had a poor experience. As someone else pointed out this is what gets manufactures to demand crushing or drilling holes etc. Further the very hard work being done by this group to understand these units can be at risk if FEI decides to really get cranky. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Steve iteratio...@gmail.com wrote: If the device is reverse engineered and the work made public domain, the device is likely to increase in value on the used market. I've seen this before when proprietary products are reversed. Suddenly they are transformed from black magic, in to something that a community of people may thoroughly discuss, modify, repair, and maintain. This makes a hot, usable device, for years to come. The last big reversing project I worked on dealt in the automotive sector, I made my work available in a rar'd collection of abstract html pages and documents within a directory that was easy to save and pass on. I also encouraged everyone who looked at the document to download it and pass it along. The system operators of the servers where the files were originally located were told to remove the documents due to vague claims of IP violations. The internet archive also removed my work as it was cited for the same IP violoations. So in addition to increasing the value of the device, reverse engineering also brings the very reversing documentation under fire. usenet is a good place to distribute such a document, and it's also a good idea to use several names so that any counter efforts are forced to find all the derivatives. Steve Or worse, they will start requiring their scrappers to use a drill press or punch to render the physics package unusable. I've seen this done locally by hard drive manufacturers- hundreds of pounds of working HDs destroyed on purpose on a regular basis. If they only scrap killed units, no one will want to reverse engineer them. -Dave - Original Message - From: Mike McCauley mi...@open.com.au To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:02:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI Hmmm, Seems they dont realise that their lack of cooperation will lead, not to protecting their product, but rather to the massive, public reverse engineering of it? On Friday, February 17, 2012 05:43:49 PM Gerald Molenkamp wrote: I have written to them on several occasions about 56 Sent
Re: [time-nuts] Tek to HP conversion... Was: Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
With Scopes the company that has impressed me is LeCroy, not only are all their manuals on line, but where they really shine is service prices, their parts and repairs are very very reasonable. Although Agilent, and Tektronix make fine products, I am now exclusively LeCroy. And NO I do not own stock in LeCroy. Thomas Knox Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:44:40 -0500 From: bow...@gmail.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Tek to HP conversion... Was: Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I was a Tek aficionado for many many years. My first personal scope was a tek, my first work scope was a Tek. I've owned at least half a dozen over the decades. The three scopes I own today are Tek. But everything else on my lab bench has changed over to HP (with the exception of a couple of TM5006 mainframes full of specialty plugins). The quality, availability, and most important to me, the consistency of HP gear has been impressive. I've yet to go into a lab where the majority of basic RF equipment, counters, sig gens, spectrum analyzers, etc was not HP. Unless they were lucky enough to have RS. The ability to get manuals, parts, and just plain guidance on the HP gear has been great. Now if I can score an HP Primary or GPSDO standard, I'll be happy. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 1:26 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I believe in HPs case a unique situation occurred on the old gear. That is there were and are people at agilent willing to take the time to preserve their history. After all its still pretty fantastic stuff even at 20, 30, and yes I have a piece in the 40-50 years old era. Generally amazingly well built. I do know that when test and measurement was HP their support was top notch both for me professionally and personally. It did effect what I chose to buy for the business. But on the personal side they always helped I was above board about why I was calling. Ahhh for the good ole days. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] nanoseconds in the news
John, I agree with what you have said about the markets causing bad effects on society because the focus is all short-term, but you are talking about effects on the human time scale. HFT is orders of magnitude faster and more insane. I saved two links from after the time of the 2010 flash crash of the stock market. In addition to some analysis, they both show amazing graphics of what the trading algorithms looked like on the actual market activity. http://www.nanex.net/20100506/FlashCrashAnalysis_Intro.html http://www.nanex.net/FlashCrash/CCircleDay.html On 2/16/2012 2:45 PM, J. Forster wrote: Frankly, I think the rapidity of the financial system is not a good thing. It encourages the kind of speculation on Wall Street that more properly belongs in Las Vegas. It has bred the demands for ever increasing quarter-over-quarter results that result in cooking of the books and so on that deters long-range planning and thinkingt. YMMV, -John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tek to HP conversion... Was: Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Tek went into the toilet when Danaher bought them out. I bought a TDS1002 and could not even get the PC software to download screen images, even after registering. However, registration sure did get me onto their spam list. It took at least a hald-dozed tries to get their spam to stop. I have lusted after Tek since about 1962 and have over 100 of their instruments. The 7000 series and TM500 seriea are masterpieces. But, never again. YMMV, -John = I was a Tek aficionado for many many years. My first personal scope was a tek, my first work scope was a Tek. I've owned at least half a dozen over the decades. The three scopes I own today are Tek. But everything else on my lab bench has changed over to HP (with the exception of a couple of TM5006 mainframes full of specialty plugins). The quality, availability, and most important to me, the consistency of HP gear has been impressive. I've yet to go into a lab where the majority of basic RF equipment, counters, sig gens, spectrum analyzers, etc was not HP. Unless they were lucky enough to have RS. The ability to get manuals, parts, and just plain guidance on the HP gear has been great. Now if I can score an HP Primary or GPSDO standard, I'll be happy. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 1:26 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I believe in HPs case a unique situation occurred on the old gear. That is there were and are people at agilent willing to take the time to preserve their history. After all its still pretty fantastic stuff even at 20, 30, and yes I have a piece in the 40-50 years old era. Generally amazingly well built. I do know that when test and measurement was HP their support was top notch both for me professionally and personally. It did effect what I chose to buy for the business. But on the personal side they always helped I was above board about why I was calling. Ahhh for the good ole days. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tek to HP conversion... Was: Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Yup. Between the 1ghz 7000 series, the DSA602 w 1Ghz plug ins, and the 2236 portable I don't expect I'll ever need to buy another scope. On Feb 17, 2012, at 16:36, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Tek went into the toilet when Danaher bought them out. I bought a TDS1002 and could not even get the PC software to download screen images, even after registering. However, registration sure did get me onto their spam list. It took at least a hald-dozed tries to get their spam to stop. I have lusted after Tek since about 1962 and have over 100 of their instruments. The 7000 series and TM500 seriea are masterpieces. But, never again. YMMV, -John = I was a Tek aficionado for many many years. My first personal scope was a tek, my first work scope was a Tek. I've owned at least half a dozen over the decades. The three scopes I own today are Tek. But everything else on my lab bench has changed over to HP (with the exception of a couple of TM5006 mainframes full of specialty plugins). The quality, availability, and most important to me, the consistency of HP gear has been impressive. I've yet to go into a lab where the majority of basic RF equipment, counters, sig gens, spectrum analyzers, etc was not HP. Unless they were lucky enough to have RS. The ability to get manuals, parts, and just plain guidance on the HP gear has been great. Now if I can score an HP Primary or GPSDO standard, I'll be happy. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 1:26 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I believe in HPs case a unique situation occurred on the old gear. That is there were and are people at agilent willing to take the time to preserve their history. After all its still pretty fantastic stuff even at 20, 30, and yes I have a piece in the 40-50 years old era. Generally amazingly well built. I do know that when test and measurement was HP their support was top notch both for me professionally and personally. It did effect what I chose to buy for the business. But on the personal side they always helped I was above board about why I was calling. Ahhh for the good ole days. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump
Hi I'm more or less guessing that there's a bunch of init data in there, a command processor for the serial i/o, and relatively little actual PLL loop and/or running code. Put another way - once it's up and running it's basically an analog part. If they have a field update option, they could just have a boot loader in the MCS51 and two images of everything else in the PSD813. Lots of possibilities Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Azelio Boriani Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump Maybe. Take into account that MCS51 OTP processors usually are 8K of code. I use, among the others, the AT89C55 that has 20K of flash ROM. It seems better to use a ROMless 8051 and place the code/tables in the PSD. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi I'd bet that there's some code in there and some data tables. Without digging in, it's hard to say how big each is. We could easily find that there's 24K of code in the MCS51 and a bunch of tables in the PSD813. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Azelio Boriani Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:06 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A firmware dump OK, then maybe there are ROM bank switching as the MCS51 can't execute beyon the 64K limit. It can be very challenging to follow a code that jumps between 64K ROM banks. Moreover the MCS51 has to address the external RAM by massive pointer use (the famous MOVX @DPTR,A and MOVX A,@DPTR instructions) beyond the 256byte internal easier to address RAM. Yes, you need a good disassembler, aware of bank switching and massive pointer use. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.eswrote: Don forget the PSD813 :) It provides 128KB Flash and 8KB RAM... so it can be a bit more complicated Regards, Javier El 17/02/2012 11:09, Azelio Boriani escribió: In my opinion you don't need the power of an IDA-class disassembler to process an 8051-like code. The MCS51 family processors have only 128 or 256 bytes of RAM (and at most 64K ROM) and cannot host complex code. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Elio Corbolanteelio...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike McCauley I've been considering ripping the firmware from the mcu as well. I've not got beyond the consideration stages, but i have all the equipment here at work. When you say that the read option is not available. is this because the chip has protection fuses enabled? Id like to help with the disassembly if you can get the binary dump. Don't worry: when I will be able to dump the firmware I will let it on the public domain. BTW, I have the opportunity to use the IDA disassembler (a friend of mine is a licensed user) so I think the disassembly of the code will be rather good. Any knowledge of a public domain 8051 disassembler which can rival IDA in performance/code analysis? _ Elio. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.c om/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tim e-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tim e-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Z3801A......????
Bob- I have a spare that i need to test and make sure all is OK. Any interest? Make me an offer and it's yours after I get time to test is out. -Brian, WA1ZMS On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:56 PM, bownes bow...@gmail.com wrote: ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tek to HP conversion... Was: Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI
Perhaps LeCroy has changed it's spots from the NIM and CAMAC days, but any documentation, like service manuals, was completely unavailable. I tried several times. I am not about to buy anything where at least a schematic is not available. I have never sent an instrument in for factory service, and never will. It's far too expensive. -John == With Scopes the company that has impressed me is LeCroy, not only are all their manuals on line, but where they really shine is service prices, their parts and repairs are very very reasonable. Although Agilent, and Tektronix make fine products, I am now exclusively LeCroy. And NO I do not own stock in LeCroy. Thomas Knox Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:44:40 -0500 From: bow...@gmail.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Tek to HP conversion... Was: Re: Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I was a Tek aficionado for many many years. My first personal scope was a tek, my first work scope was a Tek. I've owned at least half a dozen over the decades. The three scopes I own today are Tek. But everything else on my lab bench has changed over to HP (with the exception of a couple of TM5006 mainframes full of specialty plugins). The quality, availability, and most important to me, the consistency of HP gear has been impressive. I've yet to go into a lab where the majority of basic RF equipment, counters, sig gens, spectrum analyzers, etc was not HP. Unless they were lucky enough to have RS. The ability to get manuals, parts, and just plain guidance on the HP gear has been great. Now if I can score an HP Primary or GPSDO standard, I'll be happy. On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 1:26 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I believe in HPs case a unique situation occurred on the old gear. That is there were and are people at agilent willing to take the time to preserve their history. After all its still pretty fantastic stuff even at 20, 30, and yes I have a piece in the 40-50 years old era. Generally amazingly well built. I do know that when test and measurement was HP their support was top notch both for me professionally and personally. It did effect what I chose to buy for the business. But on the personal side they always helped I was above board about why I was calling. Ahhh for the good ole days. Regards Paul WB8TSL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A......????
Sorry for band width to group! Stupid iPhone! :-) -Brian, WA1ZMS On Feb 17, 2012, at 5:15 PM, Brian, WA1ZMS wa1...@att.net wrote: Bob- I have a spare that i need to test and make sure all is OK. Any interest? Make me an offer and it's yours after I get time to test is out. -Brian, WA1ZMS On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:56 PM, bownes bow...@gmail.com wrote: ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A......????
Oh you are a bad bad man. I'll do some homework and see what a rational offer is, but suffice it to say, I'll probably take it. :) On Feb 17, 2012, at 17:15, Brian, WA1ZMS wa1...@att.net wrote: Bob- I have a spare that i need to test and make sure all is OK. Any interest? Make me an offer and it's yours after I get time to test is out. -Brian, WA1ZMS On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:56 PM, bownes bow...@gmail.com wrote: ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A......????
How does the HP compare to a Thunbderbolt? On 02/17/2012 02:31 PM, Brian, WA1ZMS wrote: Sorry for band width to group! Stupid iPhone! :-) -Brian, WA1ZMS On Feb 17, 2012, at 5:15 PM, Brian, WA1ZMSwa1...@att.net wrote: Bob- I have a spare that i need to test and make sure all is OK. Any interest? Make me an offer and it's yours after I get time to test is out. -Brian, WA1ZMS On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:56 PM, bownesbow...@gmail.com wrote: ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
