Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:52 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz
 wrote:
> I've been using LTspice for schematic capture and simulation at home.  Will
> the PCB CAD tools being discussed (Eagle, DesignSpark, FreePCB, etc.) import
> netlists from LTspice?  Or do folks prefer to do the schematic capture in a
> CAD tool and export that netlist to LTspice for simulation?


LT Spice is basically just the normal Spice simulator with a schematic
capture program acting as a front end.LTspice can export standard
Spice net lists and can save to it's own file format too.  The spice
net lists don't have any graphical information and don't have
footprints.

I find I don't  need to move data from a simulation to a design
program because to rarely simulate exactly the target circuit.  You
usually have to Spice specific stuff components like signal generators
or maybe some parasitic capacitance for realism.  These parts only
exist in a simulation not on the PCB.
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture: KiCad?

[Robert Atkinson]

I've also used KiCAD. The inability to do 100x160mm Eurocards on the free 
version of Eagle was the killer for me. I also have a british program called 
EasyPC.
 
Robert G8RPI.



From: beale 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement  
Sent: Friday, 24 February 2012, 6:16
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture: KiCad?

In case you haven't already had enough suggestions: KiCad is an open-source 
option. It is much less popular/well known than Eagle, but it is free, has no* 
limitations on layers, parts, or board size. Runs on Linux and Windows. All 
design files are in plain text format, hence easy to parse by eye or other 
tools as desired.  There is some learning curve, as with all CAD tools.  I laid 
out this simple decade divider PCB using KiCad:  
http://bealecorner.com/pcb/dd1/  and it wasn't too bad.  It has an active 
user's group list.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-users/  <- user's group mailing list
http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/Main_Page  <- main project page
http://teholabs.com/knowledge/kicad.html    <- tutorial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkQ0nVX1q1k  <- video tutorial

*actually, a maximum of 16 layers, and 44 x 44 inches in size. *Usually* that 
is not a limitation :-)

Like others here, I recommend against "free" single-vendor lock-in tools that 
won't give you Gerber output and easy design portability.

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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

I've been using LTspice for schematic capture and simulation at 
home.  Will the PCB CAD tools being discussed (Eagle, DesignSpark, 
FreePCB, etc.) import netlists from LTspice?  Or do folks prefer to 
do the schematic capture in a CAD tool and export that netlist to 
LTspice for simulation?


Best regards,

Charles




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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[ken johnson]

Hi Jim, for many years (over 20) I have used protel (now altium)
autotrax- not that I am recommending it to you, but it is a very
simple and intuitive program to use and I base my opinion of all the
others on it. All the more modern ones I have tried are, for the most
part, from fairly, to extremely, counter-intuitive.
Until I came across Target 3001.

http://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/ibfwikien/index.php?title=Main_Page

 It took me only a an hour or so to produce my first board with the
free version using the autorouter and schematic capture, which for me
is a very short learning curve! What I was also impressed with is the
3d image of the board which you can rotate to check component
clearances, etc.

Like Bruce, I persevered with eagle for a while, even got some boards
out if, but it was bloody hard work, and about as counter-intuitive as
they come so I gave up on that.

Having said all that, load 'em all on your machine and have a play-
different strokes for different folks.

On 2012-02-24 11:38, Jim Hickstein wrote:
> What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly PCB 
> layout), for
> low-budget homebrew stuff? It's been so long since I did this, I still own a 
> T-square and
> a pile of contemporary relics like rules and triangles. I'll get out my 
> pencil sharpener
> if I have to. But really, this must be a solved problem by now. For less than 
> $300? I only
> need TTL, not striplines or any black magic like that.


-- 
Cheers, Ken
vk7...@users.tasmanet.com.au
www.vk7krj.com

'It seems hard to sneak a look at God's cards. But that He plays dice and uses
"telepathic" methods  is something that I cannot believe for a single
moment.' (Einstein's famous quote on Quantum theory)

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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather on low power CPU/Linux?

[cfo]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:50:00 -0800, John Miles wrote:

>> I still haven't seen the source of LH or serial.exe , any hints ?
> 
> server.cpp and the rest of the Heather sources are in the same directory
> as the .exe, normally c:\program files\heather or c:\program files
> (x86)\heather.  (You basically end up with a copy of my development
> directory in that folder.)
>  
Ahh (oopzz) i never thought of looking there 

> Sorry, what you see is what you get.  A full refund is always
> unconditionally available if the software is not fit for your intended
> purpose. :)

I'll take LH , she's better than money (thanx) :-)

CFO


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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture: KiCad?

[beale]

In case you haven't already had enough suggestions: KiCad is an open-source 
option. It is much less popular/well known than Eagle, but it is free, has no* 
limitations on layers, parts, or board size. Runs on Linux and Windows. All 
design files are in plain text format, hence easy to parse by eye or other 
tools as desired.  There is some learning curve, as with all CAD tools.  I laid 
out this simple decade divider PCB using KiCad:  
http://bealecorner.com/pcb/dd1/  and it wasn't too bad.  It has an active 
user's group list.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-users/  <- user's group mailing list
http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/Main_Page  <- main project page
http://teholabs.com/knowledge/kicad.html <- tutorial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkQ0nVX1q1k  <- video tutorial

*actually, a maximum of 16 layers, and 44 x 44 inches in size. *Usually* that 
is not a limitation :-)

Like others here, I recommend against "free" single-vendor lock-in tools that 
won't give you Gerber output and easy design portability.

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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Scott Burris]

I used Eagle for years, but can't say I really warmed to it.  I recently
changed to DipTrace.  Their pricing model seems to work better for
me (large but sparse boards in Eagle require $$$ license) as it's based
on pin count, not board size.  

It's really hard to quantify usability, but I no longer find myself dreading
drafting a symbol from scratch and things work more like how I would
expect them to work.  I watched their video demo, found that it made a lot
of sense to me, tried it, and was hooked.

http://www.diptrace.com/

Scott

On Feb 23, 2012, at 6:38 PM, John Miles wrote:

>> I'll add another vote for Eagle.  It is a German program written in
>> Unix, and ported to Windows.  Therefore, you select the action
>> first then click on the object of the action.  It takes some getting
>> used to.  There has been a pattern of PC layout companies getting
>> cobbled up leaving you with an orphan program, or an upgrade
>> to some very expensive program.  Orcad and Protel go gobbled up.
>> Eagle did too, but by a distributor, Newark.  They just came out
>> with a new improved version.  You can finally draw arbitrary SMT
>> footprints.  I think that was the major limitation of the old
>> version.  You can of course draw your own symbols any way you like.
>> I have been using Eagle for 5 years now and never looked back.
>> One other drawback of Eagle is that it is difficult to move a design
>> between computers, and there are issues with the way preferences
>> are stored.  If you use a part from a library in a design, you are
>> forever locked into that library.   Many other CAD systems have these
>> issues.  Mentor used to be terrible about having absolute path names, etc.
> 
> It's worth noting as well that Eagle has just moved to a more "open"
> XML-based format for their data files.  Assuming they've done a good job (I
> have no experience with the new version yet), I wouldn't be surprised to see
> it become the lingua franca of EDA, with a lot of third-party support in the
> future.  Eagle is quirky but it's also inexpensive, reliable, and highly
> functional, making it accessible to a lot of users at a lot of different
> levels.  Their new public file formats could be a major selling point.
> 
> I use Sunstone for PCBs myself, but I don't use PCB 123 because I don't want
> the board house to 'own' my data.   In most serious projects you spend a lot
> of time not only drawing schematics and routing traces, but also building
> part definitions and writing various scripts.  This all adds up to a
> long-term commitment to whatever tool you select.  In most cases you should
> use Eagle or another program that can generate standard RS-274X Gerbers, and
> you should always double-check those Gerbers in a third-party viewer before
> hitting the big green button.  The free GEDA Gerber viewer (gerbv) is pretty
> good; there are plenty of others.
> 
> All that being said, Eagle V6 is brand new, and historically it's been
> painful to use brand new major versions of Eagle.  Everything went smoothly
> on a recent project with the last version of Eagle V5, but if you look back
> at CadSoft's support forum posts dating from the initial V5 release era,
> there were a lot of unhappy campers.  The downside of the new XML file
> formats is that migrating back to V5 will be difficult or impossible, so you
> should take some time to be sure that V6 is really ready for your
> application before going with it.  I can't overemphasize how important it is
> to read their support forums to learn what to expect with any new Eagle
> version, and what to watch out for. 
> 
> -- john
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[John Miles]

> I'll add another vote for Eagle.  It is a German program written in
> Unix, and ported to Windows.  Therefore, you select the action
> first then click on the object of the action.  It takes some getting
> used to.  There has been a pattern of PC layout companies getting
> cobbled up leaving you with an orphan program, or an upgrade
> to some very expensive program.  Orcad and Protel go gobbled up.
> Eagle did too, but by a distributor, Newark.  They just came out
> with a new improved version.  You can finally draw arbitrary SMT
> footprints.  I think that was the major limitation of the old
> version.  You can of course draw your own symbols any way you like.
> I have been using Eagle for 5 years now and never looked back.
> One other drawback of Eagle is that it is difficult to move a design
> between computers, and there are issues with the way preferences
> are stored.  If you use a part from a library in a design, you are
> forever locked into that library.   Many other CAD systems have these
> issues.  Mentor used to be terrible about having absolute path names, etc.

It's worth noting as well that Eagle has just moved to a more "open"
XML-based format for their data files.  Assuming they've done a good job (I
have no experience with the new version yet), I wouldn't be surprised to see
it become the lingua franca of EDA, with a lot of third-party support in the
future.  Eagle is quirky but it's also inexpensive, reliable, and highly
functional, making it accessible to a lot of users at a lot of different
levels.  Their new public file formats could be a major selling point.

I use Sunstone for PCBs myself, but I don't use PCB 123 because I don't want
the board house to 'own' my data.   In most serious projects you spend a lot
of time not only drawing schematics and routing traces, but also building
part definitions and writing various scripts.  This all adds up to a
long-term commitment to whatever tool you select.  In most cases you should
use Eagle or another program that can generate standard RS-274X Gerbers, and
you should always double-check those Gerbers in a third-party viewer before
hitting the big green button.  The free GEDA Gerber viewer (gerbv) is pretty
good; there are plenty of others.

All that being said, Eagle V6 is brand new, and historically it's been
painful to use brand new major versions of Eagle.  Everything went smoothly
on a recent project with the last version of Eagle V5, but if you look back
at CadSoft's support forum posts dating from the initial V5 release era,
there were a lot of unhappy campers.  The downside of the new XML file
formats is that migrating back to V5 will be difficult or impossible, so you
should take some time to be sure that V6 is really ready for your
application before going with it.  I can't overemphasize how important it is
to read their support forums to learn what to expect with any new Eagle
version, and what to watch out for. 

-- john



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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Geraldo Lino de Campos]

>
> 
> Jim Hickstein said the following on 02/23/2012 07:38 PM:
> > What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly
> > PCB layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff? It's been so long since I
> > did this, I still own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like
> > rules and triangles. I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have to. But
> > really, this must be a solved problem by now. For less than $300? I only
> > need TTL, not striplines or any black magic like that.
> >
> > I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be. And to make
> > matters worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades
> > (or, really, over plain rectangles where you're expected to know what
> > the part number means). This comes from exposure to Control Data, who
> > were big on it back in the day. I even used to be on the mailing list of
> > the standards committee. I suppose that all sank without a trace? If
> > it's still controversial, I apologize in advance for trolling.
> >
>

I suggest the pair Tinycad + freepcb. Both are free, without restrictions
on size or the number of layers (nowadays, it is next to impossible to use
the fine pitch chips with less then four layers). It is very easy to design
your own symbols in Tinycad, and I suggest you do that. Freepcb has a large
number of standard footprints, and it easy do design your own, if required.
FWIW, I use the batchpcb service for four layers boards - fast and cheap
for small designs.

tinycad.sourceforge.net
www.freepcb.com
batchpcb.com


Geraldo Lino de Campos
gera...@decampos.net
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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Jean-Louis Oneto]

I mostly use Target3001:
http://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/ibfwikien/index.php?title=Main_Page
It's commercial, but there are six different editions starting as low as 
59€, with digital+analog, schematics, PCB, autorouting, simulation, it's 
multilingual (German/English/French), and there is even a free 
evaluation version somewhat limited in PCB size and pins numbers, but 
nevertheless worth trying. They are also very responsive.

I also tried DesignSparks, which is free, but a lot less powerfull.
Just a satisfied user, standard disclaimers apply ! :-)
Jean-Louis

On 24/02/2012 01:52, paul swed wrote:

I favor ExpressPCs free schematic generation and board layout
But Now I have a whole new list to go looking for.
More time-nuts trouble ahead.
Regards
Paul

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Lanewrote:


Good eve,

I must be the exception... I've tried Eagle, most recently about
three months back. I can't stand it. I find it, for my purposes, to be
about as intuitive as a Salvador Dali painting.

I've not yet tried DesignSpark, but it looks very promising.

Personally, I use an old version of OrCAD (9-dot-something, I
think).

Happy tweaking.

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 23-Feb-12 at 18:38 Jim Hickstein wrote:


What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly
PCB layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff?

 

  It's been so long since I did

this, I
still own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like rules and
triangles.
  I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have to.  But really, this must be
a
solved problem by now.  For less than $300?  I only need TTL, not
striplines or
any black magic like that.

I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be.  And to make
matters
worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades (or, really,
over
plain rectangles where you're expected to know what the part number
means).
This comes from exposure to Control Data, who were big on it back in the
day.  I
even used to be on the mailing list of the standards committee.  I suppose
that
all sank without a trace?  If it's still controversial, I apologize in
advance
for trolling.

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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner&  Head Hardware Heavy,
Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with
surreal ports?"


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--
Jean-Louis Oneto
OCA GeoAzur - Avenue Nicolas Copernic
06130 Grasse - France
e-mail: jean-louis.on...@obs-azur.fr


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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Robert LaJeunesse]

Bruce,

You are not alone. After 20 years of OrCAD, currently using 9.1, I agree 
completely. Eagle just seemed...weird. (I should add that I'm a RPN calculator 
fan - where one chooses data before selecting the operator.) 

That said, I will probably learn to use Eagle, as that seems to be the darling 
of the DIY and Sparkfun type folks.

Bob LaJeunesse 



From: Bruce Lane 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Sent: Thu, February 23, 2012 8:36:54 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

Good eve,

    I must be the exception... I've tried Eagle, most recently about three 
months back. I can't stand it. I find it, for my purposes, to be about as 
intuitive as a Salvador Dali painting.

    I've not yet tried DesignSpark, but it looks very promising.

    Personally, I use an old version of OrCAD (9-dot-something, I think).

    Happy tweaking.

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 23-Feb-12 at 18:38 Jim Hickstein wrote:

>What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly
>PCB layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff?

    

  It's been so long since I did
>this, I 
>still own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like rules and
>triangles. 
>  I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have to.  But really, this must be
>a 
>solved problem by now.  For less than $300?  I only need TTL, not
>striplines or 
>any black magic like that.
>
>I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be.  And to make
>matters 
>worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades (or, really,
>over 
>plain rectangles where you're expected to know what the part number
>means). 
>This comes from exposure to Control Data, who were big on it back in the
>day.  I 
>even used to be on the mailing list of the standards committee.  I suppose
>that 
>all sank without a trace?  If it's still controversial, I apologize in
>advance 
>for trolling.
>
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>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with 
surreal 
ports?"


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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[paul swed]

I favor ExpressPCs free schematic generation and board layout
But Now I have a whole new list to go looking for.
More time-nuts trouble ahead.
Regards
Paul

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Bruce Lane wrote:

> Good eve,
>
>I must be the exception... I've tried Eagle, most recently about
> three months back. I can't stand it. I find it, for my purposes, to be
> about as intuitive as a Salvador Dali painting.
>
>I've not yet tried DesignSpark, but it looks very promising.
>
>Personally, I use an old version of OrCAD (9-dot-something, I
> think).
>
>Happy tweaking.
>
> *** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***
>
> On 23-Feb-12 at 18:38 Jim Hickstein wrote:
>
> >What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly
> >PCB layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff?
>
> 
>
>  It's been so long since I did
> >this, I
> >still own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like rules and
> >triangles.
> >  I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have to.  But really, this must be
> >a
> >solved problem by now.  For less than $300?  I only need TTL, not
> >striplines or
> >any black magic like that.
> >
> >I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be.  And to make
> >matters
> >worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades (or, really,
> >over
> >plain rectangles where you're expected to know what the part number
> >means).
> >This comes from exposure to Control Data, who were big on it back in the
> >day.  I
> >even used to be on the mailing list of the standards committee.  I suppose
> >that
> >all sank without a trace?  If it's still controversial, I apologize in
> >advance
> >for trolling.
> >
> >___
> >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >To unsubscribe, go to
> >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
> Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
> kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m
> "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with
> surreal ports?"
>
>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Bruce Lane]

Good eve,

I must be the exception... I've tried Eagle, most recently about three 
months back. I can't stand it. I find it, for my purposes, to be about as 
intuitive as a Salvador Dali painting.

I've not yet tried DesignSpark, but it looks very promising.

Personally, I use an old version of OrCAD (9-dot-something, I think).

Happy tweaking.

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 23-Feb-12 at 18:38 Jim Hickstein wrote:

>What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly
>PCB layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff?



  It's been so long since I did
>this, I 
>still own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like rules and
>triangles. 
>  I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have to.  But really, this must be
>a 
>solved problem by now.  For less than $300?  I only need TTL, not
>striplines or 
>any black magic like that.
>
>I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be.  And to make
>matters 
>worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades (or, really,
>over 
>plain rectangles where you're expected to know what the part number
>means). 
>This comes from exposure to Control Data, who were big on it back in the
>day.  I 
>even used to be on the mailing list of the standards committee.  I suppose
>that 
>all sank without a trace?  If it's still controversial, I apologize in
>advance 
>for trolling.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay

[paul swed]

Hello to the group.
I have to agree with Joe on the addiction. I was the one asking strange
questions about 8 months ago as I glued together the Frankenstein of 5061s.
It used a tube that was given to me by a fellow time-nut that was bad that
however actually had a few more fumes of CS then my 004 tube. I home brewed
a new oven controller to allow me to bake the remaining Cs off. The crazy
thing actually worked kind of barely.
But a great lesson in the actual physics and other wonders. So it still
works but I have to say I now understand why they left them on all of the
time.
Maybe a real tube with 15-20 ua would be a far different story. I suspect
so.
But what are you going to do for a hobby.
Let me know if I can help.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:30 AM, J. L. Trantham  wrote:

> The Ion Pump I is measured as a voltage across a resistor in the +3500 VDC
> supply in the return path from ground.  This supply is capable of providing
> only a small amount of current and will collapse to zero volts if
> overloaded.  Likewise, it can fail for a number of reasons, due primarily
> to
> it's age.  It can be repaired by opening it using a 'torch' to melt the
> solder seal at the bottom.  Keep the heat low, along the bottom.  The 'lip'
> is only about 1/8th of an inch or so.
>
> I have had issues as you are referring to for a number of reasons:
>
> 1.  A CS tube with a short from the +3500 to ground.  Fixed by using the
> +3500 VDC supply to charge a 4 uF 4 KV capacitor then 'discharging' the
> capacitor through the CS tube's +3500 connection to ground (be careful if
> you wind up trying this).
> 2.  Failed +3500 VDC supplies for a number of reasons including an internal
> 'shunt' (not quite a 'short' but becomes as much at high voltage) of the HV
> lead to ground, shorted internal electrolytic on the +18 VDC supply
> Line, and open HV diodes.
>
> The unit I recently purchased has an FTS tube, known to, typically, have a
> very good 'vacuum' and low Ion Pump I.  It is functioning because, when the
> CS Oven turns on, the Beam I goes up, slowly, as it should.  In addition,
> at
> initial turn on, the Ion Pump I went off scale, as it typically does when
> first turned on after a long period of inactivity, then fairly promptly (30
> to 60 minutes) 'pumped down'.
>
> These units are fun to play with but are terribly addicting.  Be careful.
> You might wind up with several.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Azelio Boriani
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:57 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
>
>
> The ion pump current at 0 is not good. At work they bought an FTS4065B
> without telling me before: instead of a very old FTS4065, there is an
> already working PRS50. Anyway if the ion currect is 0 check the HV
> generator
> first. Check this http://www.ke5fx.com/cs.htm on how to try to reactivate
> the ion pump using an external HV power supply.
>
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 5:28 AM, J. L. Trantham  wrote:
>
> > I think so. But time will tell.
> >
> > I also have some units with bad tubes and this looks promising.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
> > On Behalf Of Tom Knox
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:20 PM
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
> >
> >
> > It sounds like you hit a home run Joe. If the tube is good the rest
> > should be easy. There are quite a few clean clocks with only a bad
> > tube.
> >
> > Thomas Knox
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: jlt...@att.net
> > > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:15:59 -0600
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
> > >
> > > I purchased a 5061A with all parts installed and with the FTS tube.
> > > The 5061B with the FTS tube was listed later and sold.
> > >
> > > The unit seems to operate with good Beam I, good 2nd Harmonic, and
> > > almost zero Ion Pump I but it will not 'lock'.  I have not had a
> > > chance to look into it yet but I suspect an issue with the A7 or the
> > > A8 assemblies.
> > >
> > > If anyone is interested, I'll keep you informed.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
> > > On Behalf Of Dave Welch
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:09 PM
> > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
> > >
> > > Hi all.
> > > I PURCHASED THE FTS UNITS AND ONE OF THE HP5061a. Havent had time to
> > > look at them but one of the fts powers up but i dont have any docs
> > > to figure
> > out
> > > what os wrong..it says ion current is 0.
> > > Should this be that low??
> > > On Feb 22, 2012 3:21 PM, "Tom Knox"  wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The same seller also had some 5061B's and FTS 4065A's a

Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Mike McCauley]

Hi,

Comments on their downloads page indicate that it runs under Wine. I havent 
tried it though.

Cheers.

On Thursday, February 23, 2012 05:18:06 PM Chris Albertson wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Elio Corbolante  wrote:
> > DesignSpark PCB: http://www.designspark.com/knowledge/pcb
> > Being free and having no limitations like Eagle
> 
> This looks interesting but the download is a .exe file for Windows
> 
> Does anyone know if it works with Wine?   Yes I know I could try and
> see but many times it takes many hours to find problems.
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Mike McCauley   mi...@open.com.au
Open System Consultants Pty. Ltd
9 Bulbul Place Currumbin Waters QLD 4223 Australia   http://www.open.com.au
Phone +61 7 5598-7474   Fax   +61 7 5598-7070

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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Rick Karlquist]

Jim Hickstein wrote:
> What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly PCB
>
> worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades (or, really,
> over
> plain rectangles where you're expected to know what the part number
> means).
>

I'll add another vote for Eagle.  It is a German program written in
Unix, and ported to Windows.  Therefore, you select the action
first then click on the object of the action.  It takes some getting
used to.  There has been a pattern of PC layout companies getting
cobbled up leaving you with an orphan program, or an upgrade
to some very expensive program.  Orcad and Protel go gobbled up.
Eagle did too, but by a distributor, Newark.  They just came out
with a new improved version.  You can finally draw arbitrary SMT
footprints.  I think that was the major limitation of the old
version.  You can of course draw your own symbols any way you like.
I have been using Eagle for 5 years now and never looked back.
One other drawback of Eagle is that it is difficult to move a design
between computers, and there are issues with the way preferences
are stored.  If you use a part from a library in a design, you are
forever locked into that library.   Many other CAD systems have these
issues.  Mentor used to be terrible about having absolute path names, etc.

Rick N6RK


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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Elio Corbolante  wrote:
> DesignSpark PCB: http://www.designspark.com/knowledge/pcb
> Being free and having no limitations like Eagle

This looks interesting but the download is a .exe file for Windows

Does anyone know if it works with Wine?   Yes I know I could try and
see but many times it takes many hours to find problems.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Schematics and scans

[paul swed]

Amazing teamwork and effort.
Thanks for your hard work.
Regards
Paul

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Elio Corbolante  wrote:

> Thanks to Ignacio (EB4APL) and the generosity of Mike Harrison, today I
> received a PCB of a disassembled FE5680A.
> I provided to make some scans of the board at 2400DPI resolution: the
> picture size is about 7700x11500 pixel (9MB)
>
> Top face (with and without ICs):
> 
> <
> http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE-5680A_Top001_noIC.jpg
> >
>
> Bottom face (with and without ICs):
> 
> <
>
> http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE-5680A_Bottom001_noIC.jpg
> >
>
> Being able to remove the ICs, I was able to correct some flaws in the
> previous schematics:
> <
>
> http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE-5680A_schematics_v0.2.pdf
> >
>
> During the next week I will continue to write down the logical part of the
> circuit and I hope will be able to dump the 8032 firmware
>
> _ Elio.
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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Elio Corbolante]

DesignSpark PCB: http://www.designspark.com/knowledge/pcb
Being free and having no limitations like Eagle, I think you can try it...
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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[John Ackermann N8UR]

There are a bunch of choices, some free and some limited to working with 
a certain PCB shop, but I like Eagle (http://www.cadsoftusa.com) 
because, among other things, it's cross-platform running on Windows, 
Mac, and Linux (I use the Linux version).  There's a free version and a 
couple of steps of paid versions which allow larger board sizes and more 
layers.


John

Jim Hickstein said the following on 02/23/2012 07:38 PM:

What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly
PCB layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff? It's been so long since I
did this, I still own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like
rules and triangles. I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have to. But
really, this must be a solved problem by now. For less than $300? I only
need TTL, not striplines or any black magic like that.

I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be. And to make
matters worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades
(or, really, over plain rectangles where you're expected to know what
the part number means). This comes from exposure to Control Data, who
were big on it back in the day. I even used to be on the mailing list of
the standards committee. I suppose that all sank without a trace? If
it's still controversial, I apologize in advance for trolling.

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[time-nuts] FE-5680A Schematics and scans

[Elio Corbolante]

Thanks to Ignacio (EB4APL) and the generosity of Mike Harrison, today I
received a PCB of a disassembled FE5680A.
I provided to make some scans of the board at 2400DPI resolution: the
picture size is about 7700x11500 pixel (9MB)

Top face (with and without ICs):



Bottom face (with and without ICs):

<
http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE-5680A_Bottom001_noIC.jpg
>

Being able to remove the ICs, I was able to correct some flaws in the
previous schematics:
<
http://www.rhodiatoce.com/pics/time-nuts/FE-5680A/FE-5680A_schematics_v0.2.pdf
>

During the next week I will continue to write down the logical part of the
circuit and I hope will be able to dump the 8032 firmware

_ Elio.
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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:46 PM,   wrote:
> Nowadays you can simply download the design software for free from the fab
> houses.

Yes, but in many cases these have problems like (1) They save the
design in a format that forces to to use ONLY that fab house to make
the PCB.   You really, really want to be able to save in a standard
file format and (2) many of these programs only run on Windows so you
can notshare your designs except to Windows users.

Basically just watch out that many of these "free" programs only run
in a closed environment.   The better software lets you save the
schematic to several different industry standard formats formats


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Azelio Boriani]

Ops, yes, 2MHz is a little narrow. 20MHz is better...

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:28 AM, Attila Kinali  wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:53:49 -0600
> David  wrote:
>
> > How do modern DSOs handle that?  I guess it would explain why I have
> > been told their front end calibration is so arduous.  If you lose the
> > calibration constants somehow, you might as well throw the
> > oscilloscope away.  Do any support user recalibration?
>
> There are lots of companies offering oscilloscope callibration.
> But it's damn expensive. For the 1Gsps oscilloscope we have at
> work, it costs around 2000 CHF IIRC. And those beasts have to be
> callibrated every two years (if we'd do qualification measurments,
> that would be even more often).
>
>Attila Kinali
>
> --
> Why does it take years to find the answers to
> the questions one should have asked long ago?
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Jim Hickstein  wrote:
> What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly PCB
> layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff?

"Eagle" is popular.  It is a commercial product but there is a free
version that limits you to "smallish" PCBs.  If you out grow it the
next step up is not that much more than free.
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/

here is a very complete, if not up to date list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_EDA_software

Of the free systems gEDA and KiCAD have large active user bases.


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Robert Darlington]

Eagle all the way.  It's free and the documentation is good enough to
get you by.  There is a huge hobbiest following as well if you get
stuck.   Definitely read the tutorial on creating parts. It'll be
nearly impossible to wing.

The free version has some limits.  80mmx100mm boards, 2 layers, and I
think 2 schematic sheets.

-Bob



On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 5:46 PM,   wrote:
> Nowadays you can simply download the design software for free from the fab
> houses.
>
> Try PCB 123 from sunstone.com
>
> Good shop, reasonable prices for quick protos.
>
> bye,
> Said
>
>
> In a message dated 2/23/2012 16:39:12 Pacific Standard Time, j...@jxh.com
> writes:
>
> What do  people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly PCB
>
> layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff?  It's been so long since I  did
> this, I
> still own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like  rules and
> triangles.
> I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have  to.  But really, this must be a
> solved problem by now.  For less  than $300?  I only need TTL, not
> striplines or
> any black magic like  that.
>
> I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be.   And to make
> matters
> worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over  shovels-and-spades (or, really,
> over
> plain rectangles where you're  expected to know what the part number
> means).
> This comes from exposure to  Control Data, who were big on it back in the
> day.  I
> even used to be  on the mailing list of the standards committee.  I suppose
> that
> all  sank without a trace?  If it's still controversial, I apologize in
> advance
> for  trolling.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[SAIDJACK]

Nowadays you can simply download the design software for free from the fab  
houses.
 
Try PCB 123 from sunstone.com
 
Good shop, reasonable prices for quick protos.
 
bye,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 2/23/2012 16:39:12 Pacific Standard Time, j...@jxh.com  
writes:

What do  people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly PCB 
 
layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff?  It's been so long since I  did 
this, I 
still own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like  rules and 
triangles. 
I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have  to.  But really, this must be a 
solved problem by now.  For less  than $300?  I only need TTL, not 
striplines or 
any black magic like  that.

I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be.   And to make 
matters 
worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over  shovels-and-spades (or, really, 
over 
plain rectangles where you're  expected to know what the part number 
means). 
This comes from exposure to  Control Data, who were big on it back in the 
day.  I 
even used to be  on the mailing list of the standards committee.  I suppose 
that 
all  sank without a trace?  If it's still controversial, I apologize in  
advance 
for  trolling.

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Re: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Tom Holmes]

Jim...

There is a free package called Eagleware that you might find suitable. Or
maybe it is just Eagle; it's been a while.

A little quality time with Google should find it for you easily. It is for
Windows, but there might be a Mac version as well.

Tom Holmes, N8ZM
Tipp City, OH
EM79


> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Jim Hickstein
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:39 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?
> 
> What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly PCB
> layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff?  It's been so long since I did
this, I still
> own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like rules and triangles.
>   I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have to.  But really, this must be
a solved
> problem by now.  For less than $300?  I only need TTL, not striplines or
any black
> magic like that.
> 
> I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be.  And to make
matters
> worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades (or, really,
over
> plain rectangles where you're expected to know what the part number
means).
> This comes from exposure to Control Data, who were big on it back in the
day.  I
> even used to be on the mailing list of the standards committee.  I suppose
that all
> sank without a trace?  If it's still controversial, I apologize in advance
for trolling.
> 
> ___
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[time-nuts] Schematic capture, anyone?

[Jim Hickstein]

What do people use these days for schematic capture (and just possibly PCB 
layout), for low-budget homebrew stuff?  It's been so long since I did this, I 
still own a T-square and a pile of contemporary relics like rules and triangles. 
 I'll get out my pencil sharpener if I have to.  But really, this must be a 
solved problem by now.  For less than $300?  I only need TTL, not striplines or 
any black magic like that.


I'm a Mac shop, but can of course run Windows if need be.  And to make matters 
worse, I prefer ANSI logic symbology over shovels-and-spades (or, really, over 
plain rectangles where you're expected to know what the part number means). 
This comes from exposure to Control Data, who were big on it back in the day.  I 
even used to be on the mailing list of the standards committee.  I suppose that 
all sank without a trace?  If it's still controversial, I apologize in advance 
for trolling.


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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:53:49 -0600
David  wrote:

> How do modern DSOs handle that?  I guess it would explain why I have
> been told their front end calibration is so arduous.  If you lose the
> calibration constants somehow, you might as well throw the
> oscilloscope away.  Do any support user recalibration?

There are lots of companies offering oscilloscope callibration.
But it's damn expensive. For the 1Gsps oscilloscope we have at
work, it costs around 2000 CHF IIRC. And those beasts have to be
callibrated every two years (if we'd do qualification measurments,
that would be even more often).

Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[David]

If the bandwidth is really limited to 2 MHz, that is a rise and fall
time of 175ns.  Some of those PPS signals are barely wider than that.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 22:26:47 +0100, Azelio Boriani
 wrote:

>Yes, in my opinion the connectors are MCX and I totally agree with Attila
>about the 20MHz limit. Nice toy to just take a look at low speed signals,
>for example GPSDOs 10MHz and PPS, serial lines and so on.
>
>On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:01:18 -
>> "Rob Kimberley"  wrote:
>>
>> > I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone
>> in
>> > the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off
>> topic,
>> > but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in
>> our
>> > mutual hobby.
>>
>> It depends what you want to use it for. If you just want to have
>> something protable that can show you roughly what's going on,
>> then this might be a good thing. For anything else, especially
>> measurements,
>> i wouldnt trust it further than i can throw it.
>>
>> It's actually quite nice that they put the schematics online too,
>> so their claims can be verified.
>>
>> First that jumps out is that they are using a AD9288-40 as ADC.
>> Note the -40 there? It means it's an 40Msps ADC. Ie the maximum
>> usable BW you can have is 20MHz (actually a bit lower). The analog
>> circuitry doesn't seem too bright either, but i guess you should be
>> able to get the 20MHz. I havent checked the exact circuitry so
>> i cannot say whether the input circuit does filter at 20MHz. But
>> as they claim to have 72MHz analog bandwidth, i would be very carefull
>> about aliasing problems
>>
>> The input circuitry isn't very impressive either and has an undefined
>> input capacitance (there is a trimmer there) somwhere between 5pF and 30pF
>> (plus stray capacitances). I find it a it strange, that they disconnect one
>> input of the frontend opamp... it might anything from going into saturation
>> to start bouncing around...
>> The analog switches are rather on the cheap side, nothing you'd expect
>> in an DSO, but well.. for that price :-)
>>
>> Also notice that the connectors used look like SMB or MCX antenna
>> connectors. Ie those would not be able to withstand many mating/break
>> cycles.
>>
>> Overall, i'd say a good portable gauge, but not much more.
>>
>> For a more indepth analysis i'd have to take the schematics apart
>> into a readable format...
>>
>>Attila Kinali
>>
>> --
>> Why does it take years to find the answers to
>> the questions one should have asked long ago?
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[David]

Switched gain stages mean the bandwidth and transient response before
the ADC is going to change with different sensitivities unless both
are significantly limited which apparently is the case.

How do modern DSOs handle that?  I guess it would explain why I have
been told their front end calibration is so arduous.  If you lose the
calibration constants somehow, you might as well throw the
oscilloscope away.  Do any support user recalibration?

I agree that the floating input is a problem.  Maybe they got lucky
with that specific operational amplifier.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:25:51 -0800 (PST), Robert LaJeunesse
 wrote:

>FWIW Rigol pushes their 40MHz Analog Devices part to 100 MHz without any 
>problem 
>(seen in eevblog teardown). Yes it's sort of cheating, but if the part works 
>fine because all of the suppliers parts now yeild that fast due to an improved 
>process well, it saves a few dollars / quid / drachma...
>
>And the 40MSPS is over full temp range, likely this is not a problem for the 
>DSO 
>203 which has NO temp rating.
>
>Yes the "72MHz analog" channel rating makes no sense for something sampling at 
>72MSPS, Nyquist says you get at most 36 MHz bandwith. I saw no anti-aliasing 
>filter (well, C9 or C11 and C73 do some roll off) so who knows what the screen 
>will actually show. Might make a decent 10MHz scope, at which point the use of 
>FET solid-state relays doesn't concern me so much.
>
>I was surprised that they use trimmers on the input to match the channels, 
>that's a nice touch but does add some loading. The U1B op-amp is disconnected 
>for higher input voltage ranges so it doesn't overload and distort the signal, 
>which is processed by the U1A amp for those ranges. Perhaps not good that the 
>U1B input is left effectively floating.
>
>
>From: Attila Kinali 
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
>Sent: Thu, February 23, 2012 3:49:49 PM
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope
>
>On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:01:18 -
>"Rob Kimberley"  wrote:
>
>> I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
>> the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off topic,
>> but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in our
>> mutual hobby.
>
>It depends what you want to use it for. If you just want to have
>something protable that can show you roughly what's going on,
>then this might be a good thing. For anything else, especially measurements,
>i wouldnt trust it further than i can throw it.
>
>It's actually quite nice that they put the schematics online too,
>so their claims can be verified.
>
>First that jumps out is that they are using a AD9288-40 as ADC.
>Note the -40 there? It means it's an 40Msps ADC. Ie the maximum
>usable BW you can have is 20MHz (actually a bit lower). The analog
>circuitry doesn't seem too bright either, but i guess you should be
>able to get the 20MHz. I havent checked the exact circuitry so
>i cannot say whether the input circuit does filter at 20MHz. But
>as they claim to have 72MHz analog bandwidth, i would be very carefull
>about aliasing problems
>
>The input circuitry isn't very impressive either and has an undefined
>input capacitance (there is a trimmer there) somwhere between 5pF and 30pF
>(plus stray capacitances). I find it a it strange, that they disconnect one
>input of the frontend opamp... it might anything from going into saturation
>to start bouncing around... 
>The analog switches are rather on the cheap side, nothing you'd expect
>in an DSO, but well.. for that price :-)
>
>Also notice that the connectors used look like SMB or MCX antenna
>connectors. Ie those would not be able to withstand many mating/break
>cycles.
>
>Overall, i'd say a good portable gauge, but not much more.
>
>For a more indepth analysis i'd have to take the schematics apart
>into a readable format... 
>
>            Attila Kinali

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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather on low power CPU/Linux?

[John Miles]

> I still haven't seen the source of LH or serial.exe , any hints ?

server.cpp and the rest of the Heather sources are in the same directory as
the .exe, normally c:\program files\heather or c:\program files
(x86)\heather.  (You basically end up with a copy of my development
directory in that folder.)
 
> Please point me to a zip or tgz , not a windows installer

Sorry, what you see is what you get.  A full refund is always
unconditionally available if the software is not fit for your intended
purpose. :)

-- john, KE5FX



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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Dale J. Robertson]

I own one of these that I bought directly from Seeed Studios. Seeed also 
sells some very inexpensive MCX-BNC females for use with these as well 
as 1x-10x probes with mcx connectors. I have had their single channel 
version (DSO Nano) for a while and have found it handy. The DSO Quad has 
a considerably more complicated user interface.
On the plus side the device is all open source and has several people 
developing software for it.

This most definitely should NOT be your only oscilloscope.
Dale NV8U

On 2/23/2012 3:01 PM, Rob Kimberley wrote:

I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off topic,
but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in our
mutual hobby.

Thanks for reading.

Rob Kimberley




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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Hal Murray]

> Actually, undersampling does use the alias effect to bring down the RF
> carrier. That is, the direct sampling radio concept cannot avoid the
> aliasing: it is exploited to avoid, for example, to sample a 2GHz carrier
> modulated with a 20MHz signal with a 4Gsample/second ADC (by the way, does
> it exist?). A simple 20Msample/second ADC would be enough...

The trick is that Nyquist still holds.  You can capture a 1 GHz signal with a 
40 MHz ADC as long as the signal bandwidth is only 20 MHz.

It may get tricky to build an anti-aliasing filter with those parameters.

As Jim said, the analog front end and sample-hold needs the raw bandwidth and 
the clock driving the sample-hold needs good accuracy.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[David]

Sampling oscilloscopes and digital storage oscilloscopes that support
equivalent time sampling do this very thing.  My Tektronix 2230 with a
20 MS/sec flash converter has a bandwidth of 100 MHz and a 2 GS/sec
equivalent time sampling rate.  A 7854 with a 500 kS/sec sampler (at
10 or 11 bits) and is good to at least 400 MHz.  A 7T11 samples at 50
kS/sec but has a 14 GHz bandwidth with an S-4 sampling head.

All of the above examples rely on repetitive signals and use one or
another form of time to voltage conversion.  The 2230 directly
measures the time difference between the trigger and sample clock with
a time to voltage converter.  The 7854 simultaneously samples the
signal and the sweep.  The 7T11 sequentially or randomly triggers the
sampler at different sweep positions.

The DS203 is relying on digital triggering after the ADC so equivalent
time sampling is possible but subject to aliasing of the reconstructed
trigger waveform itself.  I presume each acquisition record is aligned
with the waveform record before being merged.  Some more recent high
performance DSOs work this way.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:22:01 +0100, Azelio Boriani
 wrote:

>Actually, undersampling does use the alias effect to bring down the RF
>carrier. That is, the direct sampling radio concept cannot avoid the
>aliasing: it is exploited to avoid, for example, to sample a 2GHz carrier
>modulated with a 20MHz signal with a 4Gsample/second ADC (by the way, does
>it exist?). A simple 20Msample/second ADC would be enough. Yes, to analyze
>an analog signal in real time I doubt you can use this method, if the
>signal is periodic maybe... you can advance the sampling trigger a bit,
>cycle by cycle, and reconstruct the whole signal after this little amount
>has covered a full cycle.
>
>On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:56 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:
>
>> On 2/23/12 1:25 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW Rigol pushes their 40MHz Analog Devices part to 100 MHz without any
>>> problem
>>> (seen in eevblog teardown). Yes it's sort of cheating, but if the part
>>> works
>>> fine because all of the suppliers parts now yeild that fast due to an
>>> improved
>>> process well, it saves a few dollars / quid / drachma...
>>>
>>> And the 40MSPS is over full temp range, likely this is not a problem for
>>> the DSO
>>> 203 which has NO temp rating.
>>>
>>> Yes the "72MHz analog" channel rating makes no sense for something
>>> sampling at
>>> 72MSPS, Nyquist says you get at most 36 MHz bandwith.
>>>
>>
>> That doesn't mean you couldn't use a sampler running at, say, 50 MSPS to
>> look at a 110 MHz signal (something we actually do in a radio).
>>
>> There are lots of ADCs out there that have RF bandwidths of much more than
>> the sample rate, intended for use in direct sampling receivers. What
>> performance really depends on is how good the sample/hold or track/hold is
>> and what the sample jitter is.  (and of course, whether there's a stage in
>> front to keep unexpected signals from aliasing in)
>>
>> There are several ADCs out there that have GHz bandwidths and max sample
>> rates in the 100MSPS range.

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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Jim Lux]

On 2/23/12 2:22 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

Actually, undersampling does use the alias effect to bring down the RF
carrier. That is, the direct sampling radio concept cannot avoid the
aliasing: it is exploited to avoid, for example, to sample a 2GHz carrier
modulated with a 20MHz signal with a 4Gsample/second ADC (by the way, does
it exist?). A simple 20Msample/second ADC would be enough.


Well.. a 40 MSPS ADC for a 20 MHz wide signal, but yes.

There *are* multi Gsample/second ADCs out there.  ADC12D1800, 12 bit, 
3.6 GSPS.

ADS5400 12 bit 1GSPS
etc



 Yes, to analyze

an analog signal in real time I doubt you can use this method, if the
signal is periodic maybe... you can advance the sampling trigger a bit,
cycle by cycle, and reconstruct the whole signal after this little amount
has covered a full cycle.

That's the way the "sampling head" used for microwaves works (back in 
the day, when tunnel diodes were a new and exotic thing, for instance). 
Still used to today on scopes where they call it things like "equivalent 
time sampling"...


basically a real fast sample and hold, and a not so fast ADC.


There's also clever schemes with fast S/H and multiple interleaved 
ADCs.. but accounting for the tracking errors between ADCs is always a 
chore.


And, various "sub-band-coding" approaches where you subdivide the 
frequency into sub-bands, digitize them in parallel and do fancy math to 
recombine it into a single stream of samples.  If the channelization and 
ADC clocks are cleverly chosen and derived from the same reference, you 
can do quite well (& compensate for differences among ADCs)



The high performance radar processing world is full of this kind of 
thing (look up STAP: space/time adaptive processing).



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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Orin Eman]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> Actually, undersampling does use the alias effect to bring down the RF
> carrier. That is, the direct sampling radio concept cannot avoid the
> aliasing: it is exploited to avoid, for example, to sample a 2GHz carrier
> modulated with a 20MHz signal with a 4Gsample/second ADC (by the way, does
> it exist?). A simple 20Msample/second ADC would be enough. Yes, to analyze
> an analog signal in real time I doubt you can use this method, if the
> signal is periodic maybe... you can advance the sampling trigger a bit,
> cycle by cycle, and reconstruct the whole signal after this little amount
> has covered a full cycle.
>

Yes.  See for example, the description on this (and the seller's other
similar) ebay item(s): 260955742514

Orin.
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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Azelio Boriani]

Actually, undersampling does use the alias effect to bring down the RF
carrier. That is, the direct sampling radio concept cannot avoid the
aliasing: it is exploited to avoid, for example, to sample a 2GHz carrier
modulated with a 20MHz signal with a 4Gsample/second ADC (by the way, does
it exist?). A simple 20Msample/second ADC would be enough. Yes, to analyze
an analog signal in real time I doubt you can use this method, if the
signal is periodic maybe... you can advance the sampling trigger a bit,
cycle by cycle, and reconstruct the whole signal after this little amount
has covered a full cycle.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:56 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:

> On 2/23/12 1:25 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>
>> FWIW Rigol pushes their 40MHz Analog Devices part to 100 MHz without any
>> problem
>> (seen in eevblog teardown). Yes it's sort of cheating, but if the part
>> works
>> fine because all of the suppliers parts now yeild that fast due to an
>> improved
>> process well, it saves a few dollars / quid / drachma...
>>
>> And the 40MSPS is over full temp range, likely this is not a problem for
>> the DSO
>> 203 which has NO temp rating.
>>
>> Yes the "72MHz analog" channel rating makes no sense for something
>> sampling at
>> 72MSPS, Nyquist says you get at most 36 MHz bandwith.
>>
>
> That doesn't mean you couldn't use a sampler running at, say, 50 MSPS to
> look at a 110 MHz signal (something we actually do in a radio).
>
> There are lots of ADCs out there that have RF bandwidths of much more than
> the sample rate, intended for use in direct sampling receivers. What
> performance really depends on is how good the sample/hold or track/hold is
> and what the sample jitter is.  (and of course, whether there's a stage in
> front to keep unexpected signals from aliasing in)
>
> There are several ADCs out there that have GHz bandwidths and max sample
> rates in the 100MSPS range.
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Portable Digital 'scope (actual BW: 2 MHz)

[beale]

For what it's worth:

"The DSO203 is good to about 1 MHz to 2 MHz, after that signals get very 
rounded. This is caused by the analog path, not by the digital sample rate. "
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?127201-New-%28DSO203%29-portable-oscilloscope!/page2


>  ---Original Message---
>  From: Rob Kimberley 
>  To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
> 
>  Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope
>  Sent: 23 Feb '12 12:01
>  
>  I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
>  the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off topic,
>  but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in our
>  mutual hobby.
>  
>  Thanks for reading.
>  
>  Rob Kimberley
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  ___
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>  

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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defective connector)

[Joseph M Gwinn]

Björn,


time-nuts-boun...@febo.com wrote on 02/23/2012 04:53:06 PM:

> From: b...@lysator.liu.se
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Date: 02/23/2012 04:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)
> Sent by: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
>
> >
> > A possible mechanism occurs to me.  High-precision GPS is
> very vulnerable
> > to multipath errors.  A loos connector will have a
> significant reflection.
> > The reflected energy will propagate backwards, and be reflected off the
> > transmitter output discontinuity, the twice-reflected energy
> propagating
> > back to the receiver.  The original and the triple-transit
> echo will add
> > coherently (for the modulation, not the photons)  in the
> receiver.  This
> > is
> > a perfect multipath scenario.  How long must the cable be?
> Depends on the
> > relative strength of main signal and triple-transit echo.
>
> > Joe Gwinn
>
> Joe,
>
> High precision GPS receivers use various correlator schemes that try to
> minimize multipath. "Normal" GPS receivers are more vulnerable than
> geodetic quality receivers.
>
> http://webone.novatel.ca/assets/Documents/Papers/PAC.pdf

You are of course correct, but timing receivers may not go to such lengths
are are needed for geodetic receivers.  A lot of the magic of geodetic
receivers is in the choke-ring antenna, which ignores signals arriving from
too low an angle above the horizon.

In the Neutrino case, the multipath is built into the cable between antenna
and receiver, so the antenna cannot help.  But I will read the article,
which looks interesting.  Wonder if it would solve such a triple-transit
echo problem.

Joe
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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Jim Lux]

On 2/23/12 1:25 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:

FWIW Rigol pushes their 40MHz Analog Devices part to 100 MHz without any problem
(seen in eevblog teardown). Yes it's sort of cheating, but if the part works
fine because all of the suppliers parts now yeild that fast due to an improved
process well, it saves a few dollars / quid / drachma...

And the 40MSPS is over full temp range, likely this is not a problem for the DSO
203 which has NO temp rating.

Yes the "72MHz analog" channel rating makes no sense for something sampling at
72MSPS, Nyquist says you get at most 36 MHz bandwith.


That doesn't mean you couldn't use a sampler running at, say, 50 MSPS to 
look at a 110 MHz signal (something we actually do in a radio).


There are lots of ADCs out there that have RF bandwidths of much more 
than the sample rate, intended for use in direct sampling receivers. 
What performance really depends on is how good the sample/hold or 
track/hold is and what the sample jitter is.  (and of course, whether 
there's a stage in front to keep unexpected signals from aliasing in)


There are several ADCs out there that have GHz bandwidths and max sample 
rates in the 100MSPS range.




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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[bg]

>
> A possible mechanism occurs to me.  High-precision GPS is very vulnerable
> to multipath errors.  A loos connector will have a significant reflection.
> The reflected energy will propagate backwards, and be reflected off the
> transmitter output discontinuity, the twice-reflected energy propagating
> back to the receiver.  The original and the triple-transit echo will add
> coherently (for the modulation, not the photons)  in the receiver.  This
> is
> a perfect multipath scenario.  How long must the cable be?  Depends on the
> relative strength of main signal and triple-transit echo.

> Joe Gwinn

Joe,

High precision GPS receivers use various correlator schemes that try to
minimize multipath. "Normal" GPS receivers are more vulnerable than
geodetic quality receivers.

http://webone.novatel.ca/assets/Documents/Papers/PAC.pdf

--

   Björn




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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather on low power CPU/Linux?

[cfo]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:55:22 -0800, John Miles wrote:

> 
> If you use server.exe running on a PC motherboard (or port it to an
> embedded controller of some sort), you can log on to the Thunderbolt and
> control it from up to 8 different clients.  Depending on what the
> serial-to-Ethernet converter box costs, that could either be cheaper or
> more expensive, I suppose.  If the EPIA is no longer used for anything,
> perhaps you could repurpose it as a server?
> 
Correction ... The Mailserver is running of a 1.8Ghz VIA (blush)

And yes i could use the EPIA , but the Serial->Eth box just consumes 5w.
And allows for 4 channels

I still haven't seen the source of LH or serial.exe , any hints ?

Please point me to a zip or tgz , not a windows installer 

CFO



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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Azelio Boriani]

Yes, in my opinion the connectors are MCX and I totally agree with Attila
about the 20MHz limit. Nice toy to just take a look at low speed signals,
for example GPSDOs 10MHz and PPS, serial lines and so on.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:01:18 -
> "Rob Kimberley"  wrote:
>
> > I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone
> in
> > the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off
> topic,
> > but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in
> our
> > mutual hobby.
>
> It depends what you want to use it for. If you just want to have
> something protable that can show you roughly what's going on,
> then this might be a good thing. For anything else, especially
> measurements,
> i wouldnt trust it further than i can throw it.
>
> It's actually quite nice that they put the schematics online too,
> so their claims can be verified.
>
> First that jumps out is that they are using a AD9288-40 as ADC.
> Note the -40 there? It means it's an 40Msps ADC. Ie the maximum
> usable BW you can have is 20MHz (actually a bit lower). The analog
> circuitry doesn't seem too bright either, but i guess you should be
> able to get the 20MHz. I havent checked the exact circuitry so
> i cannot say whether the input circuit does filter at 20MHz. But
> as they claim to have 72MHz analog bandwidth, i would be very carefull
> about aliasing problems
>
> The input circuitry isn't very impressive either and has an undefined
> input capacitance (there is a trimmer there) somwhere between 5pF and 30pF
> (plus stray capacitances). I find it a it strange, that they disconnect one
> input of the frontend opamp... it might anything from going into saturation
> to start bouncing around...
> The analog switches are rather on the cheap side, nothing you'd expect
> in an DSO, but well.. for that price :-)
>
> Also notice that the connectors used look like SMB or MCX antenna
> connectors. Ie those would not be able to withstand many mating/break
> cycles.
>
> Overall, i'd say a good portable gauge, but not much more.
>
> For a more indepth analysis i'd have to take the schematics apart
> into a readable format...
>
>Attila Kinali
>
> --
> Why does it take years to find the answers to
> the questions one should have asked long ago?
>
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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Robert LaJeunesse]

FWIW Rigol pushes their 40MHz Analog Devices part to 100 MHz without any 
problem 
(seen in eevblog teardown). Yes it's sort of cheating, but if the part works 
fine because all of the suppliers parts now yeild that fast due to an improved 
process well, it saves a few dollars / quid / drachma...

And the 40MSPS is over full temp range, likely this is not a problem for the 
DSO 
203 which has NO temp rating.

Yes the "72MHz analog" channel rating makes no sense for something sampling at 
72MSPS, Nyquist says you get at most 36 MHz bandwith. I saw no anti-aliasing 
filter (well, C9 or C11 and C73 do some roll off) so who knows what the screen 
will actually show. Might make a decent 10MHz scope, at which point the use of 
FET solid-state relays doesn't concern me so much.

I was surprised that they use trimmers on the input to match the channels, 
that's a nice touch but does add some loading. The U1B op-amp is disconnected 
for higher input voltage ranges so it doesn't overload and distort the signal, 
which is processed by the U1A amp for those ranges. Perhaps not good that the 
U1B input is left effectively floating.

Bob LaJeunesse




From: Attila Kinali 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Sent: Thu, February 23, 2012 3:49:49 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:01:18 -
"Rob Kimberley"  wrote:

> I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
> the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off topic,
> but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in our
> mutual hobby.

It depends what you want to use it for. If you just want to have
something protable that can show you roughly what's going on,
then this might be a good thing. For anything else, especially measurements,
i wouldnt trust it further than i can throw it.

It's actually quite nice that they put the schematics online too,
so their claims can be verified.

First that jumps out is that they are using a AD9288-40 as ADC.
Note the -40 there? It means it's an 40Msps ADC. Ie the maximum
usable BW you can have is 20MHz (actually a bit lower). The analog
circuitry doesn't seem too bright either, but i guess you should be
able to get the 20MHz. I havent checked the exact circuitry so
i cannot say whether the input circuit does filter at 20MHz. But
as they claim to have 72MHz analog bandwidth, i would be very carefull
about aliasing problems

The input circuitry isn't very impressive either and has an undefined
input capacitance (there is a trimmer there) somwhere between 5pF and 30pF
(plus stray capacitances). I find it a it strange, that they disconnect one
input of the frontend opamp... it might anything from going into saturation
to start bouncing around... 
The analog switches are rather on the cheap side, nothing you'd expect
in an DSO, but well.. for that price :-)

Also notice that the connectors used look like SMB or MCX antenna
connectors. Ie those would not be able to withstand many mating/break
cycles.

Overall, i'd say a good portable gauge, but not much more.

For a more indepth analysis i'd have to take the schematics apart
into a readable format... 

            Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?
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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather on low power CPU/Linux?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

...bring up server.exe on a NET4501 running off a cheap flash card.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of John Miles
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:55 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather on low power CPU/Linux?

> This setup makes me able to connect LH from any machine to a TB.
> But only one active connection is allowed at a time.
> 
> So in practice i'm running the 2 x LH against the TB's on the mail-server.
> And "VNC to the mailserver" if i want to see the LH's.

If you use server.exe running on a PC motherboard (or port it to an embedded
controller of some sort), you can log on to the Thunderbolt and control it
from up to 8 different clients.  Depending on what the serial-to-Ethernet
converter box costs, that could either be cheaper or more expensive, I
suppose.  If the EPIA is no longer used for anything, perhaps you could
repurpose it as a server?

-- john


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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather on low power CPU/Linux?

[John Miles]

> This setup makes me able to connect LH from any machine to a TB.
> But only one active connection is allowed at a time.
> 
> So in practice i'm running the 2 x LH against the TB's on the mail-server.
> And "VNC to the mailserver" if i want to see the LH's.

If you use server.exe running on a PC motherboard (or port it to an embedded
controller of some sort), you can log on to the Thunderbolt and control it
from up to 8 different clients.  Depending on what the serial-to-Ethernet
converter box costs, that could either be cheaper or more expensive, I
suppose.  If the EPIA is no longer used for anything, perhaps you could
repurpose it as a server?

-- john


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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:01:18 -
"Rob Kimberley"  wrote:

> I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
> the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off topic,
> but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in our
> mutual hobby.

It depends what you want to use it for. If you just want to have
something protable that can show you roughly what's going on,
then this might be a good thing. For anything else, especially measurements,
i wouldnt trust it further than i can throw it.

It's actually quite nice that they put the schematics online too,
so their claims can be verified.

First that jumps out is that they are using a AD9288-40 as ADC.
Note the -40 there? It means it's an 40Msps ADC. Ie the maximum
usable BW you can have is 20MHz (actually a bit lower). The analog
circuitry doesn't seem too bright either, but i guess you should be
able to get the 20MHz. I havent checked the exact circuitry so
i cannot say whether the input circuit does filter at 20MHz. But
as they claim to have 72MHz analog bandwidth, i would be very carefull
about aliasing problems

The input circuitry isn't very impressive either and has an undefined
input capacitance (there is a trimmer there) somwhere between 5pF and 30pF
(plus stray capacitances). I find it a it strange, that they disconnect one
input of the frontend opamp... it might anything from going into saturation
to start bouncing around... 
The analog switches are rather on the cheap side, nothing you'd expect
in an DSO, but well.. for that price :-)

Also notice that the connectors used look like SMB or MCX antenna
connectors. Ie those would not be able to withstand many mating/break
cycles.

Overall, i'd say a good portable gauge, but not much more.

For a more indepth analysis i'd have to take the schematics apart
into a readable format... 

Attila Kinali

-- 
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Randy D. Hunt]

On 2/23/2012 12:32 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:

Looks interesting, but...

1) The probe connectors are not the usual BNC. Are they anything common?
2) No mating cables or connectors provided for channels 3,4, and function
generator output.
3) Function generator output will have significant DC bias and no anti-aliasing.
4) Does not appear to be able to save files to a flash drive.
5) When connected to a PC the PC's earthing is carried through to the probes.

No experience, sorry.

Bob LaJeunesse




From: Tom Knox
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thu, February 23, 2012 3:10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope


Two things that jumps out is they have the schematic on the listing and the
price.


Thomas Knox




From: robkimber...@btinternet.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:01:18 +
Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off topic,
but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in our
mutual hobby.

Thanks for reading.

Rob Kimberley

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Ch's C & D are on other side.
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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Bob Camp]

Hi

It looks like the connectors are MCX. It's a normal / low cost 50 ohm coax
connector. You see them on some GPSDO's. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Robert LaJeunesse
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:32 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

Looks interesting, but...

1) The probe connectors are not the usual BNC. Are they anything common?
2) No mating cables or connectors provided for channels 3,4, and function 
generator output.
3) Function generator output will have significant DC bias and no
anti-aliasing.
4) Does not appear to be able to save files to a flash drive.
5) When connected to a PC the PC's earthing is carried through to the
probes.

No experience, sorry.

Bob LaJeunesse




From: Tom Knox 
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thu, February 23, 2012 3:10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope


Two things that jumps out is they have the schematic on the listing and the 
price. 


Thomas Knox



> From: robkimber...@btinternet.com
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:01:18 +
> Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope
> 
> I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
> the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off
topic,
> but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in
our
> mutual hobby.
> 
> Thanks for reading.
> 
> Rob Kimberley
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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Robert LaJeunesse]

Looks interesting, but...

1) The probe connectors are not the usual BNC. Are they anything common?
2) No mating cables or connectors provided for channels 3,4, and function 
generator output.
3) Function generator output will have significant DC bias and no anti-aliasing.
4) Does not appear to be able to save files to a flash drive.
5) When connected to a PC the PC's earthing is carried through to the probes.

No experience, sorry.

Bob LaJeunesse




From: Tom Knox 
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thu, February 23, 2012 3:10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope


Two things that jumps out is they have the schematic on the listing and the 
price. 


Thomas Knox



> From: robkimber...@btinternet.com
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:01:18 +
> Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope
> 
> I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
> the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off topic,
> but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in our
> mutual hobby.
> 
> Thanks for reading.
> 
> Rob Kimberley
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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[paul]

Lots of info here http://www.seeedstudio.com/forum/index.php

On 23.02.2012 14:01, Rob Kimberley wrote:
I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if 
anyone in
the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off 
topic,
but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful 
in our

mutual hobby.



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Re: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Tom Knox]

Two things that jumps out is they have the schematic on the listing and the 
price. 

Thomas Knox



> From: robkimber...@btinternet.com
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:01:18 +
> Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope
> 
> I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
> the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off topic,
> but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in our
> mutual hobby.
> 
> Thanks for reading.
> 
> Rob Kimberley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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[time-nuts] OT - Portable Digital 'scope

[Rob Kimberley]

I'm looking at Item: 300658066641 on EBay, and wanted to know if anyone in
the group had any experience of this product. I know this is way off topic,
but as a group it's nice to know what's out there and possibly useful in our
mutual hobby.

Thanks for reading.

Rob Kimberley




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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Tom Holmes]

I'm sure are all aware that in the general perceptions of the world, there
are great scientific achievements and disastrous engineering failures. Never
the other way around.

Yeah, I'm an engineer.

Tom Holmes, N8ZM
Tipp City, OH
EM79


> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Tom Knox
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:47 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)
> 
> 
> It is hard to believe that they would go public with such earth shaking
results
> based on a single GPS timebase, but I have found it is easy to focus on
the test
> head and neglect the back end of an experiment. I must also admit it is
even
> worse science for someone sitting in Boulder Co like myself to second
guess
> these brilliant researchers without all the facts. In any case I am really
look
> forward to the cause of this mystery. I hope public will judge CERN on
their
> successes and understand that in science there is really no such thing as
a
> mistake if we learn from it.
> 
> Thomas Knox
> 
> 
> 
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > From: gw...@raytheon.com
> > Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:57:11 -0500
> > CC: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)
> >
> >
> > A possible mechanism occurs to me.  High-precision GPS is very
> > vulnerable to multipath errors.  A loos connector will have a
significant
> reflection.
> > The reflected energy will propagate backwards, and be reflected off
> > the transmitter output discontinuity, the twice-reflected energy
> > propagating back to the receiver.  The original and the triple-transit
> > echo will add coherently (for the modulation, not the photons)  in the
> > receiver.  This is a perfect multipath scenario.  How long must the
> > cable be?  Depends on the relative strength of main signal and
triple-transit
> echo.
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
> >
> >
> > time-nuts-boun...@febo.com wrote on 02/22/2012 06:31:54 PM:
> >
> > > From: Jim Palfreyman 
> > > To: rich...@karlquist.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> > > measurement 
> > > Date: 02/22/2012 06:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove
> > > connector) Sent by: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> > >
> > > Maybe the loose connector meant the clock at one end *never* synced
> > > with the GPS and just happened to be 60ns fast. Tighten the
> > > connecter, clock resyncs, problem solved.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > >
> > > On 23 February 2012 09:57, Rick Karlquist 
wrote:
> > >
> > > > Maybe they checked the connector by replacing the whole fiber
> > > > optic cable with a new one, and while doing that had the "oh sh.."
> > > > moment of realizing the length of the old one was 20 meters
> > > > different than it was supposed to be.
> > > > I think this sort of thing has happened to all of us with
> > > > significant experience.  Or maybe the cable was marked with an
> > > > incorrect length (not due to error by the experimenters) and they
> > > > forgot "trust but verify".  We've probably all gotten bit by that
> > > > one as well.
> > > >
> > > > Rick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> > > > > In message
> > > <9a458dba-3875-43b2-8383-5ca2f86be...@leapsecond.com>, "Tom
> > > > Van
> > > > > Baak
> > > > >  (lab)" writes:
> > > > >
> > > > >>Could be on the electrical side of the adapter, not the optical
> > > > >>side. It's not impossible to get 60 ns of phase or trigger error
> > > > >>with RF connectors.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't buy that explanation.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's very hard to get 60 ns *consistent* phase or trigger error,
> > > > > with any kind of connector, almost no matter how you go about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > 20m of extra fiber sounds *much* more plausible.
> > > > >
> > > > > Inventing an excuse about a loose connector to cover up the
> > > > > mistake sounds even more plausible.
> > > > >
> > > > > You really don't want to defend your phd dissertation, being
> > > > > known as the idiot who made a fool of both CERN and SanGrasso in
one
> go.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > > > > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > > > > FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > > > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> > > > > incompetence.
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go
> > > > > to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > >
> > > _

Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Tom Knox]

It is hard to believe that they would go public with such earth shaking results 
based on a single GPS timebase, but I have found it is easy to focus on the 
test head and neglect the back end of an experiment. I must also admit it is 
even worse science for someone sitting in Boulder Co like myself to second 
guess these brilliant researchers without all the facts. In any case I am 
really look forward to the cause of this mystery. I hope public will judge CERN 
on their successes and understand that in science there is really no such thing 
as a mistake if we learn from it.

Thomas Knox



> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> From: gw...@raytheon.com
> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:57:11 -0500
> CC: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)
> 
> 
> A possible mechanism occurs to me.  High-precision GPS is very vulnerable
> to multipath errors.  A loos connector will have a significant reflection.
> The reflected energy will propagate backwards, and be reflected off the
> transmitter output discontinuity, the twice-reflected energy propagating
> back to the receiver.  The original and the triple-transit echo will add
> coherently (for the modulation, not the photons)  in the receiver.  This is
> a perfect multipath scenario.  How long must the cable be?  Depends on the
> relative strength of main signal and triple-transit echo.
> 
> Joe Gwinn
> 
> 
> time-nuts-boun...@febo.com wrote on 02/22/2012 06:31:54 PM:
> 
> > From: Jim Palfreyman 
> > To: rich...@karlquist.com, Discussion of precise time and
> > frequency measurement 
> > Date: 02/22/2012 06:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)
> > Sent by: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> >
> > Maybe the loose connector meant the clock at one end *never* synced with
> > the GPS and just happened to be 60ns fast. Tighten the connecter, clock
> > resyncs, problem solved.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > On 23 February 2012 09:57, Rick Karlquist  wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe they checked the connector by replacing the whole
> > > fiber optic cable with a new one, and while doing that
> > > had the "oh sh.." moment of realizing the length of the
> > > old one was 20 meters different than it was supposed to be.
> > > I think this sort of thing has happened to all of us
> > > with significant experience.  Or maybe the cable was marked
> > > with an incorrect length (not due to error by the experimenters)
> > > and they forgot "trust but verify".  We've probably all
> > > gotten bit by that one as well.
> > >
> > > Rick
> > >
> > >
> > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> > > > In message
> > <9a458dba-3875-43b2-8383-5ca2f86be...@leapsecond.com>, "Tom
> > > Van
> > > > Baak
> > > >  (lab)" writes:
> > > >
> > > >>Could be on the electrical side of the adapter, not the optical
> > > >>side. It's not impossible to get 60 ns of phase or trigger error
> > > >>with RF connectors.
> > > >
> > > > I don't buy that explanation.
> > > >
> > > > It's very hard to get 60 ns *consistent* phase or trigger error,
> > > > with any kind of connector, almost no matter how you go about it.
> > > >
> > > > 20m of extra fiber sounds *much* more plausible.
> > > >
> > > > Inventing an excuse about a loose connector to cover up the mistake
> > > > sounds even more plausible.
> > > >
> > > > You really don't want to defend your phd dissertation, being known
> > > > as the idiot who made a fool of both CERN and SanGrasso in one go.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > > > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > > > FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> > > > incompetence.
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Joseph M Gwinn]

A possible mechanism occurs to me.  High-precision GPS is very vulnerable
to multipath errors.  A loos connector will have a significant reflection.
The reflected energy will propagate backwards, and be reflected off the
transmitter output discontinuity, the twice-reflected energy propagating
back to the receiver.  The original and the triple-transit echo will add
coherently (for the modulation, not the photons)  in the receiver.  This is
a perfect multipath scenario.  How long must the cable be?  Depends on the
relative strength of main signal and triple-transit echo.

Joe Gwinn


time-nuts-boun...@febo.com wrote on 02/22/2012 06:31:54 PM:

> From: Jim Palfreyman 
> To: rich...@karlquist.com, Discussion of precise time and
> frequency measurement 
> Date: 02/22/2012 06:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)
> Sent by: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
>
> Maybe the loose connector meant the clock at one end *never* synced with
> the GPS and just happened to be 60ns fast. Tighten the connecter, clock
> resyncs, problem solved.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On 23 February 2012 09:57, Rick Karlquist  wrote:
>
> > Maybe they checked the connector by replacing the whole
> > fiber optic cable with a new one, and while doing that
> > had the "oh sh.." moment of realizing the length of the
> > old one was 20 meters different than it was supposed to be.
> > I think this sort of thing has happened to all of us
> > with significant experience.  Or maybe the cable was marked
> > with an incorrect length (not due to error by the experimenters)
> > and they forgot "trust but verify".  We've probably all
> > gotten bit by that one as well.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >
> > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> > > In message
> <9a458dba-3875-43b2-8383-5ca2f86be...@leapsecond.com>, "Tom
> > Van
> > > Baak
> > >  (lab)" writes:
> > >
> > >>Could be on the electrical side of the adapter, not the optical
> > >>side. It's not impossible to get 60 ns of phase or trigger error
> > >>with RF connectors.
> > >
> > > I don't buy that explanation.
> > >
> > > It's very hard to get 60 ns *consistent* phase or trigger error,
> > > with any kind of connector, almost no matter how you go about it.
> > >
> > > 20m of extra fiber sounds *much* more plausible.
> > >
> > > Inventing an excuse about a loose connector to cover up the mistake
> > > sounds even more plausible.
> > >
> > > You really don't want to defend your phd dissertation, being known
> > > as the idiot who made a fool of both CERN and SanGrasso in one go.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > > FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> > > incompetence.
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] 5680 performance very first impressions, update

[Mark Spencer]

Update..   The unit has been running continuously since my last test.   I 
collected approx 10 hours of data last night and the Adev is slightly better 
now.   (Approx 1.5 thru 2.0 E-12 from 100 thru 400 seconds.   At 2,000 seconds 
the Adev is approx 2.6E-12)   

I also noticed that the unit is quite sensitive to mechanical shock.

That being said I still believe I got my moneys worth for $40.00

I've also characterized the performance of FTS1050 I am using as a reference 
and I am fairly certain that the performance of the FTS1050 is well into the 
13's at these time periods.


Regards
Mark Spencer



--- On Fri, 2/3/12, Mark Spencer  wrote:

> From: Mark Spencer 
> Subject: 5680 performance very first impressions.
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Received: Friday, February 3, 2012, 8:04 PM
> I've seen some comments and questions
> regarding the performance of the 5680 Rb's.
> 
>  Yesterday I took delivery of two
> 5680's.   In case anyone is interested, I'm
> seeing adev numbers in the 2 to 2.5 E-12 range from 80 thru
> 200 seconds.   The unit under test has been
> running for approx one hour and I let it warm up for 30
> minutes before collecting data.
> 
> The reference is an fts1050 and the data is being collected
> with an hp 5370B.
> 
> Not to bad for $40.00 IMHO.
> 
> Regards Mark Spencer

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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather on low power CPU/Linux?

[cfo]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 23:26:09 +0100, Achim Vollhardt wrote:

> Fellow Time-Nuts,
> I am trying to run LH on an Alix 3D3 single-board PC:
> 
> http://www.pcengines.ch/alix3d3.htm
> 
> Being only a 500 MHz Geode CPU, there is not much power to work with.
> Still, running Debian Linux with Wine allowed me to make LH work..
> 
> BUT: A single second tick takes about 3-4 seconds to show up.. needless
> to say that LH never catches up again and user interaction is painful at
> best.
> 
> I tried the /tw=50 setting for less CPU usage with little effect. Is
> there anything else I can do?

I have been running LH-3.0 Beta on a Via-Epia 5000
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813181025

It's a 533Mhz Via EDEN CPU with 512+128 Mb Ram , running Ubuntu 10.04LTS
I was using /vs /gb /TW=25

It was running ok on that machine.

I have later invested in a "4 channel Serial to Ethernet" converter , and 
am now running 2 LH's from a 1.8Mhz VIA with Ubuntu 8.04 (my mail server)

These parms are appended at the end of the LH command line :
/ip=aa.bb.cc.dd:4001/ /vs /gb /TW

The :4001 is the TCP port for serialport 1 on my converter.

This setup makes me able to connect LH from any machine to a TB.
But only one active connection is allowed at a time.

So in practice i'm running the 2 x LH against the TB's on the mail-server.
And "VNC to the mailserver" if i want to see the LH's.

But there were no problems using the old VIA-EPIA 5000 , i just have my 
mailserver on 24/7 , and didn't need the EPIA to be on when i got the 
Serial-to-Ether converter.


CFO


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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector) - new approach

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Back in the long ago, processing was expensive. Much of what we do goes back
to that era and paradigm. 

A bidirectional loop with smarts on both ends would make a lot of sense
today. Spend $5 on each end and you can be sure of what's going on. Yell to
higher authority if something didn't look right. If it's "your" connection
(as it is for most simple timing links) send lots of data and average to
improve the SNR. The added cost is nearly zero...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Lux
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:37 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

On 2/23/12 6:24 AM, Alberto di Bene wrote:
> On 2/23/2012 1:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
> I simply don't buy the story that tightening the connector makes
> a consistent 60 nanoseconds difference on a signal.
>
> I spoke with a physicist of Cern, friend of the leader of the team
that
> performed the Opera experiment.
> He told me that the badly seated connector caused the amplitude of the
> signal to be lower, and for this reason the trigger point, which was
> set at a specific level, was reached 60ns later.
> 73  Alberto  I2PHD



Darn those finite rise times
I've been bitten more than once by this very phenomenon (which I admit 
doesn't say a lot for me.. being bitten once is ok, but since I've had 
multiple bites...)

But this brings up an interesting time-nut problem for the hive mind..

If you had to design some scheme for interconnecting "boxes" and wanted 
to transmit an accurate time sync, what should it look like, so that 
you're insensitive to things like rise time.

(maybe this harkens back to the discussion about 10 MHz, why sine vs 
square wave distribution)

It has to be a single signal (maybe a differential pair), because 
otherwise, don't you have potential for skew between the multiple signals.

Zerocrossing sort of works, if you take only one direction, but does 
asymmetry of the waveform screw you up?  (e.g. what's "zero".. is it 
half way between peak values + and -?)

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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[David]

A transformer or differential signaling would also have the virtue of
allowing easy galvanic isolation to prevent ground loops.

Fiber optic and line receivers often set their switching threshold
using a positive and negative peak detector.  The same design works
very well for analog peak to peak automatic triggering in
oscilloscopes.

AN47-59, 50 MHz Adaptive Threshold Trigger Circuit:

http://www.linear.com/docs/4138

AN61-15, High Speed Adaptive Trigger Circuit:

http://www.linear.com/docs/4150

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 16:01:55 +0100, Azelio Boriani
 wrote:

>To square a sine 10MHz you can use a 4:1 transformer with the center tap:
>connect the tap to GND and use a differential line receiver (ADM485,
>MAX485) connected to the differential signal that comes out from the
>transformer. The input of the transformer receives the single ended sine
>10MHz.
>
>On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Azelio Boriani 
>wrote:
>
>> And by using a differential pair is like halving the rise time: when one
>> arm rises the other falls, effectively doubling the speed of the crossing
>> and the sharpening of the trigger event. Sort of auto_ schmitt_trigger...
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Azelio Boriani 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I recommend the differential pair: here the trigger have to sense the
>>> crossing of the two signals and this crossing is well definite.
>>>
>>>
 Darn those finite rise times
 I've been bitten more than once by this very phenomenon (which I admit
 doesn't say a lot for me.. being bitten once is ok, but since I've had
 multiple bites...)

 But this brings up an interesting time-nut problem for the hive mind..

 If you had to design some scheme for interconnecting "boxes" and wanted
 to transmit an accurate time sync, what should it look like, so that you're
 insensitive to things like rise time.

 (maybe this harkens back to the discussion about 10 MHz, why sine vs
 square wave distribution)

 It has to be a single signal (maybe a differential pair), because
 otherwise, don't you have potential for skew between the multiple signals.

 Zerocrossing sort of works, if you take only one direction, but does
 asymmetry of the waveform screw you up?  (e.g. what's "zero".. is it half
 way between peak values + and -?)

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Re: [time-nuts] CCD lock detection

[Tom Knox]

Thanks for your insights Bruce, I think I worded my thoughts badly. The fiber 
would be in addition to, not replacing the photocell. It would feed a CCD for 
display purposes only, although perhaps in the future if the concerns you 
brought up were addressed the CCD could also act as photocel. The question was 
would this display provide useful information beyond the traditional alpha 
numeric info.
Thomas Knox



> Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:29:48 +1300
> From: bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CCD lock detection
> 
> If and only if you want to reduce the SNR substantially.
> A typical glass fibre will capture insufficient light to be useful 
> compared to the standard arrangement using a photocell.
> Plastic fibres are not usable as the temperature in the vicinity of the 
> absorption cell is too high.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> Tom Knox wrote:
> > I was thinking you could view it through fiber
> >
> > Thomas Knox
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:19:57 +0100
> >> From: att...@kinali.ch
> >> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> >> Subject: [time-nuts] CCD lock detection (was: DIY Physics Article)
> >>
> >> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 09:14:34 -0700
> >> Tom Knox  wrote:
> >>
> >>  
> >>> Rather then a simple lock LED I think what would be interesting if 
> >>> possible
> >>> to place a CCD next to a Rubidium or Cesium cell to  view the luminance at
> >>> the hyperfine transiton. I am sure someone has done this but I have not
> >>> seen it.
> >>>
> >> I dont think this is easily possible. You have the CCD operating in a 
> >> strong
> >> electromagnetic field which will disturb it quite a bit. Though i think
> >> one could try to use one of the modern CCD like the OVM7690 (a tiny little
> >> thing of just 2.5x2.5x2.9mm^3 and quite cheap too!) and mount it in some
> >> empty corner that has little to no field.
> >>
> >> The other problem would be to see the luminance trough the strong
> >> background. IIRC the "modulation" strength of the absortion is 1-2%
> >> of the singal. So the luminance would be quite weak behind some strong
> >> background light as well.
> >>
> >> But it would be nevertheless a cool project :-)
> >>
> >>Attila Kinali
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Why does it take years to find the answers to
> >> the questions one should have asked long ago?
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to 
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>  
> > 
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Azelio Boriani]

To square a sine 10MHz you can use a 4:1 transformer with the center tap:
connect the tap to GND and use a differential line receiver (ADM485,
MAX485) connected to the differential signal that comes out from the
transformer. The input of the transformer receives the single ended sine
10MHz.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> And by using a differential pair is like halving the rise time: when one
> arm rises the other falls, effectively doubling the speed of the crossing
> and the sharpening of the trigger event. Sort of auto_ schmitt_trigger...
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Azelio Boriani 
> wrote:
>
>> I recommend the differential pair: here the trigger have to sense the
>> crossing of the two signals and this crossing is well definite.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/23/12 6:24 AM, Alberto di Bene wrote:
>>>
On 2/23/2012 1:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

 I simply don't buy the story that tightening the connector makes
 a consistent 60 nanoseconds difference on a signal.

I spoke with a physicist of Cern, friend of the leader of the team
 that
performed the Opera experiment.
He told me that the badly seated connector caused the amplitude of
 the
signal to be lower, and for this reason the trigger point, which was
set at a specific level, was reached 60ns later.
73  Alberto  I2PHD

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Darn those finite rise times
>>> I've been bitten more than once by this very phenomenon (which I admit
>>> doesn't say a lot for me.. being bitten once is ok, but since I've had
>>> multiple bites...)
>>>
>>> But this brings up an interesting time-nut problem for the hive mind..
>>>
>>> If you had to design some scheme for interconnecting "boxes" and wanted
>>> to transmit an accurate time sync, what should it look like, so that you're
>>> insensitive to things like rise time.
>>>
>>> (maybe this harkens back to the discussion about 10 MHz, why sine vs
>>> square wave distribution)
>>>
>>> It has to be a single signal (maybe a differential pair), because
>>> otherwise, don't you have potential for skew between the multiple signals.
>>>
>>> Zerocrossing sort of works, if you take only one direction, but does
>>> asymmetry of the waveform screw you up?  (e.g. what's "zero".. is it half
>>> way between peak values + and -?)
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Azelio Boriani]

And by using a differential pair is like halving the rise time: when one
arm rises the other falls, effectively doubling the speed of the crossing
and the sharpening of the trigger event. Sort of auto_ schmitt_trigger...

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> I recommend the differential pair: here the trigger have to sense the
> crossing of the two signals and this crossing is well definite.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:
>
>> On 2/23/12 6:24 AM, Alberto di Bene wrote:
>>
>>>On 2/23/2012 1:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>>>
>>> I simply don't buy the story that tightening the connector makes
>>> a consistent 60 nanoseconds difference on a signal.
>>>
>>>I spoke with a physicist of Cern, friend of the leader of the team
>>> that
>>>performed the Opera experiment.
>>>He told me that the badly seated connector caused the amplitude of the
>>>signal to be lower, and for this reason the trigger point, which was
>>>set at a specific level, was reached 60ns later.
>>>73  Alberto  I2PHD
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Darn those finite rise times
>> I've been bitten more than once by this very phenomenon (which I admit
>> doesn't say a lot for me.. being bitten once is ok, but since I've had
>> multiple bites...)
>>
>> But this brings up an interesting time-nut problem for the hive mind..
>>
>> If you had to design some scheme for interconnecting "boxes" and wanted
>> to transmit an accurate time sync, what should it look like, so that you're
>> insensitive to things like rise time.
>>
>> (maybe this harkens back to the discussion about 10 MHz, why sine vs
>> square wave distribution)
>>
>> It has to be a single signal (maybe a differential pair), because
>> otherwise, don't you have potential for skew between the multiple signals.
>>
>> Zerocrossing sort of works, if you take only one direction, but does
>> asymmetry of the waveform screw you up?  (e.g. what's "zero".. is it half
>> way between peak values + and -?)
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Magnus Danielson]

On 02/23/2012 03:36 PM, Jim Lux wrote:

On 2/23/12 6:24 AM, Alberto di Bene wrote:

On 2/23/2012 1:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

I simply don't buy the story that tightening the connector makes
a consistent 60 nanoseconds difference on a signal.

I spoke with a physicist of Cern, friend of the leader of the team that
performed the Opera experiment.
He told me that the badly seated connector caused the amplitude of the
signal to be lower, and for this reason the trigger point, which was
set at a specific level, was reached 60ns later.
73 Alberto I2PHD




Darn those finite rise times
I've been bitten more than once by this very phenomenon (which I admit
doesn't say a lot for me.. being bitten once is ok, but since I've had
multiple bites...)

But this brings up an interesting time-nut problem for the hive mind..

If you had to design some scheme for interconnecting "boxes" and wanted
to transmit an accurate time sync, what should it look like, so that
you're insensitive to things like rise time.

(maybe this harkens back to the discussion about 10 MHz, why sine vs
square wave distribution)

It has to be a single signal (maybe a differential pair), because
otherwise, don't you have potential for skew between the multiple signals.

Zerocrossing sort of works, if you take only one direction, but does
asymmetry of the waveform screw you up? (e.g. what's "zero".. is it half
way between peak values + and -?)


I think that there is a little bit different approach to all this. It 
raises the issue of fault detection, and over in the telecom world we 
spend quite a bit of time just approving the signal and monitoring it. 
It starts of with signal presence, and the Loss Of Signal defect. Then 
other qualities of the signal is monitored, different defects is 
correlated into a fault cause which then has a second level of 
persistance filtering before hitting alarms and logs.


The side effect of this is that you not only build monitoring support 
but also actively think about what is a good signal anyway, how can one 
handle variations of signal and where to you put your cut-off.


In this case, the measurement noise should have been significantly 
higher in the error state.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Azelio Boriani]

I recommend the differential pair: here the trigger have to sense the
crossing of the two signals and this crossing is well definite.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:

> On 2/23/12 6:24 AM, Alberto di Bene wrote:
>
>>On 2/23/2012 1:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>>
>> I simply don't buy the story that tightening the connector makes
>> a consistent 60 nanoseconds difference on a signal.
>>
>>I spoke with a physicist of Cern, friend of the leader of the team that
>>performed the Opera experiment.
>>He told me that the badly seated connector caused the amplitude of the
>>signal to be lower, and for this reason the trigger point, which was
>>set at a specific level, was reached 60ns later.
>>73  Alberto  I2PHD
>>
>
>
>
> Darn those finite rise times
> I've been bitten more than once by this very phenomenon (which I admit
> doesn't say a lot for me.. being bitten once is ok, but since I've had
> multiple bites...)
>
> But this brings up an interesting time-nut problem for the hive mind..
>
> If you had to design some scheme for interconnecting "boxes" and wanted to
> transmit an accurate time sync, what should it look like, so that you're
> insensitive to things like rise time.
>
> (maybe this harkens back to the discussion about 10 MHz, why sine vs
> square wave distribution)
>
> It has to be a single signal (maybe a differential pair), because
> otherwise, don't you have potential for skew between the multiple signals.
>
> Zerocrossing sort of works, if you take only one direction, but does
> asymmetry of the waveform screw you up?  (e.g. what's "zero".. is it half
> way between peak values + and -?)
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Arnold Tibus]

Am 23.02.2012 15:24, schrieb Alberto di Bene:

On 2/23/2012 1:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

I simply don't buy the story that tightening the connector makes
a consistent 60 nanoseconds difference on a signal.

I spoke with a physicist of Cern, friend of the leader of the team that
performed the Opera experiment.
He told me that the badly seated connector caused the amplitude of the
signal to be lower, and for this reason the trigger point, which was
set at a specific level, was reached 60ns later.
73  Alberto  I2PHD
What I do not understand after all, is it not possible to run an overall 
test for the measurement
loop by sending eg. a timestamp controlled signal including all the 
lines and connections etc. ?

Final end to end tests were for me always the most important procedures.

regards,
Arnold

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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Jim Lux]

On 2/23/12 6:24 AM, Alberto di Bene wrote:

On 2/23/2012 1:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

I simply don't buy the story that tightening the connector makes
a consistent 60 nanoseconds difference on a signal.

I spoke with a physicist of Cern, friend of the leader of the team that
performed the Opera experiment.
He told me that the badly seated connector caused the amplitude of the
signal to be lower, and for this reason the trigger point, which was
set at a specific level, was reached 60ns later.
73  Alberto  I2PHD




Darn those finite rise times
I've been bitten more than once by this very phenomenon (which I admit 
doesn't say a lot for me.. being bitten once is ok, but since I've had 
multiple bites...)


But this brings up an interesting time-nut problem for the hive mind..

If you had to design some scheme for interconnecting "boxes" and wanted 
to transmit an accurate time sync, what should it look like, so that 
you're insensitive to things like rise time.


(maybe this harkens back to the discussion about 10 MHz, why sine vs 
square wave distribution)


It has to be a single signal (maybe a differential pair), because 
otherwise, don't you have potential for skew between the multiple signals.


Zerocrossing sort of works, if you take only one direction, but does 
asymmetry of the waveform screw you up?  (e.g. what's "zero".. is it 
half way between peak values + and -?)


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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Alberto di Bene]

   On 2/23/2012 1:04 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

I simply don't buy the story that tightening the connector makes
a consistent 60 nanoseconds difference on a signal.

   I spoke with a physicist of Cern, friend of the leader of the team that
   performed the Opera experiment.
   He told me that the badly seated connector caused the amplitude of the
   signal to be lower, and for this reason the trigger point, which was
   set at a specific level, was reached 60ns later.
   73  Alberto  I2PHD
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Arnold Tibus]

Thanks Azelio,
so let's wait for domani ;-) ,

Arnold



Am 23.02.2012 15:12, schrieb Azelio Boriani:

Yes, this doesn't mean the results are necessarily wrong but only
questionable. Too bad we have to wait until May to know the "damage"
extension on the observed results. Here in Italy, unfortunately and as
usual, the announcement was distorted by our media today: now Einstein is
the winner as much as he was a looser in September. As usual they are very
fast in hanging or rising someone instead of shading the correct light on
science information.
And don't forget that nothing comes early here in Italy :)

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Arnold Tibus  wrote:


Just for completeliness I was pointed to this information:

http://www.nature.com/news/flaws-found-in-faster-than-light-neutrino-measurement-1.10099

Arnold



Am 23.02.2012 12:21, schrieb Azelio Boriani:


I have found the official CERN director's words: (from Marco URLs)
Ecco l’annuncio del Direttore del CERN:
The OPERA collaboration has informed its funding agencies and host
laboratories that it has identified two possible effects that could have
an
influence on its neutrino timing measurement. These both require further
tests with a short pulsed beam. If confirmed, one would increase the size
of the measured effect, the other would diminish it. The first possible
effect concerns an oscillator used to provide the time stamps for GPS
synchronizations. It could have led to an overestimate of the neutrino’s
time of flight. The second concerns the optical fibre connector that
brings
the external GPS signal to the OPERA master clock, which may not have been
functioning correctly when the measurements were taken. If this is the
case, it could have led to an underestimate of the time of flight of the
neutrinos. The potential extent of these two effects is being studied by
the OPERA collaboration. New measurements with short pulsed beams are
scheduled for May”.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Magnus Danielson<
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org>   wrote:

  Hi Javier,


On 02/23/2012 09:42 AM, Javier Serrano wrote:

  So please stay tuned for proper information. That's all I can say for

now.

  Which is more or less all you should say. I agree fully with you.

   From a scientific point of view, all we have heard is indications, but
it
needs to be verified.

Best Regards,
Magnus




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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Azelio Boriani]

Yes, this doesn't mean the results are necessarily wrong but only
questionable. Too bad we have to wait until May to know the "damage"
extension on the observed results. Here in Italy, unfortunately and as
usual, the announcement was distorted by our media today: now Einstein is
the winner as much as he was a looser in September. As usual they are very
fast in hanging or rising someone instead of shading the correct light on
science information.
And don't forget that nothing comes early here in Italy :)

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Arnold Tibus  wrote:

> Just for completeliness I was pointed to this information:
>
> http://www.nature.com/news/flaws-found-in-faster-than-light-neutrino-measurement-1.10099
>
> Arnold
>
>
>
> Am 23.02.2012 12:21, schrieb Azelio Boriani:
>
>> I have found the official CERN director's words: (from Marco URLs)
>> Ecco l’annuncio del Direttore del CERN:
>> The OPERA collaboration has informed its funding agencies and host
>> laboratories that it has identified two possible effects that could have
>> an
>> influence on its neutrino timing measurement. These both require further
>> tests with a short pulsed beam. If confirmed, one would increase the size
>> of the measured effect, the other would diminish it. The first possible
>> effect concerns an oscillator used to provide the time stamps for GPS
>> synchronizations. It could have led to an overestimate of the neutrino’s
>> time of flight. The second concerns the optical fibre connector that
>> brings
>> the external GPS signal to the OPERA master clock, which may not have been
>> functioning correctly when the measurements were taken. If this is the
>> case, it could have led to an underestimate of the time of flight of the
>> neutrinos. The potential extent of these two effects is being studied by
>> the OPERA collaboration. New measurements with short pulsed beams are
>> scheduled for May”.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Magnus Danielson<
>> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org>  wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Javier,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02/23/2012 09:42 AM, Javier Serrano wrote:
>>>
>>>  So please stay tuned for proper information. That's all I can say for
 now.

  Which is more or less all you should say. I agree fully with you.
>>>
>>>  From a scientific point of view, all we have heard is indications, but
>>> it
>>> needs to be verified.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Magnus
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Arnold Tibus]

Just for completeliness I was pointed to this information:
http://www.nature.com/news/flaws-found-in-faster-than-light-neutrino-measurement-1.10099

Arnold



Am 23.02.2012 12:21, schrieb Azelio Boriani:

I have found the official CERN director's words: (from Marco URLs)
Ecco l’annuncio del Direttore del CERN:
The OPERA collaboration has informed its funding agencies and host
laboratories that it has identified two possible effects that could have an
influence on its neutrino timing measurement. These both require further
tests with a short pulsed beam. If confirmed, one would increase the size
of the measured effect, the other would diminish it. The first possible
effect concerns an oscillator used to provide the time stamps for GPS
synchronizations. It could have led to an overestimate of the neutrino’s
time of flight. The second concerns the optical fibre connector that brings
the external GPS signal to the OPERA master clock, which may not have been
functioning correctly when the measurements were taken. If this is the
case, it could have led to an underestimate of the time of flight of the
neutrinos. The potential extent of these two effects is being studied by
the OPERA collaboration. New measurements with short pulsed beams are
scheduled for May”.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Magnus Danielson<
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org>  wrote:


Hi Javier,


On 02/23/2012 09:42 AM, Javier Serrano wrote:


So please stay tuned for proper information. That's all I can say for now.


Which is more or less all you should say. I agree fully with you.

 From a scientific point of view, all we have heard is indications, but it
needs to be verified.

Best Regards,
Magnus


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Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay

[J. L. Trantham]

The Ion Pump I is measured as a voltage across a resistor in the +3500 VDC
supply in the return path from ground.  This supply is capable of providing
only a small amount of current and will collapse to zero volts if
overloaded.  Likewise, it can fail for a number of reasons, due primarily to
it's age.  It can be repaired by opening it using a 'torch' to melt the
solder seal at the bottom.  Keep the heat low, along the bottom.  The 'lip'
is only about 1/8th of an inch or so.

I have had issues as you are referring to for a number of reasons:

1.  A CS tube with a short from the +3500 to ground.  Fixed by using the
+3500 VDC supply to charge a 4 uF 4 KV capacitor then 'discharging' the
capacitor through the CS tube's +3500 connection to ground (be careful if
you wind up trying this).
2.  Failed +3500 VDC supplies for a number of reasons including an internal
'shunt' (not quite a 'short' but becomes as much at high voltage) of the HV
lead to ground, shorted internal electrolytic on the +18 VDC supply
Line, and open HV diodes.

The unit I recently purchased has an FTS tube, known to, typically, have a
very good 'vacuum' and low Ion Pump I.  It is functioning because, when the
CS Oven turns on, the Beam I goes up, slowly, as it should.  In addition, at
initial turn on, the Ion Pump I went off scale, as it typically does when
first turned on after a long period of inactivity, then fairly promptly (30
to 60 minutes) 'pumped down'.

These units are fun to play with but are terribly addicting.  Be careful.
You might wind up with several.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Azelio Boriani
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:57 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay


The ion pump current at 0 is not good. At work they bought an FTS4065B
without telling me before: instead of a very old FTS4065, there is an
already working PRS50. Anyway if the ion currect is 0 check the HV generator
first. Check this http://www.ke5fx.com/cs.htm on how to try to reactivate
the ion pump using an external HV power supply.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 5:28 AM, J. L. Trantham  wrote:

> I think so. But time will tell.
>
> I also have some units with bad tubes and this looks promising.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] 
> On Behalf Of Tom Knox
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:20 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
>
>
> It sounds like you hit a home run Joe. If the tube is good the rest 
> should be easy. There are quite a few clean clocks with only a bad 
> tube.
>
> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> > From: jlt...@att.net
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:15:59 -0600
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
> >
> > I purchased a 5061A with all parts installed and with the FTS tube.  
> > The 5061B with the FTS tube was listed later and sold.
> >
> > The unit seems to operate with good Beam I, good 2nd Harmonic, and 
> > almost zero Ion Pump I but it will not 'lock'.  I have not had a 
> > chance to look into it yet but I suspect an issue with the A7 or the 
> > A8 assemblies.
> >
> > If anyone is interested, I'll keep you informed.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] 
> > On Behalf Of Dave Welch
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:09 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
> >
> > Hi all.
> > I PURCHASED THE FTS UNITS AND ONE OF THE HP5061a. Havent had time to 
> > look at them but one of the fts powers up but i dont have any docs 
> > to figure
> out
> > what os wrong..it says ion current is 0.
> > Should this be that low??
> > On Feb 22, 2012 3:21 PM, "Tom Knox"  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The same seller also had some 5061B's and FTS 4065A's as well, all 
> > > were untested or in various states of disrepair. I was tempted on 
> > > a few the
> had
> > > missing parts not related to the Tube. Did anyone purchase any of
> these?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas Knox
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:17:42 -0500
> > > > From: bow...@gmail.com
> > > > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > Subject: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
> > > >
> > > > There are 3 5061's listed on ebay at the moment. Anyone know 
> > > > anything
> > > about
> > > > them?
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > 

Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Azelio Boriani]

I have found the official CERN director's words: (from Marco URLs)
Ecco l’annuncio del Direttore del CERN:
The OPERA collaboration has informed its funding agencies and host
laboratories that it has identified two possible effects that could have an
influence on its neutrino timing measurement. These both require further
tests with a short pulsed beam. If confirmed, one would increase the size
of the measured effect, the other would diminish it. The first possible
effect concerns an oscillator used to provide the time stamps for GPS
synchronizations. It could have led to an overestimate of the neutrino’s
time of flight. The second concerns the optical fibre connector that brings
the external GPS signal to the OPERA master clock, which may not have been
functioning correctly when the measurements were taken. If this is the
case, it could have led to an underestimate of the time of flight of the
neutrinos. The potential extent of these two effects is being studied by
the OPERA collaboration. New measurements with short pulsed beams are
scheduled for May”.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Magnus Danielson <
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> Hi Javier,
>
>
> On 02/23/2012 09:42 AM, Javier Serrano wrote:
>
>> So please stay tuned for proper information. That's all I can say for now.
>>
>
> Which is more or less all you should say. I agree fully with you.
>
> From a scientific point of view, all we have heard is indications, but it
> needs to be verified.
>
> Best Regards,
> Magnus
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay

[Azelio Boriani]

The ion pump current at 0 is not good. At work they bought an FTS4065B
without telling me before: instead of a very old FTS4065, there is an
already working PRS50. Anyway if the ion currect is 0 check the HV
generator first. Check this http://www.ke5fx.com/cs.htm on how to try to
reactivate the ion pump using an external HV power supply.

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 5:28 AM, J. L. Trantham  wrote:

> I think so. But time will tell.
>
> I also have some units with bad tubes and this looks promising.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Tom Knox
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:20 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
>
>
> It sounds like you hit a home run Joe. If the tube is good the rest should
> be easy. There are quite a few clean clocks with only a bad tube.
>
> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> > From: jlt...@att.net
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:15:59 -0600
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
> >
> > I purchased a 5061A with all parts installed and with the FTS tube.  The
> > 5061B with the FTS tube was listed later and sold.
> >
> > The unit seems to operate with good Beam I, good 2nd Harmonic, and almost
> > zero Ion Pump I but it will not 'lock'.  I have not had a chance to look
> > into it yet but I suspect an issue with the A7 or the A8 assemblies.
> >
> > If anyone is interested, I'll keep you informed.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> > Behalf Of Dave Welch
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:09 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
> >
> > Hi all.
> > I PURCHASED THE FTS UNITS AND ONE OF THE HP5061a. Havent had time to look
> > at them but one of the fts powers up but i dont have any docs to figure
> out
> > what os wrong..it says ion current is 0.
> > Should this be that low??
> > On Feb 22, 2012 3:21 PM, "Tom Knox"  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The same seller also had some 5061B's and FTS 4065A's as well, all were
> > > untested or in various states of disrepair. I was tempted on a few the
> had
> > > missing parts not related to the Tube. Did anyone purchase any of
> these?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thomas Knox
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:17:42 -0500
> > > > From: bow...@gmail.com
> > > > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > Subject: [time-nuts] 5061's on ebay
> > > >
> > > > There are 3 5061's listed on ebay at the moment. Anyone know anything
> > > about
> > > > them?
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] CCD lock detection

[Bruce Griffiths]

If and only if you want to reduce the SNR substantially.
A typical glass fibre will capture insufficient light to be useful 
compared to the standard arrangement using a photocell.
Plastic fibres are not usable as the temperature in the vicinity of the 
absorption cell is too high.


Bruce

Tom Knox wrote:

I was thinking you could view it through fiber

Thomas Knox



   

Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 19:19:57 +0100
From: att...@kinali.ch
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] CCD lock detection (was: DIY Physics Article)

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 09:14:34 -0700
Tom Knox  wrote:

 

Rather then a simple lock LED I think what would be interesting if possible
to place a CCD next to a Rubidium or Cesium cell to  view the luminance at
the hyperfine transiton. I am sure someone has done this but I have not
seen it.
   

I dont think this is easily possible. You have the CCD operating in a strong
electromagnetic field which will disturb it quite a bit. Though i think
one could try to use one of the modern CCD like the OVM7690 (a tiny little
thing of just 2.5x2.5x2.9mm^3 and quite cheap too!) and mount it in some
empty corner that has little to no field.

The other problem would be to see the luminance trough the strong
background. IIRC the "modulation" strength of the absortion is 1-2%
of the singal. So the luminance would be quite weak behind some strong
background light as well.

But it would be nevertheless a cool project :-)

Attila Kinali

--
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Javier,

On 02/23/2012 09:42 AM, Javier Serrano wrote:

So please stay tuned for proper information. That's all I can say for now.


Which is more or less all you should say. I agree fully with you.

From a scientific point of view, all we have heard is indications, but 
it needs to be verified.


Best Regards,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defectove connector)

[Javier Serrano]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 11:26 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 20m of extra fiber sounds *much* more plausible.
>
> Inventing an excuse about a loose connector to cover up the mistake
> sounds even more plausible.
>
> You really don't want to defend your phd dissertation, being known
> as the idiot who made a fool of both CERN and SanGrasso in one go.

PHK come on, you can do much better than this :)

I am sorry guys. I really owe this list a lot of knowledge and I try
to give back every time I have an opportunity, but I will not be able
to react to all suppositions in real-time. Also I am not even a
completely reliable source of information myself because these things
have been found in OPERA, and I only know of them indirectly. I only
have two points:

- Delays in fiber connections can be modified because of changes in
input power (due to improper screwing), which turn into delay changes
via the input capacitance of the photo-diode. This only has an effect
on the final result if the calibration was conducted with the proper
screwing (sure) and the experiment with improper screwing (not sure).
- OPERA and CERN have followed the scientific method in an exemplary
way all throughout the process. The published information is the
result of a leak and has two problems: a) it's incomplete and b) it's
too soon to publish anything meaningful, it would have been much
better to study the effects of the two issues found, quantify them and
then go public. Maybe there is virtually no effect on the final
result, who knows.

So please stay tuned for proper information. That's all I can say for now.

Cheers,

Javier

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